RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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"But ... DRAGONS!!!!"
Invalid argument.
To be fair, in this case the person very explicitly made a blanket statement that anything nonmagical needs to be realistic in his fantasy. Thus, in THIS case, the "But DRAGONS!!!" thing is perfectly valid.
It's very often misused, but this time it was an appropriate response.
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I wrote a piece on fantasy physics for my home game.
An alternate cosmology explained or “How I stopped worrying and learned to Love the Greataxe”
The game does not take place on the Prime material plane(PMP).
The Universe acually exists on the Energetic material plane(EMP), Which is membrane that seperates the PMP from the rest of the Multi-verse.
The PMP is the universe that we occupy in real life,here on Earth.Our earthy cosmology is a “Particulate” cosmology…meaning all “stuff” is made from tiny peices of “other stuff”.
We are multi-cellular organisms,made of cells/atoms/etc..
Physical processes in the PMP interact in an aggregate mechanical way,producing all change thru mathematical evolution that can be understood by our version of science.
The EMP is not made of Particles.The “substance” of the universe is holographically projected,into the 3rd dimension from the 2 dimensional Mobius topography of the plane.
What does this mean? It means there is no “Stuff”…let that sink in a moment.
For anything to be “made out of”.All material substances and creatures are essentially single celled projections.All projections are composed of different configurations and intensities of energy.Arising thru spontaneous generation.
“OK?,if Grok made of energy…Why Grok bleed?” Because “Grok” (in this example) is one example of the Platonic form,or “Idea of” what an Orc is expected to be.Orcs are made of flesh and blood. The idea of Grok is like a mold in which the energy pools.
What types of energy make up the plane?
· Earth/air/fire/water
· Good/Evil/Law/Chaos
· Light/Dark/Positive/negative
Who decides what forms the energy takes? Every dreaming creature throughout the multi-verse projects their hopes,fears, and fantasies into EMP.
The EMP is the collective unconcious of the PMP: It’s literally the stuff that dreams are made of.
What is “The Weave” made of ? Void. The Weave is a Platonic form imagined by ‘AO the Overgod’.It is the fabric of the plane itself.
What is the Plane shaped like? A Sudanese Möbius band.With one Light and one Dark side.
Where does the energy come from? Entropy. The EMP is where the entropic run-off from the multiverse ends up.It is the other side of the black hole,it’s where your other sock went.Anything that’s disintigrated beyond fundamental cohesion re-manifests here as energy.
Why is this important? Because this cosmology is what allows the world to function the way that it does.
· Magic – functions because the weave is sensitive to the thoughts and desires of intelligent beings.
· Experience points- Are a measurement of the quantity of potential energy in a given being.
· Leveling up – Happens whenever the Potential energy in a being reaches a discernably higher threshold.
· Hit Points- Are not an abstraction.they are a literal measurement of the Vital energy that allows you to function and stay concious.Physics try to work as they do in our world ,up to a point.If you have a large number of hit points you have a supernatural capacity to resist injury.A Slashing blade attack ,that would cut a weak being in half, would instead be converted to Impact.
· Flesh- Beings with large amounts of hit points manifest them in a variety of ways.Usually it’s imperceptible,muscles and underlying tissues grow increasingly dense and rubbery.Other creatures grow hard scales and rigid bone structures.
...I don't have a problem with 'fantastical' things EXCEPT when it is so bizarre it interrupts my suspension of disbelief.
If you insist that something is non-magical, yet it is clearly not possible... Well let's just say that it is jarring to my OCD Engineering Mind.
There was some build a while back that had a gunslinger firing-reloading-firing 10 shots (I think) round after round. With no magic involved. Ok, that jumps out at me.
People without magic just don't move that fast. Besides, if you try to ram a muzzle loader that quick, I'm pretty sure either the friction with the barrel or the impact at the bottom of the barrel will set off the black powder. If nothing else the barrel will quickly get so hot that mere contact with the barrel would ignite black powder.
It doesn't make sense even in your fantasy world and that bugs me.
Now if you say something like A gunslinger begins to get the notice of the X god who is impressed and grants Y power... Ok, you have an in game justification for it that works within the physical universe set up for your game.I once was in a group that all jumped off a cliff (several hundred foot high). One was in in full plate armor. They reasoned that the falling damage and resources expended would be less than what they would need to get down the possibly trapped/guarded path. Plus they were in a hurry to accomplish more that session. No magic involved.
They should have had splintered bones, been buried into the ground, gear bent/mashed, etc... Nope, nothing but a click stick afterward.
If you have something in your setting that says after killing 14k magical enemies even a swordsman begins to absorb some of their magical power and can now do Z...
But without it, it doesn't make sense even within your fantasy game.Yes, I know there are people that are not bothered by that kind of thing. Their suspension of disbelief is nearly infinite. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or is logically inconsistent.
But there
It's not invalid. His complaint is that a higher then level 6 character falling doesn't die. That requires just as much suspension of belief as Giant Insects who should not be able to breathe at that size. Each is equally in violation of Physics. if one violation of physics bothers him, then all should. That's not a fallacy, mostly because it's a question and not an argument in the first place and secondly because even if it was it isn't a false equivalency. Please present a valid argument against my next time.
Ninja'd by Jiggy.
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I assume you are also bothered by dragons flying and the fact that giants and giant bugs exist.
Actually dragons, not at all. They are obviously a magical creature. The giant bugs and giants, yeah a bit. Except there is at least some evidence that pretty dang big bugs do work somewhat. And in lots of legend/fantasy stuff the giants and giant bugs are magical and/or created by magic so that it does somehow work.
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... but I would think it could be restated as "things which could conceivably exist in the real world should be realistic"
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Pretty close, except I would add something along the lines of "... unless there is some other in-game justification."
And no, I don't count 'I want my martial to have nice things' as an in-game justification.
I
"But ... DRAGONS!!!!"
Invalid argument.
To be fair, in this case the person very explicitly made a blanket statement that anything nonmagical needs to be realistic in his fantasy. Thus, in THIS case, the "But DRAGONS!!!" thing is perfectly valid.
It's very often misused, but this time it was an appropriate response.
I would tend to argue against dragons being nonmagical?
I can't speak 100% for the other person, but I would think it could be restated as "things which could conceivably exist in the real world should be realistic"
Dragons are by their very nature fantastic creatures. A man swinging a sword is also. A man casting a spell is not. A man falling from 1,000 feet without magical assistance is something potentially "real" ... Etc.
A high level person is also by it's very nature fantastic to people in our world where no one has ever gone above level 5. I have for example seen many level 10 people fall without breaking even a single bone. That may be fantastic to you, a 2-4HD individual, but it's not for those 10+HD individual. It is in fact, exceedingly ordinary.
...I don't have a problem with 'fantastical' things EXCEPT when it is so bizarre it interrupts my suspension of disbelief.
If you insist that something is non-magical, yet it is clearly not possible... Well let's just say that it is jarring to my OCD Engineering Mind.
There was some build a while back that had a gunslinger firing-reloading-firing 10 shots (I think) round after round. With no magic involved. Ok, that jumps out at me.
People without magic just don't move that fast. Besides, if you try to ram a muzzle loader that quick, I'm pretty sure either the friction with the barrel or the impact at the bottom of the barrel will set off the black powder. If nothing else the barrel will quickly get so hot that mere contact with the barrel would ignite black powder.
It doesn't make sense even in your fantasy world and that bugs me.
Now if you say something like A gunslinger begins to get the notice of the X god who is impressed and grants Y power... Ok, you have an in game justification for it that works within the physical universe set up for your game.I once was in a group that all jumped off a cliff (several hundred foot high). One was in in full plate armor. They reasoned that the falling damage and resources expended would be less than what they would need to get down the possibly trapped/guarded path. Plus they were in a hurry to accomplish more that session. No magic involved.
They should have had splintered bones, been buried into the ground, gear bent/mashed, etc... Nope, nothing but a click stick afterward.
If you have something in your setting that says after killing 14k magical enemies even a swordsman begins to absorb some of their magical power and can now do Z...
But without it, it doesn't make sense even within your fantasy game.Yes, I know there are people that are not bothered by that kind of thing. Their suspension of disbelief is nearly infinite. It doesn't matter if it makes
Read my post and Jiggy's to see why you are still wrong. Please make a valid argument next time.
What's the least physically plausible flying creature in common use in Pathfinder that isn't supposed to be at all magical? Roc? Harpy? Dire bat?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I can't speak 100% for the other person, but I would think it could be restated as "things which could conceivably exist in the real world should be realistic"
1) That's different than what he said, and the reply was to him, not you. The reply not applying to you or your version doesn't make it an invalid response to him and his version.
2) Your version is circular: Why doesn't X have to be realistic? Because it's not something that you could imagine happening in real life. Why can't you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's not realistic. And yet, why does Y have to be realistic? Because it's something you can imagine happening in real life. But why can you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's realistic.
What seems to trip your trigger is when something tries to jump from category Y to category X. For instance, you see a 1st-level fighter fall and die, and you think "That's realistic, therefore it's in the 'what I can imagine happening in real life' category, therefore it must remain realistic". Then when the game tries to give him enough HP that the fall is no longer lethal, you think "That's not realistic, but this is a thing that I already decided has to remain realistic, therefore there's a problem". But if you look at something that STARTED as unrealistic (like giant insects), then you think "This is unrealistic, therefore it's in the 'thing I couldn't conceivably see happening in real life' category, therefore it doesn't have to be realistic", so there's no issue.
No person past level isn't a RAW/RAI issue in the first place. And while there may be another interpretation, such interpretation would have a lot to explain away that our world not having anyone higher than 5 HD does. I await an alternate interpretation that is as valid.
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Perfect example of a person not only preferring the "reality + magic" type of fantasy, but of not quite grokking that fantasy can be something else and still "make sense" without requiring that the viewer doesn't care about suspension of disbelief and so forth.Fantasy that doesn't require magic/divinity to do the impossible is old and well-established around the world. Just because it's not your preference or default assumption doesn't mean it requires its audience to have a "near infinite suspension of disbelief" or that any sort of internal consistency or "sense" must be thrown out the window.
If something happens in a fantasy story/game that "doesn't make sense", it's more likely that you just made a wrong assumption about what type of fantasy you were looking at than that there's anything lacking in that fantasy's "sense" or "logic".
I disagree with your basic posit in the first 2 paragraphs.
If something does happen that isn't possible with no reason / justification to make it possible, then that is suspension of disbelief because it is not internally consistent.I absolutely agree with your last paragraph. If you do havesome other rule/property in your list of assumptions that is different. If your fantasy has something in it that does allow that fantastical action to take place, then I'm probably ok with it.
Even if you say it is non-magical but there is some property in the world that allows a human that has been in a lot of tough situations to move his hands faster than a hummingbird ok. I might think it is kinda weird that you felt the need to add such a weird ability and yet label it 'not magic' but at least it is then internally consistent and logical.
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What seems to trip your trigger is when something tries to jump from category Y to category X. For instance, you see a 1st-level fighter fall and die, and you think "That's realistic, therefore it's in the 'what I can imagine happening in real life' category, therefore it must remain realistic". Then when the game tries to give him enough HP that the fall is no longer lethal, you think "That's not realistic, but this is a thing that I already decided has to remain realistic, therefore there's a problem". But if you look at something that STARTED as unrealistic (like giant insects), then you think "This is unrealistic, therefore it's in the 'thing I couldn't conceivably see happening in real life' category, therefore it doesn't have to be realistic", so there's no issue.
Probably to a certain extent. But there is also a matter of degree. It isn't that hard to imagine a slightly different set of physical properties that would make very big birds, bugs, and humanoids work reasonably well. Yet still wouldn't warp the world completely out of the realm of recognizable.
It is much more difficult (for some of us at least) to imagine a set of physical properties that would allow someone, who just has a lot more experience than most, to routinely jump off of cliffs and move faster than a humming bird without magic.
{shrug} I know I'm not going to convince you to join me. That is fine. The OP asked 'why?'
I'm answering 'why?' at least from my point of view.
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"Brawndo!,It's got electrolytes!"
"but what are electrolytes?"
"They're what plants crave!"
"but why do they crave Brawndo?"
"because it's got electrolytes!" *facepalm*
Im just gonna mention that dragon flight is Ex,not Su. It still operates in an anti magic field. So its flught is purely phyScal. No magic involved.
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Perfect example of a person not only preferring the "reality + magic" type of fantasy, but of not quite grokking that fantasy can be something else and still "make sense" without requiring that the viewer doesn't care about suspension of disbelief and so forth.Fantasy that doesn't require magic/divinity to do the impossible is old and well-established around the world. Just because it's not your preference or default assumption doesn't mean it requires its audience to have a "near infinite suspension of disbelief" or that any sort of internal consistency or "sense" must be thrown out the window.
If something happens in a fantasy story/game that "doesn't make sense", it's more likely that you just made a wrong assumption about what type of fantasy you were looking at than that there's anything lacking in that fantasy's "sense" or "logic".
I disagree with your basic posit in the first 2 paragraphs.
If something does happen that isn't possible with no reason / justification to make it possible, then that is suspension of disbelief because it is not internally consistent.
First of all, it is internally consistent. Any creature with enough HD will survive falling damage, which is consistent across the board for everything including humans. The fall damage caps at the same amount for everyone. That is by definition internally consistent.
It isn't that hard to imagine a slightly different set of physical properties that would make very big birds, bugs, and humanoids work reasonably well. Yet still wouldn't warp the world completely out of the realm of recognizable.
If that isn't difficult then I recommend imagining a world where people higher then 5 HD exist. They have "a different set of physical properties" that would make a 10 HD person capable of surviving a fall. The world of 6+ HD is for us by and large not recognizable, thus demanding a world that is not recognizable by us, be recognizable seems an odd demand at best.
Also remember, all laws of physics apply. Earth is a real planet in Golarian lore...
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For my part, I want as much realism as you can get in my fantasy game. Fighters, and other non-magical PC's are there to keep the game grounded. They are the hero that anyone can become....the local farmboy who decides to fight for his town. The cutpurse who seeks redemption via a righteous quest, etc.. That said, a well built fighter can pretty much toast the most powerful caster in one round in most cases. Yes, High level mages can toss down powerful spells like disintegrate, prismatic spray, wall of force, etc... But a prepared fighter is going to shrug that stuff off with either good saves or tactics to overcome those problems. I have yet, in all of our campaigns, to see a martial character overshadowed by the spellcasters in the group.
If you have serious disparity between classes, perhaps the DM isn't doing their job of maintaining balance and flavor. I'm a big one for cultural / regional restrictions. A Katapesh sorcerer is not going to be allowed to select Snowball or Flurry of Snowballs from the People of the North book in my game unless they have run into someone from that area who can teach them this foreign magic. I also maintain a hard line on feats / spells that are specific to a particular race / religion / culture, etc.. If you allow people to just pick anything from any source, you're going to always run into min-max characters who have no flavor other than "this is the most efficient way of dealing damage". BORING.
2) Your version is circular: Why doesn't X have to be realistic? Because it's not something that you could imagine happening in real life. Why can't you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's not realistic. And yet, why does Y have to be realistic? Because it's something you can imagine happening in real life. But why can you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's realistic.
i think this is the end all be all of the discussion, i will just quote this occasionally.
this basically comes down to this is how they feel it would work, and thus anything else feels wrong.
you're not going to get closer to the crux of your argument than this.
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There's a rather infamous discussion with SKR when he worked here that went something like "Why can't a fighter reload a crossbow and talk at the same time?"
and SKR was like "why can't you?"
then someone else was like "why can't you, SKR, cast a quickened fireball, a fireball, and drop to prone in 6 seconds?"
and he was like "Because I'm not a wizard"
If I had been involved in that discussion at the time, I probably would have gotten a post deleted, and possibly a temporary ban for my response to that. The PG version would have been something along these lines:
"And I'm not a fighter, dumbass."
As someone who has butted-heads with SKR before, and someone who was involved in that exact conversation; I can tell you for certain that SKR didn't say anything like that in that conversation.
Also, given his current direction with Five Moons, I think it is safe to say that he didn't think that crossbows should be limited in that way either.
Also, while the dude is definitely brash (bordering on out-right nasty at times) he isn't an idiot. He wouldn't leave himself open like that.
And since feel is the entire point of the thing why is this post viewed as some sort of awesome mic drop?
2) Your version is circular: Why doesn't X have to be realistic? Because it's not something that you could imagine happening in real life. Why can't you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's not realistic. And yet, why does Y have to be realistic? Because it's something you can imagine happening in real life. But why can you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's realistic.
i think this is the end all be all of the discussion, i will just quote this occasionally.
this basically comes down to this is how they feel it would work, and thus anything else feels wrong.
you're not going to get closer to the crux of your argument than this.
Because it shows that the argument is circular and therefore not good logic?
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So people like to reference King Arthur and Merlin for the martial/caster thing done right.
How about Liu Bei, Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, and Zhuge Liang? Or does the very fact that the Romance of the Three Kingdoms is Chinese make for "wah too wuxia"?
Bear in mind that in the novels, not what is based on it, there is a substantial amount of 'maybe magic, maybe mundane' happening, beyond the Yellow Turban uprising and the workingse of Sima Yi or other known workers of mystical abilities.
And I can accept the idea of legend and myth scope being separate things only as much as the departure from said should be equally applicable. After all, the Right Veda is chock fill of mythical martial not constrained by mundanity in any form.
Because it shows that the argument is circular and therefore not good logic?And since feel is the entire point of the thing why is this post viewed as some sort of awesome mic drop?
2) Your version is circular: Why doesn't X have to be realistic? Because it's not something that you could imagine happening in real life. Why can't you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's not realistic. And yet, why does Y have to be realistic? Because it's something you can imagine happening in real life. But why can you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's realistic.
i think this is the end all be all of the discussion, i will just quote this occasionally.
this basically comes down to this is how they feel it would work, and thus anything else feels wrong.
you're not going to get closer to the crux of your argument than this.
But it's got electrolytes!
We need an objective standard to base this "realism" on. Some people sit down to play and are picturing a movie....others are picturing a cartoon...sometimes these two player's are sitting right next to each other and have no idea that what their imagining is completely different.
And since feel is the entire point of the thing why is this post viewed as some sort of awesome mic drop?
2) Your version is circular: Why doesn't X have to be realistic? Because it's not something that you could imagine happening in real life. Why can't you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's not realistic. And yet, why does Y have to be realistic? Because it's something you can imagine happening in real life. But why can you imagine it happening in real life? Because it's realistic.
i think this is the end all be all of the discussion, i will just quote this occasionally.
this basically comes down to this is how they feel it would work, and thus anything else feels wrong.
you're not going to get closer to the crux of your argument than this.
no just that any and all arguments will end here as the source. any arguments not digesting this bit of information is a waste of time basically.
(you might have noticed i haven't actually chimed in on this discussion, and have not argued or tried to explain my side. So this wasn't for or against any side.)
All bug bugs need is a higher atmospheric oxygen content.
Given the size of some of the bugs said to exist on Golarion, the oxygen content necessary for them to operate would be well beyond the fatal point of any living human.
Im just gonna mention that dragon flight is Ex,not Su. It still operates in an anti magic field. So its flught is purely phyScal. No magic involved.An Iron Golem is a creature created by magic, does it stop working in an antimagic field?
are dragon wings created by magic? i don't get this.
To go back to the OP: because magic is involved. This is not due to spells, though, it's due to supernatural abilities. Because supernatural abilities are magical, they can be shut down via anti-magic and detected via detect magic. These 'drawbacks' justify a higher power level for mildly reality-warping supernatural abilities than for 'mundane' extraordinary abilities in order to create a balance between the former's positive and negative aspects. And so, developers have the incentive, if not the requirement, to make non-magical elements be weaker than corresponding magical ones. Hence, the problem of 'realism' and how it impacts things like skills, Ex abilities, combat feats, etc.
If we're ever going to see caster vs martial disparity issue fixed, step 1 is to address the idea that magic justifies getting better treatment when it comes to class abilities. To do this, the two 'drawbacks' of supernatural abilities need to be addressed. Detection of supernatural energy is mostly a non-issue; the GM just needs to keep what a "field of mild necromantic energy" or "a tight pocket of intense evocation magic" means vague and not capable of being easily identified with skills like Knowledge (arcana). For the other matter, simply have an anti-magic field convey infinite SR on all creatures in the area so it only affects spells. This simplifies things greatly because now magic items won't turn off inside said field, causing GMs and players to have to recalculate a ton of their characters/creatures bonuses and statistics. If both these are done, non-spell-codified magic in the form of supernatural abilities and effects lose virtually all meaningful distinctions between it and extraordinary abilities. As a result, there's little if any real reason to not start the process of expanding the versatility and power of extraordinary abilities.
The assumption would be that the worlds physics allow a creature with a dragon's physiology to fly.
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All bug bugs need is a higher atmospheric oxygen content.Given the size of some of the bugs said to exist on Golarion, the oxygen content necessary for them to operate would be well beyond the fatal point of any living human.
to be clear, the largest bugs were the dragonflies which were as large as an average hawk. that was with something like twice today's oxygen content.
so... man sized insects? lordy, nothing should have fire resistance. clapping your hands might light you on fire.
@ ElterAgo: you neglected to reply to my post, I don't know whether you missed it or ignored it on purpose so I'm repeating it here. A response would be greatly appreciated.
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Yup, I had missed it.
Yes, the whole hitpoint system is something that bugs me a little (it used to bug me a lot). But I can accept that as an approximation for 'reality' that is used in the game just because it works ok. The systems that I have seen/tried that seem more 'realistic' have all been so cumbersome and slow that the games tended to grind to a halt. So although it doesn't make too much sense, I can give this one a pass in the interests of playability.
It only tends to be an issue for me when the consequences of that approximation give a result way the heck far off from what it is intended to approximate.
Repeating firearms does get rid of the issue with the reload speed. So far, no one in my groups has been interested in using modern-ish firearms.
Again, those were just a couple of fairly random examples of items that jump out at me as 'unrealistic' and tend to jar me out of the game.
First of all, it is internally consistent. Any creature with enough HD will survive falling damage, which is consistent across the board for everything including humans. The fall damage caps at the same amount for everyone. That is by definition internally consistent.
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To me it is inconsistent with the fact that there is no reason why having more mundane experience suddenly makes gravity not pull on you as hard or that you for some reason don't have as much momentum.
Yes, the iron golem has a whole lot of hit points. It's body is made of iron. It is not the basically same body that before having some experience has a good chance of being killed tripping down the front steps and after some experience seems perfectly reasonable to jump off cliffs.
But as I said, I can give a pass on the hit point system most of the time in the interests of playability. It is occasionally much more jarring for certain odd events like this.
... If that isn't difficult then I recommend imagining a world where people higher then 5 HD exist. They have "a different set of physical properties" that would make a 10 HD person capable of surviving a fall. The world of 6+ HD is for us by and large not recognizable, thus demanding a world that is not recognizable by us, be recognizable seems an odd demand at best.
First, your level 5 for is not the same for everyone. Some will insist it is up to 8 is normal guys. Some push it clear up to level 12.
Second, yes it is pretty easy to imagine that some have more experience and gain more from that experience. It is harder to imagine why having that experience suddenly makes the rules of the world behave differently for just those few people.
Third, in your terms. It must be at least somewhat recognizable, else we couldn't even play this game.
Again, if there is some different property in your fantasy world that makes having some more experience in your life change the rules of the physical world for you, then it works.
The problem for me is the people insisting there is nothing changed (no magic, no different physics, no powers granted/learned, etc...). Just the same as the real world, but they can for some unknown reason suddenly do the impossible.
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Let me try another example. Superheroes.
Even as a kid Superman bugged me. Ok, he's really unbelievably strong. Doesn't matter. You can't lift up a building by putting your hand under the corner. That corner of the building would just tear off or crumble.
In fights superman is sometimes knocked about by supposedly normal crooks. But he gets shot by a cannon without being budged in the slightest. Momentum and kinetic energy sometimes works and sometimes doesn't for no discernible reason.
Flash was almost as bad. Ok, let's say I accept that someone can for some reason run, corner, and stop that fast. Everyone and everything anywhere close to his path would burst into flame from the air friction heat of his passage. I'd have to check with some fluid dynamics people to be certain, but I'm pretty sure that running fast won't keep you on the surface of the water. Any equipment, gear, or people carried would be destroyed or dead because they couldn't handle the stresses of that magnitude of acceleration. He couldn't communicate while in motion since the sonic pressure wave from traveling faster than the speed of sound would create a barrier around him. Hmm... Well he might be able to communicate with someone directly behind him. But Doppler effect should make the words unintelligible and the distance traveled should make the end of the first word inaudible.
Spiderman was better. If you accepted the premise that he could climb on walls because he was bit by a radioactive spider, most of the rest of it actually works. He made mechanical device for shooting the webs. Swinging, sling, whip action really can impart a huge amount of kinetic energy. And that is what he mostly used in addition to somewhat stronger than normal. Inertia and momentum function consistently on him. There were some minor 'yeah right' things, but for the most part was believable given the basic setup. (I'm talking the early comics I read as a teenager. The later ones were worse in my opinion.)
Ironman (not the movie) was pretty great. If you allow for the particular scientific advancements, they made a real effort to actually follow the understood physical rules from that point on. Yeah, they actually got some stuff wrong, but it was pretty darn close based on what people knew at the time.
Same for the original novel 2000 Leagues Under the Sea.
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Have you considered the mindset of 'as people reach higher levels, they exceed reality, becoming tougher and more powerful and naturally defying what we would consider realistic'?
Considering that 'higher level' in this game is defined as just having more experience, I can't see how that makes much sense.
{shrug} Again I know I'm not going to convince you to abandon your views on the game. I'm not trying to do that. I wouldn't even if I thought I could. Gaming in general is probably more fun with your point of view. I just don't have it.
The OP asked 'why?' I'm answering 'why?' At least from my point of view.
i've considered using the vigor system, with things like fall damage and the like hitting your actual health points instead of your vigor. but i felt like i've got enough house rules as it is and all it does is try to sooth verisimilitude.
@ the flash, that's actually been explained slightly, he taps into what he calls the speedster dimension i believe which removes momentum and friction from him. like he can vibrate himself through solid objects lack of friction. so...
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Perfect example of a person not only preferring the "reality + magic" type of fantasy, but of not quite grokking that fantasy can be something else and still "make sense" without requiring that the viewer doesn't care about suspension of disbelief and so forth.Fantasy that doesn't require magic/divinity to do the impossible is old and well-established around the world. Just because it's not your preference or default assumption doesn't mean it requires its audience to have a "near infinite suspension of disbelief" or that any sort of internal consistency or "sense" must be thrown out the window.
If something happens in a fantasy story/game that "doesn't make sense", it's more likely that you just made a wrong assumption about what type of fantasy you were looking at than that there's anything lacking in that fantasy's "sense" or "logic".
I disagree with your basic posit in the first 2 paragraphs.
If something does happen that isn't possible with no reason / justification to make it possible, then that is suspension of disbelief because it is not internally consistent.I absolutely agree with your last paragraph. If you do havesome other rule/property in your list of assumptions that is different. If your fantasy has something in it that does allow that fantastical action to take place, then I'm probably ok with it.
Even if you say it is non-magical but there is some property in the world that allows a human that has been in a lot of tough situations to move his hands faster than a hummingbird ok. I might think it is kinda weird that you felt the need to add such a weird ability and yet label it 'not magic' but at least it is then internally consistent and logical.
Uh... I'm not entirely convinced you know what "internally consistent" means. It just means that a given rule within the system applies in the same manner in every applicable circumstance. For example, Pathfinder's HP/damage system functions in the same way for every creature, therefore it's internally consistent, regardless of how well or poorly it models reality. Conversely, if Pathfinder instead had a very realistic injury mechanic but it was applied differently to different creatures with no discernable reason for the difference, then that would be a failure of internal consistency, irrespective of its realism.
Anyway, what you appear to be talking about is that you prefer to have some kind of "justification" for anything that's not "realistic", and you have a narrow list of things that you'll accept as sufficient justification. (That list seems to include "magic", "divine aid", and "I'm used to it"; but does not include "this subgenre has different upper limits of nonmagical prowess than reality does".)
There's a bizarre paradox that I see constantly in the Pathfinder community. On the one hand, pretty much anybody that you ask directly will acknowledge that everybody's preferences are okay and everyone should play the way that's fun for them. Yet when a discussion comes up about a topic on which someone has a preference the topic gets handled in a way that displays signs of "shoulds & oughts". It's as though people know that "preferences are okay" is a good belief to have, but don't realize that it's possible to (completely earnestly!) acknowledge that stance and yet still harbor beliefs that are contrary to it. Simply knowing that "preferences are okay" is a good belief to have does not bring all of your related beliefs into congruence with it. That takes far more work; work which it often seems like a good deal of the Pathfinder community hasn't done, and doesn't even know needs doing.
peeps
given all the paizo employees
who I have seen advocating the training of velociraptors as babysitters
is there any reason that we have to limit ourselves to that
instead of say
letting them attend to our elders as well?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Even as a kid Superman bugged me. Ok, he's really unbelievably strong. Doesn't matter. You can't lift up a building by putting your hand under the corner. That corner of the building would just tear off or crumble.
I'll high-five you on that one. That's always bugged me when super-strength is handled like that.
But you know what? Most superhero stories are happening in THIS universe. They're not happening in a completely made-up world, they're saying "This happened on Earth." Thus, they are (supposedly) bound to how Earth works (or how the author understands Earth to work at the time). Thus, holding them to that standard is a matter of... wait for it... internal consistency. ;)
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Uh... I'm not entirely convinced you know what "internally consistent" means. It just means that a given rule within the system applies in the same manner in every applicable circumstance. For example, Pathfinder's HP/damage system functions in the same way for every creature, therefore it's internally consistent, regardless of how well or poorly it models reality. Conversely, if Pathfinder instead had a very realistic injury mechanic but it was applied differently to different creatures with no discernable reason for the difference, then that would be a failure of internal consistency, irrespective of its realism. ...
Yes, I know what it means.
Here is the system set-up (what ever that may be). It is implied (though usually not stated) if system alterations are not made, it as we expect the Real World to function.Inertia works. Momentum works. Kinetic energy works. Breaking stress works. Chemical reactions work.
Yes, the hit point system is consistently applied to all creatures (or nearly so). But that hit point system creates an inconsistency with the lack of changes to inertia, momentum, kinetic energy, and breaking stress when applied to someone with a lot of experience jumping off a cliff.
Having fought more creatures does not, for me, make sense as a reason those physical laws cease to work the same for that person and his gear.
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Anyway, what you appear to be talking about is that you prefer to have some kind of "justification" for anything that's not "realistic", and you have a narrow list of things that you'll accept as sufficient justification. (That list seems to include "magic", "divine aid", and "I'm used to it"; but does not include "this subgenre has different upper limits of nonmagical prowess than reality does".)
Nope there are a pretty damn wide array of things you could use to 'justify' something or alter the system set-up so that it is 'realistic' within that system. I only gave a few examples, I didn't say those were the only things that would work. My issue is with the insistence that there is and should be nothing. It causes problems in my head.
'Different upper limits of prowess.' I'm fine with that. More expertise, skill, ability, or experience doesn't change the physical rules of the universe.With regard to your spoiler. I think I've been pretty clear that those exceedingly 'unrealistic' things are jarring to me (and others like me). That it is very obviously my personal preference. It is a system flaw to my personal point of view (but not such a major one that I will stop playing the game).
I never said anything even remotely close to it being a flaw for others that enjoy those things. I am perfectly well aware that some people greatly prefer it like that. They do not want a system to be set up such that those 'fantastical' things make sense. Maybe then it wouldn't seem as 'fantastical' to them. I don't really know.
Yet again, the OP asked.
... "why do Martial characters in a fantasy rpg have to adhere to realism?" ...
I am answering that 'why' for my point of view.
My issue is with the insistence that there is and should be nothing. It causes problems in my head.
it's almost like this was left open for the player's to decide. *hint hint: this applies in both directions i'm still not on a side.*
in my badass system, i literally gave the reason was because they were that badass. there was no magic, they just had something that made them extremely awesome at something.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It is a system flaw to my personal point of view
My point is that this is an oxymoron.
That's why people react to you stating that there's something wrong with XYZ and you find yourself having to repeat the "just me personally" bit: there can't be something wrong with the system to just you personally, so when you say both, only one gets believed.
If you had just said "I prefer if everything remains realistic unless given a clear and specific exception", then you wouldn't have gotten the replies you did. Since you instead said "If things that aren't given a clear exception don't remain realistic, then the system is flawed and illogical and inconsistent and nonsensical... but, you know, just personally", well, people looked at the content instead of the disclaimer.
So, again: there's no such thing as "the system is flawed to me personally". Pick which one you want to stand by and say only that.
Thank you for doing so, it had never occurred to me that there were people out there who didn't believe that there was fundamental change in the bodies and souls of those who leveled up.
It's been an enlightening conversation.
wait i swore i had a conversation with you on HP and how I said it wasn't the person getting tougher, it was him getting better at dealing with hits. maybe it was someone else, but the whole conversation revolved around the fact that nothing suggests that the person in question must get harder to actually kill.
yeah it was a weird argument, i was explaining people surviving falls and what not as simply insane skill or luck, could just as easily be doable at those levels than getting tougher muscles and bones.
edit: see i explained the coup failing to kill him as dumb luck, the axe was held improperly and onyl did minor physical damage. etc. :P or as skill, he wears his armor and adjusts in such ways that make him hard to effectively hurt even while unconscious.