[PFS] Help Me Salvage My "Red Mantis Assassin"


Advice

1 to 50 of 57 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Silver Crusade

I have a halfling character in PFS who wants to be a Red Mantis Assassin.

This is what her build looks like right now:

CG female halfling
Abilities Str 7, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 16

    1. Swashbuckler 1: Swashbuckler Finesse, Quick Draw
    2. Slayer 1: studied target, track
    3. Slayer 2: Talent (Weapon Focus [sawtooth sabre]), Slashing Grace (sawtooth sabre)
    4. Slayer 3: sneak attack +1d6, Dex +1
    5. Slayer 4: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting (slayer talent)
    6. Ninja 1: Sneak attack +2d6
    7. Slayer 5: 2nd studied target, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
    8. Slayer 6: Talent (Improved Two Weapon Fighting), sneak attack +3d6, Dex +1
    9. Slayer 7: Stalker, swift studied target, Improved Critical (sawtooth sabre)
    10. Slayer 8: TALENT
    11. Slayer 9: FEAT, sneak attack +4d6
    12. Slayer 10: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, 3rd studied target

I was hoping that she would be able to fight with two sawtooth sabers. With the errata to the Advanced Player's Guide, that does not seem possible now. It has been clarified that the only thing that can be retrained on this character is Slashing Grace, because only the feat changed.

With the errata, she will be taking a –6 to attack and damage if she tries to go the TWF route, as planned.

She is currently 4th-level.

Suggestions?


Edit: Slashing Grace applies to light weapons too? If so... that makes things easier.

The Fox wrote:

Suggestions?

Pirahna Strike and Risky Striker are decent damage feats.

I'd recommend 2 levels of Ninja to get a Ki Pool so you can get a second attack via Ki Points.

1. Swashbuckler 1: Swashbuckler Finesse, Quick Draw
2. Slayer 1: studied target, track
3. Slayer 2: Talent (WF [kukr]), Slashing Grace (kukri)
4. Slayer 3: sneak attack +1d6, Dex +1
5. Ninja 1: +2d6 Sneak Attack, Pirahna Strike
6. Ninja 2: Ki Pool, Risky Striker (Ninja Talent)

Get Boots of Speed ASAP.

That will give you some solid damage still.

Silver Crusade

She doesn't need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre) before Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre). The sawtooth sabre is a martial weapon (it behaves like a longsword) without the EWP feat. She has proficiency in martial weapons.

More importantly, I'm asking how I can salvage this character concept with this character. I want to be able to use TWF with sawtooth sabres.

I could easily do a kukri build. I'd probably do knife master rogue instead of ninja, and stop taking slayer levels. It would be a much more powerful character, in fact.

But this character's backstory involves Red Mantis Assassins, and that's where I was going with her. Is there any way to salvage that?

Edit to your edit: ;)

sawtooth sabre wrote:
The signature weapon of certain assassin cults, the sawtooth sabre is a cruelly efficient weapon. You may use a sawtooth sabre as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions identically to a longsword). If you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre) feat, for the purpose of two-weapon fighting you can treat it as a light melee weapon; for all other purposes it is a one-handed melee weapon.

Even with EWP, Piranha Strike won't work with the sawtooth sabre. :(


Just say that your offhand weapon is sheathed. Use your main hand for the first attack, drop your main hand then draw your offhand using Quick Draw and make the second attack, since only 1 weapon is in hand and the other hand is free Slashing Grace still works. There is nothing saying you cant do this as its only 2 free actions (1 to drop weapon and 1 to draw other weapon).

I realize dropping a weapon isnt ideal, but until Paizo allows Weapon Juggling Feat into the game your screwed either way lol.

But seriously. you cant now, Slashing Grace requires you have nothing in your offhand so TWF is no longer viable.

Silver Crusade

Rory wrote:
This type of build is largely hosed.

Yep.

I might just trash her and start over with a human. I only have around 15 unplayed scenarios though. It is frustrating to lose the 8 chronicles of credit for this character.


Put agile on them, that's about your only choice now.
Amusingly, you still need slashing grace to finesse them, so no help there.

If you could retrain attributes, you could just go STR TWF instead (slayers can get the feats pre-req free), but I guess that boat sailed...

EDIT: Wait, you can't even put agile on them, since they are non-finessable (even if they were with slashing grace...).


The Fox wrote:

But this character's backstory involves Red Mantis Assassins, and that's where I was going with her. Is there any way to salvage that?

Alas, I don't know how to make the sawtooth sabre work. It's just hosed.

Silver Crusade

Alric Rahl wrote:
Just say that your offhand weapon is sheathed. Use your main hand for the first attack, drop your main hand then draw your offhand using Quick Draw and make the second attack, since only 1 weapon is in hand and the other hand is free Slashing Grace still works. There is nothing saying you cant do this as its only 2 free actions (1 to drop weapon and 1 to draw other weapon).

I don't think that works.

Slashing Grace errata wrote:
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.

Even if one weapon is sheathed, I would still be "fighting with two weapons."

:(

Silver Crusade

Rory wrote:
The Fox wrote:

But this character's backstory involves Red Mantis Assassins, and that's where I was going with her. Is there any way to salvage that?

Alas, I don't know how to make the sawtooth sabre work. It's just hosed.

Yeah, that was my assessment as well. I just wanted to post this to see if there was something I was missing. :/


Pester Paizo to allow Effortless Lace lol. Any weapon sized for you is now considered a Light Melee for all feats/abilities/magic etc. Then you would have to get Agile on them, is about the only way to do it.


The Fox wrote:
I might just trash her and start over with a human. I only have around 15 unplayed scenarios though. It is frustrating to lose the 8 chronicles of credit for this character.

You can salvage the credits easily enough, just not with sawtooth sabre red mantis concept.

For example, the player I mentioned in the other thread is a Mouser archetype Swashbuckler gone ninja. He has fun jumping in foe's squares. He'll lose TWF and the sawtooth sabres, but he'll still be viable.

Swashbuckler 1 - Swashbuckler Finesse, EWP: Sawtooth Sabre
Ninja 1 - +1d6 Sneak Attack
Ninja 2 - Ki Pool, WF: Sawtooth Sabre, Slashing grace (ninja talent)
Ninja 3 - +2d6 Sneak Attack
Ninja 4 - Pirahna Strike (previously Two Weapon Fighting)

He's also level 4 at this time, so is in the exact same boat as you with respect to sawtooth sabres.

I wish I could help more...

Scarab Sages

I'm not sure why a CG character would would to join a LE group, but beyond that, the build is hosed mechanically now. The only way to TWF with dex to damage now is with three levels of unchained rogue, using standard finesse weapons. Even then, you do not benefit from double slice which is a wasted feat tax if you want to take two-weapon rend.

The Exchange

put agile on the sabers? of course it is debatable if the saber qualifies for it.


Retrain Slayer to UC rogue?

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:
I'm not sure why a CG character would would to join a LE group...

She doesn't want to join the RMA. She wants to learn to fight like one. She was a Chelaxian slave who was freed when a Red Mantis Assassin fulfilled a contract on her owner.

Silver Crusade

Agile doesn't work on the sabres. They are not finesse-able weapons.

I don't think even the unchained rogue will let me TWF with the sabres using a Dex build, will it?


Nope, they won't since finesse training also needs a finessable weapon.

So yeah, RMAs are SOL. They gotta hit the gym now if they actually want to kill people with their signature weapons.

Scarab Sages

You could by using effortless lace with each of the sabres, but effortless lace isn't PFS legal.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
The Fox wrote:

Agile doesn't work on the sabres. They are not finesse-able weapons.

I don't think even the unchained rogue will let me TWF with the sabres using a Dex build, will it?

if you keep slashing grace, they'll count as one-handed piercing weapons and thus swash will make them finessable and so UC rogue will be able to do it.

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:
The Fox wrote:

Agile doesn't work on the sabres. They are not finesse-able weapons.

I don't think even the unchained rogue will let me TWF with the sabres using a Dex build, will it?

if you keep slashing grace, they'll count as one-handed piercing weapons and thus swash will make them finessable and so UC rogue will be able to do it.

Except you cannot benefit from Slashing Grace at all if you are two weapon fighting.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

yeah so this is pretty SOL then.

Silver Crusade Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

How many people have said you can't rebuild more thoroughly in these circumstances? I've only seen one.

Even if that's so, petition leadership to allow a deeper rebuild. It's not like pistolero/mysterious stranger, where it was an obvious abuse of a loophole.

If nothing else, it can't hurt to ask. ^_^


Seconding Kalindlara, Sawtooth Sabre builds are DOA now. You need to petition for a better rebuild option.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Kudaku wrote:
Seconding Kalindlara, Sawtooth Sabre builds are DOA now. You need to petition for a better rebuild option.

not sure if stamina options from unchained are allowed in PFS, but...

you can get karin style and artful dodge to make a decent slayer/fighter/magus relying on int and str.

Silver Crusade Contributor

I'm 99% certain that the stamina subsystem is not allowed in PFS.


If our recent adventures with Mystic Theurge is any indication, I doubt there will be the kind of rebuild you'd like here.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:
I'm 99% certain that the stamina subsystem is not allowed in PFS.

damn, because the build, while very feat intensive is great on sawtooth sabers.


Wait... there is a way.... but you will take -2 to attack... Purchase Sawtooth Sabre (s) (Small sized), this reclassifies the weapon to a light weapon for you. If A medium One Handed weapon made large increases it to a 2 Handed weapon category then the reverse can be extrapolated too. Reducing the size of the weapon will drop its category one step. So Onehanded down to Light.

Now you can use it with Weapon Finesse and take 3 levels of Rogue to get the Finesseable Dex to Damage.

EDIT: Nevermind missed the part of Weapon Finesse saying made for your size category.

Liberty's Edge

Weapon finesse only works on weapons of your size category.

(I need a macro for that or something.)


Goddamn, Just found this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler/archetypes/ever yman-gaming-llc/ronin-swashbuckler... but its a 3rd party archetype...

Although it has the Paizo stamp on the cover of the book.... lol


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Alric Rahl wrote:

Wait... there is a way.... but you will take -2 to attack... Purchase Sawtooth Sabre (s) (Small sized), this reclassifies the weapon to a light weapon for you. If A medium One Handed weapon made large increases it to a 2 Handed weapon category then the reverse can be extrapolated too. Reducing the size of the weapon will drop its category one step. So Onehanded down to Light.

Now you can use it with Weapon Finesse and take 3 levels of Rogue to get the Finesseable Dex to Damage.

EDIT: Nevermind missed the part of Weapon Finesse saying made for your size category.

even if this did work, which you posted you know it doesn't, this completely undermines the reason to use sawtooth sabers :P


Hey Fox, what about this...?

1. Swashbuckler 1: Swashbuckler Finesse, Quick Draw
2. Slayer 1: studied target, track
3. Slayer 2: Talent (Weapon Focus [sawtooth sabre]), Slashing Grace (sawtooth sabre)
4. Slayer 3: sneak attack +1d6, Dex +1
5. Ninja 1: Sneak attack +2d6, EWP: Sawtooth Sabre
6. Ninja 2: Ki Pool (extra attacks), Two-Weapon Fighting (ninja talent)

Main Hand attack is the sawtooth sabre. Off Hand attack is armor spikes.

You have a hand unoccupied. Does Slashing Grace apply to the sawtooth sabre? I don't have the full text, so I can't tell if that is true.

Your offhand strike is with armor spikes (light weapon, piercing), so Swashbuckler Finesse would apply. You could then enchant the Armor Spikes to be Agile, as they are light weapons.

When fighting with TWF, you can Pirahna Strike with both, as they are both light weapons when TWFing with EWP: Sawtooth sabre.

It isn't TWFing with two sawtooth sabres, but it's only one question away from being able to use a sawtooth sabre for your halfling red mantis concept.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

it specifically says you cannot two weapon fight...

“You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.”


Bandw2 wrote:
Alric Rahl wrote:

Wait... there is a way.... but you will take -2 to attack... Purchase Sawtooth Sabre (s) (Small sized), this reclassifies the weapon to a light weapon for you. If A medium One Handed weapon made large increases it to a 2 Handed weapon category then the reverse can be extrapolated too. Reducing the size of the weapon will drop its category one step. So Onehanded down to Light.

Now you can use it with Weapon Finesse and take 3 levels of Rogue to get the Finesseable Dex to Damage.

EDIT: Nevermind missed the part of Weapon Finesse saying made for your size category.

even if this did work, which you posted you know it doesn't, this completely undermines the reason to use sawtooth sabers :P

not necessarily damage goes down only to a d6 but the crit range stays the same and its still Sawtooth Sabres for her Red Mantis Assassin concept. which require proficiency with Sawtooth Sabres.


Bandw2 wrote:

it specifically says you cannot two weapon fight...

“You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.”

Well, that's as clear as it can be.


Good luck, Fox.

I have 10 PFS chars I need to change out build progressions for because of the ACG errata, so I can commiserate ...

Silver Crusade

Also, she is a halfling. Tiny weapons are not available.

I am resigned to just tossing this character at this point.

I want a character who uses TWF with sawtooth sabres. Short of a full rebuild, this character is not going to be able to do that. PFS leadership is very reluctant to allow full rebuilds.

Alternatively, I can keep playing this character and enjoy how much she sucks. At 5th level, I will take TWF. Her melee attacks will be

    Melee +1 mithral sawtooth sabre +3 (1d6–1/19-20), and mithral sawtooth sabre +3 (1d6–2/19-20)

It might be fun to play a character so laughably inept.

Silver Crusade

TimD wrote:

Good luck, Fox.

I have 10 PFS chars I need to change out build progressions for because of the ACG errata, so I can commiserate ...

:( Sorry to hear that.

I have others that need tweaking too. This is the only character of mine that seems irrevocably affected. The others were minor tweaks or GM babies that I can just start from scratch.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Could just switch to fighter and start accumulating static bonuses to overcome the damage loss.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

just... just put the poor thing down.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Nah, keep playing her. IneptLife. :D

People would lose their minds if they saw some of the stuff I play (or plan to play). Yes, even in PFS.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have other suggestions, but with the requirement being "use two-weapon fighting as part of full attacks with sawtooth sabre on this dexterity focused character," I don't have any helpful suggestions. I see options for this character, but none that meet those requirements you are looking for.

Silver Crusade

Blazej wrote:
I have other suggestions, but with the requirement being "use two-weapon fighting as part of full attacks with sawtooth sabre on this dexterity focused character," I don't have any helpful suggestions. I see options for this character, but none that meet those requirements you are looking for.

Thank you. I realize that my parameters are being very restrictive. It is frustration at having a flavorful character concept that I finally found a way to be mechanically viable, and having the mechanics change so that the character concept is no longer viable.

And I also want to take a moment to say that I greatly appreciate both the help everyone is offering here and the sympathy. Thank you. :)

Silver Crusade

Also, I don't mind giving up the focus to Dexterity for this character. I can scrap Slashing Grace entirely. The only thing I want to remain stubborn on is TWF with sawtooth sabres. That is pretty integral to the concept. Dex-based attack and damage was just the mechanical route that I went with the character because she is a halfling.

At 8th level, I can add +1 Str to reduce the penalties to –1. I can save up for a belt of giant Strength +2 to reduce the penalties to 0. And then continue putting all of my money into that belt.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Well, must it be a sawtooth saber? You could switch it to, say, wakizashis and lament that you can't seem to find a good sawtooth saber since aren't one of those awesome Red Mantis guys. Then it'd just be the cost of retraining the weapon focus feat so you can reapply the Slashing Grace feat to it. You can even say your PC glued serrated fins to the weapons to look more appropriate. Could make it slightly more humorous if you don't mind the rebuild cost, weaker damage die (offset by the higher crit range), and reflavoring of your PC.

1. Swashbuckler 1: Swashbuckler Finesse, Quick Draw
2. Slayer 1: studied target, track
3. Slayer 2: 5PP Rebuild - Talent (Weapon Focus [wakizashi]), Free replace - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (wakizashi)
4. Slayer 3: sneak attack +1d6, Dex +1
5. Slayer 4: Slashing Grace (wakizashi), Two-Weapon Fighting (slayer talent)
6. Snakestrike Biter Brawler 1: Sneak attack +2d6 (I think it's a better option for a single dip for sneak attack than ninja since you aren't going a 2nd ninja level for ki; also keeps up your BAB and offers slightly better saves/HP at a cost of 4 skill points)
7. Slayer 5: 2nd studied target, Double Slice
8. Slayer 6: Talent (Improved Two Weapon Fighting), sneak attack +3d6, Dex +1
9. Slayer 7: Stalker, swift studied target, Improved Critical (sawtooth sabre)
10. Slayer 8: TALENT
11. Slayer 9: FEAT, sneak attack +4d6
12. Slayer 10: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, 3rd studied target

EDIT: Just saw your latest post, Fox, but still leaving this up as a suggestion.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Actually, I think this is what I'm going to do:

I have 9 prestige and 1,367 gp.

  • Spend 5 prestige and 200 gp to retrain Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre) into Weapon Focus (rapier).
  • Free retrain Slashing Grace into Fencing Grace.
  • Sell the +1 mithral sawtooth sabre for 1,267 gp
  • Buy two Small mithral rapiers.
  • Claim to be fighting in the style of Red Mantis Assassins, but with rapiers.
  • Wait for the errata for Advanced Class Origins.
  • Flip the table.

:)

Liberty's Edge

WINNER

Silver Crusade

Yay [/sarcasm] :/

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Alternatively, what about this? You could alter the concept to say that your character desperately WANTS to be a Red Mantis Assassin, and has all the aptitude and skill for it, but suffers from a handicap: one of her arms/hands bears a permanent injury or birth defect, such that she can't get any combat-grade mobility out of it. Now, she's desperately trying to prove her worth in spite of her disadvantage, by becoming the best sawtooth-duelist in town.

Silver Crusade

Jiggy!

Thanks. I think I need to just set this character aside for a while.

I'm having trouble coming up with changes to the character that won't just anger me.

Trying to look on the bright side: I only have 7 chronicles on this character that cannot be replayed. I can start over with a new character.

1 to 50 of 57 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / [PFS] Help Me Salvage My "Red Mantis Assassin" All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.