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TARKIN
The Jedi are extinct, their fire has
gone out of the universe. You, my
friend, are all that's left of their
religion.
...and the Emperor. And Yoda.
Did Tarkin really not have a good grasp on what the Force is?| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, he wasn't worried about the exhaust port; maybe he just wasn't all that smart.
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It's a movie; what other sort of logic would it possibly require?
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But that's just a style of movie. Luke was taking on multiple well trained, genetically superior, well armed and armored stormtroopers in the same time - and winning - in "The New Hope" and nobody scoffed at that.
There's every reason that this happened in new hope. They were ordered to let them escape so that the princess would lead them back to the rebel base, the location of which they couldn't torture out of them.
"They let us go, that's the only way to explain the ease of our escape.-Leia
I'm pretty sure the "they let us go" part referred to the Death Star not sending more TIE fighters after the Falcon once it took off. Inside the Death Star itself, the characters were very close to getting killed a lot of times. It also makes sense to me that not every storm stopper has to know about Vader's schemes, and that killing Luke when he was shooting at them doesn't actually stop the Falcon from getting away.
So, I still believe Luke won a gun fight against like 6 actual soldiers, and in his first day using a blaster, too.
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and in his first day using a blaster, too.
but... but.. I thought he was shooting Womp Rats in his spare time every day?
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But that's just a style of movie. Luke was taking on multiple well trained, genetically superior, well armed and armored stormtroopers in the same time - and winning - in "The New Hope" and nobody scoffed at that.
There's every reason that this happened in new hope. They were ordered to let them escape so that the princess would lead them back to the rebel base, the location of which they couldn't torture out of them.
"They let us go, that's the only way to explain the ease of our escape.-Leia
I'm pretty sure the "they let us go" part referred to the Death Star not sending more TIE fighters after the Falcon once it took off. Inside the Death Star itself, the characters were very close to getting killed a lot of times. It also makes sense to me that not every storm stopper has to know about Vader's schemes, and that killing Luke when he was shooting at them doesn't actually stop the Falcon from getting away.
So, I still believe Luke won a gun fight against like 6 actual soldiers, and in his first day using a blaster, too.
Actually Kenobi himself lauds the precision, proffessionalism and superb training that Stormtroppers receive. Aside from the fact that the E-11 blaster rifle is terribly inaccurate, they are considered the empire's elite troops. They were obviously told that they have to let them go but make them work for it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Huh. reading through here I'm actually rather shocked that people see Rey as a Mary Sue. I guess she outdoes Luke on some things (like managing the lightsaber pulling trick without training) but I see this merely as an escalation, sort of like a power creep - they don't want to just retrace the story of the young plucky hero slowly training to be a Jedi in the exact same way as the original story, so they speed the process along.
But I didn't see the world revolving around her, her mysterious past is completely in-keeping with the family drama style of the series, and her mechnical skills remind me of Luke's skills as a pilot.
Luke does the lightsaber pulling trick without training!
He has one lesson from Obi-Wan--block attacks with the lightsaber.
Old Ben bites it, Luke goes to Hoth, and somehow knows how to do the pulling trick.
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As far as I can tell, there is no litmus test that makes Rey a Mary Sue that doesn't also make Luke one.
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As far as I can tell, there is no litmus test that makes Rey a Mary Sue that doesn't also make Luke one.
... which is a sign that the litmus tests are accurate.
Our friend "Luke S." is a type specimen of an overpowered author avatar.
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and in his first day using a blaster, too.but... but.. I thought he was shooting Womp Rats in his spare time every day?
I always assumed he made those shot with some weapon the speeder was equipped with. You know, because he talks about it in the context of using the weapon systems of X-wings.
Luke does the lightsaber pulling trick without training!
He has one lesson from Obi-Wan--block attacks with the lightsaber.
Old Ben bites it, Luke goes to Hoth, and somehow knows how to do the pulling trick.
It seems logical that he had a *bit* more than that - it's unclear exactly how long Obi One and Luke have been traveling in the Falcon before they arrived to the Death Star. any number of lessons could have (and likely did) happen. Plus ghost Obi One has been whispering in his year, and that tutelage was more mystical then practical. Some sort of intuitive knowledge was unlocked in Luke when Obi One talked to him. Also, he had a long period of time to experiment on his own between ANH and ESK.Rey didn't have any chance to get any training from any Jedi, and in fact began using the force in the same day as the one where she force grabbed that sword (overcoming the wimpy Kylo Ren as she did). That's an order of magnitude more impressive.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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As to Rey's accuracy, IIRC she fights one guy and misses a few times before hitting.
Then she fights either one or two guys (I forget), who she hits on he first go.
Then Kylo Ren shows up, and she misses him a whole bunch (some shots he deflects, but several don't even come close to hitting him).
A two-guy hitting streak is not what I'd call sharpshooter accuracy.
TARKIN
The Jedi are extinct, their fire has
gone out of the universe. You, my
friend, are all that's left of their
religion.
...and the Emperor. And Yoda.
Did Tarkin really not have a good grasp on what the Force is?Yoda was assumed dead and Shreev Palpatine was not know to be a force user and he was not a Jedi anyway.
It's amazing how many of thsee problems only come up if you specifically interpret them as plot holes.
Vader seemkng to be working under Tarkin in ANH and running the show in ESB... Well, duh, he got promoted because Tarkin got a bad case of being dead.
Tarkin not knowing that Yoda was still alive. Well, the little Muppet was in hiding for cripe's sake.
Etc...
So, none of his troops tell him that Yoda escaped, did not die during order 66? Why would he be assumed dead? He went to Coruscant and killed troopers there outside the Temple, after order 66 was given.
How does one get a promotion from being the 2nd guy in the Empire, to reporting to a Fleet Admiral, then back to what, exactly?
These aren't plot holes in ANH. They only became plot holes after Lucas messed with the story.
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That the Stormtrooper legions started as clone troopers wasn't known until the prequels, and I'm fairly certain the Empire switched to conscription and such be the time of the the Galactic Civil War anyway.But that's just a style of movie. Luke was taking on multiple well trained, genetically superior, well armed and armored stormtroopers in the same time - and winning - in "The New Hope" and nobody scoffed at that.
There's every reason that this happened in new hope. They were ordered to let them escape so that the princess would lead them back to the rebel base, the location of which they couldn't torture out of them.
"They let us go, that's the only way to explain the ease of our escape.-Leia
I'm pretty sure the "they let us go" part referred to the Death Star not sending more TIE fighters after the Falcon once it took off. Inside the Death Star itself, the characters were very close to getting killed a lot of times. It also makes sense to me that not every storm stopper has to know about Vader's schemes, and that killing Luke when he was shooting at them doesn't actually stop the Falcon from getting away.
So, I still believe Luke won a gun fight against like 6 actual soldiers, and in his first day using a blaster, too.
Actually Kenobi himself lauds the precision, proffessionalism and superb training that Stormtroppers receive. Aside from the fact that the E-11 blaster rifle is terribly inaccurate, they are considered the empire's elite troops. They were obviously told that they have to let them go but make them work for it.
It would be very silly to think otherwise. After all clones age twice as fast as normal humans. They would all be like 60 by the time of ANH.
Plus the clone wars are considered as horrible by the galaxy.|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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and in his first day using a blaster, too.but... but.. I thought he was shooting Womp Rats in his spare time every day?I always assumed he made those shot with some weapon the speeder was equipped with. You know, because he talks about it in the context of using the weapon systems of X-wings.
It seems logical that he had a *bit* more than that - it's unclear exactly how long Obi One and Luke have been traveling in the Falcon before they arrived to the Death Star. any number of lessons could have (and likely did) happen. Plus ghost Obi One has been whispering in his year, and that tutelage was more mystical then practical. Some sort of intuitive knowledge was unlocked in Luke when Obi One talked to him. Also, he had a long period of time to experiment on his own between ANH and ESK.Rey didn't have any chance to get any training from any Jedi, and in fact began using the force in the same day as the one where she force grabbed that sword (overcoming the wimpy Kylo Ren as she did). That's an order of magnitude more impressive.Luke does the lightsaber pulling trick without training!
He has one lesson from Obi-Wan--block attacks with the lightsaber.
Old Ben bites it, Luke goes to Hoth, and somehow knows how to do the pulling trick.
I don't know. Solo comes out of the cockpit and says "hey, we told you we'd lose the imperials!" Unless there was a protracted hyperspace chase off screen, that implies it happened pretty soon after they blasted off from Tattoine. Plus, Luke is asking Noob questions. Then we go straight from that scene into the arrival at Alderaan.
And while it's possible Luke got ghost training between the destruction of the Death Star and the battle of Hoth, that's never established in the films. In fact, when he sees the ghost of Obi-Wan again on the surface of Hoth, he seems genuinely surprised--"Ben? Dagobah? Ben! Ben!"
Rey had whispers from Obi-Wan too, in her Force vision. He gave her the "first steps into a larger world" speech, so ghost intuition is a possibility there as well.
Plus, she just brain-drained Kylo Ren. If she can learn about his deepest fears, it makes sense to me she might have learned a smattering of Force training too.
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While it might have been the first day that Luke used a blaster, it was not the first day he would have used a ranged weapon. Luke had a 6-2Aug2 hunting rifle with him when the Tusken Raiders attacked him.
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YES they have.
When they attacked Tantive IV they wiped the rebels out easily, suffering minimal losses.
In the death star, they were ordered to make their escape difficult but to let them. Leia figured it out.
They were VERY efficient when it came to destroying Echo base.
In Cloud City, they had to let Luke pass so that he could face Vader. So they were suddenly missing things.
They were also under orders on Endor, when they had to play stupid in order to lure in the rebels. If not for a timely help from the Ewoks, the rebels would have been creamed.
To me a Mary Sue is any female protagonist written by Joss Whedon.
Joss Whedon did not create Buffy the Vampire Slayer, he redeemed her from the bimbo that was created in the movie of the same name.
But then again in the fantasy crowd any female character who can function just as well as a male action lead is by definition a "Mary Sue".
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To me a Mary Sue is any female protagonist written by Joss Whedon.Joss Whedon did not create Buffy the Vampire Slayer, he redeemed her from the bimbo that was created in the movie of the same name.
You mean the one he wrote?
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But then again in the fantasy crowd any female character who can function just as well as a male action lead is by definition a "Mary Sue".
Not quite.
* - Rey is able to do things with the force that took Luke months, if not years, of training. For example the mind trick she did on her Stormtrooper guard.
* - She can speak Wookie, despite never having been off of Jakka since she was dropped off there.
* - She was a very competent pilot of the Millennium Falcon, but it is extremely unlikely that she ever flew a YT-1300 freighter.
So yes, for the reasons in the spoiler, Rey does qualify as a "Mary Sue". And not just because of sexism.
The Jeff: Lemark is a thing in starwars.
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So let's say that ...
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On second viewing I'm fairly sure Han knows who Rey really is. I imagine that may mean Leia does too. I'm also pretty sure, based on their reactions, she isn't their daughter.
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TARKIN
The Jedi are extinct, their fire has
gone out of the universe. You, my
friend, are all that's left of their
religion.
...and the Emperor. And Yoda.
Did Tarkin really not have a good grasp on what the Force is?
I don't think he'd expect him to be dead via old age, but rather because Vader and the empire had been hunting jedi.
But yes, for a society with extremely advanced prosthetic limbs, you would expect that 70 y/o is not an uncommon age to reach. Heck, 150 to 200 might actually be normal.
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To me a Mary Sue is any female protagonist written by Joss Whedon.Joss Whedon did not create Buffy the Vampire Slayer, he redeemed her from the bimbo that was created in the movie of the same name.
But then again in the fantasy crowd any female character who can function just as well as a male action lead is by definition a "Mary Sue".
Buffy the Vampire Slayer (1992)
Only person in the writing credits is Joss Whedon.
I'm pretty sure the "they let us go" part referred to the Death Star not sending more TIE fighters after the Falcon once it took off.
The series is pretty explicit about something going to warp being pretty much gone. Once they're out of the station and hit the hyperdrive thats it, home base. So this isn't it.
You seem to have a habbit of finding the one plothole in every movie that.. isn't a plothole, at all. They explained it at least three times here. Once with vader saying he has plans for her, once with Leia lamp-shading it, and then with the deathstar actually showing up at the base they've been looking for the entire time.
Inside the Death Star itself, the characters were very close to getting killed a lot of times. It also makes sense to me that not every storm stopper has to know about Vader's schemes, and that killing Luke when he was shooting at them doesn't actually stop the Falcon from getting away.
Stormtrooper 1: "Hey, can we kill this guy or not? Is he the pilot? Or is the other guy? Or the wookie?"
Stormtrooper 2: "How the hell would I know. Dammit, we better let him live"Stormtrooper 1: "So what, we let him kill us?
Stormtrooper 2: "As opposed to vader NOT killing you?
Sotrmtrooper 1: "Gulp! Tell my wife i said i love her!"
You can't just pick something that makese sense to you, and then have that as an internal contradiction to the movie.
To me a Mary Sue is any female protagonist written by Joss Whedon.Joss Whedon did not create Buffy the Vampire Slayer, he redeemed her from the bimbo that was created in the movie of the same name.
But then again in the fantasy crowd any female character who can function just as well as a male action lead is by definition a "Mary Sue".
Buffy the Vampire Slayer (1992)
Only person in the writing credits is Joss Whedon.
While he did the initial writing for the movie, many paws were put on it between his manuscript and final execution, until what was shot, was very different from what was written. He did not have the creative control that he would have when he made the series.
The Dark Horse graphic novel "The Origin" is what the movie would have been if Whedon's writing had actually been executed.
There are many major differences between the two incarnations, I'd encourage you to look it up on wikipedia rather than us belaboring the point here which is a bit off topic.
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** spoiler omitted **[/spoiler]
play a country music record backwards
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I'm pretty sure the "they let us go" part referred to the Death Star not sending more TIE fighters after the Falcon once it took off.The series is pretty explicit about something going to warp being pretty much gone. Once they're out of the station and hit the hyperdrive thats it, home base. So this isn't it.
You seem to have a habbit of finding the one plothole in every movie that.. isn't a plothole, at all. They explained it at least three times here. Once with vader saying he has plans for her, once with Leia lamp-shading it, and then with the deathstar actually showing up at the base they've been looking for the entire time.
Inside the Death Star itself, the characters were very close to getting killed a lot of times. It also makes sense to me that not every storm stopper has to know about Vader's schemes, and that killing Luke when he was shooting at them doesn't actually stop the Falcon from getting away.Stormtrooper 1: "Hey, can we kill this guy or not? Is he the pilot? Or is the other guy? Or the wookie?"
Stormtrooper 2: "How the hell would I know. Dammit, we better let him live"
Stormtrooper 1: "So what, we let him kill us?
Stormtrooper 2: "As opposed to vader NOT killing you?
Sotrmtrooper 1: "Gulp! Tell my wife i said i love her!"You can't just pick something that makese sense to you, and then have that as an internal contradiction to the movie.
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** spoiler omitted **[/spoiler]play a country music record backwards
HEY! My cup 's full again.
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This "Mary/Gary Sue/Stu" debate is sooooo boring!
How about we talk about something more interesting.
For example, do you think the Knights of Ren are a new tradition or a rediscovered lost Force tradition.
And maybe a dumb question, but are they named after Allo Ren or the other way around?
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and in his first day using a blaster, too.but... but.. I thought he was shooting Womp Rats in his spare time every day?
And all those mad skills he must have picked up as a moisture farmer.
I mean, gosh, I wouldn't even know how to feed and care for moisture, and I'd be totally useless when it came time to round moisture up and butcher it. Which parts of moisture are good eating again, and which parts do I leave for the dogs? Is threshing or reaping involved? Any sort of husking or milling to remove moisture's inedible outer portions?
Ah, the moisture comes from *inside the womp rats!*
It all comes together!
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All I can add is that if Tarkin and the Empire hadn't seen Yoda in 20 years, and that no reports of Yoda doing anything had been noted since he fled the senate building, than if Yoda wasn't dead he migh as well been in terms of the Empires thinking. After all, what consequence could Yoda's fate have been to Tarkin after 20 years of The Empire having its own way.
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Stormtrooper 1: So, do we want to follow him down there?
Stormtrooper 2: Follow a three foot tall green jedi master swordsman that can force push a cruiser into the ground into a swamp planet where you can't walk without drowning or see three feet in front of your face?
Stormtrooper 1: You got a better idea?
Stormtrooper 2: Yeah. Where's that whomprat that snuck on board...
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and in his first day using a blaster, too.but... but.. I thought he was shooting Womp Rats in his spare time every day?And all those mad skills he must have picked up as a moisture farmer.
I mean, gosh, I wouldn't even know how to feed and care for moisture, and I'd be totally useless when it came time to round moisture up and butcher it. Which parts of moisture are good eating again, and which parts do I leave for the dogs? Is threshing or reaping involved? Any sort of husking or milling to remove moisture's inedible outer portions?
Ah, the moisture comes from *inside the womp rats!*
It all comes together!
Don't forget drinking blue milk. That boy can drink blue milk like a gods damned hero!
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Skills you pick up living on a farm
Farming
Fixing your own stuff (shown)
shooting varmints (stated, hinted at)
Hunting for fun (which teaches you a bit about being quiet and sneaking around)
Driving (since you were 12)
Drinking blue milk
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There is a fan theory that Yoda was actually killed by Vader at some point prior to Luke arriving. And that Yoda is actually a more strongly manifested projection during Luke's visits. The scene where Luke fights the vision of Vader was actually an echo of Vader killing Yoda. Once Luke's training was completed and he was ready to actually face both Vader and the Emperor, was Yoda able/willing to fully merge with the Force.