I want to play this team, now. And I also want to play the first book of RofRL with just wizards (any archetype, no multiclassing) just to see what happens. I suspect they will not only succeed, but that they'll thrive.See Anzyr, my group doesn't play that way. We play with a mix of casters and martials who fight together.
Try beating Runelords with just casters and they'll all die in the first 4 levels. A campaign is organic, and everyone is trying to get their characters to survive the whole thing, not just endgame. The problem comes when you drop a caster in at high level who hasn't had to survive and is given carte blanche on what they can build with. The same with any character really.
Try giving a new character in the group access to only what has been dropped in the game and items purchasable at times the other players were allowed to and see what happens.
See when people say "casters" at low level are prone to death I get super confused. Druids/Lunar Oracles/Sylvan Sorcerers/Summoners all get very sturdy pets that if they die can be replaced easily. Not to mention Clerics/Druids/Shamans all have d8 HD which puts them very close in HP to the d10 martial classes. A Wizard is definitely at it's weakest at low level, but even then it's not significantly far behind any class in terms of HP, or to hit simply do to how the number work.
I would happily argue that Druid/Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer/Shaman/Master Summoner is one of the strongest possible teams.
i can see it now, all of them with scythes for their coup de graces...
I'll take the Rogue-replacement Wizard.
EDIT: are we using 15 or 20 point buy? People tend to use 20 point buy for the sake of the martials, but that does also make it easier on Wizards.
What's the rogue replacement wizard? (I suspect in missing a joke, here). And my home games have always been 25 point buy to accommodate the MAD classes, but in this scenario I think dropping it down to 20 would be reasonable.
I feel like the arcanist would be a better choice... quick study is an amazing boon for dealing with unnforseen problems while scouting. .. and maybe black blade for funzies...
Beast Bond Witch i found works REALLY GOOD as a scout. . You dont care if your ffamiliar dies (yay magic jar at will now!) AND with the hex Beast Eyes or whatevs you can constantly bounce from animal to animal to "scout" an area commpletely undetected...
Oh and slumber hex is amazing for eliminating guards silently :p
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I think you should play it as it was designed for.
4 players, 15 point array. That's how all the AP's are designed.
If you decide to stray outside this design intent, then hopefully you'll take the necessary time and steps to increase all the encounters appropriately.
It will give you a good feel for the AP if you play as design intended.
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I want to play this team, now. And I also want to play the first book of RofRL with just wizards (any archetype, no multiclassing) just to see what happens. I suspect they will not only succeed, but that they'll thrive.See Anzyr, my group doesn't play that way. We play with a mix of casters and martials who fight together.
Try beating Runelords with just casters and they'll all die in the first 4 levels. A campaign is organic, and everyone is trying to get their characters to survive the whole thing, not just endgame. The problem comes when you drop a caster in at high level who hasn't had to survive and is given carte blanche on what they can build with. The same with any character really.
Try giving a new character in the group access to only what has been dropped in the game and items purchasable at times the other players were allowed to and see what happens.
See when people say "casters" at low level are prone to death I get super confused. Druids/Lunar Oracles/Sylvan Sorcerers/Summoners all get very sturdy pets that if they die can be replaced easily. Not to mention Clerics/Druids/Shamans all have d8 HD which puts them very close in HP to the d10 martial classes. A Wizard is definitely at it's weakest at low level, but even then it's not significantly far behind any class in terms of HP, or to hit simply do to how the number work.
I would happily argue that Druid/Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer/Shaman/Master Summoner is one of the strongest possible teams.
I'll take the Rogue-replacement Wizard.
EDIT: are we using 15 or 20 point buy? People tend to use 20 point buy for the sake of the martials, but that does also make it easier on Wizards.
The Rogue Replacement here is the Sage Razmiran Sorcerer, since they can drop an Aram Zey's Focus with no need to worry about prep. Druid is covering the front line along with the AC and Master Summoner Summons. Shaman is just pretending to be a Cleric until Level 2 when it's time to pretend to be a Witch. Big synergy points between Shaman and Razmiran Priest Sorcerers as Shamans can convert any Sorcerer spell into a Divine version scroll at the same spell level which the Razmiran Priest can then cast cost free out of a 1 level higher spell slot (ie, Permanency).
Despite this warrior having twice as much EXP as the caster, the caster has a massive advantage both as a player and as a boss because only one person in this two-by-two comparison can stop time, turn invisible, teleport nearly two thousand miles in six seconds, create small planes of existence, transform into a dragon, cause natural disasters with a wave of his hand, speak the true name of a Planetar Angel and have it jump to his aid, or just pop directly into Heaven to ask to borrow a cup of sugar because the grocery store is just too much bother...
And the level 17 wizard can do all of this in the same day.
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Also, if there's one class I do feel needs to be addressed, it is the summoner.
It's probably why so many of its Archetypes are banned from PFS and why it got a reboot in Unchained.
But this is your experiment so go for it.
Why? The summoner is just another caster, which you claim is weak at low levels.
...Are you changing your tune?
Hey Kyrt? I'm not Dabbler.
We just use the same avatar. :)
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why don't you go ahead and create a team in a new thread Kyrt. Stat 'em up in an easy fashion and then I'll throw encounters from the AP at them to see how they go.
It's not playing so much as just thought experiment. I don't have to worry about committing hours in a day as I can make it just one or two posts a day.
For the sake of this one at least, indulge me in the intent of the game. 15 point array (only cos I don't want to redo every encounter to match player increase in power)
This could be fun.
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In all fairness the summoner isn't a FULL Caster [though his list sort of blends between Partial and Full] and sort of fits in a middleground between his claim and his claim that Martials are necessary at low levels.
True, but he didn't say full caster. He just said caster. And casters are typically referred to as both 6th level and 9th level casters. Which is was Anzyr said: 6-9 casters.
Now a 4th level caster could be argued as a marital rather than a caster.
I'd suggest the PBP forums.
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Also, if there's one class I do feel needs to be addressed, it is the summoner.
It's probably why so many of its Archetypes are banned from PFS and why it got a reboot in Unchained.
But this is your experiment so go for it.
Why? The summoner is just another caster, which you claim is weak at low levels.
...Are you changing your tune?
Hahahahhahahahahaah no, im not.
One class that I feel has two archetypes that are very poorly though out does not make my position changed at all. (Master summoner and Synthesist took every balancing weakness of the summoner and threw them out.)
I currently play a standard summoner at level 16 in our home game and he rocks. But ive been very thankful the martials have been around too. Summoner is a support caster with a tank to play with as well. You put other martials with him and he is in his zone.
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Not true actually. The anniversary edition and every AP since Jade Regent have been designed assuming a 20 point buy.I think you should play it as it was designed for.
4 players, 15 point array. That's how all the AP's are designed.
Source please. Every post I've read by James Jacobs about this point has always been 15 point.
Design Manager
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Not true actually. The anniversary edition and every AP since Jade Regent have been designed assuming a 20 point buy.I think you should play it as it was designed for.
4 players, 15 point array. That's how all the AP's are designed.
Source please. Every post I've read by James Jacobs about this point has always been 15 point.
It comes from my last conversation on the subject with Mark Seifter (just say the words "15 point buy" around him at PaizoCon sometime, then prepare for an in depth explanation of how 15 point buys should never have been considered the standard because it's based on a math error made back in 3.0 D&D), but I recall JJ talking about the switch a couple years ago in the ask JJ thread. Give me a bit to do some forum searching, see if I can find it.
***Edit***
Here's JJ saying that when he does a point buy, it's 20 points. Looking for more specific references, but I think the fact that the creative director for Pathfinder uses a 20 point buy speaks volumes in and of itself.
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Not to derail the thread but even when we thought the game was designed for 15 point buy we often used 20 just because it's so difficult to build characters that depend on two or more main stats with 15.
It's interesting that this debate has been raging for so many years and keeps coming up with regularity that I don't see what, short of a system redesign in PF2.0 (an issue which itself gets plenty of forum space) can be done to address it to everyone's satisfaction.
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Another instance of JJ saying he uses the 20 point buy.
Also of some note, all the iconics in the NPC Codex use a 20 point buy, and that's also the point buy used for Paizo's Pathfinder Society organized play environment.
Here we go. I see I misremembered what he said a bit. The assumption in an AP is technically a 15 point buy, but JJ (and all the other Paizo peeps I've ever talked to) typically use 20 point buys.
i want to have a link to this 4 wizards thing so i can watch.
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That last link where he explains why he prefers 20 point is very valid. But still outside the intent. He also says 20 points makes a half CR change.
So four players at 20 points puts it 2 CR higher than intended. James also puts limits on what he allows players to build. He limits the number of stats that can be dropped, but not by how much if I recall properly.
For this purpose, let's run with how it was designed. I don't have time or inclination to change every encounter.
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I followed that link but couldn't find anything about 20 point buy. Maybe it was another page?
They are certainly designed for arrays rather than min max point buys though. Dropping some stats to super max others is outside what the design of the APs is at least.
Really? All those links take me straight to posts where he talks about using the 20 point buy (although I'm seeing that 1 out of every 3 clicks on the first link takes me to a thread where he's talking about Asmodeus, which is pretty weird....)
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I did say that I always use more than 20 point buy without changing anything Wrath.
Bookrat uses 25pb without changing anything, but we agreed that 20 would be more appropriate.
That being said if you confirm a final time that you refuse to budge on the 15 point buy, I am willing to go along with it.
EDIT: ah, you're leaving for now. I'll build the characters and open the discussion thread in the recruitment area, then adjust them to the point buy we settle on.
For what it's worth, Wizards are generally least affected by that 5 point buy differential. It favors martials far more.
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Back quickly to address Kyrts questions.
20 point and 25 point make things much easier at low levels, where the stats have more impact than the class progression. This is where I'm suggesting all caster parties fail an AP.
Let's just use 15 point array please. That is how the game is designed around and means I don't have to make adjustments. The more adjustments I am being force to make as a DM the greater the chance people will cry foul.
You can always run a second one with the same characters at 20 points if someone else wants to run the encounters as well.
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A Wood Elementalist Wizard could be pretty "ninja-ish", and comes with free stat enhancements that can help stretch your point buy. 13, 14, 15 before stat adjustments becomes 14 STR, 14 DEX, 17 INT. You could conceivably get that 18 and maybe even a little CON selling down CHA.
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If you're saying martials need to be magical in Pathfinder, I agree. If you're saying magical martials are mundane martials, well, that's just not true.
What is mundane is heavily dependant on the setting. For example I can say that humanoids can train at what we would call supernatural levels in the real world, but in the setting is justified as an extraordinary potential and thus within the natural physics of that setting instead of tapping into magic.
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One reason why martials need better things can be seen elsewhere on the boards:
Something I just noticed
Sad face for witches/shamans. Healing Hex goes back to being borderline worthless.In Hex Vulnerability, in the first sentence of
the description, add “harmful” before “hexes”.
Spending one feat to be able to heal every party member once per day first as CLW, later as CMW is something lots of martials would LOVE. But for the witch it's borderline worthless.
It comes from my last conversation on the subject with Mark Seifter (just say the words "15 point buy" around him at PaizoCon sometime, then prepare for an in depth explanation of how 15 point buys should never have been considered the standard because it's based on a math error made back in 3.0 D&D)
Are there any forum references about Mark's explanation of 15 point buy? I'd be really interested to read through that.
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Kyrt, I went ahead and created a thread for us.
I'll create a discussion thread tomorrow and link it in as well.
Anyone whos following on, feel free to post in discussion thread but lets keep the PbP part for Kyrt's team of casters please/ Stops cluttering things up.