Optimizing a Shadow Eidolon(Spirit Summoner)

[TheOddGoblin]

I'm looking to build a Summoner(spirit summoner archetype) with the Bones spirit, giving him a necromancer vibe and theme. Race hasn't been chosen yet, but I was debating between Human, Fetchling(possibly Shadow Summoner if their compatible), and Wayang(or Gnome) as the race of choice for this character but I'm open to suggestions. The idea I have behind the character is a sort of witch doctor spirit warrior type of theme. Voodoo dolls, undead hounds as servants, and a massive shadow eidolon that fights for him while he remains in the back using spells and hexes to hinder his foes. Character stats before racial adjustments are 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12 and we're starting at 9th level.

I'm looking for ways to optimize both the Summoner himself, his hex(es), and to make the Eidolon as efficient as possible as it likely will be our party's tank and dps role(after our Slayer). I'm planning on giving it both the shadow evolutions, and likely giving it the undead evolution if the general consensus is that it is worth it. I'm undecided on which Base Form to go with, but I'm leaning towards Bipedal, and I'm preferring manufactured weapons over natural attacks. Any suggestions are more than welcome!

[solitary_solidarity]

Half-elf might be worth a little consideration. Their favored-class bonus is 1/4 of an evolution point per level. That would give you two more points in your pool to work with at 9th level.

[TheOddGoblin]

Half-elf seems like a good idea, those extra evolutions will be an asset for sure. Thanks for that.

[TheOddGoblin]

I'm contemplating a 3-4 level dip into Witch(Gravewalker) to add a little more flavor to the character. What are people's thoughts on this?

[TheOddGoblin]

Anyone?

[gustavo iglesias]

Dips are rarelly worth it with spellcasters, specially not worth it if your dip 3-4 lvls, and even worse into a different spellcasting class. For flavor it can be cool, but you are asking for optimization

[cavernshark]

TheOddGoblin wrote:

Anyone?

As gusztavo said, I don't think it's a good idea to dip witch in this case. You are already going to need decent wisdom to keep your hex DCs reasonable and need a decent Charisma for your summoner spells. Witch will effectively add a third casting stat for you. You'll also end up cutting into your effective eidolon level, which sounds pretty important to your overall concept for the permanent melee combatant (otherwise I'd just suggest you make a shaman to focus on hexes and spells). Overall I think you'd end up just dillutiung all your abilities for very marginal gains in flavor (you're already an arcane "necromancer" with hexes.).

One thing to keep in mind is you lack a lot of traditional tools to deal with undead (assuming you plan to raise those undead hounds and not just summon them) and you'll have fewer spells per day with which to do it on a 6th level caster. The hexes will help give you extra mileage in combat but I think you'll still feel a bit strapped to do all the things you're describing.

[TheOddGoblin]

I'm looking more towards optimizing the character within the confines of the build I'm going for while keeping the theme.

I really like the Gravewalker Witch, and would very much like to dip into it for the "voodoo" doll and using the doll for touch attacks but I would also like to make my Eidolon efficient while maintaining the undead/necromantic theme of the character. Our group isn't much for min/max'ing their characters so this character need not be brojen or overly powerful. I'm thinking Claws with rending, and going through the Rending Fury feat chain might help to make up for the half-damage from melee that Shadow Form gives. Improved Damage(claws) and Improved Natural Attack(Claws) could then up the damage ante as well.

I'm mainly looking for good hex choices, good feats for the Summoner, and ideas for how to go about the build in a way that is overall going to be fun and effective. With it being only a 3-4 level dip, could I get away with an Intelligence of 14 while having the 18 and 16 go elsewhere(like Charisma and Wisdom for example). If I go half-elf, the floating +2 could go into Int, giving him a 18, 16, 16 in Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence respectively. It's still has a little MADness, but I think I could get away with that and also add utility to the character by spending skill points in useful skills and give him a role as both a face(albeit a creepy one) as well as other role(s).

The Eidolon itself can get some feats and evolutions that give it some utility though I'm mainly looking at it as an "undead" warrior role for the party.

[cavernshark]

TheOddGoblin wrote:

I'm looking more towards optimizing the character within the confines of the build I'm going for while keeping the theme.

I really like the Gravewalker Witch, and would very much like to dip into it for the "voodoo" doll and using the doll for touch attacks but I would also like to make my Eidolon efficient while maintaining the undead/necromantic theme of the character. Our group isn't much for min/max'ing their characters so this character need not be brojen or overly powerful. I'm thinking Claws with rending, and going through the Rending Fury feat chain might help to make up for the half-damage from melee that Shadow Form gives. Improved Damage(claws) and Improved Natural Attack(Claws) could then up the damage ante as well.

I'm mainly looking for good hex choices, good feats for the Summoner, and ideas for how to go about the build in a way that is overall going to be fun and effective. With it being only a 3-4 level dip, could I get away with an Intelligence of 14 while having the 18 and 16 go elsewhere(like Charisma and Wisdom for example). If I go half-elf, the floating +2 could go into Int, giving him a 18, 16, 16 in Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence respectively. It's still has a little MADness, but I think I could get away with that and also add utility to the character by spending skill points in useful skills and give him a role as both a face(albeit a creepy one) as well as other role(s).

The Eidolon itself can get some feats and evolutions that give it some utility though I'm mainly looking at it as an "undead" warrior role for the party.

I still think you're overestimating what you can realistically cover with this build. Let's sketch out your level 9 build for instance.

Assuming you go minimum dip into witch based on your parameters you are looking at 3 levels. With your 16 int you'll have 3 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells per day. Your DCs for those spells are going to be only 14 and 15 before feats.

On the summoner side you will have 5 1st level and 3 2nd level spells, each with DCs of 15 and 16 before feats. Your eidolon will also only be level 6, meaning that you'll probably need to eat a lot of spells just to buff him to keep up.

Those are all reasonable DCs for early levels but against opponents your level they are likely not going to cut it. Further, where you'd have level 5 spells on a single classed witch or 3rd levels spells almost to 4th on a single classed summoner, you will only have 2nd level spells on this build, just about to get 3rd. On using a voodoo doll for touch spells, a lot of the ones you would end up casting are from witch, but since you'll only have a few and they will not be high DC you may find it tough to actually use them practically. Finally, your last piece is hexes. None of them will scale well since any you pick up from witch will be baserd on witch levels and your INT, while ones from Spirit Summoner will be based on your summoner level and WIS. You'll have all the class features on paper but all will be substantially diminished. If you're willing to drop one of the three components, I think you'll be happier.

In any event, you should pick up Evil Eye and Cackle (if you end up with more witch hexes) or Evil Eye and Chant if you focus on getting Shaman Hexes from Spirit Summoner. Both are staples that let you spend rounds creating and maintaining debuffs on opponents. Of the two, Shaman is more powerful until/unless it's errata'd since it is not mind affecting. Also consider Misfortune for the witch side. This is a good guide for debuffing as a witch. I'm not a huge fan of the once per day hexes personally, but you do have hex vulnerability on the witch list to help mitigate that a bit. So after the evil eye / cackle (chant) combo I'd probably look to pick up some additional utility. The witch fly hex is great if you can get to a high enough witch level for it to really kick in. You may need to take the Shaman Witch hex to grab it and still have it scale.

In the event you consider your multi class approach, here are a few sample alternatives:

1. Full Gravewalker Witch, focus on using hexes and debuff touch attacks, only summoning additional minions when necessary. Take spell focus necromancy and skeletal summoner feats to bring your undead champion in when you need it, otherwise focus on debuffing.

2. Full Spirit Summoner, focus on your few shaman hexes for offensive debuffing and use spell slots to buff your undead themed eidolon and the party. Most of your feats after level 6 probably going to Extra Hex to get more hexes. Don't try to deliver touch debuffs (even from range)

3. (Wild Card) Arcanist, Occultist and Unlettered Archetypes. Standard action summons and witch spell list. No hexes, but can get summons into the field. Can also take school understanding: necromancy to have command undead. Full arcane spell list and spectral hand make delivering touch debuffs easy.

[gustavo iglesias]

I agree with cavernshark. If you like the vodoo aspect, build the witch and pass on the summoner. Losing 3 caster levels to get a second arcane caster class is s bad idea, from a mechanical point of view.

And an underleveled eidolon will suffer a lot in the front line

[Hazrond]

Maybe you could go witch with summoner VMC?

[TheOddGoblin]

I haven't actually looked at the VMC rules, I'll have to give them a look.

[TheOddGoblin]

I've decided to go with just the straight Spirit Summoner, it forgoes a little bit of the flavor I was wanting but it is overall a better choice in my opinion.

Any options and opinions on optimizing it are still more than welcome.

[avr]

A hexing doll goes well for flavour and may occasionally be useful.

You'll have a decent wisdom due to wanting it for the hexes; if you're creepy enough to worship one of the Great Old Ones you might therefore get Believer's Boon (Void/Dark Tapestry).

[cavernshark]

TheOddGoblin wrote:

I've decided to go with just the straight Spirit Summoner, it forgoes a little bit of the flavor I was wanting but it is overall a better choice in my opinion.

Any options and opinions on optimizing it are still more than welcome.

Definitely pick up Evil Eye (shaman version) for your first hex at 6 and probably Chant at 8. Those two will let your summoner roll / maintain debuffs on opponents and will probably be your default / filler actions. Misfortune is another strong contender for a general debuff. I also think Shapeshift is a good hex since its very versatile and you could probably still hex in those forms. If you have intentions of pucking up animate dead from you spirit spell list and since since you get a negative energy touch attack from the Bones mystery, Deaths Succor could be good to heal yourself and your minions and your Eidolon thanks to the Undead Appearance evo. Keep in mind this may cut you off from other forms of healing so I would talk to your party first.

For your other feats after level 6 you will want Extra Hex since you only get another at 10 and 16. However save at least one spot for Spirit Talker. If you don't take it before you start your game as your level 7 or 9 feat, be sure to get it relatively soon. It will let you cherry pick a hex off of other spirit lists for a day. Some good contenders are Heavens Leap (equivalent to a 3rd level bard spell useable on each party member once a day good for getting folks into and out of threat range) or Lure of the Heavens at or after 11 (minutes of flight per level per day). You can also look at and swap in one of several curses from the elemental spirits that debuff opponents to particular ally attacks (e.g. Beckoning Chill, Flame Curse, Sparking Aura). This is obviously target and party specific, but still worth keeping in mind.

Lastly, definitely invest in a good UMD score. You should have a good charisma and maybe skill focus (umd) if you go half elf for the extra evolution points FCB. This will let you grab some wands for spells like hex vulnerability (get at least CL 2), command undead, or inflict moderate wounds (to augment your spirit ability if you take Deaths Succor).