I'm really confused about this.
I'm going with 20 point buy and the following
STR 7 - 2
DEX 14 + 2
CON 14
INT 18 + 2
WIS 10
CHA 7
What do you guys think? I've never played a Wizard, so I can't really tell if I should start with an 18 in INT.
I mean, it's really tempting having 7 Skill Points at level 1, that will help me with all my skills, but is it really necessary?
Well, you got your stat order right. 20 INT will get you some pretty scary saves on those cantrips (DC 15!), but it's not really necessary. Depending on who you go up against, it might be worth it to not have Strength down at 5- That puts you within a Shadow's 1d6 strength drain ability. Still, as a SAD class, you'd be fine with just a really, really high INT.
Yeah, I'm not really sure, I mean, yes, I can have more STR, but not sure on the long run if it's going to matter. I could start at 10 STR with -2 from Race and still drop against 2 attacks from a shadow.
Unless I have a STR like 14 I'm still susceptible to STR damage.
I don't like dumping WIS, that's why I have 10, I do it with CHA because in all honestly, DEX and CON are more important, but I'm not really sure I really need a 16 to DEX.
Yes, early game will help, but it seems way too much, I could drop those points into CHA and make a more likable wizard
Smart wizards are the most likable wizards because they pop down the most spells, the strongest spells, and can use their extra skill points to be better at being a face than a pretty wizard. Boosting your saves is important, too.
Also, does your GM watch your carrying capacity? If not, a strength dump isn't too bad.
I do it myself, I'm a law abiding player, so I always check my cargo and make sure I have enough to be on light load, always.
I usually get Handy Haversack and the Aunt mule thingies, which gives +8 STR for carrying.
I could also go:
STR 10 - 2
DEX 14 + 2 keep in mind I'm Small, so that's +1 AC, but 20 ft speed
CON 14
INT 16 + 2
WIS 10
CHA 10
To be honest, THIS setup seems more reasonable! But, I'm losing 1 Skill Points and a 1st Spell (with 20 you get 2 instead of 1), so let's look at them:
Spellcraft
Nature
Planes
Religion > Could replace if a Cleric has it, but let's be real, cleric have so few skill points and no INT bonus.
Arcana
Dungeoneering
That's 6 SKill Points. That means no space for Perception, one of the most valuable skills in PF. No skill points in Fly (which I'm going to need further in my adventures).
Yes, I could forgo Religion, or put points into odd levels, but I'm still behind in Perception, which means it won't be useful.
Bard or no bard? Also remember: UMD.
Since you've got a pretty hot INT bonus, you can drop one of your skills for a level (probably knowledge planes, how many outsiders are you going to be seeing at level 1?) to put the point into Perception. Then you could max Perception and alternate which knowledge skill you don't rank up.
No Bard, that's for sure. UMD? I'm not proficient in that, you're thinking about getting proficiency though a trait to use it?
High INT is nice, but not a be all end all for wizards.
There are plenty of spells that do not have DCs at all- haste, summoning, etc. And some of them are among the best options a wizard can use. If that is your focus, you can get away with a more modest INT.
High INT mostly means a couple extra spells and a better DC on the spells with saving throws.
If you feel that some of your stats are too low, then it is perfectly fine to drop that 20 to an 18. That could, for instance, raise your cha by 6 points, making UMD much, much easier.
Sidenote- shouldn't your wisdom be an 11? You are working off of 19 points right now, and wisdom is the only place where you can put it (everything else needs at least 2 pts to raise)
High INT is nice, but not a be all end all for wizards.
There are plenty of spells that do not have DCs at all- haste, summoning, etc. And some of them are among the best options a wizard can use.
High INT mostly means a couple extra spells and a better DC on the spells with saving throws.
If you feel that some of your stats are too low, then it is perfectly fine to drop that 20 to an 18. That could, for instance, raise your cha by 6 points, making UMD much, much easier.
Sidenote- shouldn't your wisdom be an 11? You are working off of 19 points right now, and wisdom is the only place where you can put it (everything else needs at least 2 pts to raise)
Fair point about CHA, and actually my play style favors summons/control spells/buffs and the occasional debuff/blast spell.
I think I'm going with the second setup, it seems better, easier to roleplay as I wish (without having inherent negative attitudes because of my low CHA) and even though I lose one Skill Point, I can ditch Religion and get Perception.
Fly and UMD are secondary skills until really high levels, and my early game focus will be on INT items and maybe DEX or AC.
Double checked on PF site, the build calculator says no points left for 10-14-14-16-10-10
Double checked on PF site, the build calculator says no points left for 10-14-14-16-10-10
whoops, missed your changed stats. I menat the original post, with the two 7's and the 18 before racials.
Double checked on PF site, the build calculator says no points left for 10-14-14-16-10-10whoops, missed your changed stats. I menat the original post, with the two 7's and the 18 before racials.
Are there any drawbacks of being Small? I'm concerned about that, I mean 20 speed it seems, bad can't tell
Being small gives you weaker melee attacks and lower CMD. You also don't polymorph into giant scary creatures as well as a larger guy. Otherwise, small is usually good for casters.
I'm undecided on playing a Ratfolk or a Tiefling. Being small gives me +1 AC, but 20 speed. Tiefling gives Resist Elements 5 and a Tail to manipulate items, though I doubt I could need that as a caster, but you never know!
I'm sorry but I'd say pump it as high as you able. More spell and higher saves. That is what you are there for
Also being small and 20 move are eventually not an issue at mid-higher levels, avoid fights until then.
It's 18 from 20 such a huge difference? It's a difference between have 7 CHA and 5 STR, against having 8 STR and 10 CHA.
I don't like dumping stats and not roleplaying them. Yes, you can't roleplay a STR dump, but you're kinda forced to do a low WIS/CHA.
What's your play style, do you prefer buffing or blasting? Battlefield control and group buffs can mostly be done with a moderate INT, blasting and save-or-dies should have a maximized save. At the very least, you need 13 before equipment if you want to get access to all your spell levels.
Wizards imo are master schemers, so I go with buffs and battlefield control. Anything to annoy the enemy and favor my allies. I'm trying to stay away from Blast and Save or Die/Suck spells, because those can fail and I did nothing on my turn. I'd rather take a spell with moderate effect that always work.
It's less that you need a lot of INT and more that you don't need anything else. Student of Philosophy trait lets you use Intelligence for any Charisma-purposes that might matter to you. As long as DEX, CON, and WIS are in the positives you can dump with impunity and it will not affect your ability to be a Wizard at all.
Well, I'm going this way, what do you guys think:
I'm going to be a tiefling
STR 8
DEX 14 + 2
CON 14
INT 16 + 2
WIS 10
CHA 10 -2
Remember to pick the tail trait.
Ratfolk Scent is probably pretty valuable, but Tiefling is just as valid a choice for Wizard. You have a lower chance to hit, but get some cool outsider things (immune to Dominate Person, Hold Person, etc.)
Mostly? I don't wanna be small lol. It's really annoying early game, and being outsider is a great perk, not mentioning the Resistance 5, it might not seem much, but it's nice having around.
Plus the tail will help me a lot on action economy, and overall, flavor wise tieflings are awesome
Why is being small annoying?
Why is being small annoying?
Well, sometimes I feel there are more drawbacks than advantages.
-4 to CMB, 20 speed, all of that for just a +1 Attack/AC.That +1 Attack is mostly useless for Wizards, at least my type, because I won't be doing much attacks anyway, and +1 AC it's not a great benefit.
20ft Speed can hinder a lot sometimes, specially when positioning in combat, until I get fly/haste.
Tiefling on the other hands gives me resistance 5, which I'm not sure if it's that great, but I also have a tail which grants me a swift action to retrieve an item, which again, can't tell if it's useful or not
-4 CMB? Being small only has a -1 to CMB/CMD.
Small does not automatically mean 20' movement speed. A number of small races move faster. A few medium races also move 20'.
As for the comparison to Tieflings, I wasn't asking about that. I was just asking why "small" is annoying. It sounds like you have a problem with how many small races are set up, not the size itself.
Your original point buy was the best.
It's 5 STR and 7 CHA, 2 really low stats, do you really think that's worth +2 INT? I'm getting an extra level 1 Spell, and that at level 1 is HUGE, and 1 skill points, but I can't decide, I'm not really experienced, so I can't tell what is the impact going to be on having 2 really low stats.
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The only scary thing is dealing with shadows or other strength damaging enemies. The charisma is a non-factor (besides exceptionally rare charisma draining effects). I think the benefits of the higher INT far outweigh the risks of low str scores. If you ever need to carry more use ant haul and/or muleback cords.
Small gives you some extra AC and a +1 to hit. It makes you bad in grapples but you weren't going to win those anyway, so why bother? Plus you can reduce person to Tiny size and get even more bonuses to Stealth and getting into tight places. Sometimes this is important.
Small gives you some extra AC and a +1 to hit. It makes you bad in grapples but you weren't going to win those anyway, so why bother? Plus you can reduce person to Tiny size and get even more bonuses to Stealth and getting into tight places. Sometimes this is important.
Yes, I'm going ratfolk. Honestly I'd rather have lower STR than CHA, I don't like being so low on charisma.
I did find an alternative racial trait that switches Darkvision for lowlight and gives me 30ft speed, but I think Darkvision is way more important
I'm not crazy about 5 STR, that's a massive weakness if your opponent knows to aim for it. Personally I tend to go with 17 in my main stat when I'm playing a SAD caster. Less pb intense and I get a bump to 18 at level 4 anyway.