CBDunkerson |
In yet another echo of the original trilogy... Rey is actually Kylo Ren's daughter.
He saved her during the purge of the Jedi trainees by killing one of his own 'Knights of Ren' (scene shown in her lightsaber vision) and then sent her into hiding to keep her away from Snoke.
Hence Ren's "What girl!" reaction and his effort to get her to join him / let him train her during their fight. He didn't kill her during that long pause while she 'meditated on the Force' because he wasn't TRYING to kill her.
That would also make Han and Leia her grandparents... possibly explaining similarities to and reactions by them.
Side note: Ren's comment, "That's mine" when Finn pulled out the lightsaber may have been literal. My first thought was that he just felt it should belong to him because of his whole Vader fixation (and bloodline), but it is entirely possible that he actually owned the saber at some point... possibly recovered by Luke and given to his nephew during Jedi training. That would suggest the saber was present during the massacre and thus all of the visions Rey saw might be images from the saber's history.
P.S. I also firmly believe that the 'Knights of Ren' will be revealed to be closely allied with a group known only as the 'Wizards of Stimpy'. :]
Conman the Bardbarian |
Well she was flying the best smuggling ship in the galaxy.
Or the biggest piece of junk on the lot. "Oh, this is the Millennium Falcon? The ship that................................" That's right Rey, the Falcon has more backstory than you.
Irontruth |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rey's flying the ship at the beginning doesn't bother me. You can't establish things before the beginning of the movie and she flies the MF like 25 minutes into the movie. It's only her third scene (#1 scavenging/selling #2 rescue BB-8 #3 fleeing with Finn), so we're going to find out new things about her still.
I still think the most egregious offense is at the end of the movie. Why does Leia walk past Chewie (who she's known and loved as a friend/family for 30+ years) to hug a girl she doesn't know? Why does she give her husbands ship to Rey and send her on the most important mission of the Resistance? It's not explained at all.
If I had shot those scenes it would have taken extremely small changes:
Leia walks up to Chewie, he does his noises and points to Rey. Leia walks over and hugs her.
As their saying goodbye, Leia says "The Republic government has been destroyed and they need my help to rebuild it. Chewie trusts you, so I trust you. I need you to do something for me..." Cut to Rey and Chewie flying through hyperspace.
Alternatively, Rey tells Leia about her vision and new powers and Leia agrees to let her go find Luke.
That's about 30-40 seconds of additional time at most, otherwise it fits within existing screen time already. As is though, it makes no sense. From the opening crawl, we see that "She is desperate to find her brother Luke", she sent her best pilot to recover the map... TWICE. Then she lets a random kid take a droid, ship and her brother's lightsaber to go do this.
There are definitely theories as to why, which would make this make sense, but within the actual context of the movie, it's illogical and counter to the information we've been given.
CBDunkerson |
** spoiler omitted **
thejeff |
Rey's flying the ship at the beginning doesn't bother me. You can't establish things before the beginning of the movie and she flies the MF like 25 minutes into the movie. It's only her third scene (#1 scavenging/selling #2 rescue BB-8 #3 fleeing with Finn), so we're going to find out new things about her still.
A brief "Where'd you learn to fly like that?" would have helped.
OTOH, I expect the actual answer is "Because she's Luke's daughter (or Han's depending on your preferred theory)". Piloting skills may be genetic in the Star Wars universe. There's certainly evidence for the theory. :)Irontruth |
Irontruth wrote:** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
The very final scene was one of the best I can remember from any movie, ever. Probably not THE best, but it was up there. The scene prior to that though could have been done much better and actually set up the scene much more cleanly.
I'm fine with mystery and leaving things to be revealed in a future movie. What I'm not fine with is a character acting in contradiction to all their previous actions for no apparent reason.
We are not given a reason for Leia sending Rey IN THE MOVIE. You and I can speculate (and have already) why she did, but the fact remains that no explanation is given IN THE MOVIE.
Imbicatus |
CBDunkerson wrote:** spoiler omitted **Irontruth wrote:** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
MMCJawa |
** spoiler omitted **
I don't think the age gap is wide enough for Kylo to be Rey's father. Kylo would have had to have had the kid when he was in his early teens, not biologically impossible but an unlikely direction to take.
She's probably Luke's daughter, although I think it would be way cooler if she was Kenobi.
Irontruth |
Irontruth wrote:** spoiler omitted **CBDunkerson wrote:** spoiler omitted **Irontruth wrote:** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
I've seen it four times. The last 3 times I've specifically been looking for details when anything involving Leia and Rey is explained and it's not there. Anything you say is purely speculation, something you piece together from your perceptions of the movie and not actually something that happens in the movie.
Irontruth |
CBDunkerson wrote:** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
That's an excellent possibility I hadn't considered. My current ranking of Rey's origin:
#1 - Han and Leia's daughter
#2 - Unrelated to previous characters
#2a - she was a student of Luke's, but Kylo Ren spared her
#2b - Luke and Leia have another sibling who hasn't been discovered/revealed.
#3 - granddaughter of Obi-Wan Kenobi
#4 - Luke's daughter
#1 vs #4 I rank Luke's daughter last for multiple reasons, most of them from a story telling perspective. Cousin vs Cousin just isn't that poetic. Brother vs Sister inherently carries more tension if you're going to make them family, there's no reason to go with the half-assed variation.
If Luke had a daughter, we have to explain who her mother is, how they met, what their relationship was like, etc, etc. This movie did a good job of showing us things and not just having two people sit on a couch and tell stories of how they used to be friends. Luke's past love life would be an awkward thing to explain.
If Luke mindwiped Rey (and people who knew her), his actions of leaving her on the planet could be the same for whichever truth ends up being real. The mindwipe theory also explains why Han and Leia have instinctual reactions to Rey, such as hugging her like a long lost daughter for no apparent reason.
#2A is interesting. If the truth of it is uncovered in EP 8, it gives a reason why Kylo Ren might still be redeemable, or conversely, a reason for Rey to hate him even more (and thus give him a window to tempt her to the Dark side).
#2B From the opening crawl:
She is desperate to find her brother Luke
There is a comma missing from this statement. Having Luke's name after brother is superfluous. This either implies that Leia has more than one brother, or that JJ Abrams doesn't like commas.
Garrett Guillotte |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The biggest part of ANH and ESB left out of TFA were their Jedi training scenes, which means I can confidently bet that the next movie will revolve around Luke/Yoda training Rey/Luke, and Finn/Leia and Poe/Han getting in trouble in a gas giant with Lando/HOPEFULLY LANDO SHOWS UP AT SOME POINT I MEAN COME ON BILLY DEE WILLIAMS ISN'T DEAD, and Rey/Luke racing to save them against Luke/Yoda's advice, etc.
Did Poe seriously shotgun-pump a blaster? What the hell?
Boo on JJ's damned shakycam action scenes! I almost cheered as loud as Finn when we got that one smooth-panning tracking shot of the X-wing calvary hitting the FO on and above Maz's hideout. Of all the things to steal from the original trilogy, why not steal its smoother, longer dogfighting shots for Finn and Poe's escape, Finn and Rey's escape, or the Starkiller base dogfight?
Speaking of Starkiller: too many meta-callbacks. The original trilogy was itself a homage to pulp sci-fi books and early sci-fi films; TFA feels like a homage to the original trilogy, which amplifies how derivative the original concept is. It's fine to be derivative IF it stands alone, like the original trilogy did by developing the characters more than the plot. TFA substitutes your memories of those characters in place of on-screen character development, and fills the rest of the time with action and a fractured plot; it seems to depend on both the original trilogy and the next movies, and can't stand on its own. We don't get to see Rey develop her powers because we remember how a Jedi develops powers. We don't need Finn to be competent before we meet him or become competent in front of us because we remember how quickly farmboy Luke figured out the Falcon's gunner station or how to use a lightsaber.
Very little room for the characters to breathe. Poe is an archetype, not a person; his only character trait is being a talented and brash pilot. That's fine—Wedge wasn't much more than that either, but in three movies Wedge didn't get the screentime Poe got in TFA. Rey and Finn are inexplicably good at everything until the plot requires them to fail. Side effect of the torrential pace: There's no room for John Williams to lay in musical themes for characters or motifs. I can't recall a new musical motif for the Resistance, First Order, or any of the new characters like I can for the Empire, Luke's, or Han/Leia's themes; the closest I can get is the staccato theme Rey got while salvaging the ruined Star Destroyer, which is as slow-paced as the movie ever seems to get. Pulling up the soundtrack after watching the movie just reinforces how little room Williams had to work.
First Order cranks both the Space Nazi and dysfunctional organization dials to 11. They're distractingly incompetent. Phasma is an utter, catastrophic disappointment; along with Rey, Phasma is emblematic of the bait/switch campaigns that plague Abrams's works. Even in successfully destroying the new senate world or capturing Rey, the FO never feels like a threat; everyone knows the entire FO can be defeated with an ounce of the Force, some twine, and a couple hand grenades. Vader at least feels like a motivating threat; Kylo is a demoralizing distraction. The FO never deploys ground armor of any sort, which is bizarre considering the Empire's iconic ground combat scenes all involved AT walkers. The Republic ends up looking even less competent; half the Resistance fleet is a squadron of X-wings? Where are the Resistance's cap ships?
As a movie designed to sell action figures and playsets, this is maybe the 2nd- or 3rd-most effective movie in the series behind ESB and ROTJ. Flamethrower storm troopers, weird mace stormtroopers, black TIE fighters, planet base, Maz's hideout. So many toys that needed screentime to sell them that some toys came out despite their sources being cut from the movie.
Lots of nostalgic details looking backward, but little to remember going forward. We finally got a woman as a fighter pilot and I'm not sure she ever got a name, or even a callsign. We get an entire unnecessary dialogue-free Resistance scramble scene ahead of the Starkiller base assault but nothing to characterize the pilots; the dogfighting dialogue was all empty description, nothing like the banter of Biggs, Wedge, Porkins, Dak, etc. Not one dogfight death remotely as striking as Biggs's or the A-wing pilot's Star Destroyer bridge crash. We don't feel the losses. (Were there losses? You see Resistance fighters explode, but I think we only see one pilot's in-cockpit explosion?)
Rey/Finn relationship feels unearned, almost like scenes developing it were cut. Han/Leia relationship changes are barely explained; we hear about how Kylo tore them apart, but not for how long. Maz/Han and Maz/Luke relationships are unexplained. Snoke has no foresight and never feels as in control of anything as Palpatine. If the Ren/Hux relationship is supposed to parallel Tarkin/Vader as leader/enforcer, it failed as they seem at loggerheads throughout; otherwise, their relationship is barely coherent, completely at odds with each other in destructive ways. Every relationship outside of Han/Chewie and Han/Rey could have used one more scene, a few minutes of downtime, just to expand and fill the space; even 3P0 loudly talking about his stupid red arm feels like it was written to sell a EU book, and is ultimately yet another distraction presented out-of-context on screen.
It also feels like like every scene that calls back to the original trilogy misses the point of its inspiration while also failing to go in a new direction. Luke's isolation on Tatooine is less about his abandonment than his desire to escape, but Rey's isolation on Jakku is seemingly pointless. Mos Eisley cantina is a dangerous place where people get shot in booths or lose an arm without anyone blinking; it's not interesting because it's full of weird aliens, it's interesting because of what those aliens do. The tension of Luke pulling his lightsaber out of the snow isn't whether he can do it, it's because he's helpless and going to get ripped apart if he doesn't. When Rey overpowers Kylo's snow/saber force-pull, it just tells us what we already knew from the interrogation scene: Rey is better at the Force than him. Yoda isn't wise because he's old, short, or quirky, he's wise because he can teach and temper Luke, something Maz completely fails to do for Rey. Luke's vision of Vader on Dagobah was a test, not a premonition. The dogfights over the Death Star/Hoth/Endor aren't about how great the Rebel pilots are, they're life-or-death countdowns of each minute the Rebels fail to hit the target/evacuate/bring down the shields.
Kylo has Vader's mask, but not his lightsaber?
Why is Luke standing over what looks like a grave marker at the end? Why was that last scene of him and Rey making faces at each other for 10 seconds longer than what made any sense? Why is Luke's lightsaber at all important?
pres man |
Spoiler:If Luke had a daughter, we have to explain who her mother is, how they met, what their relationship was like, etc, etc. This movie did a good job of showing us things and not just having two people sit on a couch and tell stories of how they used to be friends. Luke's past love life would be an awkward thing to explain.
Hitdice |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Like bowcasters? :) Laser crossbows... they're cool, though, and that is all that matters.
I was just glad to see one actually in use; I swear to God, Chewie carried that thing around for the entire length of the first trilogy, and all I ever saw him shoot at was a speeder bike that one time! ;P
Irontruth |
Irontruth wrote:** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
Luke's never met his mother (and neither did the audience). But for his wife/girlfriend/mate, we know he met her and the nature of their relationship would need to impact how he behaves and how he deals with Rey (if she's his daughter).
Luke and Rey's relationship will be explored in depth in the next movie and these questions will have to be dealt with. I think making their relationship overly complicated (father/daughter/missing mom) would be a mistake. Uncle/niece is much less complicated and takes a massive backseat to teacher/student.
Having the father/daughter relationship keeps it too grounded in the past as well. If Rey is the next generation of hero, the relationship needs to be more like a yoda/luke thing.
CBDunkerson |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was just glad to see one actually in use; I swear to God, Chewie carried that thing around for the entire length of the first trilogy, and all I ever saw him shoot at was a speeder bike that one time! ;P
That's why Han didn't know how good it was. Chewie almost never actually used the thing. :]
thejeff |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Garrett Guillotte wrote:** spoiler omitted **...** spoiler omitted **
Hitdice |
Garrett Guillotte wrote:** spoiler omitted **...** spoiler omitted **
MeanDM |
I do admit that I would like to see an acknowledgement in the films that the Skywalker clan are not the only people in the galaxy with Force affinity. I mean, we finally found out that Lando wasn't the only person of color... Lets stretch our wings!
Edit: One of three. I forgot Bail Organa and the Royal Guard Commander of Naboo.
Krensky |
I do admit that I would like to see an acknowledgement in the films that the Skywalker clan are not the only people in the galaxy with Force affinity. I mean, we finally found out that Lando wasn't the only person of color... Lets stretch our wings!
Edit: One of three. I forgot Bail Organa and the Royal Guard Commander of Naboo.
Jango Fett, Boba Fett, the Clone Troopers, Mace Windu (Jedi Badass), Sabine Wren, Zare Leonis...
Freehold DM |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
MeanDM wrote:Jango Fett, Boba Fett, the Clone Troopers, Mace Windu (Jedi Badass), Sabine Wren, Zare Leonis...I do admit that I would like to see an acknowledgement in the films that the Skywalker clan are not the only people in the galaxy with Force affinity. I mean, we finally found out that Lando wasn't the only person of color... Lets stretch our wings!
Edit: One of three. I forgot Bail Organa and the Royal Guard Commander of Naboo.
jolee bindo.
pres man |
Well Mace was tossed out of a window. It isn't like that would have to kill a Jedi, even given just losing a hand. I mean, Anakin was jumping from air-car to air-car one movie earlier. It is believable that he went into hiding in the underworld of Coruscant. What if he became a totally type Jolee Bindo character. I could see Mace as being a "grey" Jedi.
Irontruth |
Irontruth wrote:** spoiler omitted **Garrett Guillotte wrote:** spoiler omitted **...** spoiler omitted **
There are some elements there, but that's just two buddies in an action movie. It's a pretty generic comparison, it's far from unique to star wars. I'd say R2-D2 and C-3PO in A New Hope have a relationship more similar to Luke and Han than Poe and Finn do.
Krensky |
Krensky wrote:jolee bindo.MeanDM wrote:Jango Fett, Boba Fett, the Clone Troopers, Mace Windu (Jedi Badass), Sabine Wren, Zare Leonis...I do admit that I would like to see an acknowledgement in the films that the Skywalker clan are not the only people in the galaxy with Force affinity. I mean, we finally found out that Lando wasn't the only person of color... Lets stretch our wings!
Edit: One of three. I forgot Bail Organa and the Royal Guard Commander of Naboo.
I was sticking to canon.
BigDTBone |
Well Mace was tossed out of a window. It isn't like that would have to kill a Jedi, even given just losing a hand. I mean, Anakin was jumping from air-car to air-car one movie earlier. It is believable that he went into hiding in the underworld of Coruscant. What if he became a totally type Jolee Bindo character. I could see Mace as being a "grey" Jedi.
I am 100% on board with, "if you don't see their dead body, then they aren't dead," rule. This also counts Padme because of her pervasive use of body doubles.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
Well Mace was tossed out of a window. It isn't like that would have to kill a Jedi, even given just losing a hand. I mean, Anakin was jumping from air-car to air-car one movie earlier. It is believable that he went into hiding in the underworld of Coruscant. What if he became a totally type Jolee Bindo character. I could see Mace as being a "grey" Jedi.
Windu lost lost most of both arms, and he probably took his defeat badly enough that he couldn't save himself after being tossed out. (He was severely owned by Darth Sidius, and probably lost his Force focus in that moment.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
pres man wrote:Well Mace was tossed out of a window. It isn't like that would have to kill a Jedi, even given just losing a hand. I mean, Anakin was jumping from air-car to air-car one movie earlier. It is believable that he went into hiding in the underworld of Coruscant. What if he became a totally type Jolee Bindo character. I could see Mace as being a "grey" Jedi.I am 100% on board with, "if you don't see their dead body, then they aren't dead," rule. This also counts Padme because of her pervasive use of body doubles.
Bearing children and dying in childbirth is beyond the ability of a body double. And she was no longer of a station or position to have access to any at that point.
pres man |
Remember Mace was electrocuted with force lightning, THEN tossed out the window.
Well he was shocked, I don't know for certain he was electrocuted. Luke got hit by force lightning several times and lived. Anakin also got hit by Dooku's force lightning and got back up and started fighting after a moment or two. And Yoda was zap as well.
Windu lost lost most of both arms, and he probably took his defeat badly enough that he couldn't save himself after being tossed out. (He was severely owned by Darth Sidius, and probably lost his Force focus in that moment.
Just watched the scene again and you can clearly see his left hand still attached after Anakin cuts off his right arm. And I would say he still has most of his right, definitely at least some below the elbow.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
Grey Lensman wrote:Remember Mace was electrocuted with force lightning, THEN tossed out the window.Well he was shocked, I don't know for certain he was electrocuted. Luke got hit by force lightning several times and lived. Anakin also got hit by Dooku's force lightning and got back up and started fighting after a moment or two.
Luke's a Skywalker..he's got Garry Stu powers. Windu is just an ordinary NPC.
Irontruth |
Irontruth wrote:I refuse to acknowledge EP 1-3 as canon.Ah, the Adam Savage gambit.
Let us know how that works for you.
It works great. Acknowledging them as canon would make my head hurt, because it would mean I have to pay attention to those awful, awful movies. The other day someone mentioned pod racing and I had actually forgotten that it was even in one of the movies. They were talking about a character involved with it, I still have no recollection of who they're talking about. Which is great, because they were talking about how awful the character was. I have successfully repressed it.
I haven't seen EP 3. I refuse to see it, regardless of how many times people tell me "it was the best of the three".
BigDTBone |
BigDTBone wrote:Bearing children and dying in childbirth is beyond the ability of a body double. And she was no longer of a station or position to have access to any at that point.pres man wrote:Well Mace was tossed out of a window. It isn't like that would have to kill a Jedi, even given just losing a hand. I mean, Anakin was jumping from air-car to air-car one movie earlier. It is believable that he went into hiding in the underworld of Coruscant. What if he became a totally type Jolee Bindo character. I could see Mace as being a "grey" Jedi.I am 100% on board with, "if you don't see their dead body, then they aren't dead," rule. This also counts Padme because of her pervasive use of body doubles.
Bearing children yes. But we didn't see her die. Also, she already had a dead body double from the beginning of AotC.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:Bearing children yes. But we didn't see her die. Also, she already had a dead body double from the beginning of AotC.BigDTBone wrote:Bearing children and dying in childbirth is beyond the ability of a body double. And she was no longer of a station or position to have access to any at that point.pres man wrote:Well Mace was tossed out of a window. It isn't like that would have to kill a Jedi, even given just losing a hand. I mean, Anakin was jumping from air-car to air-car one movie earlier. It is believable that he went into hiding in the underworld of Coruscant. What if he became a totally type Jolee Bindo character. I could see Mace as being a "grey" Jedi.I am 100% on board with, "if you don't see their dead body, then they aren't dead," rule. This also counts Padme because of her pervasive use of body doubles.
How about the fact that there is no story reason to keep her alive beyond this point? Padme finishes her story purpose by giving birth to twins. By canon, both Luke and Leia were raised as orphans and there's no Padme appearing at the end of Episode VI.
pres man |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Krensky wrote:Irontruth wrote:I refuse to acknowledge EP 1-3 as canon.Ah, the Adam Savage gambit.
Let us know how that works for you.
It works great. Acknowledging them as canon would make my head hurt, because it would mean I have to pay attention to those awful, awful movies. The other day someone mentioned pod racing and I had actually forgotten that it was even in one of the movies. They were talking about a character involved with it, I still have no recollection of who they're talking about. Which is great, because they were talking about how awful the character was. I have successfully repressed it.
I haven't seen EP 3. I refuse to see it, regardless of how many times people tell me "it was the best of the three".
Imbicatus |
MeanDM |
Krensky wrote:Irontruth wrote:I refuse to acknowledge EP 1-3 as canon.Ah, the Adam Savage gambit.
Let us know how that works for you.
It works great. Acknowledging them as canon would make my head hurt, because it would mean I have to pay attention to those awful, awful movies. The other day someone mentioned pod racing and I had actually forgotten that it was even in one of the movies. They were talking about a character involved with it, I still have no recollection of who they're talking about. Which is great, because they were talking about how awful the character was. I have successfully repressed it.
I haven't seen EP 3. I refuse to see it, regardless of how many times people tell me "it was the best of the three".
You must have iron will to go with your truth.
thejeff |
Krensky wrote:Irontruth wrote:I refuse to acknowledge EP 1-3 as canon.Ah, the Adam Savage gambit.
Let us know how that works for you.
It works great. Acknowledging them as canon would make my head hurt, because it would mean I have to pay attention to those awful, awful movies. The other day someone mentioned pod racing and I had actually forgotten that it was even in one of the movies. They were talking about a character involved with it, I still have no recollection of who they're talking about. Which is great, because they were talking about how awful the character was. I have successfully repressed it.
I haven't seen EP 3. I refuse to see it, regardless of how many times people tell me "it was the best of the three".
You can acknowledge them as canon without paying attention to them. You can enjoy the old Expanded Universe stuff without thinking it's canon.
You just can't expect the new works to stick to the now non-canon works or ignore the canon ones.