I'll start off saying that I love the Bolt Ace; I think it's a really awesome archetype on a class that I'm not all that interested in. The fine folks at Paizo just released the errata for the ACG and Bolt Ace is fixed, yay!
I'm looking at saving up some GM credits to work on a Bolt Ace, but I am on the fence as to which crossbow to use! I love the concept of duel-wielding hand crossbow (Yes, D3 Demon Hunter I'm looking at you...), but I have a feeling that by the time I get Inexplicable Reload and Crossbow Mastery, even with Endless Ammunition enchantment I'm going to run into issues with needing a free hand to reload with some GMs.
That being said, I figure the best one to start off with would be a Heavy Repeating Crossbow. You get a masterwork one for free at 1st level which covers the cost and helps avoid having to pick up Rapid Reload at 1st level; allows me to cover the basics of Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Given that Bolt Aces are proficient with all crossbows, I think it might be really interesting to pick up the different types of utility crossbows such as the Launching Crossbow and Crank crossbows to keep around for those odd little circumstances that one might run into with PFS.
What would be some suggestions from the peanut gallery?
*EDIT*
I would love to find a way to make a hand crossbow theme work, so if you guys have some suggestions for that... I'm all ears. I don't so much mind the "unoptimal" damage/range of the hand xbow and would actually like to take advantage of the attack/damage bonus granted via Point-Blank Shot.
The Minotaur Double Crossbow is PFS legal and far superior to the APG one.
For hand crossbows, 2 levels of alchemist will get you an extra arm (and Dex mutagen, self-buffs and wands). Or Juggler Bard, if you want to be less freaky. Still, 2 levels is a big investment.
can some one give me a link to the errata because i can not find if at all for some reason
It's in a PDF you can download here. Marked with big red letters, you can't miss it.
Don't get too excited, the Bolt Ace is arguably the only good change in the document.
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Don't get too excited, the Bolt Ace is arguably the only good change in the document.
The Bolt Ace is the only thing I really care about from that book, and it doesn't look like Investigator was ruined, so overall while it was a loss for the team, it was a win in my book. Trust me, I'm cringing at a lot of these changes. Paizo needs to learn balance, this errata for the most part was a tragedy. RIP Divine Protection.
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Okay, so here's my Bolt Ace build. I've never messed with the Gunslinger or any of the crossbow stuff, so I trust you folks who are more experienced with those can catch me if I missed anything. :-)
I've been wanting to build a character with the <Measured Response> feat for a while, and the newly-functioning Bolt Ace seemed like a good excuse for an enforcer-of-Abadar type character.
Tip Allen, Abadar's Artillery
Human Bolt Ace Gunslinger 10/Divine Hunter Paladin 1. Devotee of Abadar, member of the Silver Crusade.
Str 13 Dex 19 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 15 Cha 7
Divine Hunter @ Lvl 2, everything else Bolt Ace
01 Indomitable Faith, Reactionary; (b) Measured Response, Point-Blank Shot
02 (b) Precise Shot
03 Rapid Shot
04 +1 Dex [= 20]
05 (b) Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
07 Manyshot
08 +1 Wis [= 16]
09 (b) Improved Critical, Clustered Shots
10 —
11 Improved Precise Shot
Note: Weapon Choice — Figure I'll grab a Repeating Heavy Crossbow with Crossbow Maven, and then eventually invest in and specialize in a Light Crossbow (so that I can full attack with it before level 11 or level 12).
Note: Deadly Aim — If I were to swap out Measured Response (which doesn't affect damage) for Deadly Aim, damage remains the same (to be precise, it drops insignificantly, by about 0.5 dpr).
I agree. In general, the ACG errata really butchered a lot of really amazing things from that book. Slashing Grace is just... ugh... but that's a tale for another thread.
I like the suggestion about picking up a water crossbow! In regards to the Minotaur Double Xbow... where can you find the cost/damage? I know the info about it is in the minotaur monster entry, but I cannot find it on a table.
Joe, I like the layout you have there, but I gotta ask. Why the strength of 13? Is there something specific you had in mind for it? Short of encumbrance purposes, the bolt ace has no need for strength. In regards to Measured Response vs. Deadly Aim... given that Deadly Aim continues to add extra damage every four levels how does Measured Response keep up with that?
N. Jolly, I look forward to you updating your guide with the new Bolt Ace information!
In regards to the Minotaur Double Xbow... where can you find the cost/damage? I know the info about it is in the minotaur monster entry, but I cannot find it on a table.
I don't know where you can find it, but I can find it in Classic Monsters Revisited ;-)
I've been wanting to build a character with the <Measured Response> feat for a while
It's....flavorful, but past level 1, I'd be hard pressed to justify spending even a trait on it.
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Joe, I like the layout you have there, but I gotta ask. Why the strength of 13? Is there something specific you had in mind for it? Short of encumbrance purposes, the bolt ace has no need for strength.
Left-over point-buy. Nothing else to do with that 1 point. :-)
In regards to Measured Response vs. Deadly Aim... given that Deadly Aim continues to add extra damage every four levels how does Measured Response keep up with that
I checked the numbers @ lvl 11. Since I'm planning this guy as a PFS character, that's the highest it'll get. If I end up playing him at higher levels I'll see if I want to grab Deadly Aim then.
***
ALSO, I've seen some moaning in the other threads about Sharp Shooter not working with Signature Deed. But if you check the numbers (and again, I'm just checking at lvl 11), that would massively increase DPR compared to an optimized Fighter-Archer. So it's a very good thing that the PDT blocked that.
55.3 dpr — Bolt Ace (no Sharp Shooter)
61.6 dpr — Fighter Archer
97.2 dpr — Bolt Ace (Sharp Shooter for 0 grit)
So take heart—that's not a huge loss, the Bolt Ace still holds her own v. normal archers. (And I've never heard anyone complain about archer damage in Pathfinder ...)
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I've been wanting to build a character with the <Measured Response> feat for a whileIt's....flavorful, but past level 1, I'd be hard pressed to justify spending even a trait on it.
Sure, sure, the mechanical drawbacks (it's a feat that does *nothing* mechanically—which is ... less than ideal for a feat slot!). But I like it. Which is why I've been looking for a build that has enough feats and no need of a mechanical boost to throw it on. :-)
Actually, I first heard about this when playing an archer through the last book of Runelords. I was pretty sick of all those d8s. :-)
(About the mechanical non-effect: In my home game I'd probably make it a trait that also threw in +1 Init or something, but oh well.)
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N. Jolly, I look forward to you updating your guide with the new Bolt Ace information!
The guide is officially updated, Bolt Ace is now hands down better than Gunslinger in just about every way.
Minotaur Double Crossbow is the best non utility CB for single wielding.
Hand Crossbow is for TWF with two guns although the range is painful.
Launching Crossbow is super viable for elemental damage, and actually, since you can load bombs into it, Underground Chemist 2 (to get bombs) would make for int+dex damage to bombs, although it's not super helpful. I still like Launching for a cool option though, I'd flavor it as a grenade launcher myself.
Light Crossbow kind of loses it's golden crown. It's still a great option, but there's no reason not to give it a crank instead.
Now what are your thoughts on Inexplicable Reload with TWF with Hand Crossbows? Reloading becomes "not an action" what the heck does that even mean? Does that mean the Xbows reload themselves and you no longer require an empty hand to reload? How would this interact with the Endless Ammunition enchantment? I ask because PFS and table variation...
Also, Joe, I gotcha on the extra point. I see what you mean about Deadly Aim when you do an average number crunch.
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Now what are your thoughts on Inexplicable Reload with TWF with Hand Crossbows? Reloading becomes "not an action" what the heck does that even mean? Does that mean the Xbows reload themselves and you no longer require an empty hand to reload? How would this interact with the Endless Ammunition enchantment? I ask because PFS and table variation...
As far as I understand, the "not an action" thing should cover GMs who place a limit on the number of free actions in a round, or for any weird situations when you're unable to take free actions as normal (off-turn, nauseated, etc.?). I dunno, though. It is weird. It would be pretty cool if it allowed two-crossbow-fighting. :-)
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It doesn't remove the hand use, but it does let you take it off-turn, or when denied free actions. Now that we've started using "free action that can be taken even when not your turn" which wasn't really in vogue back when the PDT worked on the errata, that might have been the easiest and most applicable thing to say.
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Following <N Jolly's excellent observation in another thread>, I've reshuffled Tip.
The ONLY thing the nerf to Sharp Shoot does is promises there's no reason past 5th level to take this class. I'm not joking, Sig Deed was the only reason to stay past 5th level.
Tip Allen, Abadar's Artillery (v.2)
Human Bolt Ace Gunslinger 6/Divine Hunter Paladin 2/Weapon Master Fighter 3. Devotee of Abadar, member of the Silver Crusade.Str 12 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 12
01 [BA] Indomitable Faith, Reactionary; (b) Measured Response, Point-Blank Shot
02 [Pal] (b) Precise Shot
03 [BA] Rapid Shot
04 [BA] +1 Dex [= 19]
05 [BA] (b) Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
06 [BA] (Crossbow Training 1)
07 [Pal] Manyshot
08 [Ftr] +1 Dex [= 20], (b) Improved Critical
09 [Ftr] (b) Clustered Shots, Toughness
10 [BA] —
11 [Ftr] (Weapon Training 1); Improved Precise Shot
Base Stats: BAB +11; Fort/Ref/Will +11/+6/+6
The heavy multiclassing is chosen to up defenses through maximizing base saves and acquiring Divine Grace and Nimble +2.** Toughness helps mitigate the loss of FCB to HP. Offense is better than before, too, thanks to Weapon Training.
** So, pace N Jolly, there are great reasons to grab that 6th level in Bolt Ace: +1 BAB, +1 all saves, +1 dodge to AC. But yeah, no real reason to go past that.
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It doesn't remove the hand use, but it does let you take it off-turn, or when denied free actions. Now that we've started using "free action that can be taken even when not your turn" which wasn't really in vogue back when the PDT worked on the errata, that might have been the easiest and most applicable thing to say.
Great, thanks for the clarification! :-)
It doesn't remove the hand use, but it does let you take it off-turn, or when denied free actions. Now that we've started using "free action that can be taken even when not your turn" which wasn't really in vogue back when the PDT worked on the errata, that might have been the easiest and most applicable thing to say.
Thank you for that clarification, Mark, and for popping into my little thread! I greatly appreciate your dedication to helping educate those of us on these strange, little quirks.
What are your thoughts on a 1 level dip in UnC Rogue to pick up Trapfinding and Weapon Finesse? I hate being a One-Trick Pony in PFS and Trapfinding is always a good ability to have when you're missing a Trapmonkey. Given that the only thing I'd be missing out is a bonus feat at level 12...
It doesn't remove the hand use, but it does let you take it off-turn, or when denied free actions. Now that we've started using "free action that can be taken even when not your turn" which wasn't really in vogue back when the PDT worked on the errata, that might have been the easiest and most applicable thing to say.Thank you for that clarification, Mark, and for popping into my little thread! I greatly appreciate your dedication to helping educate those of us on these strange, little quirks.
What are your thoughts on a 1 level dip in UnC Rogue to pick up Trapfinding and Weapon Finesse? I hate being a One-Trick Pony in PFS and Trapfinding is always a good ability to have when you're missing a Trapmonkey. Given that the only thing I'd be missing out is a bonus feat at level 12...
No prob!
It's certainly not bad, and something like BoltAce 5 / UnchainedRogue 3 or 4 might be interesting (3 for finesse training's Dex to damage for switch-hitting, or 4 for debilitating injury; avoiding 5 because it drops BAB again)
It doesn't remove the hand use, but it does let you take it off-turn, or when denied free actions. Now that we've started using "free action that can be taken even when not your turn" which wasn't really in vogue back when the PDT worked on the errata, that might have been the easiest and most applicable thing to say.Thank you for that clarification, Mark, and for popping into my little thread! I greatly appreciate your dedication to helping educate those of us on these strange, little quirks.
What are your thoughts on a 1 level dip in UnC Rogue to pick up Trapfinding and Weapon Finesse? I hate being a One-Trick Pony in PFS and Trapfinding is always a good ability to have when you're missing a Trapmonkey. Given that the only thing I'd be missing out is a bonus feat at level 12...
No prob!
It's certainly not bad, and something like BoltAce 5 / UnchainedRogue 3 or 4 might be interesting (3 for finesse training's Dex to damage for switch-hitting, or 4 for debilitating injury; avoiding 5 because it drops BAB again)
That's actually a very interesting possibility. Although I'd lose out on Trapfinding... the sniper archetype screams multiclassing option with Bolt Ace for those instances when you can actually take advantage of such situations. Debilitating Injury is a pretty awesome ability to have for switch hitting.
You'd have to really be in the nitty-gritty ranges, but with decent HP and medium armors available, might be a nice option.
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Following <N Jolly's excellent observation in another thread>, I've reshuffled Tip.
The ONLY thing the nerf to Sharp Shoot does is promises there's no reason past 5th level to take this class. I'm not joking, Sig Deed was the only reason to stay past 5th level.Tip Allen, Abadar's Artillery (v.2)
Human Bolt Ace Gunslinger 6/Divine Hunter Paladin 2/Weapon Master Fighter 3. Devotee of Abadar, member of the Silver Crusade.Str 12 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 12
01 [BA] Indomitable Faith, Reactionary; (b) Measured Response, Point-Blank Shot
02 [Pal] (b) Precise Shot
03 [BA] Rapid Shot
04 [BA] +1 Dex [= 19]
05 [BA] (b) Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
06 [BA] (Crossbow Training 1)
07 [Pal] Manyshot
08 [Ftr] +1 Dex [= 20], (b) Improved Critical
09 [Ftr] (b) Clustered Shots, Toughness
10 [BA] —
11 [Ftr] (Weapon Training 1); Improved Precise ShotBase Stats: BAB +11; Fort/Ref/Will +11/+6/+6
The heavy multiclassing is chosen to up defenses through maximizing base saves and acquiring Divine Grace and Nimble +2.** Toughness helps mitigate the loss of FCB to HP. Offense is better than before, too, thanks to Weapon Training.
** So, pace N Jolly, there are great reasons to grab that 6th level in Bolt Ace: +1 BAB, +1 all saves, +1 dodge to AC. But yeah, no real reason to go past that.
I can agree to this, I really meant class feature wise, although it's debatable if GS 6 is really super valuable. Or at least if they're worth what you can get for going with another class. Most dip options are already giving 1 BAB, so the bonus to will save is the biggest seller, since the +1 AC isn't too big for a dex based class. Still, a nice fun build you have here, it'd be nice to try out sometime.
It doesn't remove the hand use, but it does let you take it off-turn, or when denied free actions. Now that we've started using "free action that can be taken even when not your turn" which wasn't really in vogue back when the PDT worked on the errata, that might have been the easiest and most applicable thing to say.
wouldn't that allow you to take a five foot step basically whenever you want since that is also a "No Action"
It doesn't remove the hand use, but it does let you take it off-turn, or when denied free actions. Now that we've started using "free action that can be taken even when not your turn" which wasn't really in vogue back when the PDT worked on the errata, that might have been the easiest and most applicable thing to say.wouldn't that allow you to take a five foot step basically whenever you want since that is also a "No Action"
5-foot step and delay have their own particular rules on usage, above and beyond other miscellaneous and initiative actions.
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Okay, the loss to damage hurt, but not as much as I was fearing. Checking at lvl 11 versus my basic fighter archer. At -12 dpr without Sharp Shoot, +4 dpr with it. Even without Sharp Shoot, the damage output is within a reasonable range, and with a crit range of 17–20 I hope to be recouping grit at a good enough rate to use the deed pretty regularly. I'm happy enough with that.
If I rework the build to grab the fourth level of Fighter and Weapon Specialization, we're looking at -6 dpr without Sharp Shoot, +12 with it.
Here's an updated version.
Tip Allen, Abadar's Artillery (v.3)
Human Bolt Ace Gunslinger 5/Divine Hunter Paladin 2/Weapon Master Fighter 4. Devotee of Abadar, member of the Silver Crusade.
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 14
01 [Blt 01] Indomitable Faith, Reactionary; (b) Measured Response, Point-Blank Shot
02 [Pal 01] (b) Precise Shot
03 [Blt 02] Rapid Shot
04 [Blt 03] +1 Dex [= 19]
05 [Blt 04] (b) Rapid Reload, Extra Grit
06 [Blt 05] (Crossbow Training 1)
07 [Pal 02] (Divine Grace); Clustered Shots
08 [Ftr 01] +1 Dex [= 20], (b) Improved Critical
09 [Ftr 02] (b) Weapon Focus, Toughness
10 [Ftr 03] (Weapon Training 1)
11 [Ftr 04] (b) Weapon Specialization, Improved Precise Shot
Base Stats: BAB +11; Fort/Ref/Will +11/+5/+5
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It allows out of turn reloading with effects like snap shot and combat patrol.Now what are your thoughts on Inexplicable Reload with TWF with Hand Crossbows? Reloading becomes "not an action" what the heck does that even mean? Does that mean the Xbows reload themselves and you no longer require an empty hand to reload? How would this interact with the Endless Ammunition enchantment? I ask because PFS and table variation...
Also, Joe, I gotcha on the extra point. I see what you mean about Deadly Aim when you do an average number crunch.
You are quite correct that out of turn reloading for those effects is exactly what we were looking at when we wanted to make sure the bolt ace could do it. The easiest thing to say, as I mentioned a little earlier, now that we've added it to our list of ways we can phrase things more recently, would probably have been that it's a free action that you can use even when not your turn.
What type of action would reloading with a third arm or tentacle be? If you pick up the extra arm or tentacle discovery from 2 levels of alchemist could you reload two light crossbows at full iterations or would it only work for one or not at all because it the discovery would effectively be giving you extra attacks which they are not allowed to do?
Rule of cool in my mind would be two hand crossbows and a tentacle that is placed to effectively be a tail that you use to reload both.
What type of action would reloading with a third arm or tentacle be? If you pick up the extra arm or tentacle discovery from 2 levels of alchemist could you reload two light crossbows at full iterations or would it only work for one or not at all because it the discovery would effectively be giving you extra attacks which they are not allowed to do?
Rule of cool in my mind would be two hand crossbows and a tentacle that is placed to effectively be a tail that you use to reload both.
It doesn't change the kind of action required, it just gives you a free hand to do it with while you're dual-wielding pistol crossbows.
Yeah, it looked like my best option in context, but with you on that.
BUT just realized—Manyshot won't work with a crossbow! That's a pretty huge hit to damage. Going to have to re-evaluate. Hoping the loss doesn't set the build *too* far behind. :-/
Any suggestions?
You won't get Manyshot at 6th level, but you can pick up a double-crossbow at level 11 (if you go full Bolt Ace) which basically doubles the number of shots you make in a turn.