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For a long time, I have pointlessly and even pettily lamented the excess of martial/caster threads on these forums. I believe it is time that I dedicated this energy constructively. Behold, the . No longer need you stumble about on these forums, creating new threads with no regard as to what has come before! You can refer to this thread, and wisely craft your discussions knowing the precedent that has already been set.
I also believe the Index has one other major use. Recently, complaints were mounted asserting that one side of the debate is making the vast majority of these threads. Other claims were heard that the only people arguing at all are a small number of recurring faces. The truth of these two statements can be easily examined via the Index.
Feel free to add to this list, with the following guidelines:
Title: Put title here. Place [locked] beside it if the thread has been locked.
Size: A thread must be at least ten posts to qualify for the Index. State the current post count here.
Last Updated: State when the thread's most recent post was at the time of posting.
Formatting: If the thread is started by someone who does not believe in the disparity, post its link in italics. If the thread is started by someone who believes in the disparity, post its link in bold. If the original poster does not espouse any opinion, or if the thread did not start out intending to debate anything but was later derailed, or if you can't tell, use no special formatting.
Short Summary: Explain the basic point of the thread, and clarify whether or not the discussion was on-topic or a derail.
Threads are sorted by the "Last Updated" line, starting with the most dead threads and working their way up. Please think carefully before going to read one of the older threads—do not necromance if you can help it. Instead, quote posts you wish to respond to and post your responses on a more active relevant thread.
(threads designed with the aim of modifying the rules to mitigate the "disparity")
Why not let melee make full attacks after moving?
Size: 282 posts
Last Updated: 11/27/10
A simple notion for modifying the disparity, this thread quickly became a discussion as to the scale of the idea's real benefits, along with a forum (used as the dictionary word, not for the "messageboard" meaning) for ideas for modifications. Possibly one of the first of its kind.
What is the Caster vs. Martial Disparity?
Size: 19 posts
Last Updated: 3/1/12
An older thread listing problems with martials and casters and suggesting solutions.
Caster / non-caster problem. OK, but why?
Size: 740 posts
Last Updated: 3/16/12
This may be the original "Okay, let's make fighters wuxia" thread. Contains realism talk, 4E chatter, this thread has it all. I highly recommend perusing it, despite its age, if you want to gain insight on why the "WDaNWHLFLL" thread exists.
Martial characters should have nice things Part II - I am not a computer: Beyond Binary
Size: 40 posts
Last Updated: 3/5/14
Weirdly, a sequel that drew smaller crowds. Mostly free of arguments, this follow-up is trying to give martials "nice things" that aren't just bigger numbers.
Martial characters should have nice things Part I: What should martial characters be able to do?
Size: 1,044 posts
Last Updated: 3/27/14
Part I? Try Part X, buddy. Or something around there. Suggestions for rogues and martials to give them "nice things". Naturally, it falls into arguing—guys, can we just learn that the phrase "nice things" never helps the thread stay on-topic? This thread is worth reading, but you'll be seeing a lot of what we've been getting lately. And in case you're not convinced that we're in a terrifying loop on this whole issue, let me share with you this:
"Oh good, we've already gotten to complaints about keeping anime out of D&D. Does that mean it's time to link this image?" —Vivianne Laflamme
Should martials be buffed... or casters brought down? [locked]
Size: 484 posts
Last Updated: 7/21/14
"So, I swear I am not trying to start a flame war here." So how'd that work out for you?
I kid, sort of. I do think that this is an important question and I think this thread is likely worth some careful examination by those houseruling content—enough so that I leave it in the Creative section. But it's dead now.
Would it help to give non-casters mythic tiers at high levels?
Size: 49 posts
Last Updated: 1/18/15
C'mon, Blake, this was only a few months ago! Giving martials Mythic tiers is indeed nothing new, though this thread was markedly less productive. That said, this thread is actually accomplishing something the newer version has not: It is tackling, much more directly, what effect Mythic actually has and whether or not it's too much or not enough. I do not recommend rezzing this one—head to Blake's "Martials want nice things too - new idea, maybe." to properly discuss the matter—but it's definitely worth reading and referring to.
The D-team; A discussion on adventuring with no full casters.
Size: 202 posts
Last Updated: 6/16/15
A discussion on what a party of all-martials plays like. Not much arguing in here—I give it an enthusiastic thumbs-up!
What spells should martials be able to do?
Size: 39 posts
Last Updated: 7/14/15
An attempt at productivity examining how the fighter might be improved, this time by giving them Extraordinary abilities identical to spells. Some derailing attempts were made, but this thread mostly ignored debate and remained productive. What a breath of fresh air.
What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?
Size: 744 posts
Last Updated: 7/16/15
Ah, WDaNWHLFLL, an old favorite of mine. This thread is also aimed at modifying the martial classes, though more oriented towards posting flavorful narratives imagining what a non-mage "could" do than posting detailed rules. You can see an example on the 24th post. It has, however, been so frequently derailed by arguments that it only barely scrapes into the "Creative" section.
Martials want nice things too - new idea, maybe.
Size: 246 posts
Last Updated: 7/17/15
A thread proposing mythic tiers be given to martials to balance them out. Contains a fair bit of debate, and appears to be almost fully derailed by the end. I'll let it stay on Creative only because it started out quite densely so, even if it lost focus later on.
If we were to "fix" the system so martials do "get nice things", what would we do?
Size: 834 posts
Last Updated: 7/19/15
A thread originally designed to be Creative that quickly slid into Argumentative. Now, I hate to get opinionated in the Index, but this sad slide was deliberately encouraged by the moderators by locking this thread's "Sister Thread", 'Isn't it time to stop saying "Martials never get nice things"?'. So we get another argument thread, basically. There is some productivity in here, though, and I would recommend checking it out—unlike many of the threads linked in the Index, this one remains active and current as of the time of this post.
(threads designed to host debates on the subject; also includes threads that were noticeably derailed)
Wizards vs Melee [locked]
Size: 1,514 posts
Last Updated: 12/11/10 (heh, countdown)
"What is this thread even about? Really. 1500 posts, and it's never going to be anything but bickering because it never was anything but bickering." —Evil Lincoln, pre-wanting to stare the medusa in the face.
Is Pathfinder "Caster Edition"? [locked]
Size: 669 posts
Last Updated: 12/30/2010
The Big Damn "Compare Editions" Thread. Wanna bet there's 4E arguing in there?
"I'm also locking this thread, because I think it's become clear what the sides are and that nobody is going to be swayed by any further discussion." —Ross Byers
A Simple Proposition: an Argument Against Martial Inferiority
Size: 212 posts
Last Updated: 7/15/12
Another older thread, ASPaAAMI (it's pronounced like "Asami") examines the current system first within the context of older editions, then points out the importance of the overall party. After stating his/her case, the OP invites others to craft single-class parties to "put our monies where our mouths are".
Why all the Fighter hate?
Size: 1,672 posts!
Last Updated: 4/25/12
Sort of a classic, as you can tell from the length. This was back in the days when the forums were smaller and a single thread could contain a whole argument—oh, wait, look at all the other threads on this subject from that year. Oh, well. This thread started humbly and quickly grew into a true monster of debate. This is the go-to thread for fighter discourse, folks.
Caster-Martial Disparity Battleground - No Crying.
Size: 1,383 posts
Last Updated: 6/19/12
The most aggressive, confrontational thread to actually achieve its purpose pretty well. I recommend this one if you really just want to hash it out. It's also a decent read. Just remember: "No personal attacks, nothing below the belt. If someone goes limp, or taps out, the fight is over." —Evil Lincoln
Fighter's can't Fly, and you can't melee what you can't reach.
Size: 803 posts
Last Updated: 9/9/12
Exactly what it says on the tin. "This is why giants throw stones. Because someone in Gygax's group pissed him off when they flew around killing his troll instead of taking it in the face." —Battlemad
Synthesist more powerful than a fighter
Size: 191 posts
Last Updated: 9/24/12
A bit more focused than our usual fare, but this is definitely part of the same genre.
Caster / Martial disparity in PF?
Size: 493 posts
Last Updated: 4/9/13
A curious thread asking how Pathfinder's casters compare with other editions'. You know how sometimes these arguments get derailed by those comparisons? Go to this thread to get the proper stitch.
At what level would you say the martial / caster 'flip' happens?
Size: 459 posts
Last Updated: 8/4/13
The title is fairly clear. Also touches on the Five Minute Adventuring Day—in fact, I think it gets a bit derailed on that point. I honestly didn't know whether to bold or italicize the link, since the OP does believe that casters pull well ahead at high levels but sees lower levels as the fighter's turf.
What's with the lack of respect for martials? [locked]
Size: 575 posts
Last Updated: 8/9/13
Another one bites the dust! You don't need a summary from me—you've seen it all before. Starts out talking about party roles and keeps going in the standard direction such threads go. When will we learn?
The almighty Wizard
Size: 445 posts
Last Updated: 10/2/13
An extremely old thread exploring whether a wizard really is "all that". Rather outdated—not strictly recommended unless you're curious.
Spell Caster Imbalance [locked]
Size: 515 posts
Last Updated: 11/26/13
Some examination of what makes casters "the best" that ultimately devolved into personal attacks and earned a lock. There are some interesting points raised, but we all know it's inevitably going to become another argument thread, so why bother? It's like playing To The Moon: You already know how it ends, so theoretically, what's the point in going back to the start? This is just another argument thread at the core, and there are plenty of those that remain unlocked.
I just don't understand how casters are better...
Size: 760 posts
Last Necromanced: 12/3/13
Yet another question thread. This one did introduce the interesting concept that the game is like rock-paper-scissors, and while the mage trumps the fighter, the rogue in turn trumps the mage. This was pre-Unchained, mind you.
Expanding the Virtues of Martials While Being Grounded to Core?
Size: 115 posts
Last Updated: 2/3/14
A mostly debate-free discourse on ways to modify what martials can do while staying in line with Core assumptions of balance. It seems pretty theoretical, but very useful if you're trying to work out where to start on modifying the system.
Casters vs Martials: The Errata Edition
Size: 285 posts
Last Updated: 2/27/14
Remember that joke earlier I made with the "Are Martials hit more by the FAQ than casters?"
This is the thread actually tackling that as a disparity issue. Not a bad notion to examine, and at least it's original.
Are balance issues more likely to be addressed if they are martial in nature?
We apologize for this error in the Index. Those responsible have been sacked.
Size: 14 posts
Last Updated: 3/7/14
Once again, an OP protesting that martials are getting too many nice things.
Sell me: full BAB martials are better martials than martial based casters
Size: 65 posts
Last Updated: 4/28/14
This thread posits that martials are outshone by casters even in their chosen field. It got a little bit ugly later on, so while browsing might be insightful, I would not recommend resurrecting it.
Time to roll for initiative: Martial vs. Caster [locked]
Size: 93 posts
Last Updated: 5/29/14
An attempt at an initiative breakdown. The mods went into detail about this lock, and it's kind of the one post on the thread I found worthwhile. Useful if you want to examine this "disparity" round-by-round, I suppose.
Do those people who consider casters overpowered see martial classes at their table? [locked]
Size: 631 posts
Lifespan: 5/23/14 — 5/30/14
Another casualty. A thread attempting to examine how the "disparity" affects gaming groups (no, despite the title, it's not a passive-aggressive "have you SEEN how much damage this fighter does?" thread). Kind of a shame—it wasn't a bad idea for discussion on its own, but derails were inevitable.
Mythic Fighter vs Wizard!
Size: 1,830 posts
Last Updated: 2/16/15
Naturally, a discussion on whether a Mythic Fighter trumps a normal wizard.
A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?
Size: 755 posts
Last Updated: 4/3/15] Just kidding, 4/1/15
Ah, an excellent vintage. A thread examining the fighter's dependence on gear to survive in the wild. This was the thread that ultimately swayed me, personally, on my beliefs on fighters' status.
In a Campaign W / Longer Adventuring Days, Is The Wizard Balanced?
Size: 246 posts
Last Updated: 6/4/15
A thread focusing on the Five Minute Adventuring Day and how it benefits casters more or less than martials. See? Even I'm not perfect.
Isn't it time to stop saying "Martials never get nice things"? [locked]
Size: 330 posts
Last Updated: 7/7/15
A thread listing fictional examples of martials not getting "nice things" to back up the belief that Pathfinder is simply imitating classic film and literature. Examines whether or not a game needs to be more "balanced" than a movie. Really quite worth examining if you want to look at Pathfinder's ruleset through a context of existing fantasy works.
Pathfinder removes the "may break physics" clause from Ex description
Size: 44 posts
Last Updated: 7/14/15
I'm surprised I never noticed this quaint thread discussing the role of "realism" for the martial. PRtMBPCfED is also fairly focused on examining whether or not Pathfinder favors the martial more than 3.5 did, but it of course quickly became derailed simply comparing the fighter to the wizard.
The Eight Primary Game Design Fallacies
Size: 246 posts
Last Updated: 7/17/15
A thread listing "fallacies", such as the "Anecdote Fallacy". Touches very heavily on several debates, including Caster/Martial, largely from a meta perspective of examining the discussions and arguments themselves.
There Is No Imbalance Between Martials and Casters. [locked]
Size: 235 posts
Last Updated: 7/18/15
A now-defunct thread designed to examine the "balance-focused" mindset of WoW players and pointing out a basic "Hey, fighter, wizard, we're all on the same side here, bros". You can't discuss anything here, but feel free to examine the thread to see what points have been made before.
Why Do Martials Need Better Things?
Size: 21 posts
Last Updated: 7/19/15
A fairly recent thread at the time of this thread's creation, WDMNBT focuses on the disparity between a caster's damage-dealing potential and a martial's, pointing out that most "blaster" spells fall behind a hasted barbarian quite quickly.
Spells stealng Martial abilities
Size: 141 posts
Last Updated: 7/19/15
A thread protesting the presence of spells that can mimic or surpass martial abilities, such as "the bladed dash spells".
The discrepancies between martial and magic
Size: 14 posts (just barely gets on the Index!)
Last Updated: 2/3/15
Sort of an advice thread. A caster player feels outshone by martials. There is little of value to the overall discussion, though the second-to-last post has some good advice for playing a caster at higher levels without making everyone else feel useless.
Ultimate Caster-Martial Disparity Poll
Size: 24 posts
Last Updated: 2/23/15
ul·ti·mate
ˈəltəmət/
adjective
adjective: ultimate
1.
being or happening at the end of a process; final.
"their ultimate aim was to force his resignation"
synonyms: eventual, final, concluding, terminal, end
Welp, glad we got that sorted out.
This Index is not yet complete. It will be added to, both from the future and, perhaps, from the past (though I think I'm through digging these threads up for now). If you want to help contribute, I recommend looking for Fighter threads in particular. That's a keyword I neglected.
The next time you're about to make a new thread about martials and casters, stop, take a breath, and look over here. Skim through these forty-something threads, and ask yourself, "Am I really going to be saying anything they haven't considered before? Will my thread produce anything more worthwhile than the countless threads preceding it?"
THEN GO FOR GOLD #YOLO
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Holy s!$# you guys have no idea how long this took to make. There may be some errors—particularly in dates—but the Index should be fairly accurate overall.
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No no, this new thread someone will make will totally have a new perspective that hasn't been brought up in the past 15 years. It's definitely not rehashing the same thing over and over.
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I want you to know that I just updated (though not with more story yet) the "What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?" to give you something to do Kobold Cleaver. No need to thank me, just helping out.
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Some quick tallies before I'm totally Paizo Debated-out.
75% of Creative threads were created by people who do believe in the disparity. The remaining 25% were created by people who stated no opinion at all (though one or two were created by people who I'm pretty sure have stated elsewhere their doubt in the disparity, but who remained neutral for the given thread). This is not much of a surprise—people who don't believe are unlikely to see such threads as necessary.
41% of Argumentative threads were created by people who do not believe in the disparity. 30% were created by people who do, and 30% were created by people who clarified no opinion. This is a difference of three threads, so it's not a huge margin. Still, it does imply that both sides are about equally obsessed with this topic.
24% of these threads were locked. Of these ten threads, one was created by someone who does believe in the disparity, six were created by people who do not believe in the disparity, and three by people who stated no clear opinions.
This could indicate that the forums are inherently less receptive to "nonbelievers", and/or that the "nonbelievers" who chose to make threads have not been using good communication strategies in designing their OPs. Alternatively, it could indicate that the "nonbelievers" simply make far more argument threads about the overall issue, while the "believers" mostly focus on facets of the issue that are less divisive.
Personally, I'm guessing it's a mix of all three.
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I want you to know that I just updated (though not with more story yet) the "What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?" to give you something to do Kobold Cleaver. No need to thank me, just helping out.
*Flips table*
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I want you to know that I just updated (though not with more story yet) the "What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?" to give you something to do Kobold Cleaver. No need to thank me, just helping out.*Flips table*
The prayer heard the incomprehensible squiggly one settles into this nest of cyclopean terrors content in the pool of wailing souls its tiny cultist has thoughtfully provided. Even if this only slows the inevitable madness brought on by the attempt at comprehension towards its inexorable and all-devouring will.
In an act both confusing and terrible the caster-martial disparity god calls forth a patch of darkness that further drives its cultist into deeper throes of both enlightenment and soul burning torment by showing them a picture of it's pit of birth.
Hey look, something useful.
A joke is never as funny the second time you hear it. Nor the forty-first.
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Excellent work putting this together, Kobold. Now we have one mega-resource with which to binge on divisive debate. It's like the Netflix of Arguments.
(In seriousness, the distinction between "Creative" and "Argumentative" threads is incredibly convenient when you actually want to participate in a discussion.)
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Nice work, Kobold!
41% of Argumentative threads were created by people who do not believe in the disparity. 30% were created by people who do, and 30% were created by people who clarified no opinion. ...
41+30+30 ... ;)
Is it just me, or does this just prove that point that there is a disparity and no one really cares? It's funny though, because the answers have already been made and any of the answer work but we keep making threads. Pretty funny actually.
I think it might be fair to say that there is disparity in some games but not others - see my 'ultimate' poll thread for approximate proportions - and some people care enough to argue about it until the thread gets locked.
41% of Argumentative threads were created by people who do not believe in the disparity. 30% were created by people who do, and 30% were created by people who clarified no opinion. ...41+30+30 ... ;)
Rounding errors, probably.
For example, 40.56+29.70+29.74=100 exactly
Rounding to 2 significant figures gives you 41+30+30=100.
Not even rounding errors, per se. I just didn't think the figures were important enough to be "precise".
I want you to know that I just updated (though not with more story yet) the "What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?" to give you something to do Kobold Cleaver. No need to thank me, just helping out.*Flips table*The prayer heard the incomprehensible squiggly one settles into this nest of cyclopean terrors content in the pool of wailing souls its tiny cultist has thoughtfully provided. Even if this only slows the inevitable madness brought on by the attempt at comprehension towards its inexorable and all-devouring will.
In an act both confusing and terrible the caster-martial disparity god calls forth a patch of darkness that further drives its cultist into deeper throes of both enlightenment and soul burning torment by showing them a picture of it's pit of birth.
I feel like this is a better god rising event than slaanesh. were millions of souls eaten instantly upon it's awakening?, who knows.
i feel like i should bump all of them to bring joy to my new patron: Caster-Martial Disparity God.
Not even rounding errors, per se. I just didn't think the figures were important enough to be "precise".
So long as you rounded at the end of your calculations, you didn't do any rounding errors. @DM Sothal did when he added your rounded numbers back up. He should have used your original unrounded numbers instead. Shame on him.
On another note, I wonder how many necros this thread is going to cause. The disparity poll thread has already been necroed, for starters.
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Well, no need for public shaming. We reserve that for people who disagree with us in caster/martial debates.
That was one major risk I considered. It's a risk I'm willing to take.
Wow all in one convenient package just in time for christmas
I'm still not convinced you've been properly put to rest yet.
41% of Argumentative threads were created by people who do not believe in the disparity. 30% were created by people who do, and 30% were created by people who clarified no opinion. ...41+30+30 ... ;)Rounding errors, probably.
For example, 40.56+29.70+29.74=100 exactly
Rounding to 2 significant figures gives you 41+30+30=100.
Can you please move this table to a format which is editable, so that you can keep adding them when people make new threads?
I'll probably do that the next time a thread is made, yeah.
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Rather than adding new threads to the table, shouldn't we direct all new disparity threads to this page, and/or to the relevant existing thread? "Dear X: thank you for sharing your interesting opinion. To reduce the risk of repetition, please read these 573 posts on the same subject to ensure you are in an informed position."
I'm sure that will lead to a future of nothing but efficient and reasoned debate.
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I was thinking a bit of both, actually.
The Index has been Doc-ified. New entries are "Fighter’s Concept…" and "Martials who get OK things".
A now-defunct thread designed to examine the "balance-focused" mindset of WoW players and pointing out a basic "Hey, fighter, wizard, we're all on the same side here, bros". You can't discuss anything here, but feel free to examine the thread to see what points have been made before.
I'm trying to be kind, and it might be best to be neutral for thread descriptions, but game balance has been a mainstream ideal in video games for a long time and more than a few table-top games as well. World of Warcraft has been a popular whipping boy in the Dungeons & Dragons community ever since 4th Edition's designers used video games as inspiration in addition to table-top RPGs.
I mean, I get how a lot of people didn't like more modern changes wrought by 4th, but I think we can call a spade a spade and point out that that particular thread is less of a discussion and more akin to a partisan political screed.
For one, views of game balance as a good thing is a more modern innovation in table-top D&D fandom. You don't see folks in the OSR (old school revolution) trying to ensure that each class is equally relevant at all levels or making sure that monster stat blocks scale in line with PC abilities.
4th Edition is built around things scaling, not at an equal rate but there is still an attempt to make saves, skills, etc, better to avoid massive discrepancies in numbers.
A "skill/magic system" for martials which grant special abilities beyond basic attacks, like what Tome of Battle or Path of War does, is also a modern convention for table-top D&D. Typically the only major resource fighters had was hit points.
The whole role system of Striker/Controller/etc is similar to the "tank/sneak/healer/mage" model although it doesn't lock in class roles by the kinds of spells or weapons they use. Like how Swordmage is an arcane class, but a "defender" rather than a "controller/blaster" which is what D&D wizardry is best known for. Or the avenger, which was a striker with a divine power source.
But that might be best served for another thread, considering that this topic mainly concerns Pathfinder martial/caster discussion.
Back on topic, regarding the thread itself, it's a very interesting archive which will definitely help help people look through the arguments and debates used rather than data-mining or by word of mouth.
Think you missed Options x Numbers.
Like I said, the list is incomplete. Adding it now!
Libertad, I was trying to stay as neutral as possible, but you're right—the comparison isn't a rational one.
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if you have time KC, it would be interesting to see how many posters actually get involved in either side.
For example - I often used to wade in on the defense of the fighter (until I stopped caring and just focused on playing and enjoying the game).
I know Rynjin and Anzyr were involved in nearly all the ones I posted in as true believers.
It was very interesting to note that the non believers had more argumentative threads.
Maybe if I get time and people don't mind getting named I'll go through and tally posters and sides of the debates. Not how many posts they made, but just a list of individual posters. If that's not OK maybe I'll just count how many belong to either side of the debate.
OR maybe I'll just go and paint more miniatures. Hmmmmmm....choices.
How about we make a subforum for these threads and banish relocate them all there.
This idea totally worked in Arkham City, right? Just walling off part of the city, and putting all the criminals there. It totally worked out and wasn't complete chaos, right?
As a side note, mods will not go to this new subforum because they values their lives and sanitybecause they believe in self governing and independence.
How about we make a subforum for these threads and
banishrelocate them all there.This idea totally worked in Arkham City, right? Just walling off part of the city, and putting all the criminals there. It totally worked out and wasn't complete chaos, right?
As a side note, mods will not go to this new subforum
because they values their lives and sanitybecause they believe in self governing and independence.
okay but they need to unlock all the locked threads that go there.
Design Manager
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Maybe if I get time and people don't mind getting named I'll go through and tally posters and sides of the debates. Not how many posts they made, but just a list of individual posters. If that's not OK maybe I'll just count how many belong to either side of the debate.
You could even see who has switched sides! I've always liked the Fighter, but my opinion on martial/caster disparity has actually shifted substantially over the last couple years as I've played with a larger pool of people and a lot of new players, and come to recognize that things I thought were "balanced", were actually just kept in line with an elaborate series of house rules and gentlefolk's agreements that I didn't even realize we were using until I was exposed to the game as seen by a bunch of first time players.
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okay but they need to unlock all the locked threads that go there.How about we make a subforum for these threads and
banishrelocate them all there.This idea totally worked in Arkham City, right? Just walling off part of the city, and putting all the criminals there. It totally worked out and wasn't complete chaos, right?
As a side note, mods will not go to this new subforum
because they values their lives and sanitybecause they believe in self governing and independence.
Can we unlock the cages filled with rabid wolves a the same time? I bet those wolves have a lot of thought provoking ideas on the topic.
You could even see who has switched sides! I've always liked the Fighter, but my opinion on martial/caster disparity has actually shifted substantially over the last couple years as I've played with a larger pool of people and a lot of new players, and come to recognize that things I thought were "balanced", were actually just kept in line with an elaborate series of house rules and gentlefolk's agreements that I didn't even realize we were using until I was exposed to the game as seen by a bunch of first time players.
Maybe if I get time and people don't mind getting named I'll go through and tally posters and sides of the debates. Not how many posts they made, but just a list of individual posters. If that's not OK maybe I'll just count how many belong to either side of the debate.
and then we could take everyone who doesn't agree that martials have issues and push them somewhere else.
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Man, even in this thread about other threads people are attacking folks whom don't believe exactly what you do. Pushing people out, going to retro clones or other editions. Such are the reasons I stopped arguing and just play.
If you push away the opinions of others, you can't have constructive discussion. Constructive discussion is great. Argument not so much, especially in a public forum through the safety screen of the internet.
Think you missed Options x Numbers.
I think that's a particularly good one. With an extremely handsome OP. ;)
It isn't exactly about caster/martial disparity per se, though... But when you talk about options x number it's all but impossible for the disaprity subject not to come up.
Man, even in this thread about other threads people are attacking folks whom don't believe exactly what you do. Pushing people out, going to retro clones or other editions. Such are the reasons I stopped arguing and just play.
If you push away the opinions of others, you can't have constructive discussion. Constructive discussion is great. Argument not so much, especially in a public forum through the safety screen of the internet.
NOT THEY ARE NOT. PEOPLE ARE PERFECTLY CALM AND WORKING TOGETHER IN THIS THREAD. THIS IS A MODEL OF WORLD PEACE
FOR SAYING OTHERWISE WITH OBVIOUSLY FALSE OPINIONS, YOU CAN SPEND A FORTNIGHT WITH THE WOLVES, AFTERWHICH YOU ARE RELOCATED TO THE "TROPICAL" ENVIRONMENT OF OUT TRASH BURNING PILES
Man, even in this thread about other threads people are attacking folks whom don't believe exactly what you do. Pushing people out, going to retro clones or other editions. Such are the reasons I stopped arguing and just play.
If you push away the opinions of others, you can't have constructive discussion. Constructive discussion is great. Argument not so much, especially in a public forum through the safety screen of the internet.
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Ahhh....cough....shuffles feet.
Well in that case, carry on then.
And I agree, telling anyone to go play another edition is just ridiculous. Some of those editions have good ideas for home brewing fixes for issues some people see though. They're worth referencing, but not being told to just bugger off and play it instead.
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Ahhh....cough....shuffles feet.
Well in that case, carry on then.And I agree, telling anyone to go play another edition is just ridiculous. Some of those editions have good ideas for home brewing fixes for issues some people see though. They're worth referencing, but not being told to just bugger off and play it instead.
don't worry, i respect everyone(mostly) even ones with opinions i hate.
'W'
listen too to the dull and the ignorant, for they too have their stories. not... not that i'm saying anyone is dull or ignorant... this sounded better in my head.