I want to play a Divine character but I am conflicted on which one of them to play as. I normally play a Bard and I have been dying to play an Arcanist but I want a character who can cast and fight in melee and I don't see much of how a Arcanist could do that.
So I was thinking either Cleric, Paladin, or Warpriest.
Assume the best scores possible because right now its in theory.
I am considering a Bad Touch or Necro Cleric, Paladins are always fun but the LG can be tricky depending on which DM I get (One is more lax on what Lawful means) and Warpriest is just sweet for a melee fighter who casts a bit of divine.
But I know Cleric can go full battle mode as well. So I am really conflicted. Which is a better option for someone who wants to be able to do it all. Cast spells, move into melee and deal some nice damage, step back and do some skill rolls, and maybe even dabble in Face.
battle oracle ftw
Can I ask why you favor that choice?
I know nothing about the Shaman. The bard like cleric is a fun idea, I do need to look into that.
Well, you are interested in a divine character, that can cast and fight. Battle mystery oracle fits the bill better than cleric, due to having more skill points, which you also expressed some interest in. Note that some of the other mysteries are good at making a 'battle cleric' type of character as well.
Feats are really wide open on this type of character, as you get the combat ones you need from battle revelations.
You can also snag channeling at L7 if you take the spirit guide archetype(life spirit) or with a ring of revelation.
Rare you hear the spontaneous caster being called better then the prepared.
I will look into this. But as I said assume perfect scores a 2+4 each level is a lot of skills too.
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Bull s&!% is what I call it.
Oracles are heretical scum compared to the cleric.
Only thing it has going for it is a few extra skills and better channel energy (but that locks you into life).
A evangelist can pull off many different builds tho if you like physical combat...reach tactics mixed with summoning (sacred summons), bardic performance can put out lots of damage as well as being a party force multiple while the Oracle tries to be as good.
Well, not really locked into life, it is a battle oracle. The channeling comes from either an archetype or a magic item. Battle oracle gets revelations which give rather nice combat bonuses.
Reach tactics are very viable with a single revelation choice.
Summoning with the full cleric SM spell list, and as many feats as you care to devote to it.
And numerous abilities that give bonuses to either yourself, or the entire party.
Are you talking about the cleric archetype cleric evangelist? The one that doesn't get: spontaneous cures, heavy armor, medium armor, and limited channeling? It's certainly ok, and gets some of the nice bard abilities, but for pure combat, I think the battle oracle beats it.
Guys I do not wan to turn this into a Oracle vs Cleric thread.
I looked into the battle oracle and its revelations do grant a few nice revelations but not nearly as many.
One reason I am focusing on Divine is I can wear armor without worrying about spell failure.
Have you considered a druid? Wildshape is good for a frontliner, and in the lower levels can go with Shillelagh
I have been looking at the Druid, especially the Reincarnated one and trying to figure if that would be a fun thing to play or not with its weird rules and what not.
Inquisitor is awesome looking, but I don't know if I like their style. They are very cool.
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Chibi --
Here's my opinion. You cannot go wrong with any of the choices presented. I've played with all of them. They're all great! Pick what suits you.
Oracles -- Wacky and powerful revelations. Charisma to be party face. Spontaneous casting which means you have to pick spells you love and carry wands and scrolls as backup for more situational stuff. Curses! Curses are the best part of being an oracle. Tons of RP factor!
I've played a haunted heavens oracle, a deaf oradin (paladin / spirit guide life oracle), and a blind psychic searcher lunar oracle. They're all different and fascinating. I think I could just keep making new ones to try out the different mysteries and curses. Lots of freedom to pick the feats that suit you.
Evangelist Cleric -- OMG, this is awesome. Bardic performance and prepared clerical spells. You can play them with one of three main build types:
1) The fighter cleric -- high strength, decent dex, wisdom of 14, reach weapon and fighter feats.
2) The summoner cleric -- high wisdom, other stats where you want them, summoning feats, reach weapon.
3) The hangover cleric -- charisma as high as it will go, and worship of a neutral god with rulership portfolio so you can dazing channel. Wis of 14. Overpowered battlefield control.
Inquisitor -- Best sense motive, perception and intimidate in the game. The possibility of wisdom based social skills. Amazing melee potential with banes, judgments and self-buffing. Skill monkey. Again, awesome.
What appeals to you most? Tell us, and we'll help you build it.
Evangelist cleric...much like bard...9th level spells.
Bull s*!# is what I call it.
Oracles are heretical scum compared to the cleric.
Only thing it has going for it is a few extra skills and better channel energy (but that locks you into life).
Sir, you have both my total agreement and my angry and bitter disapproval.
Evangelist is just... just the best. Give up a domain to do what a Bard does plus full casting is ridiculously good. Take an Evangelist with the Heroism Domain and you can also pick up Heroism and the Touch of Glory power to also be charismatic now and then.
Oracles are nothing special... until you pick up one of the uber-powerful mysteries. If you want to be a melee-caster, take Nature, Lore or Lunar. With the CHA for DEX substitution, do something like:
Dual Talent Human/ Angel-Kin: 16/18STR, 7DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 9WIS, 16/18CHA.
Noble Scion of War for CHA initiative, Divine Protection for CHA to all saves.
You now have an Oracle that's flush with melee, AC, and spell DC, as well as some great secondary Revelation stuff with any of those mysteries. You can also grab the Dual Cursed Archetype for access to the awesome Ill Omen spell and Misfortune Revelation, or the Warsighted Oracle for feats, or the Spirit Guide Oracle for a Shaman spirit.
As a side-note, my latest interest is Quickened Ill Omen - ruin 3 d20 rolls with the wave of a hand by 10. Quickened Ill Omen, slap them with a control spell and advance, laugh as they try to hit back, full attack. It doesn't hurt either that the Oracle can pick up one level of Barbarian and Rage Cycle from level 6.
Beyond their Charisma for Dexterity AC, Lore and Nature don't have scintillating combat revelations - makes them great mysteries for the Oradin or anyone else who doesn't get many revelations, but a full-casting combat Oracle can get a greater range of useful fighting revelations and bonus spells from Metal or Battle.
Still, the Warpriest is fascinating and the Paladin is ever a favourite of mine. I can't speak for how the Evangelist Cleric compares to the Metal or Battle mystery Oracle.
Though as a side note on that topic:
Evangelist cleric...much like bard...9th level spells.
Or a shaman.
And yet you are willing to call the oracle heretical scum?
Beyond their Charisma for Dexterity AC, Lore and Nature don't have scintillating combat revelations - makes them great mysteries for the Oradin or anyone else who doesn't get many revelations, but a full-casting combat Oracle can get a greater range of useful fighting revelations and bonus spells from Metal or Battle.
It depends on what you're looking for. Nature and Lunar can get full-level mount or animal companion, though things like War Sight and Surprise Charge are definitely really great for melee. Either way, being able to stack both charisma and strength and then play initiative, saves and AC off of charisma is incredibly powerful. Nature can also throw Barkskin on top of their stacked charisma AC to dwarf the normal 'full-plate with 12 dex' defense, and they can be adding a +4 from Natural Divination to their stacked charisma-based initiative rolls.
Pretty much everything with divine casting can be made into a strong melee class. I'm still not sure if the Shaman applies for that, the class's options for melee are really weak compared to its options for utility.
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Guys I do not wan to turn this into a Oracle vs Cleric thread.
Let's respect the original poster's wishes.
Oracles, evangelists, druids (which I left out of my earlier post only because I forgot to write them up) and inquisitors are all crazy good and in different ways. Let's agree to disagree.
I looked into the battle oracle and its revelations do grant a few nice revelations but not nearly as many.
Battle oracle is all about melee. But if you find it kind of boring, it's not the only good combat mystery. Ancestor, Metal, Wood, and Lunar are all about kicking butt and taking names. And most of the other mysteries can do melee just fine too.
The neat thing about oracles is that they are customizable. When I built my Oradin, I realized that I only wanted three of Life's revelations. The rest I could care less about. That freed me up to take Spirit Guide Archetype, which gives me a chance to play with the toys of other oracles through a wandering spirit. Spirit guide trades off getting some free revelations from your mystery in exchange for getting the flexibility to dip into others. My point (and I do have one) is that if you only like a few revelations, you can still do that mystery and get cool stuff.
BTW, I disagree with the posters who believe that the charisma to AC revelations are the only ones worth having. They can be useful (I took one on my lunar oracle) but they cost feats to make optimal and they severely limit your armor choices because they do armor checks on your spell casting stat.
I have been looking at the Druid, especially the Reincarnated one and trying to figure if that would be a fun thing to play or not with its weird rules and what not.
Druids are without a doubt awesome. They have a wide range of interesting spells, wildshape, a completely open animal companion list, and they are very much capable of either being melee monsters or having their animal friends be melee monsters. The lack of metal armor is annoying but it can be worked around. I haven't done reincarnated, so can't say anything about that archetype. Still, druids are a really strong class with lots of options.
Inquisitor is awesome looking, but I don't know if I like their style. They are very cool.
Inquisitor can be roleplayed a dozen different ways. You don't have to be the jerk who persecutes heretics. You can be the spy or investigator out to solve a mystery involving a matter of the church. You choose the RP, and the style. Make it work for you.
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I repeat... All of these are great options. What sort of things interest you most, Chibi?
The inquisitor is definitely worth taking a look at. The description of a class is mostly fluff and can and should be altered to fit the character. Other than alignment restrictions and following the general teachings of their deity inquisitors have very little hard coded into the class. In fact they actually have more freedom to use questionable methods than any another divine character. This does not mean that they have to use those methods, simply that they have the option to use them.
Basically an inquisitor is the agent for the deity that gets things done. How he accomplish his goal is strictly up to him and his deity. This does not mean they are all scary treacherous bastards, although they can be. I can see inquisitors of Cayden Cailean as a happy go lucky type that goes all out against slavery. You could also have an inquisitor or Abadar run as a judge making sure merchants are honest. A inquisitor of Pharasma could be a undead hunter specializing in finding hidden undead.
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*you see a cleric cupping his ear like he is hard of hearing*
"What? It's hard to hear this idea a Oracle is superior to a cleric from up here in Tier 1. Come back up here and say it to my face."
*listens to muffled cries*
"Oh yeah I forgot you fell back to Tier 2 after they fixed that eldritch heritage and paragon surge shenanigans."
Anyways don't mind me I'll bow out due to the OPs wish to not derail.
You folks have a fine time.
I was not aware you could take different Mysteries through any means. It is one of the things that bug me the most about the Oracle is that you get locked into one Mystery when it might only have a handful of things you like about it.
I looked into Oracle for a groot-like character when Guardians came out and it was fun looking but really felt a little hampered by that. I will have to look into the Spirit Guide.
Again very little known about the Shaman, it seems like a good 9th level spell caster but I don't have any experience or knowledge of it.
Cleric is a tier 1, but comes with the need to specialize into 1 field and you are kind of stuck into that field so its almost best to go generic Support Cleric or Bad Touch just to have versatility.
Inquisitor is a good class, I love me a Bard so this class really came off like a divine bard-like character that focuses more on self-buffing and offense which was cool. Honestly a Inquisitor with a Bard VMC would be sweet for Monster IDing due to Bardic Knowledge and Monster Lore stacking. (1/2 Level + Wis) Tack that onto Knowledge Devotion (3.5 but it works fine in PF) and you have a pretty good melee combo.
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The Spirit Guide Oracle trades off all your mystery's skills for the ability to take all knowledges as class skills. You lose a number of free revelations for the ability to bond with a different wandering spirit each day.
At third level, you get to pick a wandering hex from a given spirit. At fourth level, you can play with the spells granted by that spirit.
Some of the wandering hexes sure look like oracle revelations. Many are awesome. Heavens gets a free once a day teleport for each member of your party. Flames gets the ability to see through mists and fog. There are other cool ones too.
What's missing? You won't see the charisma to AC revelations that people specifically dip oracle for. You won't see Awesome Display, which allows you to color spray everything in sight.
But there is a lot of great content and inherent flexibility to that archetype, and more content keeps getting added as they add shaman spirits. It's the archetype that keeps giving.
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As for inquisitors, I've seen them dish out more damage than anything else at a table. They're an incredibly powerful class that can be built in a number of different ways.
If you're interested in Cleric, check out Herald Caller. You'll probably want a deity with Neutral in their alignment, and you can pick up Summon Good/Summon Neutral/Summon Evil monster. Being able to spontaneously cast both cure and summoning spells means you're really flexible in the spells you actually prep.
I'm not remotely a fan of the archetype.... but an unaligned Ecclesitheurge with scribe scroll could get pretty bonkers spellwise...
Why?
Why what?
Why is it bonkers?
A regular cleric can access only 2 domains from his deity whereas an Ecclesitheurge has access to all and since it has been established that a clerics domains count as part of his spell list, the Ecclesitheurge can simply swap and change through his domains, scribing scrolls along the way..... an unaligned (ie a cleric of a 'philosophy')Ecclesitheurge could pick 4 of the juiciest domains (eg Travel, Trickery, Fire, Void)(all gods give a minimum of 4 domains/subdomains access)and be quids in.....
Yes but you lose the ability to wear armor and you do not get anything to buff your AC. So you would lose any ability to step into battle. I mean even if you figured an 18 into Dex you would have a 14 AC a stiff breeze will hit that AC.
Yes that is a problem.... but there are some good armour buff spells, Trickery nets you Mirror Image spell, Liberation domain makes you basically immune to CMB stuff past a certain level.... and if you're prepared to take a 1 lvl dip to Warpriest (Sacred Fist).... you can get Wis to AC, Acrobatics as a class skill and a couple of Lvl 1 blessings... Protection and Luck??
Yeah I know about Sacred Fist, it would work well but I am not sure if I like having to take a 1 level dip just to survive.
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For you Chibi, I don't think the Ecclesitheurge is the right choice. You want spell casting and melee. I think of the Eccesitheurge as the stand-in-the-back "Protect me, I'm just a caster!" kind of guy. Yes, that is what wizards and sorcerers do. But the arcane types have more options for spell protection than divines do.
It's a powerful caster, no question. But it's not a fighter. If you chose to go cleric, you'd be better off with an evangelist cleric that can buff himself and the entire party. The new Herald Caller is not bad, either.
Which is a better option for someone who wants to be able to do it all. Cast spells, move into melee and deal some nice damage, step back and do some skill rolls, and maybe even dabble in Face.
Have you considered the Magus? While it's not that great of a face, it can do all of those other things fairly well.
The Bloodrager is another good option. It's at least as much of a spell caster as a Paladin, while not being restricted by alignment. And 4+ skill points means you can be a little bit of a skills guy without having to stack intelligence.
Which is a better option for someone who wants to be able to do it all. Cast spells, move into melee and deal some nice damage, step back and do some skill rolls, and maybe even dabble in Face.
Three fairly simple options for being good at both offensive spellcasting and melee:
1. Evangelist with the Heroism Domain. Heroism + Inspire Courage + Divine Favor + Fate's Favored means that you're so damn buffed you can split your ability scores or even favor wisdom and still have no trouble hitting. As an added bonus, Touch of Glory from Glory\Heroism lets you pretend you have great charisma several times a day.
2. Guided Hand Evangelist Cleric. Wisdom for attack rolls so that strength is secondary (you still want maybe 14 and item for damage and Power Attack). Bonus style points if you cross it with one level of Kata Master Monk and play 'sword saint'. A wisdom-based Gorum Evangelist using flurry and parry and riposte with a greatsword while wearing a robe is hilarious - call him Old Man War.
3. Nature/Lore/Lunar Oracle. For obvious reasons, as mentioned above. Not hard at all to have 20 or more for both key ability scores fairly quickly.
For any of these options, Dual Talent Human or variant Aasimar are generally the way to go for securing solid ability scores. While Divine Control options can be a little dull, Admonishing Ray is perfect for a little bit of violent metamagic fun with Toppling and Dazing, and your combat buffs benefit all associated rolls (including tripping with Toppling).