Razmir: Masks of the Lying "god"?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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So how many much of Avistan that has heard of this guys smells b.s. about the whole "living god" thing?

Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer, page 50 says:

"Razmir claims to have used the Starstone in Absalom to achieve divinity, but any who have visited the City at the Center of the World know this to be false. The truth is totally suppressed in his realm, with “spreaders of sedition” facing a host of harsh sentences, from exile to execution.

Razmiran’s neighbors view the expansion of its cult into their lands as a plague. The willing defection of several border communities to the banner of the Living God underscores the danger posed by Razmir, pushing his neighbors ever closer to taking up arms against him."

This is because the Starstone Cathedral has 4 bridges - 1 for every successful attempt at apotheosis. Razmir does not have one, because, contrary to his claims, he never passed the test, therefore, he obviously cannot be a god. The real gods of Golarion are objectively provable - they grant their followers spells and domain powers and guidance and a place for their souls to rest in the afterlife. Razmir grants his lackeys nothing more than any other powerful wizard-king (like Nex or Geb) could.

I assume the tales of the Starstone have been told throughout Avistan for some time, and even people who have never been to Absalom would have heard of the Cathedral.

It may be that the others in Golarion, regardless of what their main patron deity is could share a general view that it is blasphemy for mortal to self-aggrandize himself as a "god". It'd be an interesting opportunity for followers of otherwise diametrically-opposed faiths (Iomedae and Lamaashtu, for instance) to join forces to take him down, because his cult could be seen as a grave offense to all deities of Golarion.

So the whole "neighbors view the expansion of its cult into their lands as a plague" may be because of that, or it might be simply because any tyrannical, conquering warlord poking at your border is a pain in the ol' backside, regardless of what specific mad ravings of grandeur they ascribe to themselves. Or perhaps a combination?

So I wonder if Razmir's cult is viewed by most as Scientology is viewed in our world - where a lot of people know it's not even debatable as a "real" religion as the ancient, well-established ones are, but rather a get-rich quick scam made by a hack of a sci-fi author... but it's still a thorn in the side of society because of the awful things that cult does.

Just look at Thronestep! Razmir's cult is literally a pyramid scheme! :)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Travel isn't as common as it is in our Jet Age. Nor for that matter is mass media.

Also keep in mind that the bulk of Golarions's population does not have access to the setting books. Nor do they have awareness of planar matters and the afterlife.

So there may be some who doubt, but anyone who was there when he conquered a city in a single night, will tell you that he's not someone to be casually laughed off.

And before anyone interjects, what Razimir has done wasn't "routine for any high level wizard."

On the otherhand, his priests HAVE healed people. For the average man on the street, Razmir's as much a god as any.


Okay, fair enough on most of those points. The closest thing to mass-media is the printing press.

Not every high-level wizard is going to be politically ambitious enough to want to rule his very own mageocracy (politics takes up valuable spell-research time), but when it does happen, they seem to be quite capable in that venture (Geb, Nex... the Sodden lands had one...).

Silver Crusade Contributor

On top of that, the Gazetteer is extremely outdated as a source. I would recommend checking these against the Inner Sea World Guide, just in case.


He also has Sivanah's divine protection and alliance. There are a number of the Gods that became gods after being mortal with out using the start stone as well , Irori being the prime example (with a sizable amount of the unnamed Gaurandi pantheon iirc).


Gamerskum wrote:
There are a number of the Gods that became gods after being mortal with out using the start stone as well , Irori being the prime example (with a sizable amount of the unnamed Gaurandi pantheon iirc).

Right, but Razimir's whole pyramid scheme is built on his claim of having passed the test of the Starstone. He could have said he achieved immortality some other way. Heck, he could have claimed to have never been mortal in the first place (how many people knew this guy back before, and did he kill them all?), but instead was a "benevolent deity reaching down from the heavens to personally lead his flock to glory", but nooo.... he has to go and claim the one path of apotheosis that has an objectively provable indicator that any mortal with working eyes (or even a blind one with a stick) can discern if they go to the right city.

Real smart there, evil wizard guy, real smart...


Obviously Wisdom was Razmir's dump stat ;)

Paizo Employee

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Clearly Norgorber is lying, claiming that he ascended through the Starstone to slander our lord Razmir.

Shadow Lodge

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Well, considering that he has established a pretty long term ongoing faith to entirely dominate a nation and spread outwards says something. In world, very few people know/suspect he is lying. It's not like people know how the Test of the Starstone works, but he does have "priests" out there granting miracles now. Guess it must be legit.

Ad a few Adepts to the mix, and now that Oracles are a thing, it's not like people know the difference between a real Cleric and a false Oracle. A small handful of these "high priests" to walk the land will do diabolical wonders.

Grand Lodge

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Voin_AFOL wrote:
Gamerskum wrote:
There are a number of the Gods that became gods after being mortal with out using the start stone as well , Irori being the prime example (with a sizable amount of the unnamed Gaurandi pantheon iirc).

Right, but Razimir's whole pyramid scheme is built on his claim of having passed the test of the Starstone. He could have said he achieved immortality some other way. Heck, he could have claimed to have never been mortal in the first place (how many people knew this guy back before, and did he kill them all?), but instead was a "benevolent deity reaching down from the heavens to personally lead his flock to glory", but nooo.... he has to go and claim the one path of apotheosis that has an objectively provable indicator that any mortal with working eyes (or even a blind one with a stick) can discern if they go to the right city.

Real smart there, evil wizard guy, real smart...

Here's the thing.. Not having our advantage of reading the sourcebooks, there really isn't any great reason for someone to doubt Razmir's claims. His church may be a bit on the funky and scuzzy side, but if that was reason to disqualify someone as a divinity, a lot of temples in Golarion would be empty now.


LazarX wrote:
Here's the thing.. Not having our advantage of reading the sourcebooks, there really isn't any great reason for someone to doubt Razmir's claims.

I think the count of Varno might disagree. Of course, he's busy dealing with his vampire problem.


Gamerskum wrote:
He also has Sivanah's divine protection and alliance. There are a number of the Gods that became gods after being mortal with out using the start stone as well , Irori being the prime example (with a sizable amount of the unnamed Gaurandi pantheon iirc).

Wasn't Irori a monk or something in life? (I admittedly have not had time to read very much about him yet). But my point is monks become outsiders at Lvl 20 when they perfect themselves, and a number of outsiders (celestials and fiends and whatnot) have achieved divinity, so that may be a path to godhood.


I don't think I'd bring in real world religions in the context of Golarion.

Scientology may not be favored by many, but I don't think we should probably slander it on Paizo's boards either.

In regards to Razmir, many characters of extremely charismatics nature have gotten fanatic followers throughout the centuries.

It could simply be that Razmir is especially charismatic?


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Inner Sea Magic contains some goodies on Razmir (class and level, an archetype for his priests, etc.) that help to explain his rise to prominence.

The Cult Leader Mesmerist archetype in Occult Adventures has "Razmir" written all over it, for me. I could see Razmir being ret-conned into one.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GreyWolfLord wrote:

I don't think I'd bring in real world religions in the context of Golarion.

Scientology may not be favored by many, but I don't think we should probably slander it on Paizo's boards either.

In regards to Razmir, many characters of extremely charismatics nature have gotten fanatic followers throughout the centuries.

It could simply be that Razmir is especially charismatic?

It's also that he DELIVERS. He conquers a city by himself in ONE NIGHT, after having the dramatic touch of asking "politely" three times. His priests can cure the sick. They pretty much acheive the results that the priests of any god are usually asked to do. And again... the average population does not have access to the Inner Sea World Guide, nor the cynicism of the modern American.


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Landon Winkler wrote:
Clearly Norgorber is lying, claiming that he ascended through the Starstone to slander our lord Razmir.

Perhaps, but how do you know EITHER is telling the truth? Have you seen either of them in the same room? Maybe they're BOTH lying because Norgorber IS Razmir and Razmir IS Norgorber. That is, Razmir is some kind of fleshy avatar of Norgorber who got around the god-directly-interacting-with-mortals ban by pretending to be a mortal pretending to be a god! It's so unexpected IT HAS to be true!

Scarab Sages

You also have his highly missionary clergy going around the countryside "righting" problems.* The masked priests help the goodly townsfolk quell monster uprisings and solve mysterious fires and disappearances!

Really though, the PF novel Stalking the Beast touches a bit on how the Razmiri operate and become the de facto worship in the more susceptible corners of Golarion.

*Note: Problems often caused by Razmirans to begin with.


Conspiracy Hound wrote:
Landon Winkler wrote:
Clearly Norgorber is lying, claiming that he ascended through the Starstone to slander our lord Razmir.

Perhaps, but how do you know EITHER is telling the truth? Have you seen either of them in the same room? Maybe they're BOTH lying because Norgorber IS Razmir and Razmir IS Norgorber. That is, Razmir is some kind of fleshy avatar of Norgorber who got around the god-directly-interacting-with-mortals ban by pretending to be a mortal pretending to be a god! It's so unexpected IT HAS to be true!

Was their ever an "official" ban? Like "Divine Geneva Convention" style? Or did the gods just kinda have a general, unspoken agreement of "yeah, let's never do that again" after what happened to Arazni? I mean the sourcebook lore said they decided not to make personal appearances after the whole Rovagug incident for fear that the resulting holy wars would lead to worse Mutually Assured Destruction, but then Arazni showed up to Tar Baphon and that turned out to be a really bad idea.

So it doesn't seem so much of a strict ban, as "unwise thing they agree to avoid on general principle, unless they're feeling particularly foolhardy that day".

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Voin_AFOL wrote:


Was their ever an "official" ban? Like "Divine Geneva Convention" style? Or did the gods just kinda have a general, unspoken agreement of "yeah, let's never do that again" after what happened to Arazni? I mean the sourcebook lore said they decided not to make personal appearances after the whole Rovagug incident for fear that the resulting holy wars would lead to worse Mutually Assured Destruction, but then Arazni showed up to Tar Baphon and that turned out to be a really bad idea.

So it doesn't seem so much of a strict ban, as "unwise thing they agree to avoid on general principle, unless they're feeling particularly foolhardy that day".

In Arazni's case that's more of a matter of a herald. (important thing to note, Arazni was never divine, at most more on the order of a mythic NPC.) vastly and fatally underestimating their opponent.

The thing is the world is the great cosmopolitical chess game the gods play with each other. If they blow up the board through excessive personal intervention, no one wins. As Jacobs said, Iomedae has interacted excessively in the matter of the Worldwound, and a price may be paid for that someday.

Scarab Sages

Also, look at the other time Aroden intervened (other than sending Aranzi to get curbstomped), the guy he went to kill actually needed Aroden to kill him so he could become the Settings BBEG (Whispering Tyrant). When Sarenrae nuked Ninshabur, it unleashed the Spawn of Rovagug. Directly intervening has never ended up good for Golarion.

That being said, our glorious Living God Razmir has the power to avoid such apocalyptic nonsense. He is the one true and supreme deity. *thumps sap in his hand* ISN'T HE!?

Liberty's Edge

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Voin_AFOL wrote:

So how many much of Avistan that has heard of this guys smells b.s. about the whole "living god" thing?

Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer, page 50 says:

"Razmir claims to have used the Starstone in Absalom to achieve divinity, but any who have visited the City at the Center of the World know this to be false. The truth is totally suppressed in his realm, with “spreaders of sedition” facing a host of harsh sentences, from exile to execution.

Razmiran’s neighbors view the expansion of its cult into their lands as a plague. The willing defection of several border communities to the banner of the Living God underscores the danger posed by Razmir, pushing his neighbors ever closer to taking up arms against him."

This is because the Starstone Cathedral has 4 bridges - 1 for every successful attempt at apotheosis. Razmir does not have one, because, contrary to his claims, he never passed the test, therefore, he obviously cannot be a god. The real gods of Golarion are objectively provable - they grant their followers spells and domain powers and guidance and a place for their souls to rest in the afterlife. Razmir grants his lackeys nothing more than any other powerful wizard-king (like Nex or Geb) could.

I would contend that very few people would have caught on. Presuming Avistan largely cleaves to the equivalent of Europe's Late Medieval/Renaissance period, this would mean the majority of people rarely travel 20 miles away from the place of their birth. While I am sure most people of Avistan have heard of the Holy City of Absalom and the Ascension of the newer Gods, the vast majority of Avistan natives would not have traveled there unless they were nobles, diplomats, merchants/traders, pilgrims, or sailors working for the first four groups. I doubt the majority of people in Avistan have the time or disposable income to pack up and leave their home for months (or even years) to go to Absalom to determine the veracity of Razmir's claims.

The clergy and intelligentsia of various countries may be able to dispute Razmir's claims to divinity, but as for the other 99% of people who are ignorant of the Test of Starstone? Razmir appears to be a God. A frightening, tyrannical, controlling god more interested in worldly affairs than most, but a god nonetheless.

As for how Razmir is viewed by the rest of the world, I would say he, his country and his followers are all viewed more like North Korea, or the Islamic State, rather than Scientology, i.e., an extremely dangerous, insular, enigmatic force with sinister motives. Even if most of the surrounding countries and their leaderships doubt Razmir's divinity, they still do not know what he is. What is known is that Razmir is extremely powerful, ruthless, and is willing to spread his putative faith across the face of Golarion through coercion and violence. And his faith and following is growing by the day, because like the Islamic State or North Korea, they have a great propaganda and recruitment campaign that works upon the ignorant and unwary.

Scarab Sages

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Louis Lyons wrote:
Razmir appears to be a God. An amazing, benevolent, caring god actually interested in helping his followers, but a god nonetheless.

Fixed that for you :P

Liberty's Edge

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archmagi1 wrote:
Louis Lyons wrote:
Razmir appears to be a God. An amazing, benevolent, caring god actually interested in helping his followers, but a god nonetheless.
Fixed that for you :P

Razmir has a phenomenal Public Relations committee to be sure.

Shadow Lodge

Voin_AFOL wrote:
Was their ever an "official" ban? Like "Divine Geneva Convention" style? Or did the gods just kinda have a general, unspoken agreement of "yeah, let's never do that again" after what happened to Arazni? I mean the sourcebook lore said they decided not to make personal appearances after the whole Rovagug incident for fear that the resulting holy wars would lead to worse Mutually Assured Destruction, but then Arazni showed up to Tar Baphon and that turned out to be a really bad idea.

There is not, (that we know of). It's a bit more complicated, though. For most of the deities, Golarion is not the only world or even plane they care about. CC and Iomedae probably being the two main exceptions. So, besides them having a lot of other stuff to deal with, and keep in mind, for Golarion itself, we really only know about like two areas, the Inner Sea and Tian Xua. There is still the whole rest of the planet and we have no idea just how big or populated that is, might have it's own concerns, not to mention the other planets in and outside of that solar system, and then there are the infinite planes, etc. . .

So, in addition to all that, there is an understanding that hands on tampering with things is a bad idea. NOT because of what it means, but because it means that all the other deities that have an interest in that thing would also then be required to act in a hands on manner as well.

There are basically 3 known paths to divinity. One can simply attain it, as with Irori and Aroden, (if that's true). One can best a deity and essentially steal their power, such as with Lamashtu, or one can survive the Test of the Starstone. So far, only three individuals have succeeded at #3, and one of them isn't telling, one of them has no freakin' idea, and the last one basically had the Empyreal Lords do it for her (without her knowing).

Being that #1 is 1;1,000,000,000,000,000+, and #3 is highly depended on a slot being open and other unknown quantities, that basically leaves #2 as a possibility, which means most deities are rather weary of direct intervention, because it leaves them vulnerable. But it still happens.


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LazarX wrote:


In Arazni's case that's more of a matter of a herald. (important thing to note, Arazni was never divine, at most more on the order of a mythic NPC.) vastly and fatally underestimating their opponent.

The thing is the world is the great cosmopolitical chess game the gods play with each other. If they blow up the board through excessive personal intervention, no one wins. As Jacobs said, Iomedae has interacted excessively in the matter of the Worldwound, and a price may be paid for that someday.

I did not know that (that she wasn't fully divine). But then again, Golarion has so many deities and demigods running around, it's almost like trying to keep track of Game of Thrones characters.

Louis Lyons wrote:
Islamic State

Can we please not call them that? The problem with that name (and any permutation thereof, like "ISIS" or "ISIL") is that it dignifies an atrocity-committing death cult by lending them religious and political legitimacy that they have absolutely no right to. It claims in that name to represent all Muslims in the world - something that the vast majority of Muslims never consented to and obviously have a problem with. The actions of that group would actially make them apostates and heretics according to the Qur'an.

Secondly, they are not a "state". That would mean being a real sovereign nation, and using real troops (lawful combatants) not terrorists, and so forth. They have not been diplomatically recognized by any nation in the world. Rather, they have declared war on the world. They are nothing but murderous, raping, slaving, rampaging thugs with delusions of grandeur. Let's not spread their vile propaganda for them.

Also, there are a lot of women and girls in the world named after the goddess Isis that would rather their name not go the way of "Adolf" and be forever associated with a gang of genocidal barbarians.

A better way to refer to this group is "Daesh" - this is a term derived from the Arabic acronym of what they call themselves, and it roughly translates to "oppressor" or "trod underfoot". Bonus points because this terrorist group hates being called "Daesh" (kinda like how the government of Democratic People's Republic of being obviously none of those things Korea hates being called "North Korea").

Let's not call the bad guys by the ostentatious titles they want, mkay?.

This isn't just a meaningless argument over semantics. The way we speak influences the way we think. And the way we think influences the way we vote. Do you want this festering boil of ultraviolent degenerates to ever be recognized as as a sovereign state like North Korea is? Do you want their representatives enjoying diplomatic immunity riding in a limo to the U.N. building in NYC? You want a Daesh consulate down the street from where you live? Everything they stand for seeks to eradicate the progress of the last several thousand years of human civilization. And so, like the Nazis before them, they need to be fought and eliminated, not appeased for some delusional dream of "peace in our time".

This isn't the typical "let's compare something we don't like to Nazis" cliche - for those of you that know your history, in this case, the analogy fits eerily well. Consider how tired everyone from the outside has become of the long, bloody "foreign wars" fought in that region - and how much disenfranchisement that has caused among the people living there. Then along comes a charismatic demagogue with an extremist ideology of expansion through conquest that rallies these disenfranchised masses by promising them strength and retribution against those that wronged them. This group gathers military momentum, accumulating materiel, claiming victories, and taking ground, and committing unthinkable acts of enslavement and genocide against "undesirable" groups, while the major foreign powers that arguably have the ability to do something about it pussyfoot around the issue and nurse their wounds from the last struggle, not wanting to risk committing themselves to another bleak war.

Sound familiar?

Liberty's Edge

Voin_AFOL wrote:

Can we please not call them that? The problem with that name (and any permutation thereof, like "ISIS" or "ISIL") is that it dignifies an atrocity-committing death cult by lending them religious and political legitimacy that they have absolutely no right to. It claims in that name to represent all Muslims in the world - something that the vast majority of Muslims never consented to and obviously have a problem with. The actions of that group would actially make them apostates and heretics according to the Qur'an.

Secondly, they are not a "state". That would mean being a real sovereign nation, and using real troops (lawful combatants) not terrorists, and so forth. They have not been diplomatically recognized by any nation in the world. Rather, they have declared war on the world. They are nothing but murderous, raping, slaving, rampaging thugs with delusions of grandeur. Let's not spread their vile propaganda for them.

Also, there are a lot of women and girls in the world named after the goddess Isis that would rather their name not go the way of "Adolf" and be forever associated with a gang of genocidal barbarians.

A better way to refer to this group is "Daesh" - this is a term derived from the Arabic acronym of what they call themselves, and it roughly translates to "oppressor" or "trod underfoot". Bonus points because this terrorist group hates being called "Daesh" (kinda like how the government of Democratic People's Republic of being obviously none of those things Korea hates being called "North Korea").

Let's not call the bad guys by the ostentatious titles they want, mkay?.

This isn't just a meaningless argument over semantics. The way we speak influences the way we think. And the way we think influences the way we vote. Do you want this festering boil of ultraviolent degenerates to ever be recognized as as a sovereign state like North Korea is? Do you want their representatives enjoying diplomatic immunity riding in a limo to the U.N. building in NYC? You want a Daesh consulate down the street from where you live? Everything they stand for seeks to eradicate the progress of the last several thousand years of human civilization. And so, like the Nazis before them, they need to be fought and eliminated, not appeased for some delusional dream of "peace in our time".

This isn't the typical "let's compare something we don't like to Nazis" cliche - for those of you that know your history, in this case, the analogy fits eerily well. Consider how tired everyone from the outside has become of the long, bloody "foreign wars" fought in that region - and how much disenfranchisement that has caused among the people living there. Then along comes a charismatic demagogue with an extremist ideology of expansion through conquest that rallies these disenfranchised masses by promising them strength and retribution against those that wronged them. This group gathers military momentum, accumulating materiel, claiming victories, and taking ground, and committing unthinkable acts of enslavement and genocide against "undesirable" groups, while the major foreign powers that arguably have the ability to do something about it pussyfoot around the issue and nurse their wounds from the last struggle, not wanting to risk committing themselves to another bleak war.

Sound familiar?

I do not disagree with anything you have said. I referred to the terror group as "Islamic State" because that is what they are currently called by most people, in the same way that the DPRK is more commonly referred to as North Korea. I do not recognize their legitimacy, anymore than I recognize the legitimacy of, say, the Confederate States of America as ever having been a legitimate sovereign entity.

The reason I use them as a point of comparison is because I think that like IS/ISIS/ISIL/Daesh, Razmir behaves in an almost identical manner. Razmir relies on mindless fanatics at the front lines carrying out the bloody business fighting or recruiting for their God, when in reality they are being manipulated by an oligarchy of cynical megalomaniacs willing to sacrifice any number of sincere devotees to maintain their position of power and glory. And like IS/Daesh, Razmir's true power does not lie in his actual physical power, but in a magnificently well-crafted and choreographed propaganda campaign that continues to draw in a steady stream of recruits.


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Louis Lyons wrote:

I do not disagree with anything you have said. I referred to the terror group as "Islamic State" because that is what they are currently called by most people, in the same way that the DPRK is more commonly referred to as North Korea. I do not recognize their legitimacy, anymore than I recognize the legitimacy of, say, the Confederate States of America as ever having been a legitimate sovereign entity.

The reason I use them as a point of comparison is because I think that like IS/ISIS/ISIL/Daesh, Razmir behaves in an almost identical manner. Razmir relies on mindless fanatics at the front lines carrying out the bloody business fighting or recruiting for their God, when in reality they are being manipulated by an oligarchy of cynical megalomaniacs willing to sacrifice any number of sincere devotees to maintain their position of power and glory. And like IS/Daesh, Razmir's true power does not lie in his actual physical power, but in a magnificently well-crafted and choreographed propaganda campaign that continues to draw in a steady stream of recruits.

Likewise, not in disagreement, but you can surely understand why I take the opportunity to educate people on why the naming convention is significant.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Comparing DPRK or the daesh to the Confederates in any way is a bit harsh. Their were grave tragedies committed on both sides of that conflict, and very honorable people on both sides as well. Also, the CSA was recognized as a independent state/nation by other states/nations at that time.

Anyway, back to Razmir and off of dead political regimes of Terra please...


Nathan Nasif wrote:

Comparing DPRK or the daesh to the Confederates in any way is a bit harsh. Their were grave tragedies committed on both sides of that conflict, and very honorable people on both sides as well. Also, the CSA was recognized as a independent state/nation by other states/nations at that time.

Anyway, back to Razmir and off of dead political regimes of Terra please...

hear! hear!


Razmir just needs to work up some (more) mythic tiers until he is providing spells and then there will be no evidence against his claim.

Only need 3rd tier to start, and with the resources of a nation and a church he could probably find a way to get there.

Dark Archive

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DM Beckett wrote:

the last one basically had the Empyreal Lords do it for her (without her knowing).

Any idea what book thats mentioned in?

Shadow Lodge

Chronicles of the Righteous.

It says that the Empyreal Lords called their last Concordance (a sort of massive court that is outside of time) to debate and plan, not wanting the souls of the priests of Aroden to fall into someone else's hands, and very much wanting to place someone friendly to their ideas in the open slot. It's kind of portrayed as a big dirty secret, (?), but, at least some made sure she Ascended with the Test of the Star Stone.

Page 38. I tried to copy the text, but it's really weirdly coded.

Dark Archive

Okay thanks

Wow and when I thought my opinion of the character couldent sink any further.

Shadow Lodge

What do you mean? Iomedae is kind of an asshat NPC, but not irredeemable, and I think it has a lot to do with different writer's biases and personal preferences getting in too much.

Dark Archive

Well first there was the entire thing In wrath of the righteous with how she acts in the 5th book then there was that mythic mohrgs entry in one of the books (Which makes it clear that things did not go as well for Iolmodae as thought and then there is this as well.

Shadow Lodge

Well, we are talking about Wrath of the Righteous. . .

An AP that people begged Paizo to change before it was even done or put out.

Scarab Sages

I'm sure a 19th level wizard can find mythic ranks somehow.


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redpandamage wrote:
I'm sure a 19th level wizard can find mythic ranks somehow.

Maybe his GM won't let him?

Dark Archive

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Voin_AFOL wrote:

Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer, page 50 says:

"Razmir claims to have used the Starstone in Absalom to achieve divinity, but any who have visited the City at the Center of the World know this to be false.

And yet, it's not actually the case that the Starstone Cathedrel has a sign out front saying '4 million served!'

Quote:
This is because the Starstone Cathedral has 4 bridges - 1 for every successful attempt at apotheosis.

Iomedae, Norgorber and Cayden Cailean ascended by taking the Test of the Starstone. That's three, not four.

Arazni and Aroden aren't specifically listed as having taken the Test of the Starstone (Arazni's source of divinity is unclear, but Aroden was already at least a demigod when he raised the Starstone in the first place).

If someone is spreading the rumor that the four bridges across the chasm represent four people having passed the Test, then that's actually usable by Razmirites as evidence that he *has* passed the Test, along with Cayden, Iomedae and Norgorber.

And he can also twist things so that the bridges are considered unrelated to the passing of the Test, by suggesting that Arazni *and* Aroden used the Starstone to become divine, which would mean that there should be *five* bridges (and a sixth for Razmir himself). It's not like there's an instruction manual available on a placard outside of the Starstone Cathedral for anyone in Absalom to read (no matter how arrogant and presumptuous any individual resident of Absalom might be, to think that they somehow magically know who is or is not a god!).

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The real gods of Golarion are objectively provable - they grant their followers spells and domain powers and guidance and a place for their souls to rest in the afterlife. Razmir grants his lackeys nothing more than any other powerful wizard-king (like Nex or Geb) could.

Domains are also available to Druids who worship no god at all, just sort of generically 'nature.' Divine spells are available to lots of folk who aren't required to be god-worshippers, ranging from Druids and Rangers and Paladins to Oracles and Adepts and Shamans.

In-setting, 'miracles' are a dime a dozen, and ultimately don't 'prove' anything, since all of them are doable by an atheist Oracle, and many of them are replicable with arcane magic. (A wish spell or genie or demon-granted wish, if nothing else!)

And, apart from arcane sight, which is *way* out of reach for the average commoner, there's no way to tell an arcane spell from a divine spell, so entire communities could be served by a 'priest' who happens to be a Bard, and never know that those cure light wounds she's casting are arcane spells, and not divine spells.

Thanks to a half dozen other classes being able to heal (from Adept to Druid to Ranger to Bard to Alchemist to Oracle), and the average person having little or no idea what makes an Oracle or Adept or Druid greatly different from a Cleric (since even Clerics can be very different, thanks to Domain selection or what type of energy they channel), it's entirely possible that the vast majority of folk are in the dark about Razmir's status.

The premise of the setting is that many people completely believe Razmir's big lie, and assumes that 99% of the inhabitants of Golarion don't actually possess the setting books, and don't know the great secrets of the setting. It's entirely possible that residents of Qadira or Osirion or the Linnorm Kings Lands haven't even *heard* of Razmiran, for that matter, since he's kind of a local deal. They certainly wouldn't know his class, level or alignment, since he doesn't make daily updates to his Facebook page for the entire world to read about.

Where it would be 'common knowledge' that he's a big phony is if some Cleric of a real god asked their divine patron through commune or the like, 'Is Razmir really a god?' But, without meta-gaming, why exactly would someone ask this question? Logically, if that's the sort of question they'd ask about Razmir, then they would also be asking about every other god in the setting, including the rest of the big 20, the various lesser gods (like Hanspur or Gyronna), a hundred odd Demon Lords, Archdevils, Daemon Horsemen, Empyreals, Elder God, Elemental Evils, etc. many of who are 'kinda/sorta' gods, in that they can grant spells and domains like 'real gods.' So, some kind of insane Cleric, who has pestered his or her god with dozens of commune spells, asking for verification about the divine status of a hundred or more gods, might find out that one of that long list, Razmir, is a big fake. (And that quite a few of the 'gods' worshipped in old Sarkoris were also not actual gods...)

But that Cleric would literally be insane (and their god, presumably, the soul of patience, and their player, the soul of a meta-gamer, asking questions that nobody in-setting would think to ask).

Gods & Magic also lays down some intriguing hints that Sivanah, the goddess of illusion and mystery, is deliberately fueling the myth of Razmir's divinity. The one magic item for the Razmiran faith, for instance, is created using an ability to cast shadow conjuration spells to mimic divine conjuration-healing spells, unique to Sivanah's clergy! (Relevant info under the Sivanah entry on p. 47 and the Mask of the Living God entry on p. 57.)

So, not only could Razmir's big lie have traction in the setting, it seems to be getting some backup from an actual god, and not just any god, but a goddess well versed in deception!

Which begs the question, why? Maybe she thinks it's funny. Maybe she's testing to see if someone can become a god the old-fashioned pre-Starstone way (like Irori, Nethys and Urgathoa did). Maybe Razmiran's her highest of high priests, not only tricking others into thinking he's divine, but having been tricked by his own goddess into believing his own story!

Having an entire nation that is *completely unknowingly* following a fake faith set up by the goddess of Trickery is perhaps the greatest trick a non-devil ever pulled...

I do wonder how far Razmir has gone in the setting up of fake clergy. Does he have a holy animal? A holy weapon? (The quarterstaff and dagger have the benefit of being usable by any class. The rapier or whip might fit his 'portfolio' of 'law, luxury, obedience and the land of Razmiran itself, and are both usable by Bards, who would be the best ever 'fake Clerics' able to heal and inspire others.)

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