Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter?


Product Discussion

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So the World Eater was it imprisoned in a certain prime world by the combined pantheon? Is one of its heralds the Tarrasque? Is Clinton Boomer in on the project? Did you guys read his tumbler?


Prime Evil wrote:
It's an intriguing concept for an AP and one that hasn't been tried before.

Thanks!

Prime Evil wrote:
I like the idea that it will have an epic scale - it helps to highlight that it isn't just a "threat of the week" storyline. It feels like you really want to crank the dial up to 11.

Just to let you know we WILL be destroying a few campaign setting in this AP. Yep we ARE blowing up planets with all the repressions of that.

Prime Evil wrote:
There are a couple of obvious dangers. The first is that there won't be enough space to show off the unique features of each campaign setting. Depending upon how big this adventure Path will be, publishers may not have enough space to let their creations "breathe" properly.

The reason for the side trek is to give you a "taste" of the setting to see if you are interested.

Prime Evil wrote:
The second is that tastes vary and some players may *gasp* find some publisher's settings more aligned to their own personal tastes than others. I don't know that there's much that you can do about this issue - it's just human nature.

That is the hope. :-)

Prime Evil wrote:
And the third risk is an issue that plagues many of the big comic crossover events - there are simply so many moving parts that it becomes hard for people who aren't already familiar with the existing source material to keep track of what is going on and how it should be placed in a meaningful context.

I think we have found a go way to handle that with the use of the side treks in this.

Prime Evil wrote:
On the other hand, this has the potential to set up a coherent shared multiverse paving the way for occasional future crossovers. And that is a very good thing - I loved the idea back in the AD&D 2E era that all of the campaign worlds published in that period existed in a single multiverse.

That is our LOG TERM plan that all the 3PP are interconnected due to [REDACTED].

Prime Evil wrote:
Also, It would be fantastic if you could do this in a way that encourages GMs who have their own established homebrew campaign settings to incorporate them into the shared multiverse. If done right, this would increase the value of 3PP material to those GMs. Although they might spend most of their time own home turf, an occasional jaunt to another setting might be good thing to freshen up their game.

Stop looking at my computer.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
LMPjr007 wrote:
Stop looking at my computer.

I can't see enough because your head keeps getting in the way :)

LMPjr007 wrote:
Just to let you know we WILL be destroying a few campaign setting in this AP. Yep we ARE blowing up planets with all the repressions of that.

This is a bold move, but hard to pull off successfully. But if you can do it, it would be incredible.

One danger here is that players used to endless reboots of media properties (*cough* Secret Wars *cough*) might respond with a yawn rather than a sense of awe. Perhaps a nasty GM should spring this AP on their group as a complete surprise for maximum effect, giving them no advance warning of what they are getting into?

I'd also worry that once you've destroyed your first universe,it's hard to top that. How do you up the ante and build towards a climax? Also, how do you give players a sense that their character's actions can be meaningful when cosmic events are happening around them?

LMPjr007 wrote:
The reason for the side trek is to give you a "taste" of the setting to see if you are interested.

When you pitch it that way, it's a good approach. Give folks an easy entry point to check things out...

LMPjr007 wrote:
I think we have found a go way to handle that with the use of the side treks in this.

Will different publishers contribute their own side treks?

This could be a good way of exposing people to settings that they aren't already aware of.

LMPjr007 wrote:
That is our LOG TERM plan that all the 3PP are interconnected due to [REDACTED].

Awesome. And it would be great if whatever is redacted sets up a cool reason for future linkages between the different 3PP settings (or even homebrew settings) to be retconned as desired. This would not only allow PCs to move from one setting to another, it would also give the GM a convenient in-game excuse to introduce things they really like from one setting (spells, magic items, etc) in another.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a shared multiverse that any publisher can contribute to. Keep it vaguely compatible with the official multiverse that Paizo inherited from 3.5 and it might be very popular.

Do you have any idea when you'd think about Kickstarting this? I'm presuming that if you are discussing this publicly, you've already progressed beyond the vague concept stage and are trying to gauge the level of interest before taking the next step?


Just wondering, I am thinking of NOT having a print / POD version offered with the kickstarter. There will be a print version but AFTER we release the PDF version. What issues (if any) would you have with that? Please let me know. Thanks!


I probably wouldn't back it, but I think that would be a good approach. A lot of the issues with fulfilment of kickstarters seems to arise with the logistical side of organising the real world products. I think a "digital only" kickstarter is inherently less risky (though not, as it happens, useful to me).


Prime Evil wrote:
This is a bold move, but hard to pull off successfully. But if you can do it, it would be incredible.

That is why we are going for it.

Prime Evil wrote:
One danger here is that players used to endless reboots of media properties (*cough* Secret Wars *cough*) might respond with a yawn rather than a sense of awe. Perhaps a nasty GM should spring this AP on their group as a complete surprise for maximum effect, giving them no advance warning of what they are getting into?

Maybe we have something like that planned. Maybe in one adventure someone (or two) might need to be sacrifice to save a world. Better still, what if the sacrifice does nothing to stop the destruction of that world?

Prime Evil wrote:
I'd also worry that once you've destroyed your first universe,it's hard to top that. How do you up the ante and build towards a climax? Also, how do you give players a sense that their character's actions can be meaningful when cosmic events are happening around them?

The easy way it to make it THEIR home world that has been destroyed. Some people might take that personal. But don't worry about, if the destroy a world / universe / dimension, the better question are WHAT are the repercussions of that happening? There might be some deities and god like entities who might want to have a talk with you after killing millions of their followers.

Prime Evil wrote:
When you pitch it that way, it's a good approach. Give folks an easy entry point to check things out...

Thanks!

Prime Evil wrote:
Will different publishers contribute their own side treks?

YES!!!!! When have been talking to 3PP about doing something like this for over a year, so many of the more well know 3PP have sided on to assisting with this kickstarter.

Prime Evil wrote:
Awesome. And it would be great if whatever is redacted sets up a cool reason for future linkages between the different 3PP settings (or even homebrew settings) to be retconned as desired. This would not only allow PCs to move from one setting to another, it would also give the GM a convenient in-game excuse to introduce things they really like from one setting (spells, magic items, etc) in another.

Once you learn what [REDACTED] is you will think that [REDACTED] and the 3PP set it up to do it that way from when [REDACTED] did in the [REDACTED] AP.

Prime Evil wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a shared multiverse that any publisher can contribute to. Keep it vaguely compatible with the official multiverse that Paizo inherited from 3.5 and it might be very popular.

People will have an opportunity to team up and work together and in the long term that is good for everyone.

Prime Evil wrote:
Do you have any idea when you'd think about Kickstarting this?

First Quarter 2016

Prime Evil wrote:
I'm presuming that if you are discussing this publicly, you've already progressed beyond the vague concept stage and are trying to gauge the level of interest before taking the next step?

We are using this time to inform other 3PP and fans of 3PP what we are doing and how we can make this on of the most influential and successful kickstarters of 2016. Plus a $10 PDF reward level where you get all the threshold goals from numerous 3PP is pretty awesome.


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If there is no print option, I will probably sit the kickstarter out. I'm old school...I want a book in my hand.


Gerald wrote:
If there is no print option, I will probably sit the kickstarter out. I'm old school...I want a book in my hand.

There will be a print / POD version available, but most likely not during the kickstarter.


LMPjr007 wrote:
We are using this time to inform other 3PP and fans of 3PP what we are doing and how we can make this one of the most influential and successful kickstarters of 2016. Plus a $10 PDF reward level where you get all the threshold goals from numerous 3PP is pretty awesome.

Consider me informed :-)

Were you expecting those of us to whom you haven't spoken so far to pitch in ideas or proposals or something?

Richard


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Four Dollar Dungeons wrote:

Consider me informed :-)

Were you expecting those of us to whom you haven't spoken so far to pitch in ideas or proposals or something?

Richard

Right now we are working on the outline so we can place people in the right areas of work. I am hoping that we can get more 3PP in line once the outline is done. For now just follow this thread and keep checking online at our Facebook page for updated. Thanks!

Dark Archive

LMPjr007 wrote:
Four Dollar Dungeons wrote:

Consider me informed :-)

Were you expecting those of us to whom you haven't spoken so far to pitch in ideas or proposals or something?

Richard

Right now we are working on the outline so we can place people in the right areas of work. I am hoping that we can get more 3PP in line once the outline is done. For now just follow this thread and keep checking online at our Facebook page for updated. Thanks!

Sure!

(your link wasn't right, though)

Cheers

Richard


I would definitely buy something like this if it actually supports high level play. I pretty much pass on all the Paizo APs because they all stop well short of capstone levels (19th-20th).


While looking a few rewards from other kickstarters, I have come up with these rewards. Please feel free to comment on what you like and don't like. Thanks!

$1 - Back for a Buck (B4$): Thank You. Your name listed as a donor, our eternal gratitude, and lots of good karma!

$2 - Retailer Level: Funding at this level gives retailers the opportunity to purchase printed copies for their retail locations. These copies will be shipped in the US via Media Mail only. Qualified retailers, libraries or distributors only. Contact LPJ Design (LMPjr007 at Gmail.com) to confirm before pledging. This pledge is the only way for retailers, libraries or distributors to get the product, which WILL NOT otherwise be offered through distribution

$20 - Digital Only: You get the all the Crisis of the World Eater adventures and side treks in PDFs. This will also include all the stretch goals that are reached.

$75 - Black & White Soft Cover Printed: You get the all the Crisis of the World Eater adventures and side treks in PDFs. This will also include all the stretch goals that are reached.

$150 - Full Color Soft Cover Printed. Your image as the basis of a headshot that will appear in the Crisis of the World Eater book OR future LPJ Design release. Limit 35 people

$250 - Full Color Hard Cover Printed. Your image as the basis of a headshot that will appear in the Crisis of the World Eater book OR future LPJ Design release. You will be able to pitch your ideas for future 3PP original content over Skype and you'll join the ranks of fully credited designers in the Crisis of the World Eater book. Also you will to submit up to three (3) feats, three (3) spells, three (3) magic items and / or three (3) monsters (subject to design review, see FAQ) for future 3PP release. Limit 15 people


What if I want a color soft cover without anything else?


LMPjnr007 wrote:
$75 - Black & White Soft Cover Printed: You get the all the Crisis of the World Eater adventures and side treks in PDFs...

Is this an error? It reads PDFs, not softcover.

* You definitely need some pledge tiers between $20 and $75...


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*Glances in*

As a personal note, uh, I probably wouldn't refer to two books, plus sidequests, as an 'Adventure Path'. At the moment, this sounds closer to being an "Extended Two-part Adventure", especially if you're not starting at Level 1 or 2 and going all the way up.


Rednal wrote:

*Glances in*

As a personal note, uh, I probably wouldn't refer to two books, plus sidequests, as an 'Adventure Path'. At the moment, this sounds closer to being an "Extended Two-part Adventure", especially if you're not starting at Level 1 or 2 and going all the way up.

Agreed. This sounds more like a marketing stunt than an actual Adventure Path.


bookrat wrote:
What if I want a color soft cover without anything else?

We are not offering it as a reward. I would rather you get more and not need it.

bookrat wrote:

Is this an error? It reads PDFs, not softcover.

* You definitely need some pledge tiers between $20 and $75...

The $75 is softcover AND PDF. For right now, that is how it is. We might have some other rewards but noticing other kickstarters like Legendary Games did $40 to $100 range and I didn't really see people not support it. But if we find something that we can like to fit in there we will.

Rednal wrote:

*Glances in*

As a personal note, uh, I probably wouldn't refer to two books, plus sidequests, as an 'Adventure Path'. At the moment, this sounds closer to being an "Extended Two-part Adventure", especially if you're not starting at Level 1 or 2 and going all the way up.

Based on the number we are looking at there will be THREE main adventure (The third one will be a midpoint adventure) plus 24 Sidetrek adventures that will be roughly 400+ pages in length. While you might not start at first level I think you will have A LOT OF FUN playing it all the way thru (if we reach all our goals).

Rednal wrote:
Agreed. This sounds more like a marketing stunt than an actual Adventure Path.

Potentially 400+ pages and you don't think it is an adventure path? A typical AP is about 240 pages and we are looking to blow that page number out of the water teaming up with as many of the most influential 3PPs we can. When this starts we are going to redefine the term "Adventure Path" means.


See? THAT'S the kind of information that helps. XD And also why I said "at the moment"... though I'm curious as to whether or not most people would want to play most/all of those side-treks before moving on to the climax. I'm not entirely sure how tightly they'll be integrated into the main plot, though 24 high-quality standalone adventures - which I could probably run by themselves - might be pretty darn worthwhile to get in their own right. XD

(Remember, we don't know all of your ideas for this! ^^ I'm basing my opinions off of what limited info I have from this thread - and those opinions can, and generally will, change as new information is handed out.)


Rednal wrote:
See? THAT'S the kind of information that helps. XD And also why I said "at the moment"... though I'm curious as to whether or not most people would want to play most/all of those side-treks before moving on to the climax. I'm not entirely sure how tightly they'll be integrated into the main plot, though 24 high-quality standalone adventures - which I could probably run by themselves - might be pretty darn worthwhile to get in their own right. XD

We are really trying to do this right on every level and we are signing up people to help make this a possibility.

Rednal wrote:
(Remember, we don't know all of your ideas for this! ^^ I'm basing my opinions off of what limited info I have from this thread - and those opinions can, and generally will, change as new information is handed out.)

This is the real issue being a gaming developer and publisher, "How much info do you leak out?" I know what you to know EVERYTHING we are planning but we do need to put out more info to the fans out there.


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LMPjr007 wrote:
Rednal wrote:
See? THAT'S the kind of information that helps. XD And also why I said "at the moment"... though I'm curious as to whether or not most people would want to play most/all of those side-treks before moving on to the climax. I'm not entirely sure how tightly they'll be integrated into the main plot, though 24 high-quality standalone adventures - which I could probably run by themselves - might be pretty darn worthwhile to get in their own right. XD

We are really trying to do this right on every level and we are signing up people to help make this a possibility.

Rednal wrote:
(Remember, we don't know all of your ideas for this! ^^ I'm basing my opinions off of what limited info I have from this thread - and those opinions can, and generally will, change as new information is handed out.)
This is the real issue being a gaming developer and publisher, "How much info do you leak out?" I know what you to know EVERYTHING we are planning but we do need to put out more info to the fans out there.

Total transparency works pretty well for me. Just vomit everything forth in a blog and see if it works for you.


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Interjection Games wrote:
LMPjr007 wrote:
Rednal wrote:
See? THAT'S the kind of information that helps. XD And also why I said "at the moment"... though I'm curious as to whether or not most people would want to play most/all of those side-treks before moving on to the climax. I'm not entirely sure how tightly they'll be integrated into the main plot, though 24 high-quality standalone adventures - which I could probably run by themselves - might be pretty darn worthwhile to get in their own right. XD

We are really trying to do this right on every level and we are signing up people to help make this a possibility.

Rednal wrote:
(Remember, we don't know all of your ideas for this! ^^ I'm basing my opinions off of what limited info I have from this thread - and those opinions can, and generally will, change as new information is handed out.)
This is the real issue being a gaming developer and publisher, "How much info do you leak out?" I know what you to know EVERYTHING we are planning but we do need to put out more info to the fans out there.
Total transparency works pretty well for me. Just vomit everything forth in a blog and see if it works for you.

As a customer, I appreciate up-front honesty. Coy partial reveals don't get me excited about a project; content does.

And if I am excited about an upcoming RPG supplement, knowing your plans ahead of time helps me manage my budget so that I can more easily afford it.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

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LPJ being advised on transparency, heh. I didn't see that one coming!

You guys should check out the 80+ Transparency Agenda videos on his Google+ page

Louis, you should do your next video on this project.


In fairness, sometimes publishers are still putting things together, and literally do not have an answer to give. XD That's why I try to judge things by the final proposal, not any in-progress bits.

At the moment, for example, I'm kind of concerned about having too many sidequests. An earlier post mentioned that the campaign would, effectively, be 8th to 11th for the beginning, 14th to 17th for the end, and presumably sidequests in the middle (12th to 14th). Subject to change, of course.

So... As I understand it, we would have roughly 24 adventures covering 3 levels. Given the suggested length of the book, that sounds like a lot of content with very little advancement (if it's all meant to be played), or a lot of content that the average gaming group might not actually play (which, at first glance, does not sound like a good way to make a product).

These issues are sufficiently important to me that I suspect I'm missing something very noteworthy and/or obvious here. XD At the moment, I am uncertain and have not formed an opinion... nor will I until I see the full, official pitch for this project, at which point I'm sure my concerns will be properly alleviated. ^^


So... only fifteen people get hardcovers? No way to just get hardcover and PDF without all the bonus design-a-something?


LMPjr007 wrote:

While looking a few rewards from other kickstarters, I have come up with these rewards. Please feel free to comment on what you like and don't like. Thanks!

$1 - Back for a Buck (B4$): Thank You. Your name listed as a donor, our eternal gratitude, and lots of good karma!

$2 - Retailer Level: Funding at this level gives retailers the opportunity to purchase printed copies for their retail locations. These copies will be shipped in the US via Media Mail only. Qualified retailers, libraries or distributors only. Contact LPJ Design (LMPjr007 at Gmail.com) to confirm before pledging. This pledge is the only way for retailers, libraries or distributors to get the product, which WILL NOT otherwise be offered through distribution

$20 - Digital Only: You get the all the Crisis of the World Eater adventures and side treks in PDFs. This will also include all the stretch goals that are reached.

$75 - Black & White Soft Cover Printed: You get the all the Crisis of the World Eater adventures and side treks in PDFs. This will also include all the stretch goals that are reached.

$150 - Full Color Soft Cover Printed. Your image as the basis of a headshot that will appear in the Crisis of the World Eater book OR future LPJ Design release. Limit 35 people

$250 - Full Color Hard Cover Printed. Your image as the basis of a headshot that will appear in the Crisis of the World Eater book OR future LPJ Design release. You will be able to pitch your ideas for future 3PP original content over Skype and you'll join the ranks of fully credited designers in the Crisis of the World Eater book. Also you will to submit up to three (3) feats, three (3) spells, three (3) magic items and / or three (3) monsters (subject to design review, see FAQ) for future 3PP release. Limit 15 people

I have a few comments:

1. These prices look cheap to me (but RPG books are always underpriced, in my opinion, so take that with a grain of salt).

2. It seems odd to offer only a few hardcovers and a few color softcovers. Why not provide two unlimited option for 'just the book'? (One hardcover, one color softcover). I dont know how unit-pricing works with print-on-demand but it can't make things more expensive, can it?

3. It seems to me that "you can contribute material" pledges are quite popular in RPG kickstarters, but their existence is a negative to me. In my opinion they increase the risk to timely delivery. More controversially, I think they increase the risk of poor quality - I think that is necessarily the case when you invite amateurs to participate, no matter how many anecdotally good amateurs one can point to.

4. I think you could probably harness the retailers better by including them as bulk-preorders (and requiring "proof" of operating as a store). I think a significant factor in successful kickstarters is seeing an ever climbing, large-relative-to-goal pledge amount. Granted I'm ignorant of the behind-the-scenes stuff but I dont understand what's gained by excluding those sales in the kickstarter total.

5. This is more a proofreading thing, but the higher pledges dont include the stretch goals reached which is presumably just an accidental omission.


Rednal wrote:
In fairness, sometimes publishers are still putting things together, and literally do not have an answer to give. XD That's why I try to judge things by the final proposal, not any in-progress bits.

Thanks!

Rednal wrote:
At the moment, for example, I'm kind of concerned about having too many sidequests. An earlier post mentioned that the campaign would, effectively, be 8th to 11th for the beginning, 14th to 17th for the end, and presumably sidequests in the middle (12th to 14th). Subject to change, of course.

The mind set we have it that each main adventure you should be able to go up to 3 levels while playing them. With the side track you should need to play 3 to 4 of them to go up one level. This is our working theory, but as always nothing is set in stone.

Rednal wrote:
So... As I understand it, we would have roughly 24 adventures covering 3 levels. Given the suggested length of the book, that sounds like a lot of content with very little advancement (if it's all meant to be played), or a lot of content that the average gaming group might not actually play (which, at first glance, does not sound like a good way to make a product).

Here is the break down of how we see the adventure playing out we we reach each and every goal:

Prologue adventure, then Alpha Adventure, then 12 side treks, then Midway adventure, then 12 more side trek adventures and finally the Omega adventure.

Rednal wrote:
These issues are sufficiently important to me that I suspect I'm missing something very noteworthy and/or obvious here. XD At the moment, I am uncertain and have not formed an opinion... nor will I until I see the full, official pitch for this project, at which point I'm sure my concerns will be properly alleviated. ^^

Right now we are working on getting the right writers on this project and the basic skeleton outline. Once this is complete we will be able to reveal more of out plans and better still which 3PP have signed on to work with us.

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
So... only fifteen people get hardcovers? No way to just get hardcover and PDF without all the bonus design-a-something?

After the kickstarter, Yes. But during the kick starter, No. What they final cost will be is currently unknown, but at a minimum I will say it will me more that $90.

Steve Geddes wrote:
I have a few comments:

I have a few answers.

Steve Geddes wrote:
1. These prices look cheap to me (but RPG books are always underpriced, in my opinion, so take that with a grain of salt).

On of the biggest drains of a kickstarter cash flow is Printing AND Shipping. If you can remove those two aspect you can keep the cost of a kickstarter to very minimal levels. Hence the $20 is SO attractive.

Steve Geddes wrote:
2. It seems odd to offer only a few hardcovers and a few color softcovers. Why not provide two unlimited option for 'just the book'? (One hardcover, one color softcover). I dont know how unit-pricing works with print-on-demand but it can't make things more expensive, can it?

Actually the cost to print a 400 page full color hard cover books as a print on demand (POD) is $46.30 thru DriveThruRPG.com. And that is JUST the printing cost. I have not included writing, editing, artwork, layout and shipping in that cost. Just a printed book with blank pages at that cost. That is why we are limiting the book printing at that level.

Steve Geddes wrote:
3. It seems to me that "you can contribute material" pledges are quite popular in RPG kickstarters, but their existence is a negative to me. In my opinion they increase the risk to timely delivery. More controversially, I think they increase the risk of poor quality - I think that is necessarily the case when you invite amateurs to participate, no matter how many anecdotally good amateurs one can point to.

The major thing to that is to make sure it is something new and beginner writers can handle like a feat or spells. There are normally 300 words each and giving them 2 weeks to work on them is normally more than enough. We have TONS of writers and editors who help turn the beginners rough ideas into quality work. That is what we pay the professional for.

Steve Geddes wrote:
4. I think you could probably harness the retailers better by including them as bulk-preorders (and requiring "proof" of operating as a store). I think a significant factor in successful kickstarters is seeing an ever climbing, large-relative-to-goal pledge amount. Granted I'm ignorant of the behind-the-scenes stuff but I dont understand what's gained by excluding those sales in the kickstarter total.

Tell you the truth most retail stores are not fans of kickstarter. You can Google the words Game Retailer, Kickstarter and issues and read TONS of articles about retailers and their feelings. And just to let you know it will be nasty on both sides of the argument. I just like to offer them for my kickstarters, but honest we normally only get 10 retailers that sign up for these rewards.

Steve Geddes wrote:
5. This is more a proofreading thing, but the higher pledges dont include the stretch goals reached which is presumably just an accidental omission.

Yes you are correct. :-)


LMPjr007 wrote:
I wrote:
It seems odd to offer only a few hardcovers and a few color softcovers. Why not provide two unlimited option for 'just the book'? (One hardcover, one color softcover). I dont know how unit-pricing works with print-on-demand but it can't make things more expensive, can it?
Actually the cost to print a 400 page full color hard cover books as a print on demand (POD) is $46.30 thru DriveThruRPG.com. And that is JUST the printing cost. I have not included writing, editing, artwork, layout and shipping in that cost. Just a printed book with blank pages at that cost. That is why we are limiting the book printing at that level.

I think I didn't explain myself well. I realise printing is expensive, but why limit it to 15 hardcovers? Sure an extra ten hardcovers is an extra $463+ in printing costs - but you'd be selling the pledges for far more than that, so you'd make more profit (or have more to cover other costs). I'm imagining a "hardcover only" pledge for $100-$150 plus postage.

One of the big benefits of the kickstarter model is that you can offer super expensive pledge levels to subsidise the lower levels without having to commit to the production costs before knowing the demand.


Steve Geddes wrote:

I think I didn't explain myself well. I realise printing is expensive, but why limit it to 15 hardcovers? Sure an extra ten hardcovers is an extra $463+ in printing costs - but you'd be selling the pledges for far more than that, so you'd make more profit (or have more to cover other costs). I'm imagining a "hardcover only" pledge for $100-$150 plus postage.

One of the big benefits of the kickstarter model is that you can offer super expensive pledge levels to subsidise the lower levels without having to commit to the production costs before knowing the demand.

For me it is the nature of exclusivity. I want it to be rare. I want people to make a decision of choosing one over the other and realize if they want it, that will not have forever to get it. This book will be so rare, I as the publisher most likely will NOT be getting a copy.


Rusty Ironpants wrote:

LPJ being advised on transparency, heh. I didn't see that one coming!

You guys should check out the 80+ Transparency Agenda videos on his Google+ page

Louis, you should do your next video on this project.

-shrugs-

I quite literally don't pay attention to anything my competitors are working on. To that end, I don't know anyone's methods, either.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Emerald Spire, Thornkeep, and Star Trek:The Next Generation/Voyager have given me low expectations of Creativity by Committee. Make the presentation video, show me that there is a captain of a ship composed of a really great idea, and then I'd consider supporting it.

This request for support for a kickstarter without a plan, a theme, nor even a compelling concept, is like asking me to approve blindly a restaurant with a blank menu.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

I think I didn't explain myself well. I realise printing is expensive, but why limit it to 15 hardcovers? Sure an extra ten hardcovers is an extra $463+ in printing costs - but you'd be selling the pledges for far more than that, so you'd make more profit (or have more to cover other costs). I'm imagining a "hardcover only" pledge for $100-$150 plus postage.

One of the big benefits of the kickstarter model is that you can offer super expensive pledge levels to subsidise the lower levels without having to commit to the production costs before knowing the demand.

For me it is the nature of exclusivity. I want it to be rare. I want people to make a decision of choosing one over the other and realize if they want it, that will not have forever to get it. This book will be so rare, I as the publisher most likely will NOT be getting a copy.

I thought it was going to be available after the kickstarter? Rarity and print on demand aren't really compatible concepts - if you want a limited edition, quality is important (and POD is improving, but still not there).


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Interjection Games wrote:
Rusty Ironpants wrote:

LPJ being advised on transparency, heh. I didn't see that one coming!

You guys should check out the 80+ Transparency Agenda videos on his Google+ page

Louis, you should do your next video on this project.

-shrugs-

I quite literally don't pay attention to anything my competitors are working on. To that end, I don't know anyone's methods, either.

I will suggest for you: Rules for Revolutionaries. Once you read this book you will understand WHY you should watching AND understanding your competitors. Hope you check it out.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I thought it was going to be available after the kickstarter? Rarity and print on demand aren't really compatible concepts - if you want a limited edition, quality is important (and POD is improving, but still not there).

Yes, most likely, but I don't know what they final cost will be. But it may not happen due to the cost. So if you want the hard cover, then you are going to have to sing up for it but you might NOT get it.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Interjection Games wrote:
Rusty Ironpants wrote:

LPJ being advised on transparency, heh. I didn't see that one coming!

You guys should check out the 80+ Transparency Agenda videos on his Google+ page

Louis, you should do your next video on this project.

-shrugs-

I quite literally don't pay attention to anything my competitors are working on. To that end, I don't know anyone's methods, either.

I will suggest for you: Rules for Revolutionaries. Once you read this book you will understand WHY you should watching AND understanding your competitors. Hope you check it out.

From a review of said book:

'Next, Guy introduces you to a concept he calls, "Don't Worry, Be Crappy." Simply put, don't worry about perfecting a product before sending it to market. Focus on getting your product quickly to the market, but be ready to make constant improvements based on user feedback. He says effective companies have a circular built-in system for continuous product perfection, rather than viewing the product life cycle as linear. It's not how good you can make your product the first time, but rather how quickly you can respond to feedback after it launches."

So much awesome right there. Revolutionary in fact. Where did I put my bucket...Oh wait, it was made to be crap. Better tell the bucket-company....Oops, I can't because the feedback loop is broken...

The amount of products I see that are rushed out both by Paizo and 3PP's large and small is phenomenal - typos, missing text, whole interactions between mechanics borked or referenced abilities, classes, mechanics, feats, spells etc completely missing.

If only products weren't the ultimate aim, but the sharing of concepts... Then transparency would not be an agenda, but a given.


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Honestly... I wouldn't care if it's a joint project, if it's 3pp or even who is making it...

All that matters to me is this:

1- Is this something I'd enjoy?
2- Do I have the money to contribute?
3- Do I trust the producer to deliver?

If the answer to all those questions is "Yes", then yes, I'll contribute. If any of them is a "No", then no, I won't.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I thought it was going to be available after the kickstarter? Rarity and print on demand aren't really compatible concepts - if you want a limited edition, quality is important (and POD is improving, but still not there).
Yes, most likely, but I don't know what they final cost will be. But it may not happen due to the cost. So if you want the hard cover, then you are going to have to sing up for it but you might NOT get it.

Which will harm the kickstarter and limit the amount of funds you can raise - which is my point.

I really feel like I'm not managing to explain this issue very well, so I'll stop here. Suffice to say, the higher level pledges are the most profitable - it doesn't make sense to limit their availability unless you're providing some kind of special incentive (like limited edition, higher production values, original art, etcetera).

What's the gain in restricting the availability of colour books? Once the fifty of them are spoken for, there's a whole cohort of potential customers incentivised to wait for the kickstarter to finish and see if a print on demand version becomes available.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Interjection Games wrote:
Rusty Ironpants wrote:

LPJ being advised on transparency, heh. I didn't see that one coming!

You guys should check out the 80+ Transparency Agenda videos on his Google+ page

Louis, you should do your next video on this project.

-shrugs-

I quite literally don't pay attention to anything my competitors are working on. To that end, I don't know anyone's methods, either.

I will suggest for you: Rules for Revolutionaries. Once you read this book you will understand WHY you should watching AND understanding your competitors. Hope you check it out.

Nah, still not worried, chief. I took a look at the competition a few times out of curiosity, and, by and large, the scene is incestuous because many publishers share a stable of freelancers. That's how I was able to gain traction in the first place, and that's how I've grown to the point that freelancing is actually a significant loss of cash (with the inclusion of some paymaster git what thinks he owns you). Given my angle, that makes my entire list of people to watch become Augunas, AAW, Ascension, and LRGG. One doesn't play with crunch and the others are slower than I am, so I'll beat them to the punch if it ever matters.

As it is, I'm growing at a clip that's still got me utterly floored, so I'll continue doing what I'm doing. You can watch me, if you like.

Also, that's just a book pushing AGILE methodologies. It's trendy, sure, but it's not like it's new. There was something much like it before Waterfall, and something much like Waterfall will replace AGILE once early adopters get sick and tired of buying junk. It's just a big, senseless pendulum, and there ain't any reason to spend money on it.


Interjection Games wrote:
Also, that's just a book pushing AGILE methodologies. It's trendy, sure, but it's not like it's new. There was something much like it before Waterfall, and something much like Waterfall will replace AGILE once early adopters get sick and tired of buying junk. It's just a big, senseless pendulum, and there ain't any reason to spend money on it.

What is funny is the book was written 15 years ago by Guy Kawasaki who handled the marketing for Apple from 1983. He's been a head of the curve for a while. But to each his own.


Not funny at all. It predated Waterfall and came back into vogue. It's like Disco. It tries to look new and shiny, but it's just the same thing rammed down your throat time and time again. In another 15 years, this same talk will come up over a book published in the last couple of years.


I knew wearing sparkly blue sequinned flares and matching sparkly blue sequinned vest and dancing to "Car Wash" with my girlfriend in a disco competition in a pub in the mid 90's was a retrograde step!

Nor did we win, some other, flashier, better rehearsed outfit of three (with a seguing medley - I thought that was a bit precocious, and obviously so did the judges!!!) got the better of us. By being much better.

Take from that what you will.


Thanael wrote:
So the World Eater was it imprisoned in a certain prime world by the combined pantheon? Is one of its heralds the Tarrasque? Is Clinton Boomer in on the project? Did you guys read his tumbler?

I notice that this got ignored. Simple question: is Boomer in?


Regarding printing, people seem to be confused. As I understand it the kickstarter will be primarily to get the content produced as a PDF - with some limited rewards offering limited edition print copies. Then, afterwards when the entire project is done, there will be effort putting it into making a printed copy available.


Thanael wrote:
Thanael wrote:
So the World Eater was it imprisoned in a certain prime world by the combined pantheon? Is one of its heralds the Tarrasque? Is Clinton Boomer in on the project? Did you guys read his tumbler?
I notice that this got ignored. Simple question: is Boomer in?

I have talked to Boomer about this, but since he has a newborn he could only give me a "maybe". Having had a newborn I understand the "maybe". So keep your fingers crossed.

RonarsCorruption wrote:
Regarding printing, people seem to be confused. As I understand it the kickstarter will be primarily to get the content produced as a PDF - with some limited rewards offering limited edition print copies. Then, afterwards when the entire project is done, there will be effort putting it into making a printed copy available.

That is correct. We WILL be doing a printed version most likely in black & white and "possibly" in full color.


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RonarsCorruption wrote:
Regarding printing, people seem to be confused. As I understand it the kickstarter will be primarily to get the content produced as a PDF - with some limited rewards offering limited edition print copies. Then, afterwards when the entire project is done, there will be effort putting it into making a printed copy available.

I don't know if I'm one of "people" but if so, I'm not confused. I understand the proposal - I think limiting the funds the kickstarter can raise in this way is a bad idea.

If I can't get a full colour hardcover (for which I'll pledge a stupidly high amount for) then I won't back the kickstarter (PDFs are valueless to me and black and white versions of colour books are not of interest). So the project is less likely to reach stretch goals - for no good reason, as far as I can see.

Scarab Sages

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Steve Geddes wrote:
RonarsCorruption wrote:
Regarding printing, people seem to be confused. As I understand it the kickstarter will be primarily to get the content produced as a PDF - with some limited rewards offering limited edition print copies. Then, afterwards when the entire project is done, there will be effort putting it into making a printed copy available.

I don't know if I'm one of "people" but if so, I'm not confused. I understand the proposal - I think limiting the funds the kickstarter can raise in this way is a bad idea.

If I can't get a full colour hardcover (for which I'll pledge a stupidly high amount for) then I won't back the kickstarter (PDFs are valueless to me and black and white versions of colour books are not of interest). So the project is less likely to reach stretch goals - for no good reason, as far as I can see.

My feelings exactly. I've backed several 3pp APs and books over the last year on Kickstarter. I like the PDFs just fine as a value added, but if I'm not getting a physical book, I'm not backing the Kickstarter. There's no reason to do so. In my mind, Kickstarters are for more or less finished projects that require the upfront capital to print the books cost-effectively. I'm not willing to front the money for the development in the first place, that's much higher risk than I'm willing to put into a project (and is how you get stuff like the Fire Mountain Games fiasco).


Steve Geddes wrote:

I don't know if I'm one of "people" but if so, I'm not confused. I understand the proposal - I think limiting the funds the kickstarter can raise in this way is a bad idea.

If I can't get a full colour hardcover (for which I'll pledge a stupidly high amount for) then I won't back the kickstarter (PDFs are valueless to me and black and white versions of colour books are not of interest). So the project is less likely to reach stretch goals - for no good reason, as far as I can see.

OK This has confused me personally since doing kickstarters, I am actually amazed at the amount of people who what hard cover editions of book. I as a creator want to make product that people can reasonable afford and with that the cost of a full color hard cover seems to be too expensive and cost prohibitive. That is the reason I do soft cover B&W and color version. But it seems to me I have been looking at this the wrong way.

Duiker wrote:
My feelings exactly. I've backed several 3pp APs and books over the last year on Kickstarter. I like the PDFs just fine as a value added, but if I'm not getting a physical book, I'm not backing the Kickstarter. There's no reason to do so. In my mind, Kickstarters are for more or less finished projects that require the upfront capital to print the books cost-effectively. I'm not willing to front the money for the development in the first place, that's much higher risk than I'm willing to put into a project (and is how you get stuff like the Fire Mountain Games fiasco).

Thanks for the feedback. It is very interesting to me. I think I will have to go back and make some changes in our reward levels. Thanks for the help!


LMPjr007 wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

I don't know if I'm one of "people" but if so, I'm not confused. I understand the proposal - I think limiting the funds the kickstarter can raise in this way is a bad idea.

If I can't get a full colour hardcover (for which I'll pledge a stupidly high amount for) then I won't back the kickstarter (PDFs are valueless to me and black and white versions of colour books are not of interest). So the project is less likely to reach stretch goals - for no good reason, as far as I can see.

OK This has confused me personally since doing kickstarters, I am actually amazed at the amount of people who what hard cover editions of book. I as a creator want to make product that people can reasonable afford and with that the cost of a full color hard cover seems to be too expensive and cost prohibitive. That is the reason I do soft cover B&W and color version. But it seems to me I have been looking at this the wrong way.

I think you're probably thinking the right way in terms of the majority view - most RPG customers seem quite price-sensitive (or certainly say they are). I have a peculiar viewpoint in that I value and like to support both the open gaming movement and crowdfunding as a general concept - I'm not looking around for a bargain, I'm looking around for an excuse to put money into the project.

My main point is that you can have your cake and eat it too with crowdfunding - I think that's one of it's key benefits. It doesnt matter (in a kickstarter) if you make a deluxe POD hardcover version available for $200 and nobody buys it - you dont incur any production costs. I can't see what's gained by taking that option off the table (or limiting it so severely - I think a "limited edition" book should be something pretty special, not just rare).


It is something also seen in free to play MMO's. There are "whales" that will spend tons of money on the game due to their enjoyment of playing and/or desire to get everything they can as fast as they can. Where the vast majority will be spending what they can, when they can with the micro transitions on the shop. I've seen A LOT of money spent in some of these games (upwards of a thousand dollars easy from one person). So what you probably need to do is feel out how many of those interested are willing to invest at that price/product point and if it is worth it on your end. Worst case scenario, if the demand is significantly past what you expected you can increase the limited edition print numbers as a stretch goal or something of the sort.

People who want the limited edition hardcover want it for various reasons. Not just that it will be one of twenty five. If this is the only time you are printing it, increasing the number in circulation won't really be an issue I don't think. Especially if you state upfront that you might open up more of those print slots if demand requires it. I think limiting the print option is probably a good idea, especially considering what the poor guys at DSP have been through to date with UltPsi, if you are unsure on how much interest and funding you are going to get. They are still going through fulfillment issues on physical products and it has been one of the major headaches they ran into from most updates they sent out.


I think Steve's attitude is probably more widespread in Kickstarter backers than you might think. I certainly tend towards that too.

Check out the pledge levels of FGG and Kobold kickstarters for examples.

Also more input about the content, concept and crew is IMO needed. Personally I'm not that excited yet. I need more details. If Boomers stuff from the Tumbler makes it in I'm hyped. He spent a lot of thought on the concept and made some gorgeous high level NPCs. Including the tarrasque or even several tarrasques (dare I say mythic tarrasque) tying this to Rovagug being freed would certainly up the interest IMO.

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