My Self |
Sooo... I was wondering how you would stat out/build each/any/all of the Lord of the Rings characters. Anybody got any links/suggestions/builds?
Characters:
Maiar
Sauron (Titular character)
-The One Ring (my precious)
Durin's Bane (Giant balrog monster who killed Gandalf)
Gandalf the Grey (Pre-Resurrection)
-Narya (The red ring, one of the Three)
-Glamdring (magical orc-killer elf sword)
-Shadowfax (magical uberhorse)
Gandalf the White (Post-Resurrection)
Saruman the White (Christopher Lee)
Radagast the Brown (One of those other wizards we don't care as much about)
Elves
Galadriel (Elf lady who gives out magical gear)
-Nenya (The white ring, one of the Three)
Legolas (Legolas)
Thranduil (Elf-King in the forest in the Hobbit)
Half-Elves
Elrond (Hugo Weaving, half-elf elf)
-Vilya (The blue ring, one of the Three)
Arwen (Half-elf who marries Aragorn)
Humans
Aragorn (King of Gondor, Ranger, Strider)
-Narsil/Anduril (Artefact sword of ancestral awesome)
Denethor (Steward of Gondor, father of Boromir and Faramir)
Boromir (Sean Bean, Eddard Stark, tries to murder Frodo)
Faramir (Boromir's brother, doesn't try to murder Frodo)
Theoden (King of Rohan, Horselord)
-Snowmane (His horsey)
Eomer (Later King of Rohan)
Eowyn (Princess of Rohan, "I am no man")
Bard (The bowman, King of Dale, in the Hobbit)
Beorn (The shapeshifter bear guy in the Hobbit)
Witch-king of Angmar (Captain of the Nazgul)
-Ring (One of the Nine)
-funky flying dinosaur steed (exactly what you think it is)
-Morgul-blade (hard to describe)
Mouth of Sauron (That guy at the gates)
Dwarves
Gimli (Son of Gloin, "Nobody tosses a dwarf")
Thorin (Son of Thrain, Son of Thror, King under the Mountain)
-Orcrist (Like Sting, but better)
-Arkenstone (big gem)
Fili/Kili/Oin/Gloin/Balin/Dwalin/Ori/Dori/Nori/Bifur/Bofur (Generic dwarf x11)
Bombur (The fat one)
Halflings (sneaky hobbitses)
Frodo (bagginses)
-Phial of Galadriel (Glowy amulet thing)
Bilbo (bagginses)
-Sting (Not the Police; orc-detector sword)
-Mithril shirt (AKA, bulletproof vest)
Sam (The gardener)
Pippin (Stayed with the Gondor crowd)
Merry (Stayed with the Rohan crowd)
Other
Treebeard (Ent)
Gollum (Smeagol)
Tom Bombadil (Not in the movie, because reasons)
Ghost King (Leader of the undead army)
So yeah, any suggestions or builds for any/all of these?
Rub-Eta |
Hello, movie watcher (I can tell that you havn't read the books or you would pick other characters to build).
Both the Elfs and Maiar from Lord of the Rings needs Mythic tier to work or can't be done with normal rules. Neither can Tom Bombadil, Ghost King, Treebeard (special race required). Maybe Witch King of Angmar at level 20+, though would probably need something mythic as well.
Aragorn would probably be some kind of Aasimar ranger. Beorn is probably a skinwalker. Bilbo is a bard, the rest of the halflings are probably just commoners with some leves in fighter/rogue maybe. Gollum would be a brawler, I guess? All the dwarfs are some kind of martial class, Thorin does probably have a higher point-buy.
thejeff |
Various bits of this have been discussed to no end here before. With various opinions ranging from "You need Mythic" as Rub-Eta says to "Gandalf's a 5th level caster".
I'd say you really can't do it well. Pathfinder doesn't work well with Tolkien's kind of fantasy. There have been games focused on it - MERP long ago and The One Ring now.
My Self |
Hello, movie watcher (I can tell that you havn't read the books or you would pick other characters to build).
Bombadil isn't in the recent movies. But in any case, these characters see the brunt of the action. I mean, Beorn has a bazillion kids, but it's not interesting to stat out because it's mostly speculative about their combat prowess. Tolkien's other books are significantly more densely worded and have fewer interpretations (especially not live-action movies) that it would be a bit of a nightmare to stat out each character. If you search around for info on the wizards, you find that there was a blue and a purple wizard, but besides their names, that's it- you can't build a character sheet on that.
I was thinking that any/all the rings would grant a scaling bonus to Charisma checks- something like 1/3 HD or something, as well as +HD to Leadership score. The One Ring would probably be intelligent and might have a scaling Will DC based on your HD- Maybe its Ego + 2x your HD + 10 or something, and each failed save does WIS drain.
I guess most Maiar would be 15-20 HD Outsiders with some full spellcasting baked in, but probably a lot of GM intervention/houseruling to keep them from dominating everybody.
Kobold Catgirl |
Gollum is a dead ringer for Strangler Brawler, I know that much. I think Sam and Frodo should start out as Experts at the least—Frodo in particular. They clearly have skills beyond a Commoner's range (Sam with elf lore, for instance). I'd say Pippin gets a level or two in bard later on, since most of his time (right up until a fight with a troll) is spent socially.
Sam definitely gets some Fighter or Slayer levels by the end of it. Frodo in the books should have some PC levels, too—something that represents his powerful will and charisma. We're talking about a hobbit who can converse with elves and wizards on a level approaching equals, who's seen as positively elf-like by the other hobbits (even down to his hair color!).
I'd say all elves should just be elves, but give them Mythic tiers at the start. Aragorn could be a human or half-elf, also with a few Mythic tiers. Sauron goes all the way to ten, and Elendil, Isildur and their ilk would be around six to eight. As is stated in the books, the sorts of heroes needed to beat a "final form Sauron" simply don't exist anymore.
My Self |
As is stated in the books, the sorts of heroes needed to beat a "final form Sauron" simply don't exist anymore.
Well, Gandalf or Saruman + my precious, but that wouldn't happen.
I'm thinking Theoden had levels in Cavalier- his children probably did, too. I got the feeling that Aragorn was taking some sort of gestalt Paladin/Ranger, though that's just me. Sam seemed to do more surviving than slaying, and it's kinda hard to place him. There's a chance he just took more levels in his current classes.
LOTR elves are not regular elves. They probably have some sort of stat adjustment equal to 1 or 2 CRs. Aragorn probably had some sort of template or advanced human thing. (Dire human? *joke*)
Wizard is a race, not a class. Weird, huh?
thejeff |
If I had too, I'd stat Aragorn as a half-elf, Ranger, trading something out for minimal healing abilities. The Wizards are outsiders - not classed.
Elves are elves with a few racial tweaks, mostly not relevant to adventuring. (Except in the movies, particularly the Hobbit movies where Legolas is obviously Mythic. I think the GM has a crush on Legolas's player.)
Merry & Pippin definitely picked up some leadership & combat skills. Doesn't really show up next to all the high level Men & Elves they hang out with, but it's clear in the Scouring of the Shire.
None of the main characters are Mythic. If Gandalf is, it's part of the package he's forbidden to use. Some of the impressive Elves might be - Galadriel, Glorfindel - those who dwelt in Aman in the Light of the Trees, would probably be my dividing line, if I was going to go that route.
It's amusing to see the Mythic claims though, cause it's usually the other way round, with people claiming no one's above 5th level.
My Self |
Aragorn might have a mythic rank or at least a lot more levels under his belt or something. His healing skill could either be a racial trait, a feat, or just a lot of skill ranks and rare plot alchemical herbs. Recall that this guy is 80 years old by the time he meets the Hobbits, and has spent much of those years in other adventures fighting Sauron's forces.
thejeff |
Aragorn might have a mythic rank or at least a lot more levels under his belt or something. His healing skill could either be a racial trait, a feat, or just a lot of skill ranks and rare plot alchemical herbs. Recall that this guy is 80 years old by the time he meets the Hobbits, and has spent much of those years in other adventures fighting Sauron's forces.
"The hands of a king are the hands of a healer." It's definitely tied to the bloodline.
You can set it up any way you want. But if he's Mythic and high level, the orcs and other things they meet have to all be pretty scary too.
This is where I came in with "I don't think it fits PF well". It doesn't scale the same way.
My Self |
Aragorn does pretty well in combat. The hobbits don't run into serious trouble until he's not around, really. He fends off several Ringwraiths, which are fairly powerful, high-level enemies. The times when he runs into the most trouble is when he's outnumbered 50:1, which is exactly when he should be in trouble. Consider the battle maths. He can survive multiple Ringwraiths, especially when he's better-armed than them, they're incorporeal, and he has an artifact weapon that is meant to hurt evil creatures. But in Helm's Deep, he gets into a bit of trouble, because he's facing hundreds of Orcs. And Boromir dies when both Aragorn and Gandalf are absent- in fact, he's alone outnumbered pretty heavily, too. Most of the Lord of the Rings combats are a higher-level party against low-level Orcs- but there are a lot of orcs.
In any case, Aragorn is rarely in trouble in battles because he's that much better than his enemies. Most battles in Lord of the Rings aren't CR-appropriate, they're severely tilted in one direction or another. Gandalf v. Balrog is probably one of the few battles that is CR-appropriate, maybe the battle of Gondor (they literally have a boatload of ghost soldiers), which was against enemies with elephants and siege engines, and maybe, just maybe, Gollum v. Frodo at the end (rolled a natural 20 to break grapple, threw Gollum into lava). Otherwise, it's mostly unbalanced.
Dragonchess Player |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Read here for an analysis of what is described in the books. Granted, it's for 3.x, but still mostly relevant.
As far as the books go, most of the characters that actually appear are low level (no more than about 5th) and most of the opponents are (individually) also low CR. Some of the elves, Gandalf, and Saruman are probably 6th-9th level at most; Gandalf and Saruman are complicated in that they probably have racial hit dice/etc. as well as class levels. The Nazgul, the Balrog, and Shelob are likely around CR 7 to 10 at most. Tom Bombadil is likely the most powerful character to appear in person (around CR 15 or higher), but only concerned with the Old Forest and the immediate area.
The movies are a completely different paradigm.
Kobold Catgirl |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty sure the majority of the "heroic" PCs (Legolas, Aragorn, Gimli, and even Boromir, mainly) are actually quite high-level. They dispatch massive quantities of orcs. Compare with an actually low-level campaign, that of Song of Ice and Fire, where even a particularly skileld warrior struggles against 5-7 decently-trained soldiers.
The real trouble is that the trolls and Nazgul are very potent in Middle Earth. And there's a lot of orcs.
Aragorn treats Frodo’s wound, unsuccessfully. (The highest Heal DC is 15. As with Survival, Aragorn could have mastered this skill at 1st level.
This is a kind of ridiculous assertion, of course, and I shouldn't even need to say why. It sheds a dim light on the rest of the article.
In Moria (fighting orcs): “Legolas shot two through the throat. Gimli hewed the legs from under another that had sprung up on Balin’s tomb. Boromir and Aragorn slew many. When thirteen had fallen the rest fled shrieking, leaving the defenders unharmed, except for Sam who had a scratch along the scalp. A quick duck had saved him; and he had felled his orc: a sturdy thrust with his Barrow-blade. A fire was smouldering in his brown eyes that would have made Ted Sandyman step backwards, if he had seen it. (Aragorn slays no more than six or seven CR 1/2 orcs in this encounter. A trivial accomplishment for a 5th level character.)
Yeah, uh, they might have been a bit occupied running away. They weren't trying to massacre the entire orc army. In fact, that was almost never the goal—most people have tactical goals other than "Kill at least five of these delicious xp packets so I can level up and get that pie!" They want to route their enemies, avoid them, slow them down, keep them from killing the soldiers they're fighting alongside, that sort of thing. This tends to hinder kill counts.
This said, Helm's Deep is a somewhat better indicator—even getting swarmed by orcs, Gimli was able to kill forty-three with nary a scratch on him. Considering the orcs were probably trying to avoid or hamper his efforts once they realized his skill, and he probably had to chase down a few (good thing dwarves are natural sprinters!), that's pretty impressive. Even assuming that forty-three was the total number of orcs fought (rather than, say, sixty total, forty-three he managed to finish off), that's around a CR 9 encounter (which means a bit more when you remember that none of these martials except Aragorn get proper magic items, so Gimli's AC is stuck at around 20, tops—easily hit by the average warrior).
Legolas would have probably topped Gimli long ago, considering the ranged/melee disparities, but Gimli explains that here pretty well.
Bottom line is, despite getting almost no magic to boost them (which does make them closely resemble low-level PCs), these guys are capable of wiping out small armies. Even Boromir, who ended up dead, slaughtered s~@@loads of Uruk-Hai—the "uberorcs". In the book, he was targeted by as many as a hundred archers, and still managed to slaughter around twenty of the jerks piling on him in melee while defending two stupid hobbits. That's honestly pretty impressive. The movie downplays it a bit, but you also get the sense the lone orc shooting at him was around the same level as Aragorn and Improved Vital Striking, so of course Boromir would go down. Later, the trio—Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn—are planning to chase down the force that took down Boromir, and actually give the impression that the real danger isn't the orcs themselves—it's just not being able to catch up in time.
Idle Champion |
Certain qualities of various characters suggest playable qualities of PCs... but they are really odd builds, and they aren't especially straightforward.
For example:
Aragorn is described as a Ranger, and there is a Ranger PC, so Aragorn's a Ranger...but if he is he's clearly taken an archetype that trades away animal companion and spell-casting, his 'healing' is a brightly-coloured weed away from a Paladin's Lay on Hands - as is all mystic healing in LOTR. He doesn't demonstrate Wild Empathy, only riding thoroughly-trained horses. He's also clearly got very high charisma, as well as a lot of ranks in skills a typical Ranger wouldn't take - Knowledge skills and UMD (Mastering the Palantir), but his Knowledge checks often involve songs, poems, and riddles like Bardic Knowledge rather than studied lore. His situationally one-handed or two-handed bastard sword fighting style isn't a focused Ranger style. He also trades up from his Strider-period light armour, as eventually the movies and books have him wearing heavy armour when he rides on the Black Gate.
Aragorn isn't played like a Ranger. He has features of Paladins, Rangers, and Bards, and most resembles a sort of skillmonkey Paladin.
Then there's the settingwide issue - it's a kind of low magic setting where you can get caster levels but you don't get spells, instead gaining a whole host of secondary powers.
thejeff |
Read here for an analysis of what is described in the books. Granted, it's for 3.x, but still mostly relevant.
As far as the books go, most of the characters that actually appear are low level (no more than about 5th) and most of the opponents are (individually) also low CR. Some of the elves, Gandalf, and Saruman are probably 6th-9th level at most; Gandalf and Saruman are complicated in that they probably have racial hit dice/etc. as well as class levels. The Nazgul, the Balrog, and Shelob are likely around CR 7 to 10 at most. Tom Bombadil is likely the most powerful character to appear in person (around CR 15 or higher), but only concerned with the Old Forest and the immediate area.
The movies are a completely different paradigm.
This is where the assumptions break down: The Balrog, who singlehandedly drove the greatest kingdom of dwarves from their homeland is CR 7-10 at most.
Even assuming all the orcs are all normal CR 1/2 orcs is just an assumption. Maybe a bunch of them have class levels?More generally, magic and power in general is subtler than in PF.
They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.
What level is a caster who can do tear down an entire fortress, but can't even fly or teleport or throw fireballs?
Manwolf |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When you read more of the books you'll find that Maiar like the wizards Gandolf, Saruman, and Radagast are probably quite high in level. Valar like Sauron are more lesser deities than men. The issue is that magic is very different in Middle Earth than it is in D&D and Pathfinder. Some things like divination, healing, and mind magic like bidirectional telepathy are more likely than teleportation and time stop.
The Valar and Maiar spend more time guiding (manipulating?) the races like humans, hobbies and orcs, that they don't need to do a cheap ton of magic every day.
In game terms for example, in the old MERP and Rolemaster game terms, here's one I could find quickly, the Witch King was 60th level with 30th level spells. Per the MERP conversions a 20th level AD&D character would be the equivalent of 30th level in MERP.
Idle Champion |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's a fundamentally different magic system at work: clearly no free spells on level advancement, CL is much more a part of magic item attunement or creation, or something that unlocks supernatural uses for mundane skills, and most spells are built around special focus items and take longer than a standard action.
Consider Galadriel - the soil from her garden can restore the entire despoiled Shire, her cloaks are weather-proof, grant competence bonuses to stealth, are suitable attire for Diplomacy with nobility, protect from hostile divination, and are not damaged by rough use. When she puts forth her powers, she can undo permanency effects, depict accurate images of the future, store the radiance of Earendil's Silmaril (the most powerful object in existence) in a vial of water where it can be used to banish evil-aligned creatures or dispel evil magic. She's not a PF-style caster, but she's clearly high-level by the standards of that world, and verges on Mythic.
The magic items also behave differently - in PF, a ring of splendid security has the same effect for a character capable of making it as for a first-level commoner. In LOTR, Gandalf is clearly aware that he could access the full power of the One Ring, but Frodo only unlocks the Greater Invisibility effect and cannot control even that.
Dasrak |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is where the assumptions break down: The Balrog, who singlehandedly drove the greatest kingdom of dwarves from their homeland is CR 7-10 at most.
Let's model our Balrog with the CR 9 Vrock. We'll refluff his "spores" and "dance of ruin" abilities to be fire-based and remove those inappropriate SLA's and give him some magic weapons in return. We'll also drop the DR 10/good to DR/10 magic, since magic weapons are rare enough in Middle Earth to begin with.
So what does this mean? Most NPC's are going to have trouble breaking through that DR, and be little more than fodder hoping for a critical hit. Perhaps a handful of dwarven heroes have access to magic weapons, but they're still 4th-5th level at best and will have trouble effectively engaging this monster even with the ability to damage it effectively. Meanwhile, that Vrock is an engine of destruction; Dance of Ruin could annihilate entire legions of soldiers in a matter of minutes, and his Spores ability is practically a death sentence to anything that actually does get into melee range. What few foes actually prove resilient enough to survive this will be torn asunder by his high strength and BAB +9 that lets him reliably hit for massive damage.
In a setting like that, a CR 9 Vrock can easily fill the role of Durin's Bane and destroy an entire kingdom.
Even assuming all the orcs are all normal CR 1/2 orcs is just an assumption.
It's a perfectly reasonable presumption. These are bog-standard mooks that never demonstrate any competence beyond weapon proficiency. From my view, it's up to you to present evidence that the baseline should be higher than "warrior 1".
Yes, the orcs could have more levels, increasing the baseline accordingly and acting as challenges for a higher level fellowship. Mechanically the d20 system can scale nicely and allows for a broad scale of powers. The point of "Calibrating your Expectations" isn't to say that higher level PC's or mooks is wrong, but rather that you should calibrate your expectations accordingly. Being a 10th level character isn't just about being able to beat the snot out of CR 5 mooks, but also entails supernatural skill and ability associated with that level. The Middle Earth setting gives us no reason to accept such supernatural ability as our baseline, and the evidence strongly suggests a lower calibration.
BadBird |
Much of modern fantasy is adapted from Tolkien and much of Tolkien is adapted from Norse and other northern mythology (don't tell the Evangelicals who like LoTR), but there's a whole, whole lot of change in style and theme somewhere between the 70's and here.
Now, we're talking about a PnP RPG interpretation of a fantasy setting that, unlike a considerable amount of dubious modern fantasy, wasn't conceived of in DnD terms. Arguing about the 'correct' conversion is equal parts sad and funny (but not really ha-ha funny), not least because it's riddled with latent motivations of love or hatred for extra-old-school literary fantasy.
So argue about the conversion that plays the best, and/or is the most entertaining, and/or fits the themes. Just throwing out the major arcane casting classes is actually a great way to suddenly make the system more LoTR in feel, since at least you've got Bestow Curse and Divine Wrath and Hold Person instead of Fireballs and Tentacles.
My Self |
He doesn't demonstrate Wild Empathy, only riding thoroughly-trained horses. He's also clearly got very high charisma, as well as a lot of ranks in skills a typical Ranger wouldn't take - Knowledge skills and UMD (Mastering the Palantir), but his Knowledge checks often involve songs, poems, and riddles like Bardic Knowledge rather than studied lore.
I'm pretty sure mastering the Palantir is an opposed charisma check or some sort of will save. Even Pippin can use the Palantir, but the way it's used isn't so much a fiddly skillmastery of the stone- it's just Pippin's mediocre will or Aragorn's fairly powerful presence against Sauron's. If all it took was a UMD check, Sauron would be miles ahead of Aragorn and it would be practically impossible to beat him. After all, 99% of Sauron's thing was about using magical items- the One Ring, the Seven, and the Nine. Additionally, he was the guy who rigged up the whole Sauron-vision thing where you can only see what he wants you to see. And Aragorn had very little experience with the Palantir before that day- it had been cooped up on Saruman's tower.
But yeah, Aragorn is a skillmonkey Paladin. I'm especially looking at the 9th level Remove Curse and Remove Poison mercies- it probably just has some sort of material component?
My Self |
Much of modern fantasy is adapted from Tolkien and much of Tolkien is adapted from Norse and other northern mythology (don't tell the Evangelicals who like LoTR), but there's a whole, whole lot of change in style and theme somewhere between the 70's and here.
Now, we're talking about a PnP RPG interpretation of a fantasy setting that, unlike a considerable amount of dubious modern fantasy, wasn't conceived of in DnD terms. Arguing about the 'correct' conversion is equal parts sad and funny (but not really ha-ha funny), not least because it's riddled with latent motivations of love or hatred for extra-old-school literary fantasy.
So argue about the conversion that plays the best, and/or is the most entertaining, and/or fits the themes. Just throwing out the major arcane casting classes is actually a great way to suddenly make the system more LoTR in feel, since at least you've got Bestow Curse and Divine Wrath and Hold Person instead of Fireballs and Tentacles.
There are probably some arcane add-ons, such as perhaps Arcane Lock and Snapdragon Fireworks. Maybe a possibility of Good Hope. Charm and Dominate Person are still within the realm of possibility. But yeah, that idea is pretty good.
Actually, it would be fun to have a subtle caster game, where most conjurations and evocations are banned, the more damaging and status-effecty illusions are banned, and the more obvious giant monster and flight transmutations are cut from the list or pushed back a few levels. The scarier necromancies might do well with a push back or cut, as well as the more physical abjurations. Enchantments would probably be stretched out or pushed back a few levels. That leaves you with a higher amount of enchantments (which can be pretty quiet), still a fair number of buffing transmutations (ones that don't turn you into dragons), some illusions, plenty of abjurations, few direct debuffs, and a number of utility spells (but not as many). Which would really change wizards/sorcerers from flashy save or die/get debuffed hard, blast (not like it's very useful), or summon strategies into more supporting roles. Enchantments used to murderize will still mostly be there and still be a problem, but not so much as the everything-ness. Which, in the long run, means you're still incredibly powerful, but now you need a team.
BadBird |
I could easily see Gandalf as a high-level, high-wisdom Evangelist Cleric with the Heroism subdomain and a level of Monk. Full of powerful spells, Touch of Glory to demolish charisma checks, deadly with sword or staff (Divine Favor/Power + Crusader's Flurry + Guided Hand), absurdly high armor and CMD in a robe, towering saves, and can bestow enormous competence and morale bonuses on himself and those around him with his words, or his magic, or just a plain old Aura of Heroism.
Kobold Catgirl |
It's a perfectly reasonable presumption. These are bog-standard mooks that never demonstrate any competence beyond weapon proficiency. From my view, it's up to you to present evidence that the baseline should be higher than "warrior 1".
Certain orcs do, actually.
In the novel, Boromir is brought down by a great many arrows, presumably of standard dimensions, shot by goblins, while the hulking Lurtz fires three enormous shafts into him, and no goblins are seen to deliver any wounds.
(Remember that goblins are human-sized in Middle Earth, and outside of the movies, literally just slang for orcs)
Moreover, the Uruk-Hai are indicated to be much more deadly than the average orc. Bigger, meaner, able to move during the day. At the least, they're orcs with class levels. Sidenote: Isn't it funny how easily "orc" gets typoed as "roc"? Sure would make this discussion read differently.
I'm pretty sure mastering the Palantir is an opposed charisma check or some sort of will save. Even Pippin can use the Palantir, but the way it's used isn't so much a fiddly skillmastery of the stone- it's just Pippin's mediocre will or Aragorn's fairly powerful presence against Sauron's. If all it took was a UMD check, Sauron would be miles ahead of Aragorn and it would be practically impossible to beat him. After all, 99% of Sauron's thing was about using magical items- the One Ring, the Seven, and the Nine. Additionally, he was the guy who rigged up the whole Sauron-vision thing where you can only see what he wants you to see. And Aragorn had very little experience with the Palantir before that day- it had been cooped up on Saruman's tower.
The indication I always got was that the Palantir was meant for Aragorn as the "rightful user". Circumstance bonuses galore! Kinda like having a talisman of the sphere and trying to control a sphere of annihilation.
thejeff |
Quote:This is where the assumptions break down: The Balrog, who singlehandedly drove the greatest kingdom of dwarves from their homeland is CR 7-10 at most.Let's model our Balrog with the CR 9 Vrock. We'll refluff his "spores" and "dance of ruin" abilities to be fire-based and remove those inappropriate SLA's and give him some magic weapons in return. We'll also drop the DR 10/good to DR/10 magic, since magic weapons are rare enough in Middle Earth to begin with.
So what does this mean? Most NPC's are going to have trouble breaking through that DR, and be little more than fodder hoping for a critical hit. Perhaps a handful of dwarven heroes have access to magic weapons, but they're still 4th-5th level at best and will have trouble effectively engaging this monster even with the ability to damage it effectively. Meanwhile, that Vrock is an engine of destruction; Dance of Ruin could annihilate entire legions of soldiers in a matter of minutes, and his Spores ability is practically a death sentence to anything that actually does get into melee range. What few foes actually prove resilient enough to survive this will be torn asunder by his high strength and BAB +9 that lets him reliably hit for massive damage.
In a setting like that, a CR 9 Vrock can easily fill the role of Durin's Bane and destroy an entire kingdom.
Quote:Even assuming all the orcs are all normal CR 1/2 orcs is just an assumption.It's a perfectly reasonable presumption. These are bog-standard mooks that never demonstrate any competence beyond weapon proficiency. From my view, it's up to you to present evidence that the baseline should be higher than "warrior 1".
Yes, the orcs could have more levels, increasing the baseline accordingly and acting as challenges for a higher level fellowship. Mechanically the d20 system can scale nicely and allows for a broad scale of powers. The point of "Calibrating your Expectations" isn't to say that higher level PC's or mooks is wrong, but rather that you...
The fallacy of Calibrating your Expectations is that it seems based only on explicit D&D style magic. Since there's no one playing high or even mid level caster tricks, everyone must be low level and everything else can be calibrated to that.
We know the dwarves didn't have magic weapons because they could be beaten by the Balrog, who we know can be beaten by Gandalf, who we know is a low-level caster. Of course we also know that Khazad-dum was the greatest and richest dwarf-kingdom and had much trade with the very crafter/caster elves who made the Rings. We know that dwarves did make magic weapons - both Narsil and Angrist were dwarven work. But hey, they all still have to be low-level PF characters because no fireballs.And that's the point of it: LotRs magic isn't PF magic. It's not flashy. It's not generally personal combat oriented. That doesn't mean it isn't powerful. It's just not D&D.
Atarlost |
I think Sam and Frodo should start out as Experts at the least—Frodo in particular. They clearly have skills beyond a Commoner's range (Sam with elf lore, for instance). I'd say Pippin gets a level or two in bard later on, since most of his time (right up until a fight with a troll) is spent socially.
All the adventuring hobbits except Samwise start out as aristocrats. Bilbo is a country squire. Frodo's his heir. Merry and Pippin are the honest to primogeniture heirs of the Master of Buckland and the Thane respectively.
We know Gandalf, whatever he is, casts as an 11th level or higher druid. Fire Seeds is ripped straight from the pages of The Hobbit. In PF the best fit is a high level hunter who starts the game with his pet long dead. Shadowfax is probably his long delayed replacement pet.
We know Beorn is a druid.
We know that at least some of the Mordor orcs have class levels because they aren't of uniform skill and experience: the officers are stronger and more experienced. There are at least three gradations. We know the Isengard orcs aren't common orcs. The best fit is bugbears or advanced hobgoblins. Bugbear is a better fit since the CR matches a level 3 orc and they seem to be equal to the Mordor orc officer in the run through Rohan.
We know that some variant HP is used because Bard of Laketown drops a great red wyrm (by age and by size category) with one arrow and that he is still very high level because even with a very conservative wounds/vigor system and him bypassing vigor entirely it takes a lot of vital strike and deadly aim stacking to get even a +5 bane arrow to kill an unwounded colossal dragon in one hit. He may need mythic vital strike.
We know the Mouth is some sort of caster, though we have no details whatsoever.
We know that every single spell that references another plane other than the shadow plane does not exist. That includes all teleportation spells, which require access to the ethereal plane. This almost entirely guts the conjuration school. For the most part spells that obviously aren't ever used and would be if they existed match up well to spells that rely on the D&D planar cosmology to function. There are some transmutations that are conspicuous by their absence, but the place could be rife with abjurations and enchantments and we'd never know and it is rife with necromancy.
Idle Champion |
We know that at least some of the Mordor orcs have class levels because they aren't of uniform skill and experience: the officers are stronger and more experienced. There are at least three gradations. We know the Isengard orcs aren't common orcs. The best fit is bugbears or advanced hobgoblins. Bugbear is a better fit since the CR matches a level 3 orc and they seem to be equal to the Mordor orc officer in the run through Rohan.
The film has Boromir fight just Uruk-Hai - in the novel when they find his body they find the three gradations of orc - none of them resemble the orc or half-orc of Golarion.
Moria goblins - small, weak, light sensitive. Statwise, close to kobolds, but their light-sensitivity is very severe - closer to Sunlight Powerlessness.
Black-orcs of Mordor - lighter and weaker than humans, but medium-sized, strong enough to be individually dangerous, though light sensitive.
Uruk-hai - not the hulking brutes of the film, shorter than human, though at least as heavy. Statwise, most like a hobgoblin (Tolkien called them hobgoblins in early printing, though changed that to Uruk-Hai when he realised that the hobgoblin of folklore is smaller and kindlier than a goblin; the OD&D hobgoblin is based off the Uruk-Hai) Uruk-hai aren't meant to be threatening because they're stronger than humans - they're threatening because they're physically equal, as all other orcs are abject wretches.
Named orcs, like Shagrat or Ugluk, would have class levels and elite arrays, evidenced by their ability to dominate other orcs in battle, and Ugluk's claim of killing Boromir (Lurtz is film-only, even if he is cool), but nothing so special as advanced template or even the full-blooded orc's strength.
thejeff |
Kobold Cleaver wrote:I think Sam and Frodo should start out as Experts at the least—Frodo in particular. They clearly have skills beyond a Commoner's range (Sam with elf lore, for instance). I'd say Pippin gets a level or two in bard later on, since most of his time (right up until a fight with a troll) is spent socially.All the adventuring hobbits except Samwise start out as aristocrats. Bilbo is a country squire. Frodo's his heir. Merry and Pippin are the honest to primogeniture heirs of the Master of Buckland and the Thane respectively.
We know Gandalf, whatever he is, casts as an 11th level or higher druid. Fire Seeds is ripped straight from the pages of The Hobbit. In PF the best fit is a high level hunter who starts the game with his pet long dead. Shadowfax is probably his long delayed replacement pet.
We know Beorn is a druid.
We know that at least some of the Mordor orcs have class levels because they aren't of uniform skill and experience: the officers are stronger and more experienced. There are at least three gradations. We know the Isengard orcs aren't common orcs. The best fit is bugbears or advanced hobgoblins. Bugbear is a better fit since the CR matches a level 3 orc and they seem to be equal to the Mordor orc officer in the run through Rohan.
We know that some variant HP is used because Bard of Laketown drops a great red wyrm (by age and by size category) with one arrow and that he is still very high level because even with a very conservative wounds/vigor system and him bypassing vigor entirely it takes a lot of vital strike and deadly aim stacking to get even a +5 bane arrow to kill an unwounded colossal dragon in one hit. He may need mythic vital strike.
We know the Mouth is some sort of caster, though we have no details whatsoever.
We know that every single spell that references another plane other than the shadow plane does not exist. That includes all teleportation spells, which require access to the ethereal plane. This almost...
See, this is the kind of analysis that makes no sense to me: A has B ability and is thus X level in Y class - despite not doing anything else that matches that class.
Beorn is a druid? Because he shapeshifts into one specific animal form and likes domestic animals? Despite not showing any signs of spellcasting or any other druid abilities?Gandalf casts something like a druid spell, so he's a mid level druid, despite doing nothing else like a druid at all?
Shadowlords |
We know that some variant HP is used because Bard of Laketown drops a great red wyrm (by age and by size category) with one arrow and that he is still very high level because even with a very conservative wounds/vigor system and him bypassing vigor entirely it takes a lot of vital strike and deadly aim stacking to get even a +5 bane arrow to kill an unwounded colossal dragon in one hit. He may need mythic vital strike.
Fire Drake, not a true dragon, so great wyrm is greatly stretching it. Smaug had no front legs, True dragons are 4 legs with wings making 6 appendages, Smaug only had hind legs and wings.
thejeff |
Atarlost wrote:Fire Drake, not a true dragon, so great wyrm is greatly stretching it. Smaug had no front legs, True dragons are 4 legs with wings making 6 appendages, Smaug only had hind legs and wings.
We know that some variant HP is used because Bard of Laketown drops a great red wyrm (by age and by size category) with one arrow and that he is still very high level because even with a very conservative wounds/vigor system and him bypassing vigor entirely it takes a lot of vital strike and deadly aim stacking to get even a +5 bane arrow to kill an unwounded colossal dragon in one hit. He may need mythic vital strike.
And again, strictly applying a definition from PF to something from another work.
Kobold Catgirl |
Moria goblins - small, weak, light sensitive. Statwise, close to kobolds, but their light-sensitivity is very severe - closer to Sunlight Powerlessness.
This distinction does not exist in the books. :P
I imagine Smaug is like a lich—not many HP, but very good DR. By being informed of the dragon's weak point, Bard was able to ignore that DR. And then he scored a crit.
Shadowlords |
LotR is a low fantasy adventure from the start, all the orcs they are fighting are basic CR 1/2 orcs with the few "boss" encounters, to the person saying Aragon is not a ranger because he doesnt have an animal companion or cast spells, rangers dont get that ability till lvl 4 so clearly Aragon is a level 3 or lower ranger, I would say by the time we get to the 3rd book he has multiclassed into paladin and got aura of courage "giving moral boosts to allies in some battles" i could start talking about the other characters but you have to break it down like this.
How much magic do you see. Little, so low magic fantasy
What are basic Soldiers at CR wise or towns folk. 1/2 - 1
These basic soldiers are able to fight the general hordes of the enemy orcs the orcs numbers are the only threat. so Orcs must be of comparable CR 1/2 - 1. The "heroes" of the story or main characters are going to be better then the common folk but the mass number of the orcs is still a threat so the PC are around CR 4-6
Shadowlords |
Shadowlords wrote:Atarlost wrote:Fire Drake, not a true dragon, so great wyrm is greatly stretching it. Smaug had no front legs, True dragons are 4 legs with wings making 6 appendages, Smaug only had hind legs and wings.
We know that some variant HP is used because Bard of Laketown drops a great red wyrm (by age and by size category) with one arrow and that he is still very high level because even with a very conservative wounds/vigor system and him bypassing vigor entirely it takes a lot of vital strike and deadly aim stacking to get even a +5 bane arrow to kill an unwounded colossal dragon in one hit. He may need mythic vital strike.
And again, strictly applying a definition from PF to something from another work.
I was going with the movie depiction of him and the books constantly referring to him as a Fire Drake. I do not remember the books giving a full description of of how many legs he had but its been 10+ years since i read it.
Kobold Catgirl |
LotR is a low fantasy adventure from the start, all the orcs they are fighting are basic CR 1/2 orcs with the few "boss" encounters, to the person saying Aragon is not a ranger because he doesnt have an animal companion or cast spells, rangers dont get that ability till lvl 4 so clearly Aragon is a level 3 or lower ranger, I would say by the time we get to the 3rd book he has multiclassed into paladin and got aura of courage "giving moral boosts to allies in some battles" i could start talking about the other characters but you have to break it down like this.
How much magic do you see. Little, so low magic fantasy
What are basic Soldiers at CR wise or towns folk. 1/2 - 1
These basic soldiers are able to fight the general hordes of the enemy orcs the orcs numbers are the only threat. so Orcs must be of comparable CR 1/2 - 1. The "heroes" of the story or main characters are going to be better then the common folk but the mass number of the orcs is still a threat so the PC are around CR 4-6
I'd say the Rohirrim mostly have PC class levels, though since they mainly fight the Uruk-hai, that balances out.
Shadowlords |
Shadowlords wrote:I'd say the Rohirrim mostly have PC class levels, though since they mainly fight the Uruk-hai, that balances out.LotR is a low fantasy adventure from the start, all the orcs they are fighting are basic CR 1/2 orcs with the few "boss" encounters, to the person saying Aragon is not a ranger because he doesnt have an animal companion or cast spells, rangers dont get that ability till lvl 4 so clearly Aragon is a level 3 or lower ranger, I would say by the time we get to the 3rd book he has multiclassed into paladin and got aura of courage "giving moral boosts to allies in some battles" i could start talking about the other characters but you have to break it down like this.
How much magic do you see. Little, so low magic fantasy
What are basic Soldiers at CR wise or towns folk. 1/2 - 1
These basic soldiers are able to fight the general hordes of the enemy orcs the orcs numbers are the only threat. so Orcs must be of comparable CR 1/2 - 1. The "heroes" of the story or main characters are going to be better then the common folk but the mass number of the orcs is still a threat so the PC are around CR 4-6
True, i was just pointing out, look for a baseline and expand from there.
And also trying to show that not all fantasy movies and books in conversion have to be high level. Low level fantasy can be just as rewarding and awesome.thejeff |
thejeff wrote:I was going with the movie depiction of him and the books constantly referring to him as a Fire Drake. I do not remember the books giving a full description of of how many legs he had but its been 10+ years since i read it.Shadowlords wrote:Atarlost wrote:Fire Drake, not a true dragon, so great wyrm is greatly stretching it. Smaug had no front legs, True dragons are 4 legs with wings making 6 appendages, Smaug only had hind legs and wings.
We know that some variant HP is used because Bard of Laketown drops a great red wyrm (by age and by size category) with one arrow and that he is still very high level because even with a very conservative wounds/vigor system and him bypassing vigor entirely it takes a lot of vital strike and deadly aim stacking to get even a +5 bane arrow to kill an unwounded colossal dragon in one hit. He may need mythic vital strike.
And again, strictly applying a definition from PF to something from another work.
Perhaps the terms "Fire Drake" and "Dragon" don't mean exactly the same thing in Pathfinder and Tolkien and you can't use one to determine his PF stats? Nor does how many legs the movie people decided to show have anything to do with how powerful Smaug would be in PF terms.
And the picture I linked, showing his forelegs, was actually drawn by Tolkien, so it's as canonical as anything.thejeff |
Atarlost wrote:We know that at least some of the Mordor orcs have class levels because they aren't of uniform skill and experience: the officers are stronger and more experienced. There are at least three gradations. We know the Isengard orcs aren't common orcs. The best fit is bugbears or advanced hobgoblins. Bugbear is a better fit since the CR matches a level 3 orc and they seem to be equal to the Mordor orc officer in the run through Rohan.The film has Boromir fight just Uruk-Hai - in the novel when they find his body they find the three gradations of orc - none of them resemble the orc or half-orc of Golarion.
Moria goblins - small, weak, light sensitive. Statwise, close to kobolds, but their light-sensitivity is very severe - closer to Sunlight Powerlessness.
Black-orcs of Mordor - lighter and weaker than humans, but medium-sized, strong enough to be individually dangerous, though light sensitive.
Uruk-hai - not the hulking brutes of the film, shorter than human, though at least as heavy. Statwise, most like a hobgoblin (Tolkien called them hobgoblins in early printing, though changed that to Uruk-Hai when he realised that the hobgoblin of folklore is smaller and kindlier than a goblin; the OD&D hobgoblin is based off the Uruk-Hai) Uruk-hai aren't meant to be threatening because they're stronger than humans - they're threatening because they're physically equal, as all other orcs are abject wretches.
Named orcs, like Shagrat or Ugluk, would have class levels and elite arrays, evidenced by their ability to dominate other orcs in battle, and Ugluk's claim of killing Boromir (Lurtz is film-only, even if he is cool), but nothing so special as advanced template or even the full-blooded orc's strength.
For this, I don't think the Mordor orcs and moria orc are different species or different size categories. If anything I'd guess the Mordor orcs are better trained soldier - possibly higher level, possibly fighter levels instead of warrior. Both are light sensitive, the Mordor orcs are just tougher and able to function better anyway.
thejeff |
LotR is a low fantasy adventure from the start, all the orcs they are fighting are basic CR 1/2 orcs with the few "boss" encounters, to the person saying Aragon is not a ranger because he doesnt have an animal companion or cast spells, rangers dont get that ability till lvl 4 so clearly Aragon is a level 3 or lower ranger, I would say by the time we get to the 3rd book he has multiclassed into paladin and got aura of courage "giving moral boosts to allies in some battles" i could start talking about the other characters but you have to break it down like this.
How much magic do you see. Little, so low magic fantasy
What are basic Soldiers at CR wise or towns folk. 1/2 - 1
These basic soldiers are able to fight the general hordes of the enemy orcs the orcs numbers are the only threat. so Orcs must be of comparable CR 1/2 - 1. The "heroes" of the story or main characters are going to be better then the common folk but the mass number of the orcs is still a threat so the PC are around CR 4-6
The basic counter argument here is that low magic isn't the same as low level.
Though I'd still argue it's not actually a low magic setting. It's just not a PF magic setting.Also that, since it's not a PF setting, you can't point at specific features and claim that proves anything about classes.
Shadowlords |
Shadowlords wrote:thejeff wrote:I was going with the movie depiction of him and the books constantly referring to him as a Fire Drake. I do not remember the books giving a full description of of how many legs he had but its been 10+ years since i read it.Shadowlords wrote:Atarlost wrote:Fire Drake, not a true dragon, so great wyrm is greatly stretching it. Smaug had no front legs, True dragons are 4 legs with wings making 6 appendages, Smaug only had hind legs and wings.
We know that some variant HP is used because Bard of Laketown drops a great red wyrm (by age and by size category) with one arrow and that he is still very high level because even with a very conservative wounds/vigor system and him bypassing vigor entirely it takes a lot of vital strike and deadly aim stacking to get even a +5 bane arrow to kill an unwounded colossal dragon in one hit. He may need mythic vital strike.
And again, strictly applying a definition from PF to something from another work.
Perhaps the terms "Fire Drake" and "Dragon" don't mean exactly the same thing in Pathfinder and Tolkien and you can't use one to determine his PF stats? Nor does how many legs the movie people decided to show have anything to do with how powerful Smaug would be in PF terms.
And the picture I linked, showing his forelegs, was actually drawn by Tolkien, so it's as canonical as anything.
They clearly do not and i understand this but in this forum we are "critically" analyzing so we can convert it into pathfinder. The Glaringly obvious is the time span between these 2 works.
The Hobbit came out 1937
LotR came out 1954
The "first" Edition of D&D came out 1974
3rd Edition 1983
3.5 what pathfinder is based on came out 2003
and then pathfinder 2007
There are clearly things that do not cross over exactly because we are looking into a different time frame and state of what fantasy was. Dragon and Fire Drake back then could have been a different name for the same thing but now we clearly have a distinction between the 2. Drakes are significantly weaker then dragons and do not casts spells. Smaug i never saw cast spells and was taken down with mundane means by a commoner with some skills and knowledge but is still a major threat to a town. So in my conversion Smaug is a drake.
Shadowlords |
Shadowlords wrote:LotR is a low fantasy adventure from the start, all the orcs they are fighting are basic CR 1/2 orcs with the few "boss" encounters, to the person saying Aragon is not a ranger because he doesnt have an animal companion or cast spells, rangers dont get that ability till lvl 4 so clearly Aragon is a level 3 or lower ranger, I would say by the time we get to the 3rd book he has multiclassed into paladin and got aura of courage "giving moral boosts to allies in some battles" i could start talking about the other characters but you have to break it down like this.
How much magic do you see. Little, so low magic fantasy
What are basic Soldiers at CR wise or towns folk. 1/2 - 1
These basic soldiers are able to fight the general hordes of the enemy orcs the orcs numbers are the only threat. so Orcs must be of comparable CR 1/2 - 1. The "heroes" of the story or main characters are going to be better then the common folk but the mass number of the orcs is still a threat so the PC are around CR 4-6The basic counter argument here is that low magic isn't the same as low level.
Though I'd still argue it's not actually a low magic setting. It's just not a PF magic setting.Also that, since it's not a PF setting, you can't point at specific features and claim that proves anything about classes.
I am not trying to pin class features to a character, I am just pointing out what it resembles, Side note: Aragon can be seen using "wild empathy" to calm the horse in the stables in the 2nd movie / book, another low level ranger ability.
And low magic doesnt mean low level but the setting in Lort it clearly is low level. if the Orcs were CR 5-10 then for the party to be killing the orcs in one hit they would have to be level 15-20 but then all the commoners who fight the orcs and kill some would have to be level 10 as well. again going to movie depiction as that was the latest media to be released of this franchise an Uruk was killed with a single arrow from a simple off the street commoner. what makes more sense? every one is super high level or it is a low level fantasy
thejeff |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They clearly do not and i understand this but in this forum we are "critically" analyzing so we can convert it into pathfinder. The Glaringly obvious is the time span between these 2 works.
The Hobbit came out 1937
LotR came out 1954The "first" Edition of D&D came out 1974
3rd Edition 1983
3.5 what pathfinder is based on came out 2003
and then pathfinder 2007There are clearly things that do not cross over exactly because we are looking into a different time frame and state of what fantasy was. Dragon and Fire Drake back then could have been a different name for the same thing but now we clearly have a distinction between the 2. Drakes are significantly weaker then dragons and do not casts spells. Smaug i never saw cast spells and was taken down with mundane means by a commoner with some skills and knowledge but is still a major threat to a town. So in my conversion Smaug is a drake.
It has nothing to do with time. I can point at modern works with dragons that don't cast spells and are still devastatingly powerful. Or probably no forelegs and do cast spells. Or any other combination.
We don't "now clearly have a distinction between the 2". Pathfinder has a distinction between the two. Other systems or fictional settings may or may not.
You're right that things don't cross over exactly. And that's the entire problem with trying to stat up characters from different works. LotR isn't a high level PF setting or a low level PF setting. It's a thing unto itself.
Shadowlords |
Shadowlords wrote:They clearly do not and i understand this but in this forum we are "critically" analyzing so we can convert it into pathfinder. The Glaringly obvious is the time span between these 2 works.
The Hobbit came out 1937
LotR came out 1954The "first" Edition of D&D came out 1974
3rd Edition 1983
3.5 what pathfinder is based on came out 2003
and then pathfinder 2007There are clearly things that do not cross over exactly because we are looking into a different time frame and state of what fantasy was. Dragon and Fire Drake back then could have been a different name for the same thing but now we clearly have a distinction between the 2. Drakes are significantly weaker then dragons and do not casts spells. Smaug i never saw cast spells and was taken down with mundane means by a commoner with some skills and knowledge but is still a major threat to a town. So in my conversion Smaug is a drake.
It has nothing to do with time. I can point at modern works with dragons that don't cast spells and are still devastatingly powerful. Or probably no forelegs and do cast spells. Or any other combination.
We don't "now clearly have a distinction between the 2". Pathfinder has a distinction between the two. Other systems or fictional settings may or may not.
You're right that things don't cross over exactly. And that's the entire problem with trying to stat up characters from different works. LotR isn't a high level PF setting or a low level PF setting. It's a thing unto itself.
Yes i know this and realize it. but this is the Conversion forum. the whole point of it is to take X (LotR) and compare it to Y (Pathfinder) and make X equal Y as close as we can using pathfinder rules. When i say we now have a distinction of the two i am clearly talking about pathfinder in the terms of a conversion. When i see Aragon Calming the horse i see a successful wild empathy check from the ranger class. Again this is all in the manner of comparing and converting as close as we can.
You can compare any fantasy setting to any other fantasy setting and get similarities. Even though they are completely different. If your stance is you cant compare LotR to pathfinder because they are completely different settings then this message board (The Conversion Message Board) is not for you.
Idle Champion |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can compare any fantasy setting to any other fantasy setting and get similarities. Even though they are completely different. If your stance is you cant compare LotR to pathfinder because they are completely different settings then this message board (The Conversion Message Board) is not for you.
Except... you weren't suggesting a basis for conversion - producing a statted out Smaug monster using PF rules. You were suggesting taking the Fire Drake or Flame Drake and simply treating it as Smaug.
A conversion would be more along the lines of making a customised creature that fits the PF rules: say a Huge NE Dragon with the Fire subtype, frightening presence, line and cone fire breath, 'Waistcoat of Diamonds' armour bonus to AC, suggestion as a SLA, and a 'Weak point' penalty to AC against critical confirmation, along with DR/Magic and DR/Piercing, and an aura of intense heat that could be played as a PF enemy or as Smaug in a LOTR conversion campaign setting.And Smaug wasn't taken down by a commoner.
Shadowlords |
Shadowlords wrote:You can compare any fantasy setting to any other fantasy setting and get similarities. Even though they are completely different. If your stance is you cant compare LotR to pathfinder because they are completely different settings then this message board (The Conversion Message Board) is not for you.Except... you weren't suggesting a basis for conversion - producing a statted out Smaug monster using PF rules. You were suggesting taking the Fire Drake or Flame Drake and simply treating it as Smaug.
A conversion would be more along the lines of making a customised creature that fits the PF rules: say a Huge NE Dragon with the Fire subtype, frightening presence, line and cone fire breath, 'Waistcoat of Diamonds' armour bonus to AC, suggestion as a SLA, and a 'Weak point' penalty to AC against critical confirmation, along with DR/Magic and DR/Piercing, and an aura of intense heat that could be played as a PF enemy or as Smaug in a LOTR conversion campaign setting.And Smaug wasn't taken down by a commoner.
That would be were the conversion comes in, i hadn't gotten to that part yet. i was talking about a base creature to start from. what is smaug most like before getting into the nitty gritty of makeing him unique. Is he more like a full blown dragon that pathfinder has with spell casting and all or more like a drake. if you want to make him a dragon without spells go for it i am in no way in control of what you do. but in my opinion smaug is more like a PF fire drake then a PF red dragon. now take the fire drake and make him unique like you did.
A ballista wielded by a commoner or a 20th level char does the same amount of damage, all that mattered was the dragon bane ballista bolt and that bard knew about the weak spot granting what ever bonus you desire. the "level" of bard / what he was capable of combat wise is beyond what i remember. but he was a "hero" in the story so maybe level 3-4 in something
My Self |
Idle Champion wrote:Shadowlords wrote:You can compare any fantasy setting to any other fantasy setting and get similarities. Even though they are completely different. If your stance is you cant compare LotR to pathfinder because they are completely different settings then this message board (The Conversion Message Board) is not for you.Except... you weren't suggesting a basis for conversion - producing a statted out Smaug monster using PF rules. You were suggesting taking the Fire Drake or Flame Drake and simply treating it as Smaug.
A conversion would be more along the lines of making a customised creature that fits the PF rules: say a Huge NE Dragon with the Fire subtype, frightening presence, line and cone fire breath, 'Waistcoat of Diamonds' armour bonus to AC, suggestion as a SLA, and a 'Weak point' penalty to AC against critical confirmation, along with DR/Magic and DR/Piercing, and an aura of intense heat that could be played as a PF enemy or as Smaug in a LOTR conversion campaign setting.And Smaug wasn't taken down by a commoner.
That would be were the conversion comes in, i hadn't gotten to that part yet. i was talking about a base creature to start from. what is smaug most like before getting into the nitty gritty of makeing him unique. Is he more like a full blown dragon that pathfinder has with spell casting and all or more like a drake. if you want to make him a dragon without spells go for it i am in no way in control of what you do. but in my opinion smaug is more like a PF fire drake then a PF red dragon. now take the fire drake and make him unique like you did.
A ballista wielded by a commoner or a 20th level char does the same amount of damage, all that mattered was the dragon bane ballista bolt and that bard knew about the weak spot granting what ever bonus you desire. the "level" of bard / what he was capable of combat wise is beyond what i remember. but he was a "hero" in the story so maybe level 3-4 in something
Actually, I'm pretty sure a 20th level character could be doing much, much more with a ballista. Vital Strike + Improved Vital Strike + Greater Vital Strike, maybe with Deadly Aim. Weapon Focus is a thing, maybe Weapon Specialization and Greater Focus/Specialization. Depending on the class, Arcane Strike and Blooded Arcane Strike might be available. And that's not saying anything about their actual classes.
But that aside, there's a disconnect with expectations: Some people here think Lord of the Rings is a low-level campaign, while others thing that Lord of the Rings was a high-level campaign with alterations (low magic, altered spell lists, etc.)
Also, on an unrelated note, why is a King a level 16 Aristocrat?
Idle Champion |
Also, on an unrelated note, why is a King a level 16 Aristocrat?
There's a few statted-out NPC Kings - you can see that Archives of Nethys also has an Aristocrat 10 King as well.
If the question is 'Why is a King an Aristocrat', its because he was trained and counselled by others for a specific role that he had a claim on since childhood. His coronation was not a heroic destiny, but the culmination of the work of dozens, if not hundreds of other people of great resource and influence. If the question is 'Why is a King Level 16', I'd assume that one is built for high-level campaigns where the king reflects a more powerful and wealthy kingdom.
A ballista wielded by a commoner or a 20th level char does the same amount of damage, all that mattered was the dragon bane ballista bolt and that bard knew about the weak spot granting what ever bonus you desire. the "level" of bard / what he was capable of combat wise is beyond what i remember. but he was a "hero" in the story so maybe level 3-4 in something
Your use of ballista, rather than longbow, points to a second issue, as does the 'Smaug leg count'.
Are people talking about a conversion of the films of the books, because there are quite a few salient differences.
My Self |
My Self wrote:Also, on an unrelated note, why is a King a level 16 Aristocrat?There's a few statted-out NPC Kings - you can see that Archives of Nethys also has an Aristocrat 10 King as well.
If the question is 'Why is a King an Aristocrat', its because he was trained and counselled by others for a specific role that he had a claim on since childhood. His coronation was not a heroic destiny, but the culmination of the work of dozens, if not hundreds of other people of great resource and influence. If the question is 'Why is a King Level 16', I'd assume that one is built for high-level campaigns where the king reflects a more powerful and wealthy kingdom.
Shadowlord wrote:A ballista wielded by a commoner or a 20th level char does the same amount of damage, all that mattered was the dragon bane ballista bolt and that bard knew about the weak spot granting what ever bonus you desire. the "level" of bard / what he was capable of combat wise is beyond what i remember. but he was a "hero" in the story so maybe level 3-4 in somethingYour use of ballista, rather than longbow, points to a second issue, as does the 'Smaug leg count'.
Are people talking about a conversion of the films of the books, because there are quite a few salient differences.
Either/Or/Both
Though I'd probably go more book than movie. They make Aragorn look weak in the movies. Oh, and there's the Legolas effect (not good), which is entirely in the movies.
Idle Champion |
Then, to get the idea of a LOTR-universe power curve rolling.
20th Level - Feanor. Killed by a mob of Balrogs, including Gothmog, their captain. Created the Silmarils, objects of greater radiance and power than the sun and moon. Item crafting suggests a caster level, battlefield prowess suggests a Magus or Bloodrager.
17th Level - Hurin Thalion. Single-handedly bought time for an Elven army to retreat from the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Killed an orc with every stroke, was not overwhelmed until hundreds of orcs and dozens of trolls lay dead. Armoured Hulk Barbarian.
13th Level - Isildur. Already a hero before his kin left Numenor, rescuing the Faithful and stealing the sapling of the royal tree. Survived the years-long siege of Mordor when Sauron was at the height of his power. Failed his Will save against the One Ring, and died pretty easy when ambushed. Fighter, with certain qualities suggesting a Paladin dip.
Once you get into the third age its very clear that people have gotten weaker. The deeds of heroes have gotten less impressive, and against less impressive enemies. Gimli and Legolas get through Helm's Deep with their kill count, but they had backup to raise their APL, and their enemy is trained yet unblooded Uruk-Hai - Hobgoblin Warrior 1s with a CR of 1/2. The impression is that they did this with great difficulty, and that others around them found this feat extraordinary. Both of them are described as being able to kill enemies very quickly when the need arises, suggesting at least one iterative attack. But there's very little to suggest that they are anything more impressive than a Level 6 Fighter or Barbarian and a Level 6 Ranger or Slayer or Level 8 Rogue.
1st Level - The vast majority of random fools.
My Self |
Then, to get the idea of a LOTR-universe power curve rolling.
20th Level - Feanor. Killed by a mob of Balrogs, including Gothmog, their captain. Created the Silmarils, objects of greater radiance and power than the sun and moon. Item crafting suggests a caster level, battlefield prowess suggests a Magus or Bloodrager.
17th Level - Hurin Thalion. Single-handedly bought time for an Elven army to retreat from the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Killed an orc with every stroke, was not overwhelmed until hundreds of orcs and dozens of trolls lay dead. Armoured Hulk Barbarian.
13th Level - Isildur. Already a hero before his kin left Numenor, rescuing the Faithful and stealing the sapling of the royal tree. Survived the years-long siege of Mordor when Sauron was at the height of his power. Failed his Will save against the One Ring, and died pretty easy when ambushed. Fighter, with certain qualities suggesting a Paladin dip.
Once you get into the third age its very clear that people have gotten weaker. The deeds of heroes have gotten less impressive, and against less impressive enemies. Gimli and Legolas get through Helm's Deep with their kill count, but they had backup to raise their APL, and their enemy is trained yet unblooded Uruk-Hai - Hobgoblin Warrior 1s with a CR of 1/2. The impression is that they did this with great difficulty, and that others around them found this feat extraordinary. Both of them are described as being able to kill enemies very quickly when the need arises, suggesting at least one iterative attack. But there's very little to suggest that they are anything more impressive than a Level 6 Fighter or Barbarian and a Level 6 Ranger or Slayer or Level 8 Rogue.
1st Level - The vast majority of random fools.
I'd think that Uruk-hai would be higher CR than regular Orcs- they're supposedly magically or eugenically engineered super-half-orcs. Also, possibility of Feanor being a battle Cleric?
Atarlost |
Atarlost wrote:We know that at least some of the Mordor orcs have class levels because they aren't of uniform skill and experience: the officers are stronger and more experienced. There are at least three gradations. We know the Isengard orcs aren't common orcs. The best fit is bugbears or advanced hobgoblins. Bugbear is a better fit since the CR matches a level 3 orc and they seem to be equal to the Mordor orc officer in the run through Rohan.The film has Boromir fight just Uruk-Hai - in the novel when they find his body they find the three gradations of orc - none of them resemble the orc or half-orc of Golarion.
Moria goblins - small, weak, light sensitive. Statwise, close to kobolds, but their light-sensitivity is very severe - closer to Sunlight Powerlessness.
Black-orcs of Mordor - lighter and weaker than humans, but medium-sized, strong enough to be individually dangerous, though light sensitive.
Uruk-hai - not the hulking brutes of the film, shorter than human, though at least as heavy. Statwise, most like a hobgoblin (Tolkien called them hobgoblins in early printing, though changed that to Uruk-Hai when he realised that the hobgoblin of folklore is smaller and kindlier than a goblin; the OD&D hobgoblin is based off the Uruk-Hai) Uruk-hai aren't meant to be threatening because they're stronger than humans - they're threatening because they're physically equal, as all other orcs are abject wretches.
Named orcs, like Shagrat or Ugluk, would have class levels and elite arrays, evidenced by their ability to dominate other orcs in battle, and Ugluk's claim of killing Boromir (Lurtz is film-only, even if he is cool), but nothing so special as advanced template or even the full-blooded orc's strength.
Only if you never read the books.
Hill orcs are larger than dwarves. They're definitely not goblins. Goblin is just a racial slur for orcs. These are your warrior 1 orcs or hobgoblins at the bottom. The hobgolbin stat array may be a better fit.
Mordor orcs are better fed and better trained. They're fighter 1 at the bottom. Their officers are higher level. That's your named orcs. Going from standard array NPC class to elite array PC class is +1 CR so we're talking CR 1.
Mordor officers must continually prove their superiority to their troops. That requires higher level. They're level 2 fighters and CR 2. Possibly there's another layer of officers and Shagrat and Ugluk are fighter 3, but it's not strictly necessary.
Uruk Hai are more effective in combat than Mordor orcs. They're younger and so should not have more class levels, but are trained as the hill orcs aren't and therefore fighters rather than warriors. That means either using plain bugbears or templating a hobgoblin with 1 fighter level.
If you're using the excuse that the hobgoblin is based on the Uruk Hai as an excuse to declare them CR 1/2 nothings you have to also argue that the balron being a balrog rip off requires Gandalf to be capable of soloing one. You can't claim that Gygax interpretation of orcs is perfect while his interpretation of balrogs massively overestimates the original.
Idle Champion |
I'd think that Uruk-hai would be higher CR than regular Orcs- they're supposedly magically or eugenically engineered super-half-orcs.
The movies blend Saruman's half-orcs and the Uruk-Hai together, but they're not quite so individually dangerous in the novels. They're clearly tougher and braver than regular orcs, they're only relatively super by comparison to regular orcs - they have a higher CR by being CR 1/2, rather than CR 1/3, while their veterans and officers start to push up towards actually being a threat to the Third Age heroes. Their big advantage over other orcs is slightly better morale and discipline combined with their lack of a sunlight vulnerability - the Moria goblins can only barely travel in sunlight with the Uruk-Hai and black-orcs forcing them to run, and are described as laying about panting like dogs when they stop running.
As for Feanor being a divine caster... I don't see it in the character. He's credited with inventing spells and crafting magic items, he defied the will of the Valar, he was ruled by his oath and his temper rather than a moral compass. He's not the servant of a higher power.
Atarlost... saying 'only if you never read the books' in response to my comment about a chapter from the books is somewhat pointless.