ACG Errata


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avr wrote:
I won't be able to open a zipfile until late tomorrow. What's been done to shamans exactly?

Mostly obvious things like the normal once per day limit on hexes being added to some hexes that didn't have it. The big addition is the Summon Nature's Ally line.


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Rub-Eta wrote:
Hey Silver Surfer, what do you think about the Ecclesitheurge errate? Still hate it? (Don't know if it will change your mind, just wondering)

Poor.... I've known about the Ecclesitheruge errata for quite a while

The Ecclesitheurge is like the runner in a race who makes a really good start and then gases completely after the 1st lap!!

Its completely half-assed.... if you want to make a caster cleric, then make a £$%^& caster clerc!!!

Blessing of the Faithful....basically worthless.... in order for it have any merit you have to expend a channel to get the duration into rounds but that in itself is only viable when you get your channel upto 5D6 (11TH-12TH LEVEL??).... and even then its a standard action to cast just to get a measly +2..... horrendous use of action economy for a class who is supposed to have as one of its prime roles as buffing!! The fact that you give up D6 worth of channeling (in itself pretty useless) to get something equally/more useless is the icing on the cake!!! Should have kicked out channeling completely for something fresh, interesting (and useful!)

The archetype is stuck in limbo between the cleric and something more "castery".... and because Paizo didnt follow through with the design properly it basically falls flat on its ass if it tries to do either!! Why oh why they didnt go full on D6 divine I will never know....

I could go on....

In summary.... it gives up an awful lot for not a lot in return.

Potential..... sadly wasted.


memorax wrote:
I was expecting 2-3 at most 5 pages. but nine pages. Man i'm glad I disallow the book from my tables. Even SR5 had less errata. Not to mention agreeing with what needed nerfing and what did not imo.

SR5 had less errata because Catalyst decided to not fix all the issues, instead using later releases to release material that does the same thing as the broken stuff in core, but with slight fixes.

It's a mind-boggling decision, for a book that is far, far, far worse off in the errata department than the ACG was.


Of course, some needed errata are still missing. For instance, the Brawler's Flurry still doesn't actually say what it does.


Spirit's Gift...


Also, for those interested in knowing some of the fascinating math behind the scenes of Pathfinder, if you work out the average DPR of a fighter, you'll find out that the difference in DPR due to having a starting strength of 18 vs 17 is about 10%, with most of that extra damage coming from the +1 higher to-hit bonus.

Kinda cool how small things like that really add up to big effects.


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Heh... The rules errata shares the "quality" of the book's editing.

How ironic.

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:
if you work out the average DPR of a fighter, you'll find out that the difference in DPR due to having a starting strength of 18 vs 17 is about 10%, with most of that extra damage coming from the +1 higher to-hit bonus.

Yes I have been using anydice and it's great to help determine which weapons and feats are better than others.

From your example, a lvl 3 fighter with 17 vs 18 str, click on "summary" to get average dmg/rnd
http://anydice.com/program/641f


Covent wrote:
Spirit's Gift...

Sigh

Yea my Eldritch Guardian is gonna have to say more careful sending his mauler fox familiar in Rise of the Runelords. Maybe my GM will let me retrain the feat.


Protoman wrote:
Maybe my GM will let me retrain the feat.

Just see if he will let you play out the campaign with the old ruling. If he allowed it in the first place, then it shouldn't bother him any more now.


lemeres wrote:

Well, the change to the arcane deed was rather expected...

I mean...it makes arcane deed into another flavor thing mostly...but still, you were lifting the best and most distinctive class features of another class at level 3, and using them better than that class. So largely? This was likely meant to be a nothing option, and then they nerfed it when they realize the monster they made.

Technically Arcane Deed: Precise Strike didn't work even before the errata because, as the errata now explicitly states, it had no Swashbuckler level. Whether that was the original intent, who knows. People using it as such came down to a vast, collective cry of "of COURSE it's supposed to work, they just made a mistake!" Which may be true, but again, who knows.


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That the errata had to spell out that the magus has 0 Swash levels (instead of covering it as an FAQ) means that it did, in fact, work pre-errata.

Also, If that was the case, Daring Champion also wouldn't work (as it did not get relevant text update, only parry and riposte removed).


Melkiador wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Maybe my GM will let me retrain the feat.
Just see if he will let you play out the campaign with the old ruling. If he allowed it in the first place, then it shouldn't bother him any more now.

The entire table are rather stickler for rules (well maybe not with nonhuman ethnic/regional languages). Plus whole party already gave guff about constant DR 5/adamantine for a familiar that's been as strong and healthy as they rest of the party already. The errata is nailing that feat to uselessness when I can still pick up Mauler's Endurance or constant combat (teamwork) feat to share.

Liberty's Edge

Cheapy wrote:


SR5 had less errata because Catalyst decided to not fix all the issues, instead using later releases to release material that does the same thing as the broken stuff in core, but with slight fixes.

It's a mind-boggling decision, for a book that is far, far, far worse off in the errata department than the ACG was.

True but I expect that from Catalyst games. I sure as hell expected more from Paizo. I wanted to eventually buy a used second printing. I'm not even going to do that because they needed stuff that did not need to be IMO.


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LoneKnave wrote:
That the errata had to spell out that the magus has 0 Swash levels (instead of covering it as an FAQ) means that it did, in fact, work pre-errata.

Or perhaps that it needed clarification because a ton of people were assuming it worked? I guess we're doomed to fight over it even after it's dead, "I told you so!" battling with "No, they had to change it so I told you so!" We'll never know the original intent.


But they could have covered that with an FAQ, as they usually do. Also, you aren't addressing my second point.

But sure, if that's what you want to tell yourself, go ahead.


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This seems to just be a massive nerfbat to a lot of things...

I'm over the moon that Divine Protection doesn't give divine casters one of the best perks of being a paladin for a feat, mind you, but what EXACTLY was Steadfast Personality doing so wrong that it got nerfed so hard? Before the feat encouraged classes with weak will saves to make some use of their charisma stat instead of just dumping it into oblivion and focusing on shoring up Wisdom. Now it's basically the Irrepressible trait and you might as well just stick to Iron Will.


LoneKnave wrote:
But they could have covered that with an FAQ, as they usually do. Also, you aren't addressing my second point.

Frankly I don't really care at this point; it was just an observation. My position on it was always 'well, we don't know the intent', as opposed to Daring Champion where my position was always 'we can safely assume we know the intent'. The only thing I'm 'telling myself' at the moment is that I shouldn't have said anything that would naturally lead to comments like...

LoneKnave wrote:
But sure, if that's what you want to tell yourself, go ahead.


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So I guess wanting to play a MMartial that is not a meathead is badwrongfun


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To be fair, Steadfast Personality is now absolutely wonderful for Sorcerers, Oracles, and other CHA casters save for Paladin, who can now dump their Wisdom scores into the nethers. Even if it still counts against their will saves, a -2 WILL offset by a +5 WILL (or more) from their casting stat is a solid plus for any caster. That saves up a bunch of points to be placed in STR (for Oracles), DEX, CON, or what have you.

Once again, casters win :).


So... more potential ammo for all the martial vs caster threads? Cool...


PIXIE DUST wrote:
So I guess wanting to play a MMartial that is not a meathead is badwrongfun

You'll take strength like Gygax intended and you'll like it! :P

I mean the unchained rogue can already do dex to damage without offering up their first born, do you expect more than that single option to be viable?

Verdant Wheel

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Bolt Ace is a boss now.

Proficiency with all x-bows and can start play with a repeating x-bow.

Verdant Wheel

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Also Canny Tumble now synergizes with Sneak Attack. Nice.


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rainzax wrote:

Bolt Ace is a boss now.

Proficiency with all x-bows and can start play with a repeating x-bow.

The correct thing to say is "can start play with a MASTERWORK repeating x-bow"! Or the underwater/Crank variety!


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Not that it matters, since they are only marginally better than the simple weapon crossbows.

Unles you can start with a minotaur double crossbow, in which case...


graystone wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
So I guess wanting to play a MMartial that is not a meathead is badwrongfun

You'll take strength like Gygax intended and you'll like it! :P

I mean the unchained rogue can already do dex to damage without offering up their first born, do you expect more than that single option to be viable?

Really there are still many viable options for going non-meathead; like TWF they tend to be more focused around characters with high static bonuses. Get something like an Inquisitor or Evangelist Cleric or Cavalier going with damage buffs, and losing a few points of Strength and a few points of Power Attack isn't that big a deal. Even just a typical mid-level Fencing Grace Fighter with Gloves of Dueling is only losing around 20% damage compared to falchion.

Sovereign Court

ZanThrax wrote:
The surprise nerfing of Slashing Grace (especially when there's no chance that Fencing Grace will ever be hit with the equivalent nerf)

The only way to get TWF dex-to-damage before was to dip Swash and use sawtoothed sabres. Because it didn't work with light weapons before.

Now it's actually better for anyone who doesn't want to dip Swash - because they can use it for weapons besides the dueling blade. (Assuming that a shield in your other hand still lets Slashing Grace work. That's the way I'm reading it.)

Fencing Grace doesn't need the tweak - because no one is going to try to TWF with rapiers. (Unless they use the OP & PFS illegal Effortless Lace.)


There is also the agile enchant if you want few to damage.


Quote:
The only way to get TWF dex-to-damage before was to dip Swash and use sawtoothed sabres. Because it didn't work with light weapons before.

Agile property.


When will they reprint the book with the eratta changes included?


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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

One thing I noticed--Spirit Talker now only provides the hex for 1 hour, rather than 24 hours. What happens of you use it to take Arcane Enlightenment and prep wizard spells? I can see an argument that once prepped, spells stay prepped, but I can also see using Fluid Magic as a precedent and having any spells prepped through the hex turn to open slots once the hex expires. Might be worth a FAQ.

Spirit Talker and Spirit's Gift both getting downgraded makes me very sad. There aren't any Shaman-like Witch archetypes, but those two feats were an ok substitute. And Air Barrier was sooooo good for a Witch.


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Also this is the reason I work with Path of War. Deadly Agility. Everything you actually asked for with slashing/fencing grace with an added bonus for twf.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
TarkXT wrote:

When will they reprint the book with the eratta changes included?

Probably once the first printing sells out.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
TarkXT wrote:

When will they reprint the book with the eratta changes included?

they posted it somewhere, i just remember it wasn't going to be soon. they released this because demand for the errata was so high, but they're still selling the old version for a while.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
LoneKnave wrote:
Quote:
The only way to get TWF dex-to-damage before was to dip Swash and use sawtoothed sabres. Because it didn't work with light weapons before.
Agile property.
Agile wrote:
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

sawtooth sabers are not normally finessable and thus this does not work.


graystone wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
So I guess wanting to play a MMartial that is not a meathead is badwrongfun
You'll take strength like Gygax intended and you'll like it! :P

Nicely done! :)


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Bandw2 wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
When will they reprint the book with the eratta changes included?
they posted it somewhere, i just remember it wasn't going to be soon. they released this because demand for the errata was so high, but they're still selling the old version for a while.

Well... I guess that is some progress.

I still won't buy the current printing book and I will still advise others to do the same... But, hey! I can at least tell potential customers that there is an errata available online.

Besides, at very least we now have a precedent for ignoring the horrible policy that is "no errata before the reprint" (well, horrible for the consumer, that is).


LoneKnave wrote:
Quote:
The only way to get TWF dex-to-damage before was to dip Swash and use sawtoothed sabres. Because it didn't work with light weapons before.
Agile property.

Small rapier in off hand.

BadBird wrote:
graystone wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:
So I guess wanting to play a MMartial that is not a meathead is badwrongfun

You'll take strength like Gygax intended and you'll like it! :P

I mean the unchained rogue can already do dex to damage without offering up their first born, do you expect more than that single option to be viable?

Really there are still many viable options for going non-meathead; like TWF they tend to be more focused around characters with high static bonuses. Get something like an Inquisitor or Evangelist Cleric or Cavalier going with damage buffs, and losing a few points of Strength and a few points of Power Attack isn't that big a deal. Even just a typical mid-level Fencing Grace Fighter with Gloves of Dueling is only losing around 20% damage compared to falchion.

We have different ideas of viable. I'd like them to be around the same in power, so picking one of is a matter preferred style instead of one being superior in numbers.

As far as damage buffs, some of the dig ones boost str and hurt dex. dex vs str is pretty even without dex needing 3 feats. Nothing in the offhand and/or flurry seems quite excessive. IMO it's to make rogues seem snowflake special with their dex to damage.


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Rynjin wrote:
So from what I can tell they just went through and nerfed just about everything from the book?

From what I've read in the book, they needed to nerf just about everything...

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
Quote:
The only way to get TWF dex-to-damage before was to dip Swash and use sawtoothed sabres. Because it didn't work with light weapons before.
Agile property.
Small rapier in off hand.

Weapon finesse specifies that it only works for weapons of your size category.


Shisumo wrote:
graystone wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
Quote:
The only way to get TWF dex-to-damage before was to dip Swash and use sawtoothed sabres. Because it didn't work with light weapons before.
Agile property.
Small rapier in off hand.
Weapon finesse specifies that it only works for weapons of your size category.

Effortless Lace solves all problems.

Silver Crusade

BadBird wrote:


Technically Arcane Deed: Precise Strike didn't work even before the errata because, as the errata now explicitly states, it had no Swashbuckler level. Whether that was the original intent, who knows. People using it as such came down to a vast, collective cry of "of COURSE it's supposed to work, they just made a mistake!" Which may be true, but again, who knows.

As of this errata, Arcane Deed is dead, and not just for Precise Strike. The vast majority of deeds no longer function for the magus.


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That's a ton of changes. I'm never going to remember them all.

Think I can send back my ACG to trade it in for the next printing?

Grand Lodge

Sure just redownload it. Oh. You meant the dead tree version... :)


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What the... this book didn't even need that big of an errata. These changes are so big and so widespread that the book on my bookshelf is now worthless.

Maybe I should just save myself some aggrivation and not buy the hardcover books until the second printing or something?


The hing that bugs me is that playing anything but the "one true way" (i.e. str) martial requires so much ring jumping... i mean seriously... and anything that does allow for fun other things (like a defense focused Crane Style or dex peeps) just seems to get errata'd to death.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Maybe I should just save myself some aggrivation and not buy the hardcover books until the second printing or something?

Plenty of room in the boat for you to join me.

Sovereign Court

LoneKnave wrote:
Quote:
The only way to get TWF dex-to-damage before was to dip Swash and use sawtoothed sabres. Because it didn't work with light weapons before.
Agile property.

I meant the only way with Slashing Grace. Sorry - I thought was obvious in the context.

Sovereign Court

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PIXIE DUST wrote:
The hing that bugs me is that playing anything but the "one true way" (i.e. str) martial requires so much ring jumping... i mean seriously... and anything that does allow for fun other things (like a defense focused Crane Style or dex peeps) just seems to get errata'd to death.

It's because Dex does too much other stuff to be balanced without it having significant opportunity cost to get dex-to-damage.

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