Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Starfinder


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

[d20pfsrd.com] Starjammer: Pathfinder in Space!


Product Discussion

201 to 242 of 242 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's now available here at Paizo!!!

http://paizo.com/products/btpy9r60?Starjammer-Core-Rulebook


I've just downloaded my copy. I'm currently reading Frog's Game Northlands Saga complete, so I've only gave the PDF a cursory look.

It's an interesting setting and the MagiC Vs Tech (or Fantasy VS Sci-Fi) flexibility is pretty cool and gives me a I.C.E. Dark Space impression.

Although it's not a Spelljammer clone (nor is it Starfinder), I can easily see myself use this product with a High magic/Low tech Feel and do a Spelljammer-like campaign in Golarionspace in Pathfinder Current Era.

Well once Northlands Saga is finished, this is my next "To read and Review" book, but I wanted to share my first impressions.


d20pfsrd.com wrote:

It's now available here at Paizo!!!

Starjammer

Link'd.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I bought it. So far it is a pretty neat book. I cannot wait for some deckplans or the like to be released so we can visualize what these "ship blocks" look like in scale and I cannot wait for some automation (like a spreadsheet) to be created for starships.


Well look like someone jumped into the Starjammer fun early on. Production Platform 3 has introduced The Prometheus Protocols and small supplement for genetically modifed human (I haven't bought/read it yet, so no clue if any good).


Will pick up on Wednesday.

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Prometheus Protocols is just the 1st of many 3pp products in the planning stages as Starjammer-compatible releases. We're EXTREMELY excited to have this level of support!

ALSO! We're planning to have another license that allows 3pp to actually be in the same universe flavor-wise, that is, build one setting by linking their flavor/setting content to the core setting, thereby building a linked universe of awesome content. More on that to come later!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bodhizen wrote:
remoh wrote:

This interest me. I will be running a "Kingmaker in Space," down the line. Will you be addressing the pathfinder Campaign rules (down time, kingdom running, etc)?

Thanks for your question, Remoh!

I'm not really certain what you feel needs to be addressed with regard to the Pathfinder campaign rules. Can you please clarify your question for me?

Here's one that I made for our group. It worked really well.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u6wy?Kingmaker-In-Space#1


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
d20pfsrd.com wrote:

Prometheus Protocols is just the 1st of many 3pp products in the planning stages as Starjammer-compatible releases. We're EXTREMELY excited to have this level of support!

ALSO! We're planning to have another license that allows 3pp to actually be in the same universe flavor-wise, that is, build one setting by linking their flavor/setting content to the core setting, thereby building a linked universe of awesome content. More on that to come later!

Woot! This be awesome :) One of my friends is really good at making planet maps as well. So much you can tell from a map :)


I hope I'm wrong, but I can't figure out how space travel isn't prohibitively expensive even with the extra ship wealth by level. PCs get a free ship at level 1, but it's not going to do them any good if it can't move. The cheapest engine (Starwind) is 160,000gp, which a party of four can only begin to afford at level 5. With this engine it'll take them roughly 10 years to travel from one side of a solar system to the next, so it's not exactly ideal from an adventuring standpoint, but it might could work in a small Firefly-esque cluster.

Interstellar travel is pretty much outside of a party's means at all outside of spells or slipstreams, as reliably traveling a parsec without dying of old age takes at least a Phase Box, which is only affordable by a party of 4 at level 19. The Gravity Whip is completely unattainable, costing over eight times what said party's pooled ship wealth is at level 20.

Is there something I'm missing here? It's an obvious fix to just adjust the prices to reasonable levels for my campaign, but it'd be nice to know if it's really as broken as it seems before doing so.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Cadvin wrote:

I hope I'm wrong, but I can't figure out how space travel isn't prohibitively expensive even with the extra ship wealth by level. PCs get a free ship at level 1, but it's not going to do them any good if it can't move. The cheapest engine (Starwind) is 160,000gp, which a party of four can only begin to afford at level 5. With this engine it'll take them roughly 10 years to travel from one side of a solar system to the next, so it's not exactly ideal from an adventuring standpoint, but it might could work in a small Firefly-esque cluster.

Interstellar travel is pretty much outside of a party's means at all outside of spells or slipstreams, as reliably traveling a parsec without dying of old age takes at least a Phase Box, which is only affordable by a party of 4 at level 19. The Gravity Whip is completely unattainable, costing over eight times what said party's pooled ship wealth is at level 20.

Is there something I'm missing here? It's an obvious fix to just adjust the prices to reasonable levels for my campaign, but it'd be nice to know if it's really as broken as it seems before doing so.

Don't forget that the ships come with a built-in point buy. So if you have your party start off with a simple Corvette, they have 9 points of point buy to add things like engines (a Phase Box costs 4 points, Raid Boosters cost 2, etc.) I assumed that these points could be freely spent on such a ship at the start of a campaign, so that you can let your players customize their ship to how they want it (including with engines) without going millions of gold in debt. :)


cartmanbeck wrote:
Don't forget that the ships come with a built-in point buy. So if you have your party start off with a simple Corvette, they have 9 points of point buy to add things like engines (a Phase Box costs 4 points, Raid Boosters cost 2, etc.) I assumed that these points could be freely spent on such a ship at the start of a campaign, so that you can let your players customize their ship to how they want it (including with engines) without going millions of gold in debt. :)

That's what I thought at first, but the Template Packages seem to contradict this and treat the point buy as a maximum limit rather than a free buy-in.

Ah well- ship-to-ship combat was never going to be a priority anyway, so we'll probably just play fast and loose with the monetary rules. It'll keep them from selling their ship for loot and a few scrolls of Interplanetary Teleport anyway.


Just bought it.

Slowly reading. This leans too heavily to tech for me so far- feels more like dragonstar at first blush. But we will see.


Cadvin wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:
Don't forget that the ships come with a built-in point buy. So if you have your party start off with a simple Corvette, they have 9 points of point buy to add things like engines (a Phase Box costs 4 points, Raid Boosters cost 2, etc.) I assumed that these points could be freely spent on such a ship at the start of a campaign, so that you can let your players customize their ship to how they want it (including with engines) without going millions of gold in debt. :)

That's what I thought at first, but the Template Packages seem to contradict this and treat the point buy as a maximum limit rather than a free buy-in.

Ah well- ship-to-ship combat was never going to be a priority anyway, so we'll probably just play fast and loose with the monetary rules. It'll keep them from selling their ship for loot and a few scrolls of Interplanetary Teleport anyway.

Hello, and thank you for your question!

So, when you purchase a hull, it comes with an available point buy. Let's say you purchase a freighter. That means that you get 19 points to spend on whatever you want to put on that hull. You want a fast engine? You're going to pay more than you would for a lesser engine. You want lots of weapons? You're going to have fewer points for that fast engine, or other systems you want to add in. This is all fairly standard.

When it comes to template packages, you could drop 10 of your 19 points into a basic rogue vessel, and then spend the additional 9 points on other things. Maybe, instead, you wish to apply the vagabond template, spending 18 of your 19 points, leaving you 1 left. Perhaps you'd rather spend on the protective escort vessel template. Unfortunately, as you only have 19 points to spend, you cannot purchase that package since it costs 24 points, but you could apply it to a cruiser hull if you so desired.

The available point buy you get with your hull is the maximum number of points that you can spend on that hull, and they're all free. Everything else you put on that hull comes out of that available point buy until you reach the maximum.

Does this explain how it works better?


Bodhizen wrote:

Hello, and thank you for your question!

So, when you purchase a hull, it comes with an available point buy. Let's say you purchase a freighter. That means that you get 19 points to spend on whatever you want to put on that hull. You want a fast engine? You're going to pay more than you would for a lesser engine. You want lots of weapons? You're going to have fewer points for that fast engine, or other systems you want to add in. This is all fairly standard.

When it comes to template packages, you could drop 10 of your 19 points into a basic rogue vessel, and then spend the additional 9 points on other things. Maybe, instead, you wish to apply the vagabond template, spending 18 of your 19 points, leaving you 1 left. Perhaps you'd rather spend on the protective escort vessel template. Unfortunately, as you only have 19 points to spend, you cannot purchase that package since it costs 24 points, but you could apply it to a cruiser hull if you so desired.

The available point buy you get with your hull is the maximum number of points that you can spend on that hull, and they're all free....

I think so. Just to make sure: from a GP cost perspective, you only need to worry about the hull, and the GP price of the additional components is mostly for GMs to create alternative systems or for worldbuilding?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Cadvin wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:

Hello, and thank you for your question!

So, when you purchase a hull, it comes with an available point buy. Let's say you purchase a freighter. That means that you get 19 points to spend on whatever you want to put on that hull. You want a fast engine? You're going to pay more than you would for a lesser engine. You want lots of weapons? You're going to have fewer points for that fast engine, or other systems you want to add in. This is all fairly standard.

When it comes to template packages, you could drop 10 of your 19 points into a basic rogue vessel, and then spend the additional 9 points on other things. Maybe, instead, you wish to apply the vagabond template, spending 18 of your 19 points, leaving you 1 left. Perhaps you'd rather spend on the protective escort vessel template. Unfortunately, as you only have 19 points to spend, you cannot purchase that package since it costs 24 points, but you could apply it to a cruiser hull if you so desired.

The available point buy you get with your hull is the maximum number of points that you can spend on that hull, and they're all free....

I think so. Just to make sure: from a GP cost perspective, you only need to worry about the hull, and the GP price of the additional components is mostly for GMs to create alternative systems or for worldbuilding?

That and also for later replacing/repairing/upgrading. If you have the same ship for an entire campaign, at some point you might need a new engine... :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
cartmanbeck wrote:
That and also for later replacing/repairing/upgrading. If you have the same ship for an entire campaign, at some point you might need a new engine... :)

True. In a lot of cases this'll be more expensive than just buying a new ship, which seemed weird at first but when I think about my own car it becomes all too real.


Cadvin wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:

Hello, and thank you for your question!

So, when you purchase a hull, it comes with an available point buy. Let's say you purchase a freighter. That means that you get 19 points to spend on whatever you want to put on that hull. You want a fast engine? You're going to pay more than you would for a lesser engine. You want lots of weapons? You're going to have fewer points for that fast engine, or other systems you want to add in. This is all fairly standard.

When it comes to template packages, you could drop 10 of your 19 points into a basic rogue vessel, and then spend the additional 9 points on other things. Maybe, instead, you wish to apply the vagabond template, spending 18 of your 19 points, leaving you 1 left. Perhaps you'd rather spend on the protective escort vessel template. Unfortunately, as you only have 19 points to spend, you cannot purchase that package since it costs 24 points, but you could apply it to a cruiser hull if you so desired.

The available point buy you get with your hull is the maximum number of points that you can spend on that hull, and they're all free....

I think so. Just to make sure: from a GP cost perspective, you only need to worry about the hull, and the GP price of the additional components is mostly for GMs to create alternative systems or for worldbuilding?

From a gold piece perspective...

When you purchase a hull, you get X number of points (for free) to purchase additional systems (engines, weapons, tactical components, etc...). The gp price of additional components is to create alternative systems, or for selling off a component on your vessel for some quick gold, or for scavenging a part off a derelict vessel for gold, or for worldbuilding, or for buying a better engine and selling the old one... There's a lot that you can do with it!

I found the point buy system to be simpler (like building eidolons), but we wanted to provide viable alternatives for people who don't like that system.

Best wishes!


So, does everyone just get the Technologist feat for free?


Bodhizen wrote:

From a gold piece perspective...

When you purchase a hull, you get X number of points (for free) to purchase additional systems (engines, weapons, tactical components, etc...). The gp price of additional components is to create alternative systems, or for selling off a component on your vessel for some quick gold, or for scavenging a part off a derelict vessel for gold, or for worldbuilding, or for buying a better engine and selling the old one... There's a lot that you can do with it!

I found the point buy system to be simpler (like building eidolons), but we wanted to provide viable alternatives for people who don't like that system....

Great, thank you very much for the clarification!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Andre Roy wrote:

Well look like someone jumped into the Starjammer fun early on. Production Platform 3 has introduced The Prometheus Protocols and small supplement for genetically modifed human (I haven't bought/read it yet, so no clue if any good).

Yes, we did! And, in fact, we are now up to three titles that work well in the Starjammer universe - two covering different approaches to genetically-engineered humans and a bestiary covering giant mutated lizards! While these are written with an eye toward our own post-apocalyptic setting that we are developing, we wanted to make them available to the Starjammer public, as well. You can check out our releases here on Paizo, too!

http://paizo.com/companies/productionPlatform3/discuss

(I do like to think they are at least functionally solid works!)


Thank you for the info. I somehow missed the lizard one.

I got the first two, and I like them both...maybe a slight preference for thee Medved Trial. But both will make a great addition to a scifi game


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Glad to hear you're liking them! Depending on where you shop, the radzillas volume went live somewhere from Saturday night to Tuesday morning, so it would have been easy to miss. We're going to try to be a bit more consistent in when we release and announce products.

Speaking of announcing products, we're lining up some more titles covering a range of subjects, from a playable selkie race for the more fantasy-minded to a "vehicle bestiary" along the lines of "Fast Eddie's Easy Speeders" for use with Starjammer.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm a bit concerned about the point buy system. Let's say you buy a skiff for 96k. You get 2 pointbuy to buy upgrades and decide to buy an alchemical roarengine, which costs 2 point buy (exactly what you have).
You then proceed to scrap your vessel and sell your engine for the standard price of 1/2 market price, which gives you 800k. You've basically just earned 700k by doing absolutely nothing.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Temennigru wrote:

I'm a bit concerned about the point buy system. Let's say you buy a skiff for 96k. You get 2 pointbuy to buy upgrades and decide to buy an alchemical roarengine, which costs 2 point buy (exactly what you have).

You then proceed to scrap your vessel and sell your engine for the standard price of 1/2 market price, which gives you 800k. You've basically just earned 700k by doing absolutely nothing.

I think that is something that GMs are going to have to reign in, and speak to their players beforehand about. If your players are going to take the gold values literally like that and try to game the system, then you should make them earn their first ship instead of just giving it to them, by making them adventure for a while on a single planet and have no means of transportation. Or you could have them stow away on other peoples' ships for a while, doing what they need to do either earn a crap-ton of money, or steal a ship. Or put them on a traveling space station for their first several levels. Lots of options!


cartmanbeck wrote:
Temennigru wrote:

I'm a bit concerned about the point buy system. Let's say you buy a skiff for 96k. You get 2 pointbuy to buy upgrades and decide to buy an alchemical roarengine, which costs 2 point buy (exactly what you have).

You then proceed to scrap your vessel and sell your engine for the standard price of 1/2 market price, which gives you 800k. You've basically just earned 700k by doing absolutely nothing.
I think that is something that GMs are going to have to reign in, and speak to their players beforehand about. If your players are going to take the gold values literally like that and try to game the system, then you should make them earn their first ship instead of just giving it to them, by making them adventure for a while on a single planet and have no means of transportation. Or you could have them stow away on other peoples' ships for a while, doing what they need to do either earn a crap-ton of money, or steal a ship. Or put them on a traveling space station for their first several levels. Lots of options!

That's like adding a spell that gives you 2 spell slots and telling me that GMs should reign in to not let players abuse it. The system is broken from fluff to mechanics.

The components should cost LESS than the ships. Not more. Firstly because it makes no sense for you to buy a $10,000 car and get a free $1,000,000 plane. Secondly because it is virtually impossible for a PC to ever buy an upgrade for his ship. Thirdly because the individual components of something should make up 1/3 to 1/2 of the total cost, as per the craft rules.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/craft-wondrous-item-item- creation-final/

These rules are consolidated and balanced, and should have been used as a base for the ship component rules.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Temennigru wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:
Temennigru wrote:

I'm a bit concerned about the point buy system. Let's say you buy a skiff for 96k. You get 2 pointbuy to buy upgrades and decide to buy an alchemical roarengine, which costs 2 point buy (exactly what you have).

You then proceed to scrap your vessel and sell your engine for the standard price of 1/2 market price, which gives you 800k. You've basically just earned 700k by doing absolutely nothing.
I think that is something that GMs are going to have to reign in, and speak to their players beforehand about. If your players are going to take the gold values literally like that and try to game the system, then you should make them earn their first ship instead of just giving it to them, by making them adventure for a while on a single planet and have no means of transportation. Or you could have them stow away on other peoples' ships for a while, doing what they need to do either earn a crap-ton of money, or steal a ship. Or put them on a traveling space station for their first several levels. Lots of options!

That's like adding a spell that gives you 2 spell slots and telling me that GMs should reign in to not let players abuse it. The system is broken from fluff to mechanics.

The components should cost LESS than the ships. Not more. Firstly because it makes no sense for you to buy a $10,000 car and get a free $1,000,000 plane. Secondly because it is virtually impossible for a PC to ever buy an upgrade for his ship. Thirdly because the individual components of something should make up 1/3 to 1/2 of the total cost, as per the craft rules.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/craft-wondrous-item-item- creation-final/

These rules are consolidated and balanced, and should have been used as a base for the ship component rules.

Good evening!

I'm going to try to clear this up for you. When you buy a skiff, it costs you 96,000 gp, has free customization 7 points (somehow, it was assigned 2, and that was wrong, but it got fixed in an update), and you get to choose what components it has installed in it. It's still a 96,000 gp vehicle. You don't get to sell off the alchemical roarengine (engines were supposed to be artifacts, given their power, but that got altered in development) separately and make a profit. It's part of that 96,000 gp hull discount-package deal that you bought from Uncle Hakir's Used Starcraft and Donut Emporium.

If you scavenge an alchemical roarengine off of a derelict vessel, you can get 800,000 gp off of it to upgrade your skiff, or to buy another hull if you wish. Go nuts.

Pimping your ride is going to cost a lot more than buying a pre-made vessel, just like customizing your car can cost a lot more than the original car itself. We could have gone with the individual components totaling 1/3 to 1/2 of the total cost for a vessel, which would have been astronomically prohibitive, and not completely consistent with Craft rules anyway (as the 1/3 to 1/2 is raw materials, not component parts). You want to craft a skiff, go ahead. You've got a hull for the half the price that you could have bought a complete vessel from a dealer of vessels for. They deal in bulk, and you don't, which is reflective of real life. You still have to craft your individual parts.

I understand your concerns. However, you don't buy a $10,000 car and get a free $1,000,000 plane. You buy a $10,000 car and get a $10,000 car (complete with engine, tires, brakes, transmission, exhaust system, battery, windshield, windows, electronics, etc...), or you could build your own car frame for $5,000 over the course of the next year and build your own engine for more money, and make your own tires, brakes, transmission, exhaust system, battery, windshield and windows, electronics, and so on for yet more money, and so on, all totaling far more than it would have cost you to buy that $10,000 car. Or, y'know, you could buy your own frame, then buy an engine, then buy tires, and brakes and all the rest and still pay more than that $10,000 car. But, y'know, you feel accomplished for having built the car yourself.

Best wishes!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bodhizen wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:
Temennigru wrote:

I'm a bit concerned about the point buy system. Let's say you buy a skiff for 96k. You get 2 pointbuy to buy upgrades and decide to buy an alchemical roarengine, which costs 2 point buy (exactly what you have).

You then proceed to scrap your vessel and sell your engine for the standard price of 1/2 market price, which gives you 800k. You've basically just earned 700k by doing absolutely nothing.
I think that is something that GMs are going to have to reign in, and speak to their players beforehand about. If your players are going to take the gold values literally like that and try to game the system, then you should make them earn their first ship instead of just giving it to them, by making them adventure for a while on a single planet and have no means of transportation. Or you could have them stow away on other peoples' ships for a while, doing what they need to do either earn a crap-ton of money, or steal a ship. Or put them on a traveling space station for their first several levels. Lots of options!

That's like adding a spell that gives you 2 spell slots and telling me that GMs should reign in to not let players abuse it. The system is broken from fluff to mechanics.

The components should cost LESS than the ships. Not more. Firstly because it makes no sense for you to buy a $10,000 car and get a free $1,000,000 plane. Secondly because it is virtually impossible for a PC to ever buy an upgrade for his ship. Thirdly because the individual components of something should make up 1/3 to 1/2 of the total cost, as per the craft rules.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/craft-wondrous-item-item- creation-final/

These rules are consolidated and balanced, and should have been used as a base for the ship component rules.

Good evening!

I'm going to try to clear this up for you. When you buy a skiff, it costs you 96,000 gp, has free customization 7...

I understand what you're saying, but the price difference is still way too much for it to make sense. Going back to the car analogy, a $10,000 car won't have an engine that costs $500,000 dollars by itself.

Like I said, you probably should have based the system in the component-to-completed-product ratio, and not necessarily used it as it is. You could have very well added a non-bulk cost to the component cost, and that would be understandable, but the individual components of starships should in no way cost more than the starship itself, or the in-game economy would collapse with people going crazy and buying all the starships in the market to sell the precious things inside.

As for modifying your spacecraft, I would understand that the super ultra mega power pimp-o-matic engine could cost more than your original craft, but replacing your original engine with the same one should not.

In real world terms, "Repowering a typical car or truck with a rebuilt – remanufactured engine costs between $2,250 to $4,000 or about 10% to 20% of the cost of a new vehicle. Additional savings in annual insurance costs can also be significant compared to purchasing a new vehicle."

I've given you 2 in-game problems (one of them is solvable by banning players from selling ship components, the other not so much, as millions of gp is not something achievable at less than epic levels), but here is a third:
It is more cost-effective to buy a ship, strip it of its engine and put it in your ship than actually buying the engine.

I've actually been having to consider completely ignoring the prices you set and making a "ship crafting system" where you can find and purchase individual parts (such as a plasma stabilizer, gravity field generator, etc.) to build ship components instead of buying them.

And all my players all agree with me when I say that the starjammer economy is broken.
I'm hoping that you will consider my opinion on this matter.

Thank you for your time.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Temennigru wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but the price difference is still way too much for it to make sense. Going back to the car analogy, a $10,000 car won't have an engine that costs $500,000 dollars by itself.

Like I said, you probably should have based the system in the component-to-completed-product ratio, and not necessarily used it as it is. You could have very well added a non-bulk cost to the component cost, and that would be understandable, but the individual components of starships should in no way cost more than the starship itself, or the in-game economy would collapse with people going crazy and buying all the starships in the market to sell the precious things inside.

As for modifying your spacecraft, I would understand that the super ultra mega power pimp-o-matic engine could cost more than your original craft, but replacing your original engine with the same one should not.

In real world terms, "Repowering a typical car or truck with a rebuilt – remanufactured engine costs between $2,250 to $4,000 or about 10% to 20% of the cost of a new vehicle. Additional savings in annual insurance costs can also be significant compared to purchasing a new vehicle."

I've given you 2 in-game problems (one of them is solvable by banning players from selling ship components, the other not so much, as millions of gp is not something achievable at less than epic levels), but here is a third:
It is more cost-effective to buy a ship, strip it of its engine and put it in your ship than actually buying the engine.

I've actually been having to consider completely ignoring the prices you set and making a "ship crafting system" where you can find and purchase individual parts (such as a plasma stabilizer, gravity field generator, etc.) to build ship components instead of buying them.

And all my players all agree with me when I say that the starjammer economy is broken.
I'm hoping that you will consider my opinion on this matter.

Thank you for your time.

I first want to thank you for your time, and I want to let you know that I am considering your opinion quite deeply.

One of the design elements that lent a touch of "Spelljammer" to the system was the idea that engines were artifacts. They weren't able to be crafted, and they didn't carry a price-tag. You got them with your hull, and I get that's just one example of the economy here that you're having difficulty with, not the principal crux of your argument.

I'm going to run with that car analogy a bit further. So, you buy your $10,000 car (like you got that 96,000 gp skiff). Putting an alchemical roarengine in the car isn't like grabbing a rebuilt engine for $4,000. It's like throwing a AMS Alpha GT-R 4.4 Big-Bore Stroker Crate Engine (which retails for about $49,000) and throwing that sucker in. All of the engines are like that.

So, in-game problem #1:

You buy a vessel, part it out, make a profit.

Simply put, that's not how it goes. You got customization points for free, but that's all inclusive to the base price. If you want to part things in, you pay retail, not wholesale. Retail is a lot more expensive. That engine in your skiff is a part of your skiff now. You want to retrofit your skiff with a phase box later on? Pay for the phase box, stick it on your skiff, and it's still a skiff.

In-game problem #2:

I'm afraid I didn't catch this one.

Regardless, you've given the team something to consider and to talk about. I know how I'd be solving this, but I don't get to make unilateral decisions. I just get the fun task of explaining how this all came about. Please rest assured that we will be talking about this.

Keep at it. You've got good points.

Best wishes!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Temennigru wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but the price difference is still way too much for it to make sense. Going back to the car analogy, a $10,000 car won't have an engine that costs $500,000 dollars by itself.

Like I said, you probably should have based the system in the component-to-completed-product ratio, and not necessarily used it as it is. You could have very well added a non-bulk cost to the component cost, and that would be understandable, but the individual components of starships should in no way cost more than the starship itself, or the in-game economy would collapse with people going crazy and buying all the starships in the market to sell the precious things inside.

As for modifying your spacecraft, I would understand that the super ultra mega power pimp-o-matic engine could cost more than your original craft, but replacing your original engine with the same one should not.

In real world terms, "Repowering a typical car or truck with a rebuilt – remanufactured engine costs between $2,250 to $4,000 or about 10% to 20% of the cost of a new vehicle. Additional savings in annual insurance costs can also be significant compared to purchasing a new vehicle."

I've given you 2 in-game problems (one of them is solvable by banning players from selling ship components, the other not so much, as millions of gp is not something achievable at less than epic levels), but here is a third:
It is more cost-effective to buy a ship, strip it of its engine and put it in your ship than actually buying the engine.

I've actually been having to consider completely ignoring the prices you set and making a "ship crafting system" where you can find and purchase individual parts (such as a plasma stabilizer, gravity field generator, etc.) to build ship components instead of buying them.

And all my players all agree with me when I say that the starjammer economy is broken.
I'm hoping that you will consider my opinion on this matter.

Thank you for your time.

In discussing with the team, we've reconfigured the prices for hulls to make more sense to you. They're quite a bit more expensive now, but now you shouldn't be able to part out your vessel for more than you bought it for. If you're wondering why we got the numbers that we got, we averaged out basically all vessel components and figured out how much the hull should cost based upon the materials that went into constructing it (which I had on a spreadsheet anyway) plus the component average for its point buy.

We also returned engines back to artifact status, though they remain artifacts that you can repair. We don't want to leave you stranded and left to die if your engine is somehow disabled.

I hope that you find this solution much more elegant and suited to your table. The best way to upgrade a vessel is still probably going to be to either haul ridiculous amounts of highly valuable cargo, or to scavenge defeated or derelict vessels and sell off their parts. But, that hasn't changed from before.

Thank you very much for your input. Best wishes!


Bodhizen wrote:

In-game problem #2:

I'm afraid I didn't catch this one.

Problem #2 was requiring an amount of wealth to upgrade the vehicle way beyond what WBL allowed till epic levels.

Bodhizen wrote:

In discussing with the team, we've reconfigured the prices for hulls to make more sense to you. They're quite a bit more expensive now, but now you shouldn't be able to part out your vessel for more than you bought it for. If you're wondering why we got the numbers that we got, we averaged out basically all vessel components and figured out how much the hull should cost based upon the materials that went into constructing it (which I had on a spreadsheet anyway) plus the component average for its point buy.

We also returned engines back to artifact status, though they remain artifacts that you can repair. We don't want to leave you stranded and left to die if your engine is somehow disabled.

I hope that you find this solution much more elegant and suited to your table. The best way to upgrade a vessel is still probably going to be to either haul ridiculous amounts of highly valuable cargo, or to scavenge defeated or derelict vessels and sell off their parts. But, that hasn't changed from before.

Thank you very much for your input. Best wishes!

Thank you for the consideration. I think artifact status (specifically not having a price) solves most of the problems I mentioned, but in my opinion there should be some sort of system that allows players to upgrade their vessel off-game for quicker campaigns.

The 2 solutions that I have thought of so far would be adding point buy to WBL (instead of the group gold) or having a component crafting system with off-game support.

Again, thank you very much for the consideration.


Temennigru wrote:

Thank you for the consideration. I think artifact status (specifically not having a price) solves most of the problems I mentioned, but in my opinion there should be some sort of system that allows players to upgrade their vessel off-game for quicker campaigns.

The 2 solutions that I have thought of so far would be adding point buy to WBL (instead of the group gold) or having a component crafting system with off-game support.

Again, thank you very much for the consideration.

So, I do have a little problem with adding point buy to Wealth by Level. Consider the fact that when you average out vessel components, it falls somewhere in the neighborhood of 600,000 gp. (It's a little over, but I rounded.) If you give a point every level, you've given out 12,000,000 gp. That's kind of ridiculous for wealth by level, even if you can only use it for vessels, and you can still only get pretty small vessels (with lots of goodies inside). If you gave out 5 points, you can maybe get to a superheavy vessel in the home stretch toward 20th level, but you're talking a 60,000,000 gp add-on to wealth by level... that can still be sold off, and therefore, it kind of negates the economic fix we just worked out.

The component crafting system with off-game support is something that I do want to hear more about, just to be sure I understand what you're suggesting.

Although, if what you really want is an off-game way to upgrade your vessel for quicker campaigns, you can just house rule it and give your players extra stuff. The King of Planet X just happens to throw a fully loaded frigate at your players for services rendered to Planet X, or something like that.

Best wishes!


Bodhizen wrote:


So, I do have a little problem with adding point buy to Wealth by Level. Consider the fact that when you average out vessel components, it falls somewhere in the neighborhood of 600,000 gp. (It's a little over, but I rounded.) If you give a point every level, you've given out 12,000,000 gp. That's kind of ridiculous for wealth by level, even if you can only use it for vessels, and you can still only get pretty small vessels (with lots of goodies inside). If you gave out 5 points, you can maybe get to a superheavy vessel in the home stretch toward 20th level, but you're talking a 60,000,000 gp add-on to wealth by level... that can still be sold off, and therefore, it kind of negates the economic fix we just worked out.

Makes sense. I guess my main concern right now is not having enough cheap options right now to upgrade the vessel, so their ship won't evolve with the characters as they progress and the players won't have that much love for it. But with your fix this shouldn't be that much of a problem, since I can reward them with components without having to worry about WBL now.

Bodhizen wrote:


The component crafting system with off-game support is something that I do want to hear more about, just to be sure I understand what you're suggesting.

My initial idea is to add 3 kinds of parts that can be used to either do small upgrades to the ship or craft new vessel components.

1- Parts that are easily purchased in the market.
2- Parts that must be crafted with special materials, feats, etc.
3- Parts that must be found or salvaged (these would be artifacts)

As an example, let's use a simple warp drive:

Warp Drive
Artifact
Components:
1x Warp Coil (Artifact)
3x Plasma Injectors (Purchasable)
3x Anti-Matter generator (Craftable. Has its own required materials list, such as mithril, platinum, etc.)
Requires Craft Technological Item to craft + 5 days and X gp.

Parts will be able to be replaced with better ones, by using enchantment rules, since they are simple enough to understand, and that will give my players cheap options for upgrades:

Plasma Injectors:
For each +1 enchantment, reduces fuel consumption of the part by 2%

I will also make a salvage rule:
Salvaging a part requires a Knowledge Engineering test to succeed.
Salvaging an artifact has a 10% chance of success and destroys the other parts in the process.

This is what I've come up with so far. I based it on the crafting system that you find in most RPG videogames.
Most of my campaign uses new rules as it is based on Warhammer 40k and I am having to rewrite lots of rules already to fit into that universe (such as weapons, factions, vehicles, etc.). Starjammer has the core rules that I am using.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Temennigru wrote:

My initial idea is to add 3 kinds of parts that can be used to either do small upgrades to the ship or craft new vessel components.

1- Parts that are easily purchased in the market.
2- Parts that must be crafted with special materials, feats, etc.
3- Parts that must be found or salvaged (these would be artifacts)

As an example, let's use a simple warp drive:

Warp Drive
Artifact
Components:
1x Warp Coil (Artifact)
3x Plasma Injectors (Purchasable)
3x Anti-Matter generator (Craftable. Has its own required materials list, such as mithril, platinum, etc.)
Requires Craft Technological Item to craft + 5 days and X gp.

Parts will be able to be replaced with better ones, by using enchantment rules, since they are simple enough to understand, and that will give my players cheap options for upgrades:

Plasma Injectors:
For each +1 enchantment, reduces fuel consumption of the part by 2%

I will also make a salvage rule:
Salvaging a part requires a Knowledge Engineering test to succeed.
Salvaging an artifact has a 10% chance of success and destroys the other parts in the process.

This is what I've come up with so far. I based it on the crafting system that you find in most RPG videogames.
Most of my campaign uses new rules as it is based on Warhammer 40k and I am having to rewrite lots of rules already to fit into that universe (such as weapons, factions, vehicles, etc.). Starjammer has the core rules that I am using.

Yeah, it felt very RPG-videogame to me. It creates unnecessary granularity to a crafting system that doesn't operate that way in Pathfinder.

Temennigru wrote:
Makes sense. I guess my main concern right now is not having enough cheap options right now to upgrade the vessel, so their ship won't evolve with the characters as they progress and the players won't have that much love for it. But with your fix this shouldn't be that much of a problem, since I can reward them with components without having to worry about WBL now.

Wealth by Level really is a system intended to balance out player characters. The vessel isn't really intended to evolve with characters as if it was a character itself. It's a possession that can be lost, destroyed, stolen, etc... Characters can upgrade the vessel, but it does require effort. A vessel is a significantly larger and more complex piece of equipment than a +5 flaming bastard sword of awesome power, and has a further-reaching impact upon a story. It's the vehicle for exploration and adventure. It's an important element of the Starjammer story. It's not something as simple as an eidolon that evolves with your character level.


Bodhizen wrote:


Yeah, it felt very RPG-videogame to me. It creates unnecessary granularity to a crafting system that doesn't operate that way in Pathfinder.

I'm planning on implementing it anyway in my campaign, as it incentives scavenging. I'll tell you how it goes.

My players also have a few questions for you:

1- How does crew work? It seems to be explained in the book, but from what we got from it, it doesn't work as it should.
Example 1: A fighter spacecraft has a single space for the pilot and a single crewman (the pilot). If you add an engine, the crew requirements increase by one, and you no longer have enough space in your craft to fit your crew.
Example 2: If you purchase a drone and add a weapon to it, the crew requirements go up and it is no longer autonomous.

2- How does scaling work? Does the same engine that power a skiff power a full-sized battleship and give it the same speed?

3- Do ships have a pre-defined map or are their spaces fully modular and customizable?

4- If an air generator occupies space and a fighter does not have space for it, how would the pilot breathe?

PS: Have you seen the vehicle system from ships of skyborne? It's very similar to yours and it would be nice if both systems were interchangeable.


Temennigru wrote:

I'm planning on implementing it anyway in my campaign, as it incentives scavenging. I'll tell you how it goes.

My players also have a few questions for you:

1- How does crew work? It seems to be explained in the book, but from what we got from it, it doesn't work as it should.
Example 1: A fighter spacecraft has a single space for the pilot and a single crewman (the pilot). If you add an engine, the crew requirements increase by one, and you no longer have enough space in your craft to fit your crew.
Example 2: If you purchase a drone and add a weapon to it, the crew requirements go up and it is no longer autonomous.

This certainly does warrant clarification.

So the intention was for a hull to require a minimum number of crew to operate the vessel at full capacity. The engine requires a certain number of people to operate it, which is not added to the minimum crew, but can increase the total number of crew required to operate the vessel. You'll notice that, aside from the gravity whip, all engines only need one person to operate the engine. So, the intention is for your raider (using example 1) to have a minimum crew (1) to do everything the raider needs done, and you throw on an essence dome (which requires 1 person to operate it), and the pilot can operate the essence dome and crew the rest of the vessel altogether. Definitely have to make that clear.

In example 2, if you purchase a drone and add a weapon to it, you're being foolish. Drones are unmanned craft used as exploratory probes or for relaying messages to a predetermined location. You can't program it to respond to combat without some sort of AI.

Temennigru wrote:
2- How does scaling work? Does the same engine that power a skiff power a full-sized battleship and give it the same speed?

You might not like the answer.

It's magic, not physics. We could have gone with a system that was more sci-fi, but we wanted sci-fa (science-fantasy). The engine provides enough oomph to do the job, regardless of what size vessel it's propelling through the void.

Temennigru wrote:


3- Do ships have a pre-defined map or are their spaces fully modular and customizable?

Their spaces are fully modular. We purposefully didn't want to say, "Here's your Gunstar! This is what it looks like. Oh, you wanted the pilot on the aft end and the gunner on the fore end? Tough noogies."

Temennigru wrote:
4- If an air generator occupies space and a fighter does not have space for it, how would the pilot breathe?

The pilot must have some sort of air-generating magic, such as a reactionary torc, or wearing a suit of star marine armor. Sorry, Scoob. You've got to wear an oxygen tank.

Temennigru wrote:
PS: Have you seen the vehicle system from ships of skyborne? It's very similar to yours and it would be nice if both systems were interchangeable.

No, I haven't.


Bodhizen wrote:

So the intention was for...

Thanks for the clarification

Bodhizen wrote:

No, I haven't.

They have a more physics based system, but their accessories could very well fit starships, such as adding threads to a ship or an arm to a drone.

There is one more question I forgot to ask:

5- If the players ever decide to make a ship of their own, how would the point buy work? The book mentions hull costs, but it doesn't mention point buy.


Temennigru wrote:
5- If the players ever decide to make a ship of their own, how would the point buy work? The book mentions hull costs, but it doesn't mention point buy.

So, you purchase the hull. The hull comes with X points. You spend those X points on component systems, like your engine, your weapons, your tactical systems, etc... You can only spend up to that maximum.

It's pretty straightforward.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bodhizen wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
5- If the players ever decide to make a ship of their own, how would the point buy work? The book mentions hull costs, but it doesn't mention point buy.

So, you purchase the hull. The hull comes with X points. You spend those X points on component systems, like your engine, your weapons, your tactical systems, etc... You can only spend up to that maximum.

It's pretty straightforward.

I mean if you make the hull from scratch, like chosing the material, ship size, etc.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It took like 5 years to build a space shuttle and you want to create a bagillion more complicated version with an adventuring party?


Temennigru wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
5- If the players ever decide to make a ship of their own, how would the point buy work? The book mentions hull costs, but it doesn't mention point buy.

So, you purchase the hull. The hull comes with X points. You spend those X points on component systems, like your engine, your weapons, your tactical systems, etc... You can only spend up to that maximum.

It's pretty straightforward.

I mean if you make the hull from scratch, like chosing the material, ship size, etc.

I could give you the point buy, but then I'd have to kill you.


Michael Monn wrote:
It took like 5 years to build a space shuttle and you want to create a bagillion more complicated version with an adventuring party?

We are all computer scientists. We can handle it.

201 to 242 of 242 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Third-Party Pathfinder RPG Products / Product Discussion / [d20pfsrd.com] Starjammer: Pathfinder in Space! All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Product Discussion

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.