What spells should martials be able to do?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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I've heard that several spells should just be things Martials should be capable of doing at high-enough levels, and I want to see some of the spells in question. Just my curiosity, I'm not trying to start any fights, and try to keep it ON TOPIC (I've seen to many threads like this derailed, so please be polite).


Most Martial classes cannot use magic and as such cannot cast spells regardless of level.

Monks get some Ki abilities that are similar to spells...

Some spells can be mimicked by simply having high skills... For example the Paladin Spell that grants you a +10 bonus on a Knowledge: Monster Lore check... Which can be replicated (and made permanent) by simply getting the skill to 10.

But other than that... The only spells Martials should get really are items that they earn/purchase/make through game play.


Off the top of my head...

Spider Climb, Haste, Antimagic Field, Mind Blank, Nondetection and other divination-fooling effects, AoE effects, Heroism and other buff spells... Lots of things.

-Matt


Assuming proper refluff:

Bladed Dash.

Blur/Displacement.

Jump.

Spider Climb.

Touch Of The Sea.

Force Hook Charge.

Keep Watch.

These are just some that spring to mind, there are a great many others.

Path of War's maneuver system has a lot of options that allow for uniquely capable martial characters. It's available for perusal on PFSRD and well worth a read. ☺


"Expert-types" like Rogues should be able to Spider Climb, become Invisible, Alter Self or some other disguise-enabling spell, Nondetection, certainly. "Warrior-types" like Fighters should get Bladed Dash, at least, and ideally some kind of self-heal and self-buff. Really, I'd be okay with them being able to attack more than one target at a time without wasting a pile of Feats on getting Whirlwind Attack. All that's just off the top of my head.


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Kudaku wrote:

Assuming proper refluff:

Bladed Dash.

Blur/Displacement.

Jump.

Spider Climb.

Touch Of The Sea.

Force Hook Charge.

Keep Watch.

These are just some that spring to mind, there are a great many others.

Path of War's maneuver system has a lot of options that allow for uniquely capable martial. It's available for perusal on PFSRD and we'll worth a read. ☺

☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺

=D


Oh, right. Jump. Alarm and Expeditious Retreat should also be on someone's ability list.


I'll add: Burst of speed,Charm person,Endure elements, comprehend languages, detect thoughts,Knock, Prot. from alignment,suggestion,
Shout,Fear(also cause fear),and break enchantment.
I would have listed more but I didn't want to overload the post.


Larkspire wrote:

I'll add: Burst of speed,Charm person,Endure elements, comprehend languages, detect thoughts,Knock, Prot. from alignment,suggestion,

Shout,Fear(also cause fear),and break enchantment.
I would have listed more but I didn't want to overload the post.

Do eeet.

Do it.

Sovereign Court

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Gate obviously so I can summon my arsenal of weapons.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Eltacolibre wrote:
Gate obviously so I can summon my arsenal of weapons.

Also featured in that clip: Greater Create Demiplane and Planeshift.


Petty Alchemy wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
Gate obviously so I can summon my arsenal of weapons.
Also featured in that clip: Greater Create Demiplane and Planeshift.

EA, proving once and for all that drills make the best swords... I mean nukes.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
Gate obviously so I can summon my arsenal of weapons.
Also featured in that clip: Greater Create Demiplane and Planeshift.
EA, proving once and for all that drills make the best swords... I mean nukes.

I thought it was Gurren Lagann that proved that.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
Gate obviously so I can summon my arsenal of weapons.
Also featured in that clip: Greater Create Demiplane and Planeshift.
EA, proving once and for all that drills make the best swords... I mean nukes.
I thought it was Gurren Lagann that proved that.

Really not a Nuke at that stage in the show [Later on though...]

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I thought about Gilgamesh a bit more and maybe he just has better feats.

Improved Sunder -> Greater Sunder -> ??? -> Planetary Sunder.


No, he had a collection of Major Artifacts...


Kudaku wrote:

Assuming proper refluff:

Bladed Dash.

Blur/Displacement.

Jump.

Spider Climb.

Touch Of The Sea.

Force Hook Charge.

Keep Watch.

These are just some that spring to mind, there are a great many others.

Path of War's maneuver system has a lot of options that allow for uniquely capable martial characters. It's available for perusal on PFSRD and well worth a read. ☺

Path of War has a lot of problems though. The Warlord simply has too many +numbers to be remotely fair. Scarlet Throne can 1-shot the Tarrasque by level 13 or so. Silver Crane makes the party 100% immune to HP attrition. If you allow Path of War, prepare to give the character roughly a +2-4 level adjustment.

Sovereign Court

Petty Alchemy wrote:

I thought about Gilgamesh a bit more and maybe he just has better feats.

Improved Sunder -> Greater Sunder -> ??? -> Planetary Sunder.

In lore wise tho...those characters in fate stay night series actually do have a combination of powerful magic items and Magic. Them creating their own planes, summoning fortress and other spells like abilities are fairly common. They also inherit more powers depending on where they are summoned, most of the European heroes get a massive boost in Europe for example.

But anyway, Spell like abilities might just be the best way to go about it, so casters keep their sticks of having a long list of spells but martials do get spell like abilities. Like being able to run on walls shouldn't require acrobatic checks of 50...seriously, I'm a level 12 fighter, just let me do it.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I know, I'm kidding. They're sustained by a caster's mana, which they also draw upon for their obviously magical abilities.

Planetary Sunder would be a cool feat though. Feat chains usually just give you better numbers, but I'd like higher level options that expand the scale/options.


I've always loved the idea of Primal Scream on a barbarian.


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None


erik542 wrote:
Kudaku wrote:

Assuming proper refluff:

Bladed Dash.

Blur/Displacement.

Jump.

Spider Climb.

Touch Of The Sea.

Force Hook Charge.

Keep Watch.

These are just some that spring to mind, there are a great many others.

Path of War's maneuver system has a lot of options that allow for uniquely capable martial characters. It's available for perusal on PFSRD and well worth a read. ☺

Path of War has a lot of problems though. The Warlord simply has too many +numbers to be remotely fair. Scarlet Throne can 1-shot the Tarrasque by level 13 or so. Silver Crane makes the party 100% immune to HP attrition. If you allow Path of War, prepare to give the character roughly a +2-4 level adjustment.

I really don't consider Silver Crane making the party 'immune to HP attrition' an issue - CLW wands does essentially the same by level 2, and much faster than Silver Crane. SC also requires a fair investment, whereas the cost of CLW wands quickly stop being an issue.

I can't comment on Scarlet Throne since I've yet to use it, but my 7th level warlord is sitting at +15 and the party Magus is at +12, about the gap I'd expect between a full BAB and a medium BAB class. With Encouraging Roar and Black Blade active they're neck and neck at +17/+16. The one gap we've noticed is that the warlord relies on Primal Warrior Stance for +7 average damage with no attack penalty while the magus has to use power attack for -2 TH/+6 damage, but that discrepancy comes from Primal Fury - it's not a warlord-specific issue.


Kudaku wrote:
erik542 wrote:
Kudaku wrote:

Assuming proper refluff:

Bladed Dash.

Blur/Displacement.

Jump.

Spider Climb.

Touch Of The Sea.

Force Hook Charge.

Keep Watch.

These are just some that spring to mind, there are a great many others.

Path of War's maneuver system has a lot of options that allow for uniquely capable martial characters. It's available for perusal on PFSRD and well worth a read. ☺

Path of War has a lot of problems though. The Warlord simply has too many +numbers to be remotely fair. Scarlet Throne can 1-shot the Tarrasque by level 13 or so. Silver Crane makes the party 100% immune to HP attrition. If you allow Path of War, prepare to give the character roughly a +2-4 level adjustment.

I really don't consider Silver Crane making the party 'immune to HP attrition' an issue - CLW wands does essentially the same by level 2, and much faster than Silver Crane. SC also requires a fair investment, whereas the cost of CLW wands quickly stop being an issue.

I can't comment on Scarlet Throne since I've yet to use it, but my 7th level warlord is sitting at +15 and the party Magus is at +12, about the gap I'd expect between a full BAB and a medium BAB class. With Encouraging Roar and Black Blade active they're neck and neck at +17/+16. The one gap we've noticed is that the warlord relies on Primal Warrior Stance for +7 average damage with no attack penalty while the magus has to use power attack for -2 TH/+6 damage, but that discrepancy comes from Primal Fury - it's not a warlord-specific issue.

Trying looking at the CHA scaling on the Warlord.


Okay... I see a minor shared bonus to flanking and Aid Another, Gambits that lock you out of Boosts and Counters, circumstantial save bonuses via Presences, and a (significantly) less powerful version of Divine Grace on a class with two weak saves. None of these seem problematic. While charisma is certainly an attractive stat for a Warlord, I don't think he has more incentive to invest in it than, for example, a paladin.

How about you take the time to type out your argument rather than just leaving breadcrumbs? :)

Feel free to PM me or take it to the PoW feedback thread if you don't want to derail this one.


I'd say it depends on the spellcasting class they multiclass into.


Vagabond? wrote:
Larkspire wrote:

I'll add: Burst of speed,Charm person,Endure elements, comprehend languages, detect thoughts,Knock, Prot. from alignment,suggestion,

Shout,Fear(also cause fear),and break enchantment.
I would have listed more but I didn't want to overload the post.

Do eeet.

Do it.

here's a few more: Detect, Poison, detect Magic (most of the detect spells seem reasonable). Ant haul, Call animal, feather step. keen senses, scent trail, bloody claws, Whispering wind, tireless pursuit, Burst bonds, bloodhound, castigate, confess, perceive clues, honeyed tongue, coordinated effort, Righteous Vigor, cowards lament, and resounding blow.

Sczarni

Earthquake please for barbarians and the like. Locate Object/creature and scry effects for high sense motive/track heroes.


So, effects that are like spells that it would make sense for a martial to be able to pick up, either through Stamina investment or another mechanics or always. Hmmmmmm. Here's a maybe list from the CRB.


  • Aid (hell, I think some drugs mimic this effect perfectly)
  • Cause Fear (why is really scaring someone magic only?)
  • Charm Person (think of the Bene Gesserit and their Voice)
  • Command (Bene Gesserit again)
  • Deathwatch (combination keen sight plus medical knowledge, not a stretch at all)
  • Detect Magic (like passive UMD, magic just tingles on your senses)
  • Detect Poison (hyper keen sense of smell or other senses, like Daredevil)
  • Endure Elements (very small amounts of fire or cold resist would work too)
  • Expeditious Retreat (it's just faster footwork / reactions, not a big deal)
  • False Life (knowing how to turn into/away from an attack at the right moment = less chance of it hurting as bad)
  • Find Traps (rogues do this, it's not magic!)
  • Haste (like with Expeditious Retreat, but more intense / shorter lasting)
  • Heroism (maybe self only, but why should morale bonuses only come from magic?)
  • Hypnotism (we have hypnotists in real life that are low-level but somewhat impressive in what they can do)
  • Jump (brief burst of intense muscle power from adrenaline)
  • Keen Edge (it's just sharpening an edge, no biggie)
  • Rage (HULK SMASH!)
  • Spider Climb (when using both your hands, you're just a really really good climber)
  • Suggestion (the fair ladies of Dune once more)
  • Ventriloquism (it's already a mundane 'trick' some people can do)
  • Lastly, any of the +4 enhancement bonus to an ability score spells, like Eagle's Splendor or Bull's Strength (Master Craftsman + Craft Wondrous Item lets skill ranks make permanent items of this already)

I also think that, with some investment in proper reagents and/or equipment, spells like Obscuring Mist or Flame Arrow or Gentle Repose could be mimiced more or less perfectly as non-magical spell-like effects. Basically, most things that don't involve creating or manipulating energy sources, altering or summoning matter, working with spiritual energy in drastic ways such as raising the dead, or long-distance/wide-area mind-influencing effects should be on the table. Maybe it takes 10 times as long to do. Maybe it's touch range only or is language dependent. Maybe it sucks up Stamina points really fast. It'd still be reasonable to see some of these as options.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Blackvial wrote:
None

bruh, you can't just do that to us.


Freedom of Movement, why has no-one else said this???


alexd1976 wrote:
Freedom of Movement, why has no-one else said this???

Because I only felt like going up to level 3 spells. =)

Sczarni

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This discussion makes me want to design a heroic skill unlock system in which having certain ranks in one or two (or even three) skills allows the character to use an Ex verson of a spell.

Freedom of Movement
Prerequisite: Scape Artist 11 ranks, Sleight of Hand 11 ranks
Benefit: You may permanently act as if under the effect of the Freedom of Movement spell. This effect is an extraordinary ability and as such is immune to dispell effects.

This, added to Path of War will truly allow for fantastic "mundanes".


Kudaku wrote:

Assuming proper refluff:

Bladed Dash.

Blur/Displacement.

Jump.

Spider Climb.

Touch Of The Sea.

Force Hook Charge.

Keep Watch.

These are just some that spring to mind, there are a great many others.

Path of War's maneuver system has a lot of options that allow for uniquely capable martial characters. It's available for perusal on PFSRD and well worth a read. ☺

A lot of good suggestion here. I don't know how to begin to refluff them, or how to add them into the classes and make them balanced, but yes this would be a generally idea.

I think a better idea than some of these spells is that X number of times per day you can move and make a full attack. That's the main use of force hook charge that I've seen, to basically get you adjacent to an enemy using spell combat to cast the spell first and then get the rest of your full attack on the enemy.

Bladed dash is basically a replacement for Spring Attack. Perhaps just making it so that you don't have to take 2 feats that don't really have much to do with the effect of Spring Attack would be best. Or just giving every martial* character spring attack for free.

*Martial meaning full BAB, rogues, or monks. I think that's pretty much every martial. Alternatively, anyone with 4th level spell casting or less.

Personally, I don't think martials really need help in the department that allows them to deal more damage more effectively though. It's really the matter of needing casters to do so many things. Like fight under water effectively. Sure, it doesn't make much sense for someone to be able to breath underwater without magic, but it also sucks as a player to have to rely on the wizard to craft a potion or cast a spell on you to do so. I think what martial characters need most is replacement for many of the utility spells that exist in the game.

Spider Climb, Touch of the Sea, Keep Watch are three great examples of utility spells that martials should be able to emulate. Blur and displacement are another thing, not offensively powerful, but better than a lot of AC adding items. Excepting low levels where it is easy for AC to be higher than BAB +strength/dex, you just can't count on the first attack missing most of the time. AC it's mostly useful at preventing iterative attacks. But it would be nice if martials could layer both AC and miss chance, using blur or displacement like abilities. Hell, right now my Arcane Bloodrager is my favorite martial because being able to enter rage and get to choose between Haste, Displacement, Blur and Energy Resistance as effects on my character just from taking a free action is incredible! Other martial characters need something like that.


Spells, SPL, or Su that martials would do well to get some version of:

fast healing

moment of prescience

see invisibility / scent / blind sight / life sense / x-ray vision

contingent action

foresight

augury

legend lore

~~
martials also need some way of to move and full attack. Ultimately a better question might be what shouldn't martials get, ie what are the abilities that should remain uniquely(or be vastly superior) in the wheelhouse of wizards and clerics?

For example clerics really can't teleport very well, they get planeshift early, and have word of recall, but need to stretch into domains for dimensional door, teleport.


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Dance of 100/1000 cuts REALLY should have been a combat feat... not a freaking spell...


Fighter should had got a passive heroism instead of bravery. Other than that, I think martial are fine. What we need is better magical equipments for martial, not class features. +5 bonus for spell resistance 19 is a joke... Dancing and flying weapon would be able to attack on their own without the character wielding. If they are on the ground, they should as fly as you command them to. Dispel shouldn't be like spell storing, should
just be dispel. You hit or touch something, they dispel. It's okay if we have to adjust the bonus to higher, that's how it should be.


1/2 casting hasn't broken any classes. Rogue could use a lift. I mean, seriously, a 1st level Rogue with optimized stealth could be less stealthy than a 1st level Sorcerer with Vanish.

Most caster effects should be duplicatable. Avoid Conjuration and Evocation, as well as Transmutation shapechanging effects as well as effects that turn lead into gold or whatever. Abjuration effects are mostly safe, Transmutation effects that enhance without shape changing. Enchantment is also good. Illusion and Necromancy are iffy, but if you select the spells that don't create grand 500-foot illusions and raise the dead, you'll be fine. As an exception to "avoid Conjuration", toss in some curing and Restoration, because that's part of what's expected of any party.


I was actually thinking about this a couple days ago, and think these would work as SLA's with CL being treated as though it were 1 in most cases and HD in certain others:

Ant Haul - 1/day with duration 1 round/level with a range of personal.

Anticipate Peril - This should just be a class feature that's always on for all martial characters, granting a scaling initiative bonus. I don't know why anyone would ever waste a spell slot on this, or why it would be considered magical. Putting it to good use in-the-moment requires meta-knowledge that I dislike and even then it's not at all worth giving up another 1st level spell for.

Cause Fear - 1/day per 4 ranks in Intimidate. Save is treated as 10 + your ranks in Intimidate + your Charisma modifier.

Charm Person - 1/day per 4 ranks in Diplomacy. Save is treated as 10 + your ranks in Diplomacy + your Charisma modifier.

Delusional Pride - 1/day per 2 ranks in Diplomacy AND Sense Motive (4 ranks total required per daily use). Save is treated as 10 + your ranks in Sense Motive + your Charisma modifier.

Disguise Weapon - 1/day per 4 ranks in an appropriate Craft. Casting time increased to 1 round per minute of duration you want it to last.

Jump - 1/day per 4 ranks in Acrobatics. Range personal. Duration 1 round/level.

Keep Watch - 1/month per Constitution modifier, minimum 0. Range personal.

Lock Gaze - 1/day per Charisma modifier, minimum 0. Save is treated as 10 + your HD + your Charisma modifier.

Memorize Page - 1/day per 4 ranks in Linguistics.

Memory Lapse - 1/day per 4 ranks in Bluff.

Moment of Greatness - 1/day. All classes should have this, because this is what heroes do. There's nothing magical about it.

Pattern Recognition - 1/day per 4 ranks in Perception. Change the insight bonus to be tied to 1/2 your HD instead of CL.

Peasant Armaments - 1/day per 4 ranks in Profession: Soldier or an appropriate Craft. Casting time increased to 1 round per object and duration increased to 10 minutes.

Reinforce Armaments - 1/day per 4 ranks in Profession: Soldier or an appropriate Craft. Casting time increased to 1 round per minute of duration you want it to last.

Sleep - 1/day per 4 ranks in Profession: Barrister. Save is treated as 10 + your ranks in Profession: Barrister.

Theft Ward - 1/day. All characters should be able to do this.

True Strike - 1/day. All characters should be able to do this.

Unprepared Combatant - 1/day per 4 ranks in Bluff. Save is treated as 10 + your ranks in Bluff + your Charisma modifier.

Ventriloquism - 1/day per 2 ranks in Disguise AND Linguistics (4 ranks total required per daily use). Save is treated as 10 + your ranks in Disguise + your ranks in Linguistics.

Youthful Appearance - 1/day per 4 ranks in Disguise. Casting time increased to 1 round per minute of duration you want it to last.

Well, those are the 1st level Wizard spells that jump out at me. It's getting late so I'll save the Cleric and Druid lists for later. Then on to 2nd level? :P


Miracle.

...oh wait, I'm in a thread about Wish-ful thinking.

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