Thanks for the popcorn andreww....
Um, but aren't you saying on the one hand in the thread title that there is no imbalance, and then later saying:
Do they need to be equal though?
The answer is...
Well no.
Huh.
And yes, 4e made martial and casters balanced, and verily, it wath boring.
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I don't even know where to begin with this mess of ill logic... So I'm just going to sit back and watch the sparks fly...
I understand the sentiment. It comes down to GM style (GM style = preference + interpretation + rigidity + etc/other/who knows/take your pick), and in the martial vs. magic argument certain assumptions are made about GM style. Magic classes are considered superior because at higher level their abilities are defined in paragraph form, while martials are still defined by damage/HP. Those abilities in paragraph form defy the laws of nature, while martials just hit things harder and more frequently.
So, it depends on your GM.
However, magic classes end up with more flexibility in and out of combat, while martials just chop stuff in half. I'm generalizing, but I think you understand that.
The sentiment in the end of your post is great. Teamwork = great.
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I don't even know where to begin with this mess of ill logic... So I'm just going to sit back and watch the sparks fly...It's a mildly impressive grognadly rant but the railing against WoW costs it some points. I score it 4/10, could do better, needs more references to real roleplayers.
Perfect summery, though you are more generous with your score than I would be.
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Note, NPC enemies exist. Would you be fine as a group of PC's 15th level martials against a group of NPC 14th level full casters? No, probably not, not unless the GM is going easy on you.
Balance between classes isn't required because of videogames. It's required because classes don't exist in a vacuum.
52-102 damage? In a single full attack!?!
Sure, these are impressive numbers you're throwing around but can a 15th level fighter really put out this much damage every round? I think you need to show your math here.
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52-102 damage? In a single full attack!?!
Sure, these are impressive numbers but can a 15th level fighter really put out this much damage every round? I think you need to show your math here.
Your Sarcasm-style is strong, but my Ignore-the-flame-bait-style will prevail!
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Largely depends on the items that both sides are equipped with and the set up. It is very possible for the Martials, in that situation, to tear the casters apart. Feats, initiative, equipment, distance... Lots of factors...
I mean, for example, an 84 HP Wizard who suffers a full round sneak attack from a Rogue, which just means that the rogue went first, if 2 of the 3 attacks hit, can eat two 1d4+8d6 damage (using Rogue Unchained and daggers, or more if he's a bow user) hits that result in a combined total of 18-104 damage and die outright.
A dedicated Fighter who is an archer with a composite bow, a +2 strength, that grants him/her the effects of Gravity bow (easily doable for a level 15) while having weapon specialization can do up to 10d6+42 damage in a single full attack... 52-102 damage can end a Caster in a single action.
And those are without even tricking out the combatants that much or assuming an abundance of magical items. So a 2 on 2 battle can end with all the Casters dead before they even get a chance to cast a single spell. (I said *can* not *will*) so it really depends on a whole load of variables.
It does depend on variables, but it's severely stacked against the martials. Army of outsider minions, simulacrums, and charmed monsters and battlefield control spells, vs. the martial's damage.
That isn't hyperbole, that is what my players would expect from me from a group of mage villians. Since I have done truename discovery, simulacrums, planar bindings, item crafting, etc. as a player.
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Fighters really do need something like the 5e self-heal, or the 4e marking, or combat abilities that let them fight like the main character from every Tales of game.
......I don't actually believe the last one; I'm just responding so something other than that thrice-damned Korean online casino BS shows up when I hop here from the SRD.
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You overlook some factors from earlier editions that make a difference. Firstly, rolled HP, usually without a CON bonus. Wizards in earlier editions had extremely low HP. Secondly, any attack would disrupt spell casting and cause the spell to be lost. That made casting high risk. Thirdly, learning spells was far more difficult. You couldn't expect to go buy a scroll of any spell you wanted, you didn't automatically gain spells from leveling, and learning a spell required a check that could only be made once ever per spell. Fourth, experience tracks were class specific, meaning that fighter, and rogue grew in power more rapidly. Finally, Fighter saves in particular grew in tandem with wizard power such that a high level fighter was likely to save against the spells of a high level wizard.
All of these things are different in Pathfinder (and indeed all of 3.x).
Yes the game is based on the idea of teamwork, but that doesn't mean it's any fun to always be Aquaman waiting for Superman to finish dealing with the problems. To say nothing of being Aquaman and facing down Darkseid (powerful Wizard Villain).
No one in these arguments win converts. Their discussion harms you none, so why care?
Does not compute?
OK, so let's assume that it doesn't matter if everything doesn't have to balance because it's, for the majority, a team based co-operative game. Riddle me this - why shouldn't it balance?
4th made it boring, sure, but it doesn't have to be boring. If all options are at least playable with effort then you will have more diverse characters, rather than 1/3 of monks being Zen Archers or a two level MoMS dip.
My main reason for wanting things to be balanced is I want to play the characters I want without being a burden on my team. Plus it gets kinda disheartening to watch the wizard simply melt the badguy into slag or summon something that can do my job as a martial waaaay better than I can.
So, sure, the martial doesn't have to be powerful if the wizard is powerful enough to make up for it. But that doesn't mean he'll be a fun character to play. And the goal is fun. Balance will mean the whole party contributes and enjoys the game.
And note, I am not trying to be rude here,
Then why are you telling this lie?
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World of Warcraft was actually what taught me to DISREGARD the endless whining about class balance; it never ended, there was a pro-crown and a con-crowd for every conceivable permutation, the shifts and changes made in the name of "class balance" from patch to patch were constant and meaningless and changed nothing (at least never for the better), NOBODY was EVER satisfied, and all it accomplished was creating another avenue by which to leech the fun out of the game and replace creative adventure-play with chartered accountancy (and anyone who didn't go along with the hivemind was a Bad Stupid Player and Not A Team Player who was Ruining Everyone's Fun(TM) and Had No Right to Criticize Others' Playstyle(TM) even though the reverse was of course not true and they had to suck it up!).
Your Sarcasm-style is strong, but my Ignore-the-flame-bait-style will prevail!52-102 damage? In a single full attack!?!
Sure, these are impressive numbers but can a 15th level fighter really put out this much damage every round? I think you need to show your math here.
^^
Well, if he's serious about using a ~50 DPR fighter as a balance point for level 15 he'll be happy to put in the effort to build the fighter, and might pick up a few things along the way. Assuming he does that I'm in turn happy to help him improve his archer fighter and outline the reasons why I disagree with the argument laid out in the OP.
Conversely if this really is a flame bait thread and OP has no interest in learning, I doubt he'll put in the effort to provide anything at all, which means I won't have to waste my time explaining my reasoning to someone who's not interested.
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This just has to be said.
I've been reading threads like, "Martials can't have nice things." and "How can martials have nice things?" and "Martials are getting their roles stolen by casters!"
I needed to make a separate thread to address this...
And note, I am not trying to be rude here, but this is one of those topics that makes my blood start to boil.
"The problem is in your mind."
I have to agree with this.
I suspect the mindset comes from playing very little post 13th level play, much less post 20th level play.
When saves+items+defensive magics make offensive spells (both save-or-suck and direct damage) only really effective on the mooks, often the only real way to deal damage to the BBEG and his high end allies is to wack him with a big piece of metal.
Save DCs to not advance at anywhere near the pace of Save Bonuses, and at some point making most saving throws becomes "don't roll a 1"
Do casters do amazing things? Yep.
Do they wipe the walls with the mooks? Yep.
But when it comes to finishing off bosses/leaders/bigbads, martials hold their own and then some.
...as long as they don't decide to make Sap their only weapon.
Considering the opening of 'There is no Imbalance Between Martials and Casters', this moves pretty quickly into 'The imbalance between martials and casters is not relevant, or is outweighed by their synergy.'
As an alternative option: I'm not so concerned with any supposed imbalance between martials and casters that I won't play a martial character. Though my RPG characters haven't always been martials, when I sit down to look at my options I am more likely to play a martial or partly martial character who can take a hit than anything else.
1:1, PvP-esque, Martial vs. Caster competitive balance isn't a factor for me - I don't think it's a factor for many people who've been talking about martial/caster balance. Co-operative balance, however, is relevant: I don't want to feel useless, and I wouldn't want my party to feel I'm useless. While I don't feel dissatisfied with the Paladin, or the Fighter, or the Ranger, or the Barbarian, I can understand people who get frustrated from getting to do the mopping-up damage dealing in fights that are essentially won by a well-chosen spell in the first round. I can understand wanting nice things for martials, or even wanting nerfs for casters.
This is not the 'Jedi-Killer Fallacy' so described, because that presumes that martial players entered the game to kill wizards, this is the people who don't want their Jedi friends to leave them behind. I don't think martials want nice things to kill wizards, rather they want nice things so they can defeat, and not merely damage, their campaign foes. Personally, I think the balance issue of martials having their role cut out from under them by casters, or feeling that this is the case, can be largely addressed by GMing and campaign design rather than tweaking classes, Mythic martials, or enforcing Limited Magic.
Though I do agree,
The sentiment in the end of your post is great. Teamwork = great.
I mean, for example, an 84 HP Wizard who suffers a full round sneak attack from a Rogue, which just means that the rogue went first, if 2 of the 3 attacks hit, can eat two 1d4+8d6 damage (using Rogue Unchained and daggers, or more if he's a bow user) hits that result in a combined total of 18-104 damage and die outright.
18-104 does an average of 61 damage. It's not enough to kill a 84 hp wizard (you only have maybe 10-15% chance of killing him, if those attacks actually hit her).
A dedicated Fighter who is an archer with a composite bow, a +2 strength, that grants him/her the effects of Gravity bow (easily doable for a level 15) while having weapon specialization can do up to 10d6+42 damage in a single full attack... 52-102 damage can end a Caster in a single action.
IF all those attacks hit.
And in average, you do 77 damage, so still not a good chance of killing that wizard (less than 30% chance IMO), even if all those attacks hit.
And believe me, a 15th level wizard may have way more than 84 hp (especially if it is a PC).
There is no imbalance because the classes are not in competition.
This is some good wordplay, but it misses the point. People complaining about imbalance are complaining because the two classes are not equally powerful.
Its like how in Soccer you never hear the Sweeper screaming to nerf the Goalie.
It's great that you don't care the two classes have a gap in terms of how powerful they are. You can play the game as is with no need to change anything. The copious threads demonstrate that some people dislike the power gap and so for them they aren't satisfied with the power gap.
What's the point of this thread?
Its just bothering me...
I've played every version of this game. Since the thin core books of the original D&D (when Elf was a class!) to AD&D to 2nd Ed, to 3rd, to 3.5, 4th, 5th, and now to Pathfinder...
Never have I seen this phenomena where people who are supposed to be on the same team are sniping at one another. It makes absolutely no sense.
Given the way you've been couching your posts I truly doubt you have a genuine wish to try to understand anyone's opinion but your own. As a veteran of the WotC boards this looks purely like edition warring. But on the rare chance you have a genuine desire to try to understand the problem people have with the power gap between classes, here's one way to try to look at it. I've been to games where a character with levels in the APG summoner completely obsoleted the entire table. It wasn't particularly enjoyable and no-one was able to contribute meaningfully to the game execpt for the summoner. Paizo recognised this was such a big problem we got Pathfinder Unchained with a new version of the summoner class. PFS then banned the APG summoner.
We've seen 1:1 balance. It was 4th, and it was terrible. Why would anyone be clamoring for that.
We've seen science fiction movies. It was Plan 9 From Outer Space, and it was terrible. Why would anyone be clamoring for science fiction movies?
Paizo has been trying to fix the imbalances present in 3.5e since the Core Rulebook. It's why they had a public playtest. It's why they issue errata. It's why we got new takes on the Barbarian, Monk and Rogue in Pathfinder Unchained. Those asking for the power gap to be closed between martials and casters aren't necessarily asking for 1:1 balance.* What they are asking for is the gap to be closed more than Paizo have proven able to thus far.
* Plenty of people have been involved in those threads. It's quite possible a few of them are asking for 4th ed style balance. But I'm confident in saying they're not the majority.
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52-102 damage? In a single full attack!?!
Sure, these are impressive numbers you're throwing around but can a 15th level fighter really put out this much damage every round? I think you need to show your math here.
Easily. I'm not even trying that hard to get that.
Okay so:
15th level Fighter gets 3 attacks:
15/10/5
Double Shot feat adds one extra attack, at full bonus, but all attacks take a -2.
So 13/13/8/3
A compound bow gives a strength bonus to damage, in this case we went with +2, at 5th, 9th, and 13th they get an additional +1 cumulative bonus to a weapon. In this case the bow. Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization add more.
Many Shot makes the first shot double damage as well.
Gravity Bow gives the bow's 1d8 an upgrade to 2d6.
So 4 shots:
4d6+18
2d6+9
2d6+9
2d6+910d6+45 damage
So a 15th level Fighter with a bow enchanted with a level 1 spell permanently (Very within the realm of possibility) can get between 55-105 damage every single turn.
That was the sound of the point flying straight over your head with a pinch of ridicule from Kudaku. 100 DPR is absurdly low for a 15th level fighter. Average DPR for a 15th level fighter is closer to 250.
But this illustrates the point beautifully! Your complete and total lack of system mastery is on full display. You have no idea what you are yapping your flapping gums about. You are in fact SO OVLIVIOUS to the pathfinder system that you didn't instantly recognize absurdly wrong numbers for your 15th level fighter (neither when you said them nor when they were tossed back at you.) You have no idea about what makes a good caster in pathfinder. You have no concept of what is actually allowed by the rules when players actually read the full spell descriptions.
That was the sound of the point flying straight over your head with a pinch of ridicule from Kudaku. 100 DPR is absurdly low for a 15th level fighter. Average DPR for a 15th level fighter is closer to 250.
But this illustrates the point beautifully! Your complete and total lack of system mastery is on full display. You have no idea what you are yapping your flapping gums about. You are in fact SO OVLIVIOUS to the pathfinder system that you didn't instantly recognize absurdly wrong numbers for your 15th level fighter (neither when you said them nor when they were tossed back at you.) You have no idea about what makes a good caster in pathfinder. You have no concept of what is actually allowed by the rules when players actually read the full spell descriptions.
Well, it could be a fighter NPC, which could explain the relatively low damage for the level.
Well, it could be a fighter NPC, which could explain the relatively low damage for the level.
That was the sound of the point flying straight over your head with a pinch of ridicule from Kudaku. 100 DPR is absurdly low for a 15th level fighter. Average DPR for a 15th level fighter is closer to 250.
But this illustrates the point beautifully! Your complete and total lack of system mastery is on full display. You have no idea what you are yapping your flapping gums about. You are in fact SO OVLIVIOUS to the pathfinder system that you didn't instantly recognize absurdly wrong numbers for your 15th level fighter (neither when you said them nor when they were tossed back at you.) You have no idea about what makes a good caster in pathfinder. You have no concept of what is actually allowed by the rules when players actually read the full spell descriptions.
The original point still holds. He thinks that 50 damage IS BETTER than what a wizard can crank out at 15th level? I could LITERALLY close my eyes and point at the list of 8th level spells and every single one of them would be more effective than dealing 50 damage.
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Not to mention Gravity Bow is a Ranger/sorcerer/wizard spell with a target of "you". Unless a Fighter spends the points in Use Magic Device which is imo a waste for lack of skill points. He is not getting the benefits of the spell. Were not unhappy with Fighters as a class because of lack of damage. We find the class boring. With casters who can do the same with spells.
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Really, there's no reason to be like that.
On top of that, it seems that Kudaku was asking a legitimate question.
I suspect (hope) that his point was that it was easy to deal decent damage with an even moderate martial character build.
That the damage that the martial character can do is repeatable as many times in the course of a day as he needs to.
That 8th level spell at 15th level is going to be cast say 3 times before being done for the day.
High level martial characters can deal out scary amounts of damage.
Casters can move the earth to make sure that the monster is there to suffer that damage.
Easily. I'm not even trying that hard to get that.52-102 damage? In a single full attack!?!
Sure, these are impressive numbers you're throwing around but can a 15th level fighter really put out this much damage every round? I think you need to show your math here.
Ah, I see. You seem to rely on 3rd party material (never heard of the Double shot feat) and homebrew of dubious quality, such as a bow of permanent Gravity Bow. My GM tends to play with the Pathfinder rules as written (RAW) so we can't use 3rd party, rules loopholes or homebrew material. Do you think you can pull the same or better damage numbers using only Pathfinder material?
Now now, no call for posts like that. I'm building up to a point here. ☺
Edit: apologies for spelling like a dyslexic halibut, out travelling at the moment so I'm posting from the 'smart' phone.
Really, there's no reason to be like that.
Hm, maybe. But this dude has been annoying me for a week. I finally failed a will save.
On top of that, it seems that Kudaku was asking a legitimate question.
Not a chance.
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A misnamed feat and a magic item perfectly within the level of power expected at the level it's being used do not an abuse make. You're making your own point look bad. OP's still wrong, but let's at least be right about why he's wrong.
I'm trying to establish a common base for further debate. While I don't actually think a gravity bow-bow is problematic, leaving out 3rd party materials, correctly naming feats* and not using homebrew items seems like reasonable assumptions when discussing if there really is a martial/caster disparity. ☺
Ah, I see. You seem to rely on 3rd party material (never heard of the Double shot feat)That's because he got the name wrong. He's referring to Rapid Shot.
and homebrew of dubious quality, such as a bow of permanent Gravity Bow.Tell me of the world where a bow than casts Gravity Bow on itself is dubious. Besides, there are plenty of magic items well within the reach of a 15th level character that are far more abusive.
A misnamed feat and a magic item perfectly within the level of power expected at the level it's being used do not an abuse make. You're making your own point look bad. OP's still wrong, but let's at least be right about why he's wrong.
My GM tends to play with the Pathfinder rules as written (RAW) so we can't use 3rd party, rules loopholes or homebrew material.
No, he's using subtlety to simultaneously demonstrate the OPs lack of system knowledge and set up a situation where Kudaku will describe abilities of a 15th level caster that are explicitly allowed (so, exist with a higher degree of credibility than the OPs own example) that completely put the fighter in question to shame.
Edit: ninja'd by the man himself.
The master summoner laughs at martials and the idea of "nneeding to dtress the casters."
The master summoner has summons that last for.hours, and Can spam his highest Summon Monster over 20 times a day without even touching his spell list..
Threaads like this are a strong argument for proving that sardine are way more intelligent that the average internet user. At least they only take the bait once in their whole lives.
52-102 damage? In a single full attack!?!
Sure, these are impressive numbers you're throwing around but can a 15th level fighter really put out this much damage every round? I think you need to show your math here.
Easily. I'm not even trying that hard to get that.
Okay so:
15th level Fighter gets 3 attacks:
15/10/5
Double Shot feat adds one extra attack, at full bonus, but all attacks take a -2.
So 13/13/8/3
A compound bow gives a strength bonus to damage, in this case we went with +2, at 5th, 9th, and 13th they get an additional +1 cumulative bonus to a weapon. In this case the bow. Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization add more.
Many Shot makes the first shot double damage as well.
Gravity Bow gives the bow's 1d8 an upgrade to 2d6.
So 4 shots:
4d6+18
2d6+9
2d6+9
2d6+910d6+45 damage
So a 15th level Fighter with a bow enchanted with a level 1 spell permanently (Very within the realm of possibility) can get between 55-105 damage every single turn.
That was the sound of the point flying straight over your head with a pinch of ridicule from Kudaku. 100 DPR is absurdly low for a 15th level fighter. Average DPR for a 15th level fighter is closer to 250.
But this illustrates the point beautifully! Your complete and total lack of system mastery is on full display. You have no idea what you are yapping your flapping gums about. You are in fact SO OVLIVIOUS to the pathfinder system that you didn't instantly recognize absurdly wrong numbers for your 15th level fighter (neither when you said them nor when they were tossed back at you.) You have no idea about what makes a good caster in pathfinder. You have no concept of what is actually allowed by the rules when players actually read the full spell descriptions.
You have a point. But that's no reason to be a dick about it.
There are better ways to demonstrate his lack of system mastery without saying things like "YOU SUCK, YOU HAVE NO F*@&ING CLUE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU STUPID (*&@y^#*)(&#^(&@#$."
I prefer this approach, as it doesn't make you come across as petty:
Let's take a mostly-optimized end-game PFS Fighter character (12th level) that has WBL (108,000 gold, say 100,000 after consumables and other miscellaneous costs). He starts with 20 Strength from point buy, gets a +6 Strength belt (16,000 gold), +3 from levels, sitting at 29 Strength (which is ~+9 modifier). He specializes in two-handed weapons like every fighter basically should (so Two-handed Fighter archetype), and has Winged Boots [15,000] (most every caster in a PFS scenario will have a Haste spell memorized). He has a +5 Nodachi [50,000] (Crit-Fishing is more valuable than damage dice), standard Full Plate [1,500] (because let's face it, you don't need AC as a Two-hander Martial in terms of optimization), Gloves of Dueling [15,000] (to amp up the Weapon Training bonuses) and a +3 Cloak of Resistance [9,000] (because charm/compulsions against you suck).
For Feats, he has the de-facto Power Attack, combined with Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization, all with the Nodachi. Iron Will and Improved Iron Will are always nice, and maybe Toughness since you're more reliant on your life force than your actual defenses. Maybe Hammer the Gap for even more damage with our iteratives.
Now for attack rolls. Assuming Haste is rolling (as it should, since the casters may want to spend a round before combat starts to apply it), we have 4 attacks, two at highest BAB. So, we take our BAB (12), plus our Strength (9), plus our Weapon Training/Focus bonuses (6), and our Weapon Enhancement/Haste bonuses (6), leaving us with a grand total of +33/+33/+28/+23. With Power Attack, we're sitting at +29/+29/+24/+19.
For our damage, we have a +9 Strength modifier that's 1.5x for Two-handed attacks (+13) that doubles on your iterative attacks (+18), taken with Power Attack (+12), Weapon Training and Weapon Specializations (+8), Weapon Enhancement (+5 which makes these attacks bypass all Damage Reduction exception for weapon-based and DR/-), leaves us with +38/+43 on each attack. If we don't want to Power Attack because of an extremely high AC monster, then we're still doing +24/+29 per hit. With a 15-20 two-handed weapon, on average, one of those attacks will critical, doubling the pluses and damage dice.
This PC is 12th level, making him CR 11. Against a CR 14 creature (say, this creature), using Power Attack and average rolls (i.e. 'take 10'), he is hitting this creature with every attack, bypassing any sort of DR he has, and is dealing an average total of 189 damage from a single full attack action. The creature's average hit points are 203. With higher damage dice rolls, I would 1-round this creature that is 3 CR higher than me.
It's threads like this that make me yearn for the rules forum
Yes, they need to be some what equal for both type of players to have fun! No fun when you can't hit anything when your casters blast them all by the time you get there for 5 encounters. And when you do get to them you either got charm or something nasty happen to you.
Do we have to change class features for martials? Not really other than fighter's bravery should be heroism instead and Rogue should be just as skillful as bard in late levels.
Then how we balance them? Magical items! Magical items for martial in pathfinder is very weak compare to what monsters and casters can do. +5 bonus to get 19 Spell Resistance? No thanks... One, they don't stack. Two, at level 19, no caster nor monsters with that much caster level will need to roll at all. And there are things to increase caster levels which not only render this useless, but also boost their casting ability. So why they make it in the first place? Stupidity I suppose.
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I don't believe this thread can end well.
But if your martials don't seem to be lacking power, I suspect the issue is that your high level casters (both allies and enemies) are not being played to what most of us on here would consider even a quarter of their potential.
In my campaigns, the issue of how weak martials are starts occuring around 4th level spells, but becomes impossible to ignore around 7th level spells. It becomes even more apparent when Martials (for what ever reason) cannot recieve the magical buffs their team mates bestow. Without the martials around, casters tend to be completely fine or if not haves a means of escape. Martials tend to be lacking key abilities to participate or contribute in fights and have no means to escape higher level enemies.
These are things that are hardwired into the system. If you do not experience these things, the issue is most likely something you are doing not the system.