I thought they just dealt damage to the surface until they get to a new surface. So with an adamantium shovel a 20 str guy turns into Bugs Bunny. But then again I'm probably a s+%@ty GM.
Well RAW a shovel digs 2cubic feet a minute but there's object breaking rules so I go by that and let them tunnel by determining how many inches of a substance they want to destroy
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I'd say you're a good DM if you actually allows martials to be relevant. But I equally maintain that, in a system as rules-heavy as Pathfinder, it shouldn't be left up to that.
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To me, this whole problem is like how in Avengers you had Captain America, Blackwidow and Hawkeye do stuff while Thor and Ironman actually saved the day. Sure, nobody was USELESS, but lets just say Blackwidow had her GM being really generous with "lucky" rolls and whatnot. Second Avengers movie exposed how awkward the team is again, where some characters are just background noise.
If you want to give players powerful abilities so they can explore them in multitude ways, make sure that everyone gets equally powerful abilities, if different flavors.
Really, Pathfinder is not wrong for having both Fighters and Wizards in the same ruleset. Pathfinder is wrong because it keeps the absurd scaling that is inherent to the classic 20 levels. Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards is a sin, not a classic trope to be embraced. Get rid of it.
So about 2 ft a round. A lvl 20 barbarian can probably hold their breath for about 25 rounds, so he can tunnel 50 feet. Not good unless not the whole thing is solid.
To me, this whole problem is like how in Avengers you had Captain America, Blackwidow and Hawkeye do stuff while Thor and Ironman actually saved the day. Sure, nobody was USELESS, but lets just say Blackwidow had her GM being really generous with "lucky" rolls and whatnot. Second Avengers movie exposed how awkward the team is again, where some characters are just background noise.
If you want to give players powerful abilities so they can explore them in multitude ways, make sure that everyone gets equally powerful abilities, if different flavors.
Really, Pathfinder is not wrong for having both Fighters and Wizards in the same ruleset. Pathfinder is wrong because it keeps the absurd scaling that is inherent to the classic 20 levels. Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards is a sin, not a classic trope to be embraced. Get rid of it. [/QUOT]
Characters like that get by with narrative fiat. So what if martials could use hero points exclusively?
But I think it highlighted the differing expectations people have about the game.
I learned a long time ago that, as a DM, I really suck at it when the players insist on being railroaded and/or handed solutions. I just can't force myself to do it, or at least not at all convincingly.
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Characters like that get by with narrative fiat. So what if martials could use hero points exclusively?
In my house rules, I actually give the martials X/day hero points right in the class progression tables.
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But I think it highlighted the differing expectations people have about the game.I learned a long time ago that, as a DM, I really suck at it when the players insist on being railroaded and/or handed solutions. I just can't force myself to do it, or at least not at all convincingly.
I mostly did it because the wizard was hemming and hawing about 'do I cast teleport?'. But the caster level may not have been high enough to bring everyone anyway.
I mostly did it because the wizard was hemming and hawing about 'do I cast teleport?'. But the caster level may not have been high enough to bring everyone anyway.
Yeah, I think you handled it exactly right. I'm just saying that I probably wouldn't have, in your place.
Characters like that get by with narrative fiat. So what if martials could use hero points exclusively?
No, not really. Hero points do not provide narrative power.
Smalltime mages go with mundane warriors. Superheroes go with majestic wizards.Sometimes it is alright if wizards are stuck to a very specific area of wizardry. Like the ability to only make and levitate boxes. Magical box combat.
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This is a game that is supposed to have all the players take a center stage and being effective without the plot contriving itself to shift the spotlight. It's not about a main character and his sidekicks (it might be but the system should allow everyone to be main by default), and players should not be obligated to play second fiddle.
So it's bad form if the Wizard gets to be Dr. Strange while the Fighter the most it gets is Daredevil or Taskmaster and not Hulk, Colossus or Hercules because "muh realism". All of this while the bestiary throws against you the likes of Thanos, Ultron and Loki
Depends on what deific mythology you're comparing to. I think the bulk of the Greek pantheon as described in their mythology is put to shame by the Wizard and Cleric once those high level spells come online, as are many Native American "deities" like Coyote and Raven. Deities as described in the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance are replaced or overthrown by Wizards with frightening regularity, and generally the only places in game you see deities who aren't at risk of deific defenestration by some enterprising mage are the ones in settings that assume them to be extremely remote and incapable of being represented by a stat block, such as in Golarion or Eberron.
I was comparing them to Pathfinder deities. Once a wizard finds out how to ignite all the stars in the sky, like Desna did, I'll credit the "full arcane spellcasting = godlike power" argument with some validity. Hell, gimme a way for them to do ONE such celestial ignition event and I'll start listening.
Depends on what deific mythology you're comparing to. I think the bulk of the Greek pantheon as described in their mythology is put to shame by the Wizard and Cleric once those high level spells come online, as are many Native American "deities" like Coyote and Raven. Deities as described in the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance are replaced or overthrown by Wizards with frightening regularity, and generally the only places in game you see deities who aren't at risk of deific defenestration by some enterprising mage are the ones in settings that assume them to be extremely remote and incapable of being represented by a stat block, such as in Golarion or Eberron.I was comparing them to Pathfinder deities. Once a wizard finds out how to ignite all the stars in the sky, like Desna did, I'll credit the "full arcane spellcasting = godlike power" argument with some validity. Hell, gimme a way for them to do ONE such celestial ignition event and I'll start listening.
Give me a rule that says Desna can actually do that and I'll agree with you. Otherwise it's just stories people made up.
Give me a rule that says Desna can actually do that and I'll agree with you. Otherwise it's just stories people made up.Depends on what deific mythology you're comparing to. I think the bulk of the Greek pantheon as described in their mythology is put to shame by the Wizard and Cleric once those high level spells come online, as are many Native American "deities" like Coyote and Raven. Deities as described in the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance are replaced or overthrown by Wizards with frightening regularity, and generally the only places in game you see deities who aren't at risk of deific defenestration by some enterprising mage are the ones in settings that assume them to be extremely remote and incapable of being represented by a stat block, such as in Golarion or Eberron.I was comparing them to Pathfinder deities. Once a wizard finds out how to ignite all the stars in the sky, like Desna did, I'll credit the "full arcane spellcasting = godlike power" argument with some validity. Hell, gimme a way for them to do ONE such celestial ignition event and I'll start listening.
Why would she not be able to? What reason is there to think otherwise when official Pathfinder content says as much? Are you going to ask for proof that Pharasma judges all the souls of all creatures that die in the multi-verse? Do we require proof in the form of a stat block that Cayden Cailien actually DID pass the test of the Starstone and it's not just a very convincing doppleganger? Is the lack of a video recording going to make you doubt that it's really Rovagug inside Golarion and not just some artificial super-monster factory?
I believe Anzyr is basing his assessment of the capabilities of Pathfinder characters on the rules of Pathfinder. There are concrete rules for what a wizard of a given level can or can't do in Pathfinder. There are no rules anywhere for what Desna can or can't do in Pathfinder (that I know of).
Some people insist that any time the rules don't explicitly say you can't do something, you can do it. By that standard, Desna is literally omnipotent (since there are no rules for what she can't do).
Others insist that any time the rules don't explicitly say you can do something, then you can't. By that standard, Desna can't do anything at all, (since there are no rules for what she can do).
Anzyr appears to adhere to the first standard. As far as he's concerned, Desna can only do what the rules explicitly permit (i.e., nothing), and a mortal wizard can only do what the rules explicitly permit (i.e., using their class features, skills, feats, and racial abilities).Other people think that characters should sometimes be allowed to do things not allowed by the rules. You appear to be one of those people, and so you are doomed to disagree with Anzyr on rules-related questions.
This is correct. Mainly because in a discussion about the rules of the game I feel it's best to rely on what the rules say.
This is correct. Mainly because in a discussion about the rules of the game I feel it's best to rely on what the rules say.I believe Anzyr is basing his assessment of the capabilities of Pathfinder characters on the rules of Pathfinder. There are concrete rules for what a wizard of a given level can or can't do in Pathfinder. There are no rules anywhere for what Desna can or can't do in Pathfinder (that I know of).
Some people insist that any time the rules don't explicitly say you can't do something, you can do it. By that standard, Desna is literally omnipotent (since there are no rules for what she can't do).
Others insist that any time the rules don't explicitly say you can do something, then you can't. By that standard, Desna can't do anything at all, (since there are no rules for what she can do).
Anzyr appears to adhere to the first standard. As far as he's concerned, Desna can only do what the rules explicitly permit (i.e., nothing), and a mortal wizard can only do what the rules explicitly permit (i.e., using their class features, skills, feats, and racial abilities).Other people think that characters should sometimes be allowed to do things not allowed by the rules. You appear to be one of those people, and so you are doomed to disagree with Anzyr on rules-related questions.
The moment someone seriously states a level 20 wizard's capabilities are equal to or greater than that of a god of the Pathfinder-verse is when it stops being a rules discussion. Rules are like equations, formula for determining what is possible and what isn't. We don't know the true extent of a god's capabilities (it's at least miracle level), so that's a big fat bunch of question marks you're subbing in for a solid figure in this 'rules' discussion. When you intentionally set one side of the equation to '???' and claim the other side with the actual figures on it has to be greater, without even offering any reasoning to support your conclusion no less, you've violated both the word and the spirit of the game's rules.
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Well, all a god needs in Pathfinder is 3 mythic tiers.
The moment someone seriously states a level 20 wizard's capabilities are equal to or greater than that of a god of the Pathfinder-verse is when it stops being a rules discussion. Rules are like equations, formula for determining what is possible and what isn't. We don't know the true extent of a god's capabilities (it's at least miracle level), so that's a big fat bunch of question marks you're subbing in for a solid figure in this 'rules' discussion. When you intentionally set one side of the equation to '???' and claim the other side with the actual figures on it has to be greater, without even offering any reasoning to support your conclusion no less, you've violated both the word and the spirit of the game's rules.
We do know their capabilities under the rules. They have none as they lack a stat block. Therefore, it's pretty easy to say a Wizard is greater then them. Since the Wizard has a stat block and therefore capabilities. There is no point to talking about anything else besides these rules, because nothing you or I say has any bearing without rules to support it. Anything discussion that doesn't rely on the rules this is essentially a "I shot you." "No, you didn't." scenario and I don't do those.
We do know their capabilities under the rules. They have none as they lack a stat block. Therefore, it's pretty easy to say a Wizard is greater then them. Since the Wizard has a stat block and therefore capabilities. There is no point to talking about anything else besides these rules, because nothing you or I say has any bearing without rules to support it. Anything discussion that doesn't rely on the rules this is essentially a "I shot you." "No, you didn't." scenario and I don't do those.
Then explain miracle.
Well, all a god needs in Pathfinder is 3 mythic tiers.
Actually, full gods have more domains and subdomains than mythic tiers/ranks normally can allow through Divine Source. That system caps you at four of each while deities have five and six, respectively. Furthermore, Divine Source has language in it specifically stating that you act like a deity, not that you are one.
We do know their capabilities under the rules. They have none as they lack a stat block. Therefore, it's pretty easy to say a Wizard is greater then them. Since the Wizard has a stat block and therefore capabilities. There is no point to talking about anything else besides these rules, because nothing you or I say has any bearing without rules to support it. Anything discussion that doesn't rely on the rules this is essentially a "I shot you." "No, you didn't." scenario and I don't do those.Then explain miracle.
Simple. The spell causes the effect. Because it does as far as the rules are concerned.
Simple. The spell causes the effect. Because it does as far as the rules are concerned.We do know their capabilities under the rules. They have none as they lack a stat block. Therefore, it's pretty easy to say a Wizard is greater then them. Since the Wizard has a stat block and therefore capabilities. There is no point to talking about anything else besides these rules, because nothing you or I say has any bearing without rules to support it. Anything discussion that doesn't rely on the rules this is essentially a "I shot you." "No, you didn't." scenario and I don't do those.Then explain miracle.
Incorrect, read it again. You request a miracle via the spell. The deity then directly intercedes, using you as a proxy/conduit. That is, if it wants to; you can't make it do something that is against the deity's interest. That interest is defined in an area outside what you seem to be defining as 'the rules', by the way.
Incorrect, read it again. You request a miracle via the spell. The deity then directly intercedes, using you as a proxy/conduit. That is, if it wants to; you can't make it do something that is against the deity's interest. That interest is defined in an area outside what you seem to be defining as 'the rules', by the way.Simple. The spell causes the effect. Because it does as far as the rules are concerned.We do know their capabilities under the rules. They have none as they lack a stat block. Therefore, it's pretty easy to say a Wizard is greater then them. Since the Wizard has a stat block and therefore capabilities. There is no point to talking about anything else besides these rules, because nothing you or I say has any bearing without rules to support it. Anything discussion that doesn't rely on the rules this is essentially a "I shot you." "No, you didn't." scenario and I don't do those.Then explain miracle.
The spell itself provides them that ability. Therefore, the spell causes the effect.
How that is related to the topic? :p
How that is related to the topic? :p
Turns out after over a thousand posts, the topic wanders and this one has been beaten to death long ago.
The spell itself provides them that ability. Therefore, the spell causes the effect.Incorrect, read it again. You request a miracle via the spell. The deity then directly intercedes, using you as a proxy/conduit. That is, if it wants to; you can't make it do something that is against the deity's interest. That interest is defined in an area outside what you seem to be defining as 'the rules', by the way.Simple. The spell causes the effect. Because it does as far as the rules are concerned.We do know their capabilities under the rules. They have none as they lack a stat block. Therefore, it's pretty easy to say a Wizard is greater then them. Since the Wizard has a stat block and therefore capabilities. There is no point to talking about anything else besides these rules, because nothing you or I say has any bearing without rules to support it. Anything discussion that doesn't rely on the rules this is essentially a "I shot you." "No, you didn't." scenario and I don't do those.Then explain miracle.
Except that the spell description makes it pretty clear that that's not the case. It's requesting that they intercede, not allowing or forcing them to. These details matter.
How that is related to the topic? :p
If we're discussing what martials need as far as 'nice things' to have the same level of utility and power as casters, doesn't saying "Full casters have the power of gods!" skew the terms of the debate in a rather unreasonable way?
Except that the spell description makes it pretty clear that that's not the case. It's requesting that they intercede, not allowing or forcing them to. These details matter.
Right the spell itself lets them grant those requests. Gods themselves cannot. It's right there in black and white.
If we're discussing what martials need as far as 'nice things' to have the same level of utility and power as casters, doesn't saying "Full casters have the power of gods!" skew the terms of the debate in a rather unreasonable way?
Most gods are incapable of raising the dead, creating new planes of existence, transforming into whatever they want, turning objects into other objects, exiting reality, calling forth creatures from outside reality to serve them, etc.
Except that the spell description makes it pretty clear that that's not the case. It's requesting that they intercede, not allowing or forcing them to. These details matter.Right the spell itself lets them grant those requests. Gods themselves cannot. It's right there in black and white.
No, wrong. If you're going to be so focused on strict RAW and such, you need to abide by the wording of the spell itself and everything it means. The spell says nothing about granting the ability to fulfill the request to the god. By your logic, it would have to for miracle to do anything in the first place. Otherwise, the god has no power and there's nothing to request they do! Which is idiotic, since they're the ones that granted the spell itself AND are doing all the work. If miracle had wording in it to the effect of, "You harness the power of your god to perform this type of effect", you would definitely be right here. It doesn't, though, and if fact states almost the exact opposite. I think you're a little too focused on the whole wizard power trip thing and aren't fully mulling over the ramifications of your logic.
No, wrong. If you're going to be so focused on strict RAW and such, you need to abide by the wording of the spell itself and everything it means. The spell says nothing about granting the ability to fulfill the request to the god. By your logic, it would have to for miracle to do anything in the first place. Otherwise, the god has no power and there's nothing to request they do! Which is idiotic, since they're the ones that granted the spell itself AND are doing all the work. If miracle had wording in it to the effect of, "You harness the power of your god to perform this type of effect", you would definitely be right here. It doesn't, though, and if fact states almost the exact opposite. I think you're a little too focused on the whole wizard power trip thing and aren't fully mulling over the ramifications of your logic.Except that the spell description makes it pretty clear that that's not the case. It's requesting that they intercede, not allowing or forcing them to. These details matter.Right the spell itself lets them grant those requests. Gods themselves cannot. It's right there in black and white.
This can be resolved easily. Show me a rule that says the Deities can grant Miracles sans Miracle spell. Otherwise please concede that the spell itself provides them that ability under the rules.
This can be resolved easily. Show me a rule that says the Deities can grant Miracles sans Miracle spell. Otherwise please concede that the spell itself provides them that ability under the rules.No, wrong. If you're going to be so focused on strict RAW and such, you need to abide by the wording of the spell itself and everything it means. The spell says nothing about granting the ability to fulfill the request to the god. By your logic, it would have to for miracle to do anything in the first place. Otherwise, the god has no power and there's nothing to request they do! Which is idiotic, since they're the ones that granted the spell itself AND are doing all the work. If miracle had wording in it to the effect of, "You harness the power of your god to perform this type of effect", you would definitely be right here. It doesn't, though, and if fact states almost the exact opposite. I think you're a little too focused on the whole wizard power trip thing and aren't fully mulling over the ramifications of your logic.Except that the spell description makes it pretty clear that that's not the case. It's requesting that they intercede, not allowing or forcing them to. These details matter.Right the spell itself lets them grant those requests. Gods themselves cannot. It's right there in black and white.
Oh my god, this is PRICELESS! Thank you sir, I needed that laugh.
But seriously, no. I will not find for you a rule that says ball lightning is impossible outside of a spell or magical effect either. Or one that says humans in Pathfinder possess genitalia that allow them to mate and produce viable offspring. Or one that says two plus two does, in fact, still equal four. Those are inane requests and you know it. No, I've demonstrated my point with miracle, now it's your turn. Time to use that system mastery, spanky.
This can be resolved easily. Show me a rule that says the Deities can grant Miracles sans Miracle spell. Otherwise please concede that the spell itself provides them that ability under the rules.You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.If a deity or power doesn't have the power to intercede, then Miracle does nothing. Q.E.D.
While I admire your gift of brevity, sir, that explanation is not nearly long-winded enough, needlessly complicated, or pointlessly hair-splitting for these boards.
Considering that the post was originally intended to ask why martial's need better things. I find it funny that a debate as to weather or not the wizard's universe warping power godlike power is in fact on par with that of a true magical tea party deity is an excellent indicator that martial characters do in fact need better things.
I mean when was the last time someone debated weather or not a 20th level martial was the equivalent to or a reasonable facsimile of a god of war (RAW)?
This can be resolved easily. Show me a rule that says the Deities can grant Miracles sans Miracle spell. Otherwise please concede that the spell itself provides them that ability under the rules.No, wrong. If you're going to be so focused on strict RAW and such, you need to abide by the wording of the spell itself and everything it means. The spell says nothing about granting the ability to fulfill the request to the god. By your logic, it would have to for miracle to do anything in the first place. Otherwise, the god has no power and there's nothing to request they do! Which is idiotic, since they're the ones that granted the spell itself AND are doing all the work. If miracle had wording in it to the effect of, "You harness the power of your god to perform this type of effect", you would definitely be right here. It doesn't, though, and if fact states almost the exact opposite. I think you're a little too focused on the whole wizard power trip thing and aren't fully mulling over the ramifications of your logic.Except that the spell description makes it pretty clear that that's not the case. It's requesting that they intercede, not allowing or forcing them to. These details matter.Right the spell itself lets them grant those requests. Gods themselves cannot. It's right there in black and white.Oh my god, this is PRICELESS! Thank you sir, I needed that laugh.
But seriously, no. I will not find for you a rule that says ball lightning is impossible outside of a spell or magical effect either. Or one that says humans in Pathfinder possess genitalia that allow them to mate and produce viable offspring. Or one that says two plus two does, in fact, still equal four. Those are inane requests and you know it. No, I've demonstrated my point with miracle, now it's your turn. Time to use that system...
I've shown Miracle grants deities the ability to grant miracles. That is why casters are so powerful, they literally grant Deities the ability to grant Miracles. If you want to disprove this you need to show those Deities have other means of doing this under the rules. The ball is presently in your court.
I've shown Miracle grants deities the ability to grant miracles.No, you've shown that the spell miracle requests miracles from the deities. Nothing in that spell says a caster must cast the spell in order for deities to perform miracles.
Dang! Ninja'd!
I mean when was the last time someone debated weather or not a 20th level martial was the equivalent to or a reasonable facsimile of a god of war (RAW)?
You mean like Kratos? Never, because it's easy to see they're not. They can only begin to approach that level with mythic tiers, magical artifacts, house rules, and plot intervention from certain lesser deities. Hell, the system doesn't even let you climb on the back of a lesser giant, like a troll or something, and ride them around like an angry "Honey I blew up the kid" monster. At best, you can maybe end your turn in their square with the full Monkey Style feat chain, but that's got oodles of other requirements tacked on and doesn't let you automatically move with the target.
If you read the rules text and ignore the flavor text, miracle works exactly the way Anzyr says it does...
Part of his beef is that deities don't follow the same laws of the multiverse as, well, mythic-characters-who-are-essentially-deities. Which is either an oversight or an inconsistency.
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Why does all this even matter? The acts of gods are thinly veiled GM fiat that have practically no rules basis beyond rule 0. Debating what the RAW powers of gods are is just a stupid conversation to be having.
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There's a difference between being a god and being god-like. But that's a different thread.
I mean when was the last time someone debated weather or not a 20th level martial was the equivalent to or a reasonable facsimile of a god of war (RAW)?You mean like Kratos? Never, because it's easy to see they're not. They can only begin to approach that level with mythic tiers, magical artifacts, house rules, and plot intervention from certain lesser deities. Hell, the system doesn't even let you climb on the back of a lesser giant, like a troll or something, and ride them around like an angry "Honey I blew up the kid" monster. At best, you can maybe end your turn in their square with the full Monkey Style feat chain, but that's got oodles of other requirements tacked on and doesn't let you automatically move with the target.
Not so much Kratos, I was thinking more Pathifnder cannon (keeping in line with the whole Desna argument). Like Gorum or hell maybe even the Archdevil Moloch
Also to be fair one can climb a Kaiju with a DC 30 climb check.
I'm not saying high level martial characters do go toe to toe with Demon lords, Godzilla, Cthulhu, and, The assassin of the gods. But all those things have stats in the system and are presented as possible challenges.