Ranged touch attack and penalties

[NS Bill]

I told a player last week that she had to take a -4 penalty for casting a spell with a ranged touch attack on a target that was in melee. The player mentioned that she never had to take the penalty before. This was an experienced player. I checked the Core Rule book. Did I miss anything?

[Rory]

NS Bill wrote:

I told a player last week that she had to take a -4 penalty for casting a spell with a ranged touch attack on a target that was in melee.

You were correct.

The second comment from the bottom of the page is a designer reference.

Designer Comment

[dragonhunterq]

It's a ranged attack that targets touch AC. It still follows all the normal rules for ranged attacks. You were perfectly correct to apply the shooting into melee penalty. I'd be surprised if the penalty for cover because of interposing allies didn't apply too.

[Mark Hoover]

Do you still apply the penalty if the villain is only threatened by allied PCs with Reach? Yes the villain is threatened but no one is directly adjacent so is there still a penalty for firing into melee?

[dragonhunterq]

PRD wrote:

Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)

If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.

If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.

If all melee is at 10' or greater reach then the firing into melee penalties do not apply.

[claudekennilol]

See THIS thread (also please click the FAQ request).

[Gisher]

claudekennilol wrote:

See THIS thread (also please click the FAQ request).

Yes, please FAQ it. This thread is just one more example that proves this really is a Frequently Asked Question.

[dragonhunterq]

Frequently asked and frequently answered with little to no contention. FAQs are really only for contentious issues in my opinion. If it raised a lot of argument (such as leaping 10' say :)) then I would happily FAQ. As it is easily solved i don't see that an FAQ is required. FAQ won't stop people asking.

[claudekennilol]

dragonhunterq wrote:

Frequently asked and frequently answered with little to no contention. FAQs are really only for contentious issues in my opinion. If it raised a lot of argument (such as leaping 10' say :)) then I would happily FAQ. As it is easily solved i don't see that an FAQ is required. FAQ won't stop people asking.

It's only easily answered if you follow the masses and go with the unwritten rule that's widely accepted. Also what do you think the definition of FAQ is?

[Gwen Smith]

dragonhunterq wrote:

It's a ranged attack that targets touch AC. It still follows all the normal rules for ranged attacks. You were perfectly correct to apply the shooting into melee penalty. I'd be surprised if the penalty for cover because of interposing allies didn't apply too.

I agree. It's still a ranged attack.

If you're in melee yourself, you also take an AoO for using a ranged attack--that's in addition to any AoOs you have to contend with for casting the spell. (FAQ on this here)

[dragonhunterq]

claudekennilol wrote:

dragonhunterq wrote:

Frequently asked and frequently answered with little to no contention. FAQs are really only for contentious issues in my opinion. If it raised a lot of argument (such as leaping 10' say :)) then I would happily FAQ. As it is easily solved i don't see that an FAQ is required. FAQ won't stop people asking.

It's only easily answered if you follow the masses and go with the unwritten rule that's widely accepted. Also what do you think the definition of FAQ is?

What 'unwritten rule' exactly? The ranged attack rules are very clearly set out. There is nothing anywhere to state that ranged touch attacks are exempt from those rules.

[TGMaxMaxer]

The "unwritten rule" is that everyone assumes that all ranged touch attacks are weapons. They are not.
The reason this is a FAQ question, is because certain types of spells (specifically Rays) had to be called out as weapons in order to qualify for Weapon Focus, etc. So, without that explicit example, they are not weapons per se, otherwise you could have used Arcane Strike to add damage to all the Fiery Shuriken, Acid Splashes, Flame Rays, etc. There are also various Ranged touch spells that are not rays, which do not qualify to add bonuses from things like Inspire Courage, Arcane Strike, etc.

CRB Combat Chapter wrote:

Cover

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

CRB Remainder of Cover Section for Completeness:

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he's closer to the obstacle than his target.

Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

Cover and Reflex Saves: Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus.

Cover and Stealth Checks: You can use cover to make a Stealth check. Without cover, you usually need concealment (see below) to make a Stealth check.

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.

Big Creatures and Cover: Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.

Partial Cover: If a creature has cover, but more than half the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saving throws. This partial cover is subject to the GM's discretion.

Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Improved Cover: In some cases, such as attacking a target hiding behind an arrowslit, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations, the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Stealth checks.

CRB Combat Chapter wrote:

Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)

If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.

If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.

Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat, you don't take this penalty.

Ranged touch attacks are not all weapons, therefore not all of them get the penalty for firing into melee. They all take the penalty for cover however, as the cover rules say ranged attack, not attack with a ranged weapon. However, by this same token, ranged touch attacks that are not rays will not benefit from things that add to weapon damage, such as Inspire Courage, etc. You just have to make sure you are consistent. If I don't get my bonus damage from Arcane Strike on my Acid Splash/Ray of Frost/Disrupt Undead, then I also don't take the penalty for firing into melee.

I was part of the original thread linked above, since some GM's in PFS were ruling that the penalties applied but not allowing the damage buffs to apply since it wasn't a weapon.

[Gwen Smith]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

The "unwritten rule" is that everyone assumes that all ranged touch attacks are weapons. They are not.

[...]
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Skipping over the fact that earlier designers specifically did not use strict terminology and "encyclopedic" language for the rules, you also run into a grammar issue: The exact demarcation line between the two verbs is ambiguous.

It could be
-- If you shoot (a ranged weapon)
or
-- throw a ranged weapon
at a target engaged in melee (which is your reading)

Alternatively, it could be
-- If you shoot (at a target engaged in melee)
or
-- throw a ranged weapon at at a target engaged in melee

Grammatically, both readings are equally valid, but only one supports your argument.

Grammatically, you'd have a stronger argument focusing on the more interesting qualifier: "engaged in melee with a friendly character". Technically, this means that you don't take a -4 against a target engaged in melee with a separate enemy (say, an animal that threatens both parties). I don't know any GMs who would rule it that way, though.