Animal Companion and Animal domain question


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

If you have a character that starts with an animal companion and gets access to a domain, dose that character at level 4 get a second animal companion?? i.e inquisitor/sacred-huntsmaster taking the animal domain I cant seem to find an answer for this any where


bump...


Generally speaking levels in classes that provide animal companions stack to provide a total level to the animal companion.


i know that but this is a power from the domain and the character would already have a AC would the power from the animal domain be useless for a character that already have a AC


I see now. Yes, you could select the animal domain for an animal companion and play a sacred huntmaster. Both of which would normally grant an animal companion on their own. As for what happens...it's unclear.

As a GM I would tell you that you just shouldn't take the animal domain.


this is why im looking for any clarification on this for PFS, since i and other GM's in home tables would allow a second AC...but for pfs thats the rub

The Exchange

Since length of turns is a consideration in PFS, if I were you I'd just take the stronger companion instead of going for multiples. You might be in your rights to have a second one - I'd have to survey the rules closely - but in general I'd go with whatever makes my turns go quicker. The Man-of-Many-Minis was always a figure of dread to RPGA DMs and I can't imagine it's much better for PFS GMs.


I believe, if I remember correctly, PFS only allows one animal companion/familiar/whatever at a time, at least only one being active, even if you would by rights get multiples. I don't have a citation on that, but I'm pretty sure it's the case.


i know there is archetypes that allow multi AC at once this is i am mainly looking to take this as it works fluff wise with my character. i just need to find out if the level 4 power from the domain is useless to me as with the inquisitor/sacred-huntsmaster already get a AC at level 1

Lincoln Hills wrote:
Since length of turns is a consideration in PFS, if I were you I'd just take the stronger companion instead of going for multiples. You might be in your rights to have a second one - I'd have to survey the rules closely - but in general I'd go with whatever makes my turns go quicker. The Man-of-Many-Minis was always a figure of dread to RPGA DMs and I can't imagine it's much better for PFS GMs.

as is i am manly limited to PBP so the length of a turn is N/A to me or the people i game with, but i get what your saying

Grand Lodge

Rennaivx wrote:
I believe, if I remember correctly, PFS only allows one animal companion/familiar/whatever at a time, at least only one being active, even if you would by rights get multiples. I don't have a citation on that, but I'm pretty sure it's the case.
FAQ, PFS wrote:


How many animals can I have at any given time?
During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all. If you have so many noncombat animals that their presence is slowing a session down, the GM has the right to ask you to select one noncombat animal and leave the rest behind. A summoner's eidolon is considered an animal companion for the purposes of counting combat and noncombat animals. If you have more than one class-granted animal companion (or eidolon), you must choose which will be considered the combat animal at the start of the scenario. In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

See the Divine Hunter archetype for Hunter for what happens when an AC granting class gains a domain. I don't see why it would not work for Domain granting classes who gain a AC as a separate class feature.

I don't find an official ruling on this. However, archetypes that grant multiple ACs do so by dividing up your class levels. I don't think taking the Animal Domain is meant to grant you two companions, only only slightly lower than your level, otherwise they wouldn't have taken it into account with Divine Hunter.


ok so i have looked it over and this

If the divine hunter selects the animal domain, she does not gain a second animal companion upon reaching an effective cleric level of 4th. When the divine hunter would gain that ability, her animal companion instead gains two ability score increases (gaining +1 to two different ability scores or +2 to one ability score). If her animal companion dies or is released, when she gains a new one, it benefits from this ability score increase.

so then would it be safe for me to treat it the same for a inquisitor {sacred huntsmaster} with the animal domain or not?

this is a good way to handle it but i dont know how i should treat this for PFS...i think is should be to a lesser bonus as maybe just a plus one? hopefully someone can find an official ruling on this i my google fu is exhausted...


^

The Exchange

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.
Riuk wrote:

f the divine hunter selects the animal domain, she does not gain a second animal companion upon reaching an effective cleric level of 4th. When the divine hunter would gain that ability, her animal companion instead gains two ability score increases (gaining +1 to two different ability scores or +2 to one ability score). If her animal companion dies or is released, when she gains a new one, it benefits from this ability score increase.

so then would it be safe for me to treat it the same for a inquisitor {sacred huntsmaster} with the animal domain or not?

this is a good way to handle it but i dont know how i should treat this for PFS...i think is should be to a lesser bonus as maybe just a plus one?

Riuk, the problem you're running into here is conflicting rules between what's written in a couple places, various Paizo staff posts, and PFS campaign-specific rules.

You are going to get table variation because of this. At this time, there is no 100% argument-proof answer, so the DM has to rule it.
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THAT BEING SAID... in PFS, the strongest position comes from the most recent FAQ's posted (or errata released) at any given time, which to my knowledge is still the following (paraphrased):

* You may only have 1 animal companion per character.

* Any PFS legal archetypes that allow multiple animal companions (like Huntmaster Cavalier, the various "pack master" types of Ranger/Druid/Hunter, etc) have been modified (or just nerfed) to only allow 1.

* ALL "Effective Druid Levels" STACK --IF-- the Animal Companion or Mount "type" is available on --ALL-- lists involved. Any list that doesn't include the animal you've chosen, well you lose those levels.

* No matter what mechanics you are able to min max together, there is a hard limit of "PC Character level +1" for your Animal Companion's hit dice (NOTE: This is -Not- your Effective Druid Level, but rather the Hit Dice of the animal that results from your EDL on the Animal Companion table)
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EXAMPLE CASES:
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A) You have Emissary Cavalier 4 / Oracle (Nature Mystery) 6 with the Divine Mount revelation (or whatever it's called).

You choose a Camel ("watch out, they spit!").

In this simple case, your EDL stacks to 7 because Camel is on both lists. NOTE HOWEVER that you would have the Cavalier version of the Animal Companion (it loses Share Spells, if it dies and you get a new one you have to spend time to train it some, etc) combined with the Nature mystery version (A nice high Intelligence of 6).
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B) You have a Huntmaster Cavalier 4 / Oracle (Lunar Mystery) 6 with the Primal Companion revelation.

No matter what you choose, you have a problem here.

The lists do not include any common options. Huntmaster Cavalier can only take a Bird or a Dog. However, Lunar mystery's Primal Companion list does not allow either of those.

Your EDL will not stack, you will have either an EDL of 4 or an EDL of 6, not 10.
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C) You have a Hunter 5 / Paladin 5 / Mammoth Rider 2

This one is interesting because Mammoth Rider animal companion list -replaces and supercedes- (all of) your previous "lists" of options for Animal Companions. But given PFS strict RAW adherence, your previous lists would all have to have a common option for those levels to stack with each other before the Mammoth Rider feature kicks in.

Not a problem in this specific case: assuming you're medium sized PC the Paladin 5 can take a Horse, Hunter can also take a Horse, so the levels stack and then Mammoth Rider kicks in with Huge Steed or whatever and you pick a new animal from it's replacement list (how about a Huge Sized Tiger a'la 10,000 BC?? Sabretoothed death the size of an Allosaurus...)

IF, however, you had gone with classes that do not share a list (like Oracle (Lunar) 5 and Paladin 5 on a medium sized PC), you would have a problem here and you'd lose 5 EDL because Mammoth Rider would only stack on one of those, not both.
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D) You have a Zen Archer 4 / Divine Hunter 6 / Evangelist of Erastil 10

ALSO: you took Nature Soul at 1st level, and Animal Ally at 4th level (using Ultimate Campaign retraining rules to retrain your 3rd level feat the moment you qualified for Animal Ally, which is when you hit 4th.)

You choose an animal that falls on the Animal Ally list (say a Wolf, or a Bird, etc.)

...now this one gets complicated and causes arguments, because RAW you end up with an EDL of 20 way earlier than 20th, and max out your Animal Companion (16 Hit Dice) at 15th character level. It could even have happened earlier, if it wasn't for the PFS ruling that Animal Companions can -never- have more than 1 HD above their PC "owner's" total Character level, as mentioned above.

The way this happens is that Animal Ally grants an Animal Companion from a limited list of options, based on your Total Character Level -3. It also explicitly says that the levels it grants -stacks- with levels granted from any classes that have an Animal Companion, Mount or equivalent class feature... but the thing is those classes features are based on their Class levels, while this feat is based on total Character level... see where this is going?

Zen Archer 4, with that feat, equals EDL 1. Throw in Div Hunter 6?? Now it's total Character level 10-3, which is an EDL of 7.... PLUS STACKING WITH... the Div Hunter 6 EDL of 6.... total EDL of 13. That's an 11 HD Animal Companion, as if you were a 13th level druid, but you are only a 10th level character. You are legally "double dipping" your Hunter levels for EDL.

Arguments about Rules-As-Intended carry little weight in PFS, and this -is- the RAW as modified by PFS campaign rulings at this time, so, yes it's possible to have an animal companion with more HD than you have levels. There's a couple ways to pull this off, this is just 1 of them (though options for this are much more limited now since the ARG errata came out nerfing the Nature Oracle and Lunar Oracle pathways.)

Incidentally, this is actually one framework for an amazing Zen Archer build that hits a very high Tier 3 level of performance and utility in the game.
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E) You are playing a Half-Orc Bloodrider Bloodrager and you take the Beastrider feat. OR SIMILARLY, you are playing a Paladin, Ranger or Cavalier and you take the Monstrous Mount feat. You also have levels of Hunter, Druid or some other class that grants an EDL.

This situation is a pain in the @ss, because some DMs will argue that Beastrider and/or Monstrous Mount feats only modify -ONE- of your class lists, not both. Other DM's will say that the feat modifies all of your AC lists... and that even if you had 8 different classes with the Animal Companion or Mount feature, once you took Beastrider you have added Rhinoceros and friends to all of your lists (or Griffons and Worgs and stuff with Monstrous Mount).

At this current time I have not seen any official ruling on this case from the PFS head honchos, big kahunas or grand poona's, so... it's Table Variation all the way and YMMV.

The safest play in PFS however, as usual, is to assume the most limiting interpretation when the RAW is anything other than 100% crystal clear, and that basically means that Monstrous Mount and/or Beastrider are really only good if you have a single EDL granting class, or, if you have more than one EDL granting classes but all of them except for at most 1 of them offers the same choices in it's/their original list as the Beastrider feat (e.g. Druid allows Rhinocerous, so, a Cavalier 6 / Druid 6 with the Beastrider feat will be able to have a full EDL Rhino. Which is f_ckin' awesome by the way... Rhino's have powerful charge and with an Int of 3 can eventually take Minotaur's Charge to wreck shop!! Similarly, Druid 4 / Hunter 4 / Paladin 5 with Beastrider could have a full EDL Rhino because both Druid and Hunter have Rhino on their list so only Paladin needs the feat... etc.)
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OK so, your proposed scenario of Sacred Huntmaster with Animal Domain... for a PFS game the most recent FAQ's and staff answers would actually indicated Case D above... the over-levelled Animal Companion, because the Animal Domain granted EDL would -stack- with the Sacred Huntmaster's normal animal companion class feature (they are 2 different sources, and there is ZERO language under Sacred Huntsman invoking the alternate rules for the very specific case of the Divine Hunter archetype.)

However... if you then multi-classed your Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor with a Divine Hunter of level 3 or higher, you would immediately be subject to the Divine Hunter's alternate rules and lose all those extra "double-dipped" EDL in exchange for 2 stat points to assign. Why? Because Inquisitors who multi-class with Cleric -MUST- take one of the Cleric's selected Domains as their Inquisitor Domain, and, the Inquisitor Domain / Cleric Domain levels stack. And, Divine Hunter specifically says you get a Cleric domain, and count as a Cleric (level -2). Ain't that a b!tch?? So don't multi-class these... (or, do it if you want to "fix" the over-leveling down to normal, deliberately).

Hope this helps.

-Gohaken

PS. This thread probably belongs in the PFS forums since that's what you're actually asking about, but hey maybe it will be helpful to some non-PFS people too.

The Exchange

TO LATE EDIT: No idea why I said Cavalier 4 & Oracle 6 would "stack to 7", I meant to say 10 not 7. Pardon my brain f_rt.


Rennaivx wrote:
I believe, if I remember correctly, PFS only allows one animal companion/familiar/whatever at a time, at least only one being active, even if you would by rights get multiples. I don't have a citation on that, but I'm pretty sure it's the case.

I remember this being a rule too, but I can't find it anymore. Maybe it's not a rule anymore?

Scarab Sages

How many animals can I have at any given time?

During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all. If you have so many noncombat animals that their presence is slowing a session down, the GM has the right to ask you to select one noncombat animal and leave the rest behind. A summoner's eidolon is considered an animal companion for the purposes of counting combat and noncombat animals. If you have more than one class-granted animal companion (or eidolon), you must choose which will be considered the combat animal at the start of the scenario. In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.


Ty gohaken that was rely informative

I do know that you can only have 1 combat pet now, so with that in mind then would the level 4 power from the animal domain be of no use for a inquisitor sacred huntsmaster...

The Exchange

Riuk wrote:

Ty gohaken that was rely informative

I do know that you can only have 1 combat pet now, so with that in mind then would the level 4 power from the animal domain be of no use for a inquisitor sacred huntsmaster...

Ehh... the whole point of what I was saying is that RAW + Current FAQ & Dev Posts supports the ruling for "Over-levelling" your animal companion (capped at a maximum EDL of whatever would grant your AC a HD of PC Character Level +1.)

You may get some table variation but that's current RAW + official online stuff. Who knows when it will change...

If you want to play it safe, dip Hunter (Divine Hunter Archtype) to level 3, to count as having a Cleric Domain (also Animal or Feather or Fur, whichever version you took in the Inquisitor) and then your "domain level" will stack as if from 1 source... and for Divine Hunter that means when you hit "domain level" 4, you will get the +1 to two stats from the Hunter archtype specific rules. No over-levelling to cause drama. Then just go back to Inqusitor or whatever.

Sacred Huntmaster 2 / Divine Hunter 4 / Sacred Huntmaster 3 up to 8 is actually pretty decent for an "optimized light" build, especially if you go Archery route and take Fate's Favored to buff your Divine Favor spells. Assuming Animal domain you end up with full normal level AC and get +1 to two of it's Stats (will happen at Inquisitor 2 / Hunter 4.). You will add Wisdom to a lot of stuff as well as use it for both spell lists, so, seriously consider Evangelist of Erastil as a Prestige Class (again assuming Archery) maybe starting at character level 6 or 7.

-Goh

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