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I read somewhere (I think it was here) someone mentioned that they only played with 11 classes and 7 races (which is the setup from CORE)
-but they picked from all the books, and agreed before starting a campaign which classes and races were in their game.
So over the weekend I've been thinking about that premise and compiled my own list of which classes I would use, if I were to 'remake' the standard so to speak (maybe for our next campaign).
Here's my list:
- Bard
- (Unchained) Barbarian
- Bloodrager
- Brawler
- Cavalier
- Druid
- Investigator
- Oracle
- Paladin
- Ranger
- (Unchained) Rogue
- Sorcerer
- Witch
...Aaand it seems I've gone over my self-imposed limit :/
-Maybe I should cut the druid and the barbarian ... hmm?
I tried to pick the classes that are:
- fun to play,
- have unique abilities,
- don't have a solution to everything (encouraging teamplay)
- most have enough skills to be involved with the whole game, not just the combat.
- few of them do the 'same' thing as the others
I also avoided some classes that have themes or mechanics that I don't like or don't consider positive additions to my idea of the game.
What are your thoughts on such a list?
What would your list be if you were to 'slim down' the avalible material to what you consider it's core? and why?
As a sidenote: When looking through the classes I noticed that 9th lvl arcane casters always gets 1/2 BAB while 9th lvl divine caster always gets 3/4 BAB - Why is that?!
If it's supposed to be a 'balancing act' because the arcane spellists are more powerful then - I don't agree. What do you think?
See (and maybe perform Necromancy upon) this thread.
To keep: Barbarian, Bard, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer. They have to stay.
I'm perfectly happy to keep Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard around, leaving a core that trade the Monk for the Oracle.
7 races - the dwarf, the elf, the halfling, the half-orc, the human, the goblin. Possibly the full orc for the finish, possibly the gnome.
Simple tastes, really.
To recreate the tropes in the Core Rulebook I'd go with:
Alchemist - Brand new trope.
Arcanist - Wizard substitute. I'm happy to delay their spells by 1 level.
Barbarian - Savage Warrior. No changes really needed.
Bard - Bard trope. With archetypes can fit a wide range of tropes.
Brawler - Monk/Fighter substitute. Can fit unarmed fighter or priestly trope with roleplaying.
Cavalier - Fighter substitute. Give fighters a few more bells and whistles.
Inquisitor - Avenger trope
Rogue (Unchained) - No real changes needed.
Slayer - Spell-less Ranger
Warpriest - Paladin/Cleric/Monk substitute.
Witch - Nature shaman substitute.
I'm not a fan of animal companions (which often don't get used if the game is played realistically) so I'd be happy to remove those from the game.
For races I'd swap out half-orcs for tieflings. Same tropes, but a more savoury background that doesn't raise questions of "We kill orcs on sight. Why are we taking the risk with these half-orcs which could have been raised by orcs?"
I'd personally swap out the Investigator with a Magus, and drop the Bloodrager, and maybe drop the Cavalier and maybe slot in an Inquisitor and maybe a Swashbuckler. You might possibly be able to get away with replacing Druid and Ranger with Hunter, but possibly not.
I could accurately describe the Cavalier as a Paladin with weaker class features, worse saves, and more situational use. Granted, the Cavalier is excellent on horseback and against non-evil enemies, but falls short with saves and just seems a bit flat in general. The Investigator has alchemy, but most of his abilities are for skillmonkeying, and between the Bard and the Rogue, you completely have that covered. Additionally, Investigator combat skills stink. The Bloodrager is part Barbarian and part Sorcerer, you already have both a Barbarian and a Sorcerer. The casting is interesting and fun, and bloodlines are awesome, but there's something unique about Barbarian crunch and d12s and Invulnerable Rager. I'd probably keep regular Barbarian instead of Unchained, just because of buff-stacking (heroism and rage don't stack ;_; ). Inquisitor is kinda like a Bard, but also fills in the Cleric-shaped hole I've noticed in your lineup. Inquisitor is very well-built and can be built WIS-SAD or just as a mostly martial character with good saves. Additionally, you don't need to be Lawful Good. Magus has a unique bash/cast/blast ability that isn't really replicable by anything else. It also fits in where Bloodrager would be, a bit, and also is INT-focused, so you'll have skill ranks.
Interesting thoughts.
-I think the magus is annoying and seem to be difficult for some players to grasp.(anecdote: had a player retrain into a magus and I found out 2 months later that he'd misunderstood how all the arcana/spellstrike/spell combat - move/standard/swift/immidiate - stuff worked.
It made me annoyed at the class - not the player, I know he wasn't trying anything)
so I actually slotted in the Bloodrager instead of the magus, finding his mechanics more fun and getting the impression that he filled the 'martial with something extra'-niche that many like.
- I picked the Cavalier because he seemed more fun and interesting than plain old fighter (poor guy, can't catch a break),
he has more skill points, an actual focus of his abilities and I find him more evocative than 'dude that hits things with plank-shaped metal-thingy'.
-I think the inqisitor has a mood I don't like
(all players I'v met that have considered the class start talking about 'breaking the rules for the greater good' and asking how torture works before they've even finished the character sheet - I think it might just be the name ...)
also the inquisitor is a part of a group of classes I'm starting to Loathe: the 3/4 BAB, 6th lvl casting, have aton of small class abilities to keep track of, seems to be made for doing things WITHOUT the party (I mean why do you even play Rpg's, man?).
(just for the record: the Bard is fine - I now he should be everything I hate, but he isn't - because he is a teamplayer and adds to the group)
-for the same reason I didn't add the gunslinger, I also didn't add the swashbuckler: don't like the fluff, don't think they are needed - the unchained rogue is a dex focused warrior, why would I add another class that does his thing in combat but better?
(out of combat is a different thing but ... you know .. players)
-I think the Ranger is awesome, one of the best made classes. he gets to stay.
1 thing I did notice was "damn, that's a lot of charisma based caster in there" and I wish I had some alternatives ...
-the Wizard and cleric were left at the station because, well, a lot of things: having access to your whole class spellist is something I don't like personally,
it just makes the caster into a showstealing swiss-army-caster
(last game I played we actually did rename the druid into that)
for the same reason I'm leery about the druid, and will probably drop him, but what other wisdom-casters are there?
what's your list, My Self?
To recreate the tropes in the Core Rulebook I'd go with:
Arcanist - Wizard substitute. I'm happy to delay their spells by 1 level.
Barbarian - Savage Warrior. No changes really needed.
Bard - Bard trope. With archetypes can fit a wide range of tropes.
Brawler - Monk/Fighter substitute. Can fit unarmed fighter or priestly trope with roleplaying.
Cavalier - Fighter substitute. Give fighters a few more bells and whistles.
Cleric - Cleric/Monk substitute.
Magus - Swordmage trope
Rogue (Unchained) - No real changes needed.
Slayer - Spell-less Ranger
Warpriest - Paladin substitute.
Witch - Nature shaman substitute.I'm not a fan of animal companions (which often don't get used if the game is played realistically) so I'd be happy to remove those from the game.
For races I'd swap out half-orcs for tieflings. Same tropes, but a more savoury background that doesn't raise questions of "We kill orcs on sight. Why are we taking the risk with these half-orcs which could have been raised by orcs?"
I agree with you on Animal companions, letting the ranger have the choice seems balanced but the rest of them can go die in a fire.
Your reason for the brawler and the cavalier are the same as mine (it's nice to agree on the internett somtimes as well!)I like your thoughts on the witch substituting for potentially the druid...
I'm fairly certain Wizard falls under the "have a solution to everything"
My Self - those were LuxuriantOak's criteria for his list, not the suggested criteria for everyone else's.
Still, if that becomes the exercise - Ranger, Druid, and Fighter go off into a corner and come back with the Slayer and the Hunter. Don't ask me what they were doing there. Downgrading the Cleric to the Inquisitor works, but it also marks the death of the prepared caster - so he becomes a Warpriest instead. Vancian nostalgia also lets in the Witch, to keep the art alive. The Cavalier also joins the team, and the Rogue is more marginal, but still stays.
Barbarian, Bard, Cavalier, Hunter, Oracle, Paladin, Rogue, Slayer, Sorcerer, Warpriest, Witch.
I agree with you on Animal companions, letting the ranger have the choice seems balanced but the rest of them can go die in a fire.
Agreed. Although I like my spell-less rangers, hence the slayer. Amending the list you quote (I edited my post as you were editing your post) I'd probably let the warpriest stand in for the cleric as well. It really is a versatile class from a flavour and mechanics standpoint (introduce an archetype to allow unarmoured warpriests as well) and swap in the alchemist which is a class I really do like from both a mechanics and flavour standpoint. (Also swapped out magus for inquisitor. Magus's seem problematic from the limited experience I've had with them. A fine class to include, but not necessarily a core rulebook class).
Your reason for the brawler and the cavalier are the same as mine (it's nice to agree on the internett somtimes as well!)
Yup. As powerful as the fighter class is, it doesn't provide the most interesting toys to play with.
I like your thoughts on the witch substituting for potentially the druid...
Druids really do european shaman characters really, really well. The witch can do those equally well (IMO) but can also do african shamans much better than a druid (no mistletoe for you, witch!). It also does the whole "sold my soul to a fiend" trope well as well. There's a couple of problematic hexes that when spammed make things boring. But overall the class is rather well done (if somewhat underpowered when it comes to spells).
Slayer
Magus
Bloodrager
Oracle
Witch
Gunslinger
Bard
Sorcerer
Summoner
Inquisitor
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Yon Classes Of Istoria
Alchemist - Somebody has to be making all those potions, after all!
Arcanist - What can I say, I think this was a great class. Too bad I never play the arcane caster.
Brawler - When you wanna just punch someone in the mouth as hard as you can.
Fighter (with Combat Stamina) - It's as close to MP as you're gonna get for martials Pathfinder.
Inquisitor - The last one of these I played was literally an unkillable juggernaut. Besides, I like the inquisitor's spellcasting and abilities better than the cleric's. (But I'm lazy.)
Kineticist - You too can be a wannabe Super Sayajin or Sailor Guardian or have a STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND or ninjutsu that they explain in every detail in every episode of Naruto because the writers think you're stupid.
Magus - This is because it can channel magic through a sword like Final Fantasy V's mystic knight. Mystic knights are awesome. Magi are awesome.
Mesmerist - Good tricks for great friends! XD
Paladin - In a realm where an adventuring party is expected to be champions against evil, you are THE champion against evil.
Sorcerer - So your great-great-great-(.....)-grandmother was promised to a dragon's harem, or something. You get to reap all the benefits!
Unchained Rogue - This rogue's sooooo much better than the actual rogue.
Martial: Brawler, fighter+, rogue+
Arcane: Arcanist, magus, sorcerer
Divine: Inquisitor, paladin
Psychic: Kineticist, mesmerist
Alchemic: Alchemist
& Races of Istoria
Humans - .....You know what humans are.
Dwarves - Short, fat, really drunk, have beards woven into intricate braids that (they say) tell their family's history, really good with axes and spears and crossbows. You know these too.
Elves - Taller than humans, really good with bows. Come in three varities, each more or less have the same game stats: Summer elves (ye standard slightly xenophobic high elf), autumn elves (yer less xenophobic actually kinda friendly wood elf), and winter elves (the elves everybody else hates, except in the north pole, these elves actually have the same pale skin tone as the other elves. Otherwise, they're dark elves.)
Goblins - Short, stupid, green-skinned, illiterate, can eat anything, are sexually attracted to fire, worship "The Dark One," which is a twelve foot tall man made entirely out of fire, have no words for "victory" or "win" in the Goblin language (the closest they can get is "not-lose.")
Tieflings - Human-sized, horned heads, tolerant of fire, descended from demons. (allegedly.)
Catfolk - More common in the western nations of Seigyoku and Xianghua, they're agile, really good with combat claws, and resemble your typical anime catboy/girl. (And not the one from the Advanced Race Guide. Good grief.)
Sylphs - Tall, thin, willowy, they might be a little more attuned to psychic energies than other races on Istoria. (They have pointy ears like elves, except elf ears stick out to the side like anime elf ears. Sylph ears go up a bit like Leonard Nimoy's Zachary Quinto's. Yes, my homebrew world's a bit anime-inspired. Shush.)
Given some of these class lists, I wonder why fighters get so much hate being left behind. Monks I can see (lots of complaints about making them work), as well as the full casters (boom).
Given some of these class lists, I wonder why fighters get so much hate being left behind. Monks I can see (lots of complaints about making them work), as well as the full casters (boom).
If you look, I think you'll find quite a few entire threads about why people are disappointed with Fighter. Although one was just locked, there are still about five active and dozens archived.
I think I might be the one referenced by the OP, however I know I am not the first or only person that likes to run like this.
For my most recent campaign world the classes and races were:
Magus
Wizard
Alchemist
Investigator
Witch
Oracle
Gunslinger
Barbarian
Cavalier
Slayer
Brawler
Magic in this world tends to be formulaic and those that don't follow such tenets tend to be "weird" and suffer from the raw magic.
The races are:
Dwarf
Ratfolk
Elf (bonus to Cha instead of Int)
Nagaji
Merfolk
Android
Human
The dwarfs tend to like bright colors (to contrast with the dark of the mines and mountains they are use to) and are very family oriented. The ratfolk tend more to the hills but also tend to be clannish. Ratfolk and dwarfs tend to make natural allies.
The elves and Nagaji are jungle folk Barbarians, oracles, and brawlers tend to come from their numbers.
Humans and Androids are new to the planet while merfolk have been in the oceans and rivers for a very long time. Their nomadic ways and ability to reach areas the other races reside in makes them the natural traders of the world.
I really like this idea and I love the OP's list minus the Druid which i find to be a horrible class for players, Not mechanically but rp wise. May use this idea myself in the future.
OP, what is your list of races? Will you cherry pick the races to best suit the classes or for the flavor of your world?
Let's see:
Arcanist - Sorry, but I can't live without my precious full casters, and Arcanist is easier to play than a wizard.
Magus - Arcane Melee gish.
Cleric - See Arcanist.
Inquisitor - Divine Melee not-really gish.
Bard - Very spoony.
Investigator - Can't let the Alchemist ruleset go to waste.
Paladin - Too iconic, also a really good class.
Barbarian - For anyone who wants to play a pure martial. Feel free to refluff rage into focus or something else, as needed.
Kineticist - I like warlocks.
Medium - I also like binders.
Bloodrager - For people who want to fight in a different way.
Another world I would like to play some time would be
Barbarian
Bloodrager
Druid
Oracle
Shaman
Summoner
Witch
Ranger
Sorcerer
Slayer
Hunter
As you can see magic tends to be from "outside" and raw, but plentiful and dangerous.
Races would probably be:
Orc, Halfling, Grippli, Vanara, Human, Elf, Half elf, Half orc
Leaves me one over.
Finally I've always kind of wanted:
Races:
Aasimar, Tiefling, Oread, Ifrit, Suli, Slyph, Undine
With the classes of:
bard, alchemist, investigator, magus, Hunter, Monk, Ninja, Unchained Rogue, Inquisitor, Skald, and summoner(unchained)
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In the campaign I'm running the classes available are:
Arcanist
Bloodrager
Druid
Inquisitor
Investigator
Kineticist
Oracle
Unchained Rogue(must take VMC casting)
Slayer(must have stygian or VMC casting)
Skald
Witch
For reference VMC casting gives up feats like normal VMC but gives 4 levels of spells of any 2/3 or full casting class(and 1/2 caster level) over the normal VMC levels.
The races allowed were
Beast-Blooded(Human without bonus feat, but with scaling fast healing and weakness to fire)-can't be a full caster
Elf
Dark-Blooded(Human without bonus feat, but with scaling fast healing, DR and weakness to divine magic)- can't be a full or 2/3 caster and can't use or benefit from divine magic
Half-Elf
Human
Gnome
Vanara
Everyone is pretty balanced, as the slayer and bloodrager took the Beast and Dark blooded races respectively, the rogue chose to be a vanara and use VMC casting to be a pretty good bard/rogue, and the investigator is an elf that I let use my fixed steel hound archetype that gets gun stuff at level 1 and scales to be useful.
I really like this idea and I love the OP's list minus the Druid which i find to be a horrible class for players, Not mechanically but rp wise. May use this idea myself in the future.
OP, what is your list of races? Will you cherry pick the races to best suit the classes or for the flavor of your world?
Thanks! I agree with you on the Druid in retrospect, he gets voted off the island. Might replace him with Inquisitor -but I think that class has too much stuff going on to be playable for many players (mine at least).
To be honest I haven't really considered races that much.
My personal biases are:
Gnomes are dumb, I don't know why I can't wrap my head or heart around them, but I just get annoyed.
Maybe it's because I'm a 'Real Serrrrioussss RolePlayer(tm)' and I don't want sillyness in my 'Very Seeeeeeeriousssss And Important Game' - but I am what I am, so they have to go.
Elves are actually ok, but because of Legolas (f+!* that guy) and too much "we are the most awesomest of the awesome and we are so cool and special and our s@*# don't stink and we are just plain better than everybody"-sillyness from most dominant popular fantasy sources, I just get ulcers thinking about them.
All the "half-something" races I find annoying, like My Self said
If you want to be a half-elf, RP a half-elf
also I am kinda leery about for example Half-orcs where a lot of players' backgrounds will be a byproduct of, or decendants of; rape, which I think is not cool.
In my current campaign the races availible to the players were:
- Humans ( because)
- Dwarves (xenophobes, stole lots from Dragon Age when making lore)
- Hobgoblin (former slaves, now underclass in society - to bring in some racial tensions)
- Tengu (japanese-asian mishmash culture)
- Half elf (although I might as well have called them Tieflings, becuse that's what they are in that lore.)
If I were to start a new campaign I would keep:
- Humans (all half-this and that and other planetouched can be feats or even ... Roleplaying!)
- Dwarves (it's a classic, and I have no problems with them - it would be nice to somehow persuade myself and the players that not all of them are drunks with scottish accents, but I don't really belive in miracles)
- Hobgoblins (they are FUN it seems, and I think at least one player will play them at any chance he gets from now on)
1 race of weird animal something to represent another culture, don't know which one - I'd probably ask the players (like I did with the Tengu)
And probably add:
- Halflings (having a small sized race seems important to some, and I'm warming up to them lately)
Aaand that's it.
When I make such a list I consider how these folk interact and I'll admit I've never understood or appreciated the 'everything and the kitchen sink-bazar of races all gathered in one place without killing each other'-thing.
This is also because when I make a setting I start at the center - where the players start from, and I flesh out that region or country.
Then I add new things as we play and it is needed- So in the beginning I don't even know myself how the world looks like or what kind of cultures and races populate it.
Now I'm not saying there might be other Races in the world, they might meet and interact with them - but they will be 'the other' for them.
Some characters can even change races if the story progresses in such a way.
Ex: In my current campaign one human found out he was a decendant of a powerful vampire and 'has turned to the dark side' becoming a dhampyr mechanicly, another - the half elf had 'unlocked his birthright' and through several quests is gaining the "Demonic, lage-sized Fey"-race that I'm cooking up (my elves are complete, utter, bastards - Thanks Richard Morgan)
As a sidenote: I am turning around and considering the idea of allowing ALL races for my next campaign, simply to break my own patterns and challenge myself to think in a new way. Maybe even ask the player to help make part of the setting ("So, you're a Ratfolk? ok, tell me about them - how do they fit into the rest of the world? what is their culture like? you decide - but I'll change some things if it gets too silly")
My thoughts on classes here.
My thoughts on races here (more generally, you might want to perform Necromancy on this thread).
Actually would like to update both a bit, but not going to do it at 04:34 while posting from a phone . . . .
My thoughts on classes here.
My thoughts on races here (more generally, you might want to perform Necromancy on this thread).
Actually would like to update both a bit, but not going to do it at 04:34 while posting from a phone . . . .
Is there some way to merge the threads? that would probably be best (I honestly don't know)
IMHO:
Martial types:
Barbarian (works, doesn't need unchained)
Unchained Rogue (yeessss, it works; the skill unlocks could use some work.)
Cavalier/Samurai (we need a civilized soldier-type, and Dreamscarred Press is probably outside the scope)
Magic types
Oracle (a great variety of concepts possible, & healing needs to be possible; probably cut down the spell list a fair bit, including merging some condition removals)
Magus (magic warrior is something which needs covering, & bloodrager isn't magic enough)
Bard (best support type)
Witch (a full arcane caster without most of the gamebreaking stuff. Maybe make the slumber hex 1 round to activate.)
Catch-all NPC class
Expert
And that's enough to start with.
For races, Human, Dwarf, Elf and Halfling, and include one odd heritage option for each.
Not that I'm likely to do all the work to make this fly, but if I did I'd do something like the above.
Took me a while to think about this
Non-casters:
Slayer- the 'tons of feats' martial plus the skill guy
Swashbuckler- The dex-based martial
Arcanes-
Bloodrager- counterpart to the paladin, sadly replaces barb
Bard- refluff them as closer to Red Mages
Sorcerer- nice counterpart to the witch
Witch- still a full caster but far less spell shenanigans available than wizards
Divines:
Paladin- modify to be any good/antipaladins [rename to blackguard or reaver or something cool like that] any evil
Hunter- The animal companion character, also only nature-caster
Inquisitor- Divine counterpart to the bard
Oracle or Warpriest- I'm still deciding this one. Oracle has pros for being a spontaneous caster, warpriest has a niche for filling the punchy guy/suboptimal weapon role.
Alchemy:
Alchemist- might up the number of bombs/day they can do to make them able to be a faux-warlock
Investigator- for someone wanting to play a rogue but not wanting a slayer
---------
Races:
Humans- because it's a default
Elves- but no half-elves
Dwarves- another fantasy core trope
Nagaji- Replaces the half-orc for the monstrous/bestial race, and forms a nice trio with elf and dwarf with there being boosts to all 6 stats represented among them
Gnomes- Small race without a dex bonus, that's rare
Ratfolk- I like these guys for 'sneaky small race' much better than halflings
Wyvarans- I like kobolds, but these are much more in line with adventuring race needs. Again forms a power-trio to have bonuses to all 3 mental stats available and while there's not a boost to str here in the small races, at least the wyvaran doesn't have a penalty.
I think instead of including only 11 classes and 7 races I'd instead exclude that many.
For races, I like human and plane touched:
Human
Aasimar
Tiefling
Ifrit
Oread
Sylph
Undine
Alternately, you go with a no-humans thing
CatfolkLizardfolk
Vanara
Gnoll
Ratfolk
Tengu
Kitsune? kinda doubling up on the canines, then