hmmm, I say usually in non-eastern literature mundane fighters usually win with planning and wits. so the fighter would be a master tactician regardless of his int mod(like captain america, not extremely knowledgeable, but has a good wit and feel for a battlefield), this should allow him to as an immediate action perform a move action, and later a standard action, then near end-game a full round action.this would allow the fighter to full-round into the mage as he attempts to cast a spell, making it nigh impossible for him to pass concentration, at the very least he makes a charge attack if he's out of range, while he casts.
I like this idea. It's really two ideas at once -- martials get a better action economy (can do more standard actions in a round) and can do more with immediate actions in particular, to interrupt hostiles. <scribbles notes>
TOO BE CLEAR, WE'VE GOTTEN OFF TRACK AGAIN, NO ONE THINKS A MARTIAL CAN NEVER KILL A MAGE, A MAGE IS SIMPLY A MORE VALUABLE TEAMMATE. seriously a magus, druid, or cleric over a fighter anyday.
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You obviously don't realize how terrible mage's disjunction actually is.round 1: mage cast's mage's disjunction
fighter - charges, hits mageround 2: 5-foot step, mage murders the fighter.
That is one of the worst round 1 opener a high level wizard could go with.
Try this on for size:
Oh no, I am being ambushed by an adventuring party!
Oh Familiar, would you be so kind as to retrieve that scroll of Time Stop for me? That was ten grand well spent. While you do that, I will use the Rod of Quickening that I use as a walking stick to cast Improved Invisibility on myself.
Oh intelligent ring I crafted a few years ago, would you please use your Dominate Monster ability on their Rogue? I'd like him to sunder or steal their primary caster's magical focus.
Now, with the standard action I still have left, I will use that scroll of Time Stop. Hmm. I only rolled two free rounds of time. With my move actions I will fly upward. I sure am glad I cast Overland Flight on myself every morning. While I fly I cast Summon Monster at my highest level. Twice.
My familiar draws Summon Monster scrolls and uses them, twice.
My ring, using it's fairly cheap ability to telekinetically interact with the world around it also uses a scrolls of Summon Monster, and then readies an action to telepathically communicate my wishes to the summoned monsters when Time Stop expires.
Oh look, time has snapped back to normal and it is their turn. Sure glad I'm invisible, 500 feet up, and have all these angry monsters between me and them.
Oh look, the rogue just stole their wizard's spell component pouch, and nobody rolled well enough to notice.
Next round I think I'll cast summon popcorn.
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That is one of the worst round 1 opener a high level wizard could go with.Try this on for size:
Oh no, I am being ambushed by an adventuring party!
Oh Familiar, would you be so kind as to retrieve that scroll of Time Stop for me? That was ten grand well spent. While you do that, I will use the Rod of Quickening that I use as a walking stick to cast Improved Invisibility on myself.
Oh intelligent ring I crafted a few years ago, would you please use your Dominate Monster ability on their Rogue? I'd like him to sunder or steal their primary caster's magical focus.
Now, with the standard action I still have left, I will use that scroll of Time Stop. Hmm. I only rolled two free rounds of time. With my move actions I will fly upward. I sure am glad I cast Overland Flight on myself every morning. While I fly I cast Summon Monster at my highest level. Twice.
My familiar draws Summon Monster scrolls and uses them, twice.
My ring, using it's fairly cheap ability to telekinetically interact with the world around it also uses a scrolls of Summon Monster, and then readies an action to telepathically communicate my wishes to the summoned monsters when Time Stop expires.
Oh look, time has snapped back to normal and it is their turn. Sure glad I'm invisible, 500 feet up, and have all these angry monsters between me and them.
Oh look, the rogue just stole their wizard's spell component pouch, and nobody rolled well enough to notice.
Next round I think I'll cast summon popcorn.
Great post. So what could a collection of martials who aren't bound by Pathfinder rules do in response, under the conditions outlined in the first post?
Let me help you with the first few words. "The rogue is so sneaky that ..." (for rogue, insert any other martial, and for sneaky, substitute other adjectives as necessary)
But very traditional in the source material. The whole fantasy literary genre is about heroes bearding bad guys in their lairs and dealing with them appropriately, before riding off to the next issue of Weird Tales or the next episode of Xenacules, Warrior-Scion. As I mentioned earlier, I'd hate to conclude that the only way for this to work is to abandon a century of what "genre fiction" means.
Thank you. It's been at least fifty posts since someone attempted to describe a winning martial team. I'd very much like not to make 100.Honestly, the winning martial team is the one that lures the mage out of the stronghold with a cleverly designed ruse or lure. Let the mage know that the foreknuckle of Agrast the Sleek has been found and is in a nearby castle.
Because honestly, storming into a wizards' stronghold, going through his defenses and killing him in his inner sanctum is suicidal.
That is one of the traditional methods. But again, your vision is extremely limited.
There are other common variations on the 'boss fight' that could draw the wizard out of the homefield advantage- the race for the macguffin, and the repelled invasion.
The race to the macguffin is simple- it requires you to be after something the wizard values- perhaps he can't immediately get to it since it is guard against simply teleporting in (perhaps he put it in himself to stop other mages). The wizard thus has to move quickly, and thus he doesn't have his whole retinue.
The other is for the wizard to be storming some location, and you are moving to stop him. Perhaps he has decided to take over the king's castle, and he is still setting up shop. Again, this would mean he doesn't have the infinite amount of GM metagamed defense put up. Heck, this could be the scenario where the martials have home court advantage- they are the ones that either know the castle, or they have a guide that knows the castle. Perfect for stabbing the wizard in the back by going through the hidden passage behind the throne.
You need to think of this more dynamically- the wizard is a target because he has actual goals, priorities, and responsibilities. He is more than just a videogame boss waiting right out of aggro range all day. At least, I hope he is. I do not know what kind of games you go to, my good sir.
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Its not so much not with the same level of competence. It is that the villains frequently are overconfident in their abilities. PC's rarely are, for one important reason.
Wait... there are people who DON'T run their BBEGs with the same level of competence as a seasoned PC?Huh, who knew.
BBEG are usually BBEGs and not dead BBEGs because they specifically don't underestimate the group of adventurers that just killed half thier fortress.
you also assume your BBEG is some form of evil and some sort of inhuman individual.
That is one of the traditional methods.But very traditional in the source material. The whole fantasy literary genre is about heroes bearding bad guys in their lairs and dealing with them appropriately, before riding off to the next issue of Weird Tales or the next episode of Xenacules, Warrior-Scion. As I mentioned earlier, I'd hate to conclude that the only way for this to work is to abandon a century of what "genre fiction" means.
Thank you. It's been at least fifty posts since someone attempted to describe a winning martial team. I'd very much like not to make 100.Honestly, the winning martial team is the one that lures the mage out of the stronghold with a cleverly designed ruse or lure. Let the mage know that the foreknuckle of Agrast the Sleek has been found and is in a nearby castle.
Because honestly, storming into a wizards' stronghold, going through his defenses and killing him in his inner sanctum is suicidal.
Yes, and it's the one that I picked for this scenario, because I needed to provide a scenario, and this one is probably the most common and most archetypical. If you want to post another thread about "how can a party of four 17th level martials beat a 20th level caster in a race to the MacGuffin?" that would probably also produce some interesting suggestions about ways to boost the martials. At first glance, the various teleport spells seem like unbeatable advantages, but we can discuss that
... in the other thread.
I thought that was what this thread was about. I'm sure that's what the participants who are posting custom mechanics that address this issue think this thread is about.
The other way is to recalibrate our expectations of what high level martial should be capable of and adjust the mechanics from that point of view.Honestly, I'd rather address part of by nerfing the casters. Recalibrate the martials up and the casters down so they come closer to meeting in the middle. I think that'll actually match most of the literature a lot better.
Sure, it's no longer Pathfinder as we know it, but neither is Pathfinder with the martial boosted.
As for scenarios - Mario Greymist walks into the wizard's tower undetected, unnoticed by any of the wizard's guards or wards and slits his throat while he sleeps or is distracted by whatever amusements 20th level wizards amuse themselves with.
Good reference. Steven Brust's novels do have quite powerful casters and still martials/rogue types do get their stuff. And it highlights that it's all about preparation and getting the jump on the casters.
As it is all inspired by AD&D it's not too far from the actual rules.
I'm a big fan of the Vlad Taltos novels but the homage to Dumas Khaavren Romances set in the past is also awesome.
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Um. Wow, dumb ambushers. Exactly how did you get initiative on them?
Readied action, a flaming arrow shoots the scroll out of your hands. +40 Spot checks and Improved Precise Shot.
Suddenly, no Time Stop.
But let's say it goes off.
Sorry, you only go up 40 feet. Overland flight is slow at 40', you only get a standard action, and you move at half speed ascending.
Time restarts.
The enemy wizard autopasses his Spellcraft, shouts "Summoned Monsters!" as a free action.
the enemy cleric utters Holy Word, clutching his Rod of Greater Widen as he does.
Poof. All summoned monsters go away. You are within the 80' radius of the spell, and the cleric took his +5 spellcaster level buffs just before the fight. You are now paralyzed, blinded and deafened, as is your familiar.
A a quickened illusion overlays you from the party wizard showing everyone exactly where you are.
An arrow of spell holding with Anti-magic Shell hits you, and you plummet down to the ground, taking 4d6 of damage, and you are still paralyzed, blinded, deafened and have no contingents usable.
The party rogue administers one coup de grace to you with a pick for d6+x times 3, +10d6, for about an average 60ish fort save or die instantly.
See how easy instant bad tactics are foiled against a party also prepped? I didn't even get into the opening volley of a sling stone with a combo of glue and Silence attached to it, which would have stopped most of your initial spells and any voice-activated commands in their tracks.
Meh. Theorycrafting.
==Aelryinth
BBEG are usually BBEGs and not dead BBEGs because they specifically don't underestimate the group of adventurers that just killed half your fortress.Ahem... *Pulls on my Evil Villain Helmet*
"I don't know how you pitiful, so-called, heroes got in here but your journey and your lives end here. You may have bested my men, but they were weak and pitiful compared to me, mere minions that I can replace with but a threat of death and a handful of gold. You... On the other hand... You proved yourselves marginally capable, so I offer you a choice... You can either join me... Or die."
Because the minions aren't on the power level of the BBEG. Beating his minions doesn't mean that you can beat him. They were his minions he could beat them without breaking a sweat or he wouldn't have employed them anyway. Thus your argument doesn't hold so well. Especially in fantasy literature.
If your villain is "realistic" then look at the examples I gave. Very powerful real world people. Who had dozens of underlings. Who were, for the most part, pretty successful at what they did until they failed. They have these flaws. Why shouldn't a BBEG who has massive magical power...
After all... You have pointed out in this thread...
He's so much better than a puny Martial anyway. What possible threat could they pose to him?
*puts on villian cap*
"well looks like I need a new fortress"
*flies through the ceiling the entire fortress starts to collapse as you hear explosions ring out from above*
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I this should allow him to as an immediate action perform a move action, and later a standard action, then near end-game a full round action.
this would allow the fighter to full-round into the mage as he attempts to cast a spell, making it nigh impossible for him to pass concentration, at the very least he makes a charge attack if he's out of range, while he casts.
I have house rules altering movement and action economy:
1. Everyone can take a half-move and still full attack, and there's a pounce feat to allow a full move and attack. You can divide up movement into 5-ft. increments and use them in any order with attacks, so a BAB +11 guy with speed 30 ft. could move 5 ft., attack twice, move another 10 ft. and make his 3rd attack (for example). Pouncing barbarians and flurrying monks love this.
2. Everyone gets 1 immediate action/rd. at BAB +1, and another at BAB +6, +11, +16 (Combat Reflexes can increase this number). A "swift action" is simply an immediate action taken during your turn. Attacks of opportunity are redefined as types of immediate actions.
3. "Flanking" and "aid another" both just mean that an ally within reach is spending an immediate action helping you. That means you don't have to be at exact opposite locations on a grid or whatever. The rogue loves this.
4. You don't have to use your move action or iterative attacks on your turn; you can wait, and use each of them later by spending an immediate action to activate them. Doing so can interrupt other people's actions. The speed 30 ft., BAB +11 guy above, with his 3 immediate actions, could attack twice, then wait, then move 15 ft. and attack again by spending 2 of his 3 immediate actions.
This provides a lot more mobility for martial characters, allows them to interrupt spellcasting, allows them to intercept attacks made against their teammates, etc.
The party convinces the wizard, through arguments, stories, and amusing antics, that a life of evil is completely stupid and unfulfilling and they would be much happier coming over to the side of altruism or at least not making the poor low-level people stuffer.
...because against Diplomacy... there IS no save. Bwahahahahahaha!
Really, King Irovetti, do you have to do that after EVERY negotiation?
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I'm having fun with this.
Time Stop. Hmm...Prismatic Sphere. Invisibility on Prismatic Sphere. Fog Cloud.
Time Stop. Hmm. I don't know how many Maximized Delayed Blast Fireballs it's going to take to kill these idiots, but I know how many I'm going to use...
I don't feel like Time Stop today. Quickened Prismatic Wall. Crushing Hand.
I have a Controlled Dread Wraith in a bag of holding. I've been tossing in goblins from the warren under my keep for a few years now. No idea how many are in there. They don't weigh anything, so it's not like the bag will ever get full. Want to count them with me?
My hobby is casting Trap the Soul on Shoggoths. There's a dozen of them in this grenade. Catch!
Um. Wow, dumb ambushers. Exactly how did you get initiative on them?
Readied action, a flaming arrow shoots the scroll out of your hands. +40 Spot checks and Improved Precise Shot.
Suddenly, no Time Stop.
But let's say it goes off.
Sorry, you only go up 40 feet. Overland flight is slow at 40', you only get a standard action, and you move at half speed ascending.
Time restarts.
The enemy wizard autopasses his Spellcraft, shouts "Summoned Monsters!" as a free action.
the enemy cleric utters Holy Word, clutching his Rod of Greater Widen as he does.
Poof. All summoned monsters go away. You are within the 80' radius of the spell, and the cleric took his +5 spellcaster level buffs just before the fight. You are now paralyzed, blinded and deafened, as is your familiar.
A a quickened illusion overlays you from the party wizard showing everyone exactly where you are.
An arrow of spell holding with Anti-magic Shell hits you, and you plummet down to the ground, taking 4d6 of damage, and you are still paralyzed, blinded, deafened and have no contingents usable.
The party rogue administers one coup de grace to you with a pick for d6+x times 3, +10d6, for about an average 60ish fort save or die instantly.
See how easy instant bad tactics are foiled against a party also prepped? I didn't even get into the opening volley of a sling stone with a combo of glue and Silence attached to it, which would have stopped most of your initial spells and any voice-activated commands in their tracks.
Meh. Theorycrafting.
==Aelryinth
Did you miss the part where they are all martial characters without spell casting ability of any kind?
I'm having fun with this.
Time Stop. Hmm...Prismatic Sphere. Invisibility on Prismatic Sphere. Fog Cloud.
Is a spell effect "you, a creature, or an object"? This could be an issue.
I this should allow him to as an immediate action perform a move action, and later a standard action, then near end-game a full round action.
this would allow the fighter to full-round into the mage as he attempts to cast a spell, making it nigh impossible for him to pass concentration, at the very least he makes a charge attack if he's out of range, while he casts.
I have house rules altering movement and action economy:
1. Everyone can take a half-move and still full attack, and there's a pounce feat to allow a full move and attack. You can divide up movement into 5-ft. increments and use them in any order with attacks, so a BAB +11 guy with speed 30 ft. could move 5 ft., attack twice, move another 10 ft. and make his 3rd attack (for example). Pouncing barbarians and flurrying monks love this.
2. Everyone gets 1 immediate action/rd. at BAB +1, and another at BAB +6, +11, +16 (Combat Reflexes can increase this number). A "swift action" is simply an immediate action taken during your turn. Attacks of opportunity are redefined as types of immediate actions.
3. "Flanking" and "aid another" both just mean that an ally within reach is spending an immediate action helping you. That means you don't have to be at exact opposite locations on a grid or whatever. The rogue loves this.
4. You don't have to use your move action or iterative attacks on your turn; you can wait, and use each of them later by spending an immediate action to activate them. Doing so can interrupt other people's actions. The speed 30 ft., BAB +11 guy above, with his 3 immediate actions, could attack twice, then wait, then move 15 ft. and attack again by spending 2 of his 3 immediate actions.
This provides a lot more mobility for martial characters, allows them to interrupt spellcasting, allows them to intercept attacks made against their teammates, etc.
Do you find that these house rules slow combat down?
Is a spell effect "you, a creature, or an object"? This could be an issue.I'm having fun with this.
Time Stop. Hmm...Prismatic Sphere. Invisibility on Prismatic Sphere. Fog Cloud.
The creature or object touched becomes invisible.
Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall.
Pretty sure walls are objects.
Did you miss the part where they are all martial characters without spell casting ability of any kind?Um. Wow, dumb ambushers. Exactly how did you get initiative on them?
Readied action, a flaming arrow shoots the scroll out of your hands. +40 Spot checks and Improved Precise Shot.
Suddenly, no Time Stop.
But let's say it goes off.
Sorry, you only go up 40 feet. Overland flight is slow at 40', you only get a standard action, and you move at half speed ascending.
Time restarts.
The enemy wizard autopasses his Spellcraft, shouts "Summoned Monsters!" as a free action.
the enemy cleric utters Holy Word, clutching his Rod of Greater Widen as he does.
Poof. All summoned monsters go away. You are within the 80' radius of the spell, and the cleric took his +5 spellcaster level buffs just before the fight. You are now paralyzed, blinded and deafened, as is your familiar.
A a quickened illusion overlays you from the party wizard showing everyone exactly where you are.
An arrow of spell holding with Anti-magic Shell hits you, and you plummet down to the ground, taking 4d6 of damage, and you are still paralyzed, blinded, deafened and have no contingents usable.
The party rogue administers one coup de grace to you with a pick for d6+x times 3, +10d6, for about an average 60ish fort save or die instantly.
See how easy instant bad tactics are foiled against a party also prepped? I didn't even get into the opening volley of a sling stone with a combo of glue and Silence attached to it, which would have stopped most of your initial spells and any voice-activated commands in their tracks.
Meh. Theorycrafting.
==Aelryinth
As a matter of fact, I did.
So, tell me how you're overcoming the readied actions of the archers there to shoot you if you use magic (or your familiar, that scroll is a prime target), the rogue coming out of invisibility waaaay past your perception roll with a Mind Blank from UMD scroll up to stop your Foresight, and with a holy word also on scroll (since your familiar can use UMD, I suppose the rogue can), sticking a ball with sovereign glue to you treated with a silence spell?
I mean, you're playing them as idiots, not people who think they are going to kill a wizard.
Sure, they need magical items. But the fact is, facing two archers, you're never going to get a reliable spell off, and if the rogue silences you first, then you get hit with a Dimensional Lock weapon and/or a dispelling weapon, you aren't going anywhere.
So, meh.
Dread Wraiths take up space and probably won't fit too many in that bag.
Trap the Stone gems eat up a lot of WBL. What will you do when the fighter actually does catch it and tosses it back at you, surrounding you with a bunch of shoggoths you trapped and imprisoned?
==Aelryinth
Do you find that these house rules slow combat down?
Not in our case. We don't use a battlemat (hence the looser flanking rules), and we embrace rocket tag as the logical endpoint of people's abilities. Combats are usually over by the time people start using their held actions. In real time, most combats at median levels (say, 7th-8th) take maybe 15 minutes, tops. One major fight with 5 PCs and 3 henchmen vs. a boss plus bodyguards took maybe 40 minutes, but that's only because it devolved into an inflict-ability-damage heal-ability-damage contest, until the rogue finally got clear of the bodyguards and sneaked up to gank the BBEG.
One major impact is that full BAB classes get WAY more mileage out of this than their peers, shifting the action economy scales in their favor. Standard casting is full-round for us, so the wizard is still only throwing 1 spell (or 1 spell and a quickened spell). And at the table, in my experience, resolving spellcasting takes a lot longer than resolving attacks.
As a matter of fact, I did.
Did you miss the part where they are all martial characters without spell casting ability of any kind?
You might want to read the first post in the thread to get a better understanding of the rules of this challenge.
I thought that was what this thread was about. I'm sure that's what the participants who are posting custom mechanics that address this issue think this thread is about.
The other way is to recalibrate our expectations of what high level martial should be capable of and adjust the mechanics from that point of view.Honestly, I'd rather address part of by nerfing the casters. Recalibrate the martials up and the casters down so they come closer to meeting in the middle. I think that'll actually match most of the literature a lot better.
Sure, it's no longer Pathfinder as we know it, but neither is Pathfinder with the martial boosted.
As for scenarios - Mario Greymist walks into the wizard's tower undetected, unnoticed by any of the wizard's guards or wards and slits his throat while he sleeps or is distracted by whatever amusements 20th level wizards amuse themselves with.
Good reference. Steven Brust's novels do have quite powerful casters and still martials/rogue types do get their stuff. And it highlights that it's all about preparation and getting the jump on the casters.
As it is all inspired by AD&D it's not too far from the actual rules.
I'm a big fan of the Vlad Taltos novels but the homage to Dumas Khaavren Romances set in the past is also awesome.
Of course, Vlad is himself a witch and has Spellbreaker.
Did you miss the part where they are all martial characters without spell casting ability of any kind?
As a matter of fact, I did.
So, tell me how you're overcoming the readied actions of the archers there to shoot you if you use magic (or your familiar, that scroll is a prime target), the rogue coming out of invisibility waaaay past your perception roll with a Mind Blank from UMD scroll up to stop your...
My body's in my Demiplane, I'm Astrally Projected and interacting with the world through a Projected Image because I'm a paranoid wizard who adventurers are gunning for?
We can theory craft this all the way to the top, but you know the wizard is going to win. You'd be doing the same thing if the rolls were reversed. I've seen you do it. You're only in it because you like to argue.
It all ends with Snowcone Wish Machine and/or a bag of marbles covered in Symbols and Glyphs.
Let's get back on the subject of trying to fix what's broken.
Trap the Stone gems eat up a lot of WBL. What will you do when the fighter actually does catch it and tosses it back at you, surrounding you with a bunch of shoggoths you trapped and imprisoned?
We're supposed to be using RAW.
WBL are suggested guidelines, not hard rules.
High level casters throw WBL out the window. Polymorph Object and Fabricate equal infinite money and any weird reagents anyone could possibly dream up.
Also, "catch" is dumb. You're right about that. A smart wizard will just throw their Shoggoth Grenade at a square near the enemies and cast summon popcorn.
It's kinda like if the Random Race Worldbuilding Exercise thread got derailed by the "weird races special snowflake" arguing. :PI knew that was a trap as soon as i saw it. Rocks fell. Thread died.
Glad I stayed out of it.
What? Hardly. The thread goes slow every now and then because it's a demanding creative exercise, but it's not "dead". It's just more challenging than the "x is OP" threads.
Anyway, the solution to all this, make the martials magical then...the end.
you know what let's just add half casting to every single class that doesn't have casting yet with their own spell list.
You said:
"The fighter, presumably, wants to hit the wizard with a bit of sharpened metal. The wizard, not being a fool, would like to prevent that, and has a number of tools at her disposal to do so. Mirror image is one obvious possibility, as is invisibility or gaseous form."Lets assume that the Wizard has these set up in advance too, so this is a fight that the Wizard prepared for. Thus I am going to assume that the Fighter has equal planning.
The Fighter, knowing they might face magic, is packing the following items:
1. Spellscorch
2. A Helm of True Seeing (What Fighter DOESN'T try to get one of these?)
3. Boots of Haste
4. A Magical Weapon with (at least one universal quality) and the Dispelling property.Round 1:
The Mage casts Invisibility.The Fighter runs up and smacks with the Spellscorch.
Round 2:
The Mage takes a 5ft step to avoid the AoO and casts Gaseous form.The Fighter takes a 5 ft-step and performs a full attack action. On the first one he hits with he uses his Dispelling property, which he had paid a 17th level caster to imbue into the sword, intending to dispel the gaseous form. The caster pops back into substantiality and the Fighter continues to wail on him. He swaps out his second attack with a Trip. Then he wails on the prone Wizard with the remaining strikes. The Wizard is looking a little scared at this point.
Round 3:
The Mage tries to cast Teleport, but due to the Spellscorch and the Fighter who wails on him at the AoO it doesn't work. The wizard decides to use a move action to stand, assuming the Fighter is out of spells. Gets a shock when he does a 2nd AoO due to combat reflexes.The Fighter continues to blender the Mage. The Mage dies.
The Wizard casts Mage's Disjunction.
What were we saying?
HWalsh
Round 1:
The Mage casts Invisibility....The Wizard casts Mage's Disjunction.
What were we saying?
The wizard doesn't cast Disjunction.
The wizard also doesn't cast Invisibility.
We've been over this.
Yes, and it's the one that I picked for this scenario, because I needed to provide a scenario, and this one is probably the most common and most archetypical. If you want to post another thread about "how can a party of four 17th level martials beat a 20th level caster in a race to the MacGuffin?" that would probably also produce some interesting suggestions about ways to boost the martials. At first glance, the various teleport spells seem like unbeatable advantages, but we can discuss that
... in the other thread.
Still, it is an option- if the martials can't compete with the wizard in the current situation (with his base, and traps, and summoned monsters), then they simply wait until an opportunity to strike when conditions are better.
That is one of the advantages of table top games- you can often tweak the plot and develop your own solutions to problems. You don't NEED to railroad yourself.
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I have a Controlled Dread Wraith in a bag of holding. I've been tossing in goblins from the warren under my keep for a few years now. No idea how many are in there. They don't weigh anything, so it's not like the bag will ever get full. Want to count them with me?
The mage reaches for the bag of holding...and realizes it isn't there. The rogue, using his web of informants, knew about the steadily disappearing goblins into the bag and guessed what was up. He's already stolen it. The rogue has replaced it with a bag of devouring. The mage gets grappled and eaten. Too bad wizards can't cast freedom of movement.
The mage reaches into the bag of holding. The gunslinger, thinking quickly, shoots the bag out of his hand. The brawler runs up and stuffs the mage in. Bad news: Even if infinite wraiths can be in there, the bag has limited cubic space. There is nowhere to move. You are in a sea of wraiths. There is no way to not touch them. Too bad wizards can't cast death ward.
The mage opens the bag of holding. Wraiths begin to emerge, but the fighter's and brawler's conviction is so great their sword and fists can cut and bash them as easily as anything, and they're emerging in so dense a space, the fighter is killing vast quantities with every swing. The ranger's perfect vision picks out the dread wraith at the very bottom of the bag and lets loose a single perfect shot, slaying the wraith. The rogue steps in and cheerfully convinces the now uncontrolled goblin wraiths to turn on their murderer. The mage is swarmed by infinite wraiths before he can even teleport—too bad his contingency was for HP damage, not ability drain.
The rogue rigs the mage's numerous artifacts to overload, and the team escapes as the whole castle is destroyed in a wave of magical energy.
EDIT: Ooh, neat! Wraiths are actually pretty scary to a mage, since they can ignore a lot of a mage's best defenses—mirror image, displacement, mage armor, stoneskin, and basically everything else that buffs HP and non-touch AC. Wraiths have both Blind-Fight and Lifesense, so concealment and the like is pretty much ineffective. And Fortitude saves aren't a mage's strong suit. I'm sure I'm missing some obscure trick here, but taking 26 touch attacks per round is probably going to hurt (nine in the floor, nine above, eight surround).
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Months prior, the rogue built strong underworld connections, and through her blackmarket ties was able to get all needed magical items at 1/2 price.
A few weeks prior to the raid, the rogue and the ranger go scout out the tower. Naturally, the rogue is able to bypass every trap, sensor, and guard.
Scouting out the area, the rogue gives the ranger a foolproof disguise in seconds, and constructs a disguise for herself that can even trick lifesense and divinations.
The team then sneaks into a laboratory after some time, needing to slay the undead guards and bypass over 100 traps, and to their infinite surprise find a grotesque collection of cadavers, all identical to the wizard. Upon closer inspection, the ranger notices that they don't just look like the wizard, they seem to be identical. The rogue then finds the instruction manual and realizes that these must be his clones. They stuff one in a bag of holding and coat it in the ungent of revivification just in case they need to bring him back alive, and then proceed to sabotage the rest of the clones. The rogue at this point uses his intricate knowledge of anatomy to put small cuts on each clone, inpercievable by most, that would instantly slay them if they started to move.
Then, just as they are leaving, the wizard starts his daily role call (to keep adventurers out), but the rogue is able to trigger a few dozen alarm traps which gives them enough time to escape. But, as the wizard gets near them (to see to the problem), the ranger notices something. He is familiar with humans, knowing how they look, smell, sound, etc. and realizes something is off about this guy. He quickly then takes the scent of the clones, compares the two, and learns something invaluable: the wizard is really on another plane. This is just an astral projection.
Regrouping, the fighter and brawler are irritated that the plan they'd had for months was just shot, but aren't surprised. Wizards are usually smart after all. The fighter, a genius tactician, is able to spend the next hour thinking like the wizard. He knows a lot from months of spying, and is able to picture where the wizard is with an accuracy no diviner could match. In his private demiplane surrounded by simulacra tarrasques and balors. After buying a few scrolls, they are ready to move.
They plane shift there, landing exactly where they wanted thanks to the rogue's incredible skill with magic items. Here, the brawler steps up, and starts throwing monsters left and right. She picks up a tarrasque simulacra and throws it into a bound greater fire elemental, melting the former into water that extinguishes the latter. With a swift series of kicks she is able to fell a pit fiend copy, leaving it too stunned to retaliate.
The ranger meanwhile has been slinging arrows left and right, breaking spells and melting sno-cone copies. He is able to shoot with such incredible timing that an arrow seems to puncture an enemy throat right before they cast a spell. The fighter meanwhile is able to slay enemies with a single swipe of his mighty blade. When he can't get to one, he glares so fiercely it breaks the enemy's loyalty, even if they have no free will, causing them to drop down, either dead or faking. Wading througb, they get to the wizard and plane shift him back to the astral plane.
They then set up the clone they captured, binding it in chains that are unescapable by any means thanks to the brawler's immense strength, and for good measure they delicately remove the wizard's vocal cords. Nothing regeneration can't fix, but it'll be a while before he casts spells. Then they coup de grave the astral wizard, and he wakes up in a clone and is given to the authorities for a quick execution.
Aww, nobody critiqued my suggestions (#162, back on page 4). That'll teach me to put stuff behind spoiler tags. :P
Try this on for size:Oh no, I am being ambushed by an adventuring party!
Oh Familiar, would you be so kind as to retrieve that scroll of Time Stop for me? That was ten grand well spent. While you do that, I will use the Rod of Quickening that I use as a walking stick to cast Improved Invisibility on myself.
Oh intelligent ring I crafted a few years ago, would you please use your Dominate Monster ability on their Rogue? I'd like him to sunder or steal their primary caster's magical focus.
Now, with the standard action I still have left, I will use that scroll of Time Stop. Hmm. I only rolled two free rounds of time. With my move actions I will fly upward. I sure am glad I cast Overland Flight on myself every morning. While I fly I cast Summon Monster at my highest level. Twice.
My familiar draws Summon Monster scrolls and uses them, twice.
My ring, using it's fairly cheap ability to telekinetically interact with the world around it also uses a scrolls of Summon Monster, and then readies an action to telepathically communicate my wishes to the summoned monsters when Time Stop expires.
Oh look, time has snapped back to normal and it is their turn. Sure glad I'm invisible, 500 feet up, and have all these angry monsters between me and them.
Oh look, the rogue just stole their wizard's spell component pouch, and nobody rolled well enough to notice.
Next round I think I'll cast summon popcorn.
I may be overlooking something, but your wizard appears to be breaking a few rules. It's entirely possible that I'm being a dummy, in which case I apologize and ask for clarification. =]
How are they both moving and casting a 1 round cast-time spell at the same time? Are you burning all of your Quicken Rod's uses right at the beginning?
Some people would argue the point of whether you can summon in mid-air due to the "support" qualifier in Summon Monster. Personally, I could be persuaded either way, but the argument could be made that you could only summon incorporeal creatures in midair.
How is your familiar doing anything during your Time Stop? The CRB says "make time cease to flow for everyone but you … all other creatures seem frozen" and your familiar counts as a different creature than you.
Even if they could act during your Time Stop, how would they both draw scrolls AND read them in the same round? A scroll takes as long to cast a spell from as the spell itself (in this case, 1 round), and retrieving an item is normally a move action.
An intelligent item can't get Dominate Monster, according to the CRB. Did you mean Dominate Person? Regardless, I have a hard time believing the party wouldn't have Protection from Evil or an equivalent effect from items. Speaking of which, how is your intelligent item acting during your Time Stop? The page linked above says that intelligent items are treated as creatures (constructs), which means they're limited in the same way as your familiar.
Regardless, your intelligent item can't activate scrolls, even if you give it senses and read magic, at least by my reading of the read magic ability. I don't know what telekinetic ability you're talking about, but neither Mage Hand nor Telekinesis allows the activation of scrolls, and Telekinesis is nowhere close to being cheap, requiring +90,000gp to add to your item.
BTW, I do agree that the wizard has many excellent options available to them; I just don't know how your proposal works. =]
Months prior, the rogue built strong underworld connections, and through her blackmarket ties was able to get all needed magical items at 1/2 price.
A few weeks prior to the raid, the rogue and the ranger go scout out the tower. Naturally, the rogue is able to bypass every trap, sensor, and guard.
Scouting out the area, the rogue gives the ranger a foolproof disguise in seconds, and constructs a disguise for herself that can even trick lifesense and divinations.
The team then sneaks into a laboratory after some time, needing to slay the undead guards and bypass over 100 traps, and to their infinite surprise find a grotesque collection of cadavers, all identical to the wizard. Upon closer inspection, the ranger notices that they don't just look like the wizard, they seem to be identical. The rogue then finds the instruction manual and realizes that these must be his clones. They stuff one in a bag of holding and coat it in the ungent of revivification just in case they need to bring him back alive, and then proceed to sabotage the rest of the clones. The rogue at this point uses his intricate knowledge of anatomy to put small cuts on each clone, inpercievable by most, that would instantly slay them if they started to move.
Then, just as they are leaving, the wizard starts his daily role call (to keep adventurers out), but the rogue is able to trigger a few dozen alarm traps which gives them enough time to escape. But, as the wizard gets near them (to see to the problem), the ranger notices something. He is familiar with humans, knowing how they look, smell, sound, etc. and realizes something is off about this guy. He quickly then takes the scent of the clones, compares the two, and learns something invaluable: the wizard is really on another plane. This is just an astral projection.
Regrouping, the fighter and brawler are irritated that the plan they'd had for months was just shot, but aren't surprised. Wizards are usually smart after all. The fighter, a genius tactician, is able to...
Like it! Nice to see the astral wizard and his clones get it. The scrolls break the rules, but that's all right, since the ranger is so good at tracking, he can find the wizard even across planes (see upthread).
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...Months prior, the rogue built strong underworld connections, and through her blackmarket ties was able to get all needed magical items at 1/2 price.
A few weeks prior to the raid, the rogue and the ranger go scout out the tower. Naturally, the rogue is able to bypass every trap, sensor, and guard.
Scouting out the area, the rogue gives the ranger a foolproof disguise in seconds, and constructs a disguise for herself that can even trick lifesense and divinations.
The team then sneaks into a laboratory after some time, needing to slay the undead guards and bypass over 100 traps, and to their infinite surprise find a grotesque collection of cadavers, all identical to the wizard. Upon closer inspection, the ranger notices that they don't just look like the wizard, they seem to be identical. The rogue then finds the instruction manual and realizes that these must be his clones. They stuff one in a bag of holding and coat it in the ungent of revivification just in case they need to bring him back alive, and then proceed to sabotage the rest of the clones. The rogue at this point uses his intricate knowledge of anatomy to put small cuts on each clone, inpercievable by most, that would instantly slay them if they started to move.
Then, just as they are leaving, the wizard starts his daily role call (to keep adventurers out), but the rogue is able to trigger a few dozen alarm traps which gives them enough time to escape. But, as the wizard gets near them (to see to the problem), the ranger notices something. He is familiar with humans, knowing how they look, smell, sound, etc. and realizes something is off about this guy. He quickly then takes the scent of the clones, compares the two, and learns something invaluable: the wizard is really on another plane. This is just an astral projection.
Regrouping, the fighter and brawler are irritated that the plan they'd had for months was just shot, but aren't surprised. Wizards are usually smart after all. The fighter,
Ah, sorry. I spent so much time catching up to this thread I forgot about that.
The Wizard casts Mage's Disjunction.What were we saying?
The Wizard was struck with a 2-Handed Great Sword during the AoO or readied action, while the fighter had a +6 strength modifier, the Weapon is +4 by itself, +4 additional from the weapon training, +2 for specialization, +3 for the extra strength +2d6 for the weapon itself... Probably a lot more but that is a short list... Assume a 3 and a 4 for the damage base so +7, +2 for greater weapon spec... And probably 2d6 damage additionally for the floating enchantment, lets assume a 7 again.
35 damage (Yeah I could get it higher than this... I don't need to though for this example)
The Wizard has to make a Concentration check equal to 10+9+26 = 54
The Wizard (in your scenario is at least level 17) has a +17 from his class level lets be fair and give him an additional +6 and say he's as smart as the Fighter is strong, and lets give him +8 more in misc. bonuses so a total of a +31... Yeah... Hope ya get a natural 20 or you ain't casting jack.
Oh right... Another +5 to the DC for the Spellscorch... So... Yeah... 1d20 + 31 vs DC 59... Math said no at DC 54... Its really saying no now...
Lets give the Wizard another benefit of the doubt... Lets give the wizard an additional +10 in misc bonuses... 1d20+41 vs. DC 59... Sure... On a natural 18, 19, or 20... You might be able to cast that spell...
Oh you want to claim that no 17th level wizard will have *only* a +6 Intelligence? Well... We can claim it... And you're probably right, the warrior probably has greater than a +6 strength too... So lets ramp that up... Lets give them a +10...
Well that is just worse for the poor wizard...
Now the Wizard has a 1d20+45 but the weapon increases the damage of the Warrior (2 handed after all) by not only the additional +4, but also by +2 for the 50% again...
So... You know... 1d20+45 vs DC 65.
Now you have to get a natural 20...
Yeah... Prolly not gonna happen...
This is way too many numbers to be on this thread. I suggest you take the conversation elsewhere.
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And why are we arguing about this? The argument seems to have started based around a way for a lone rules-abiding fighter to defeat a rules-abiding wizard, largely via the fighter's gear. That is not on-topic at all.
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...
* A party of high level (17th level) martials is taking on a high-level caster (18th level caster, plus enough minions to make it a CR 20 encounter).
* The encounter is taking place in the caster's stronghold. Think, if you like, of Conan encountering the evil wizard at the top of his tower. This gives the caster the home field advantage plus all the prep time in the world.
* The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.
* The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate.
* The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words.And, most importantly
* The party has to win, and win awesomely, so that everyone has a good time....
So the party has no right to use any spells.
I will also under your rule assume that all and any magical gear that duplicate effect from a spell is illegal, so no ring of invisibility, ring of freedom of movement, no rod of absorption, no holy avengers, ect...That leave us with magical gear that will be very hard to use in direct combat with even a moderately optimized spell caster. No way to become ethereal and spy on the villain, no wait to meld with stone to go through the castle walls.
You could always buy rings of x-ray vision a bunch of adamantine shovels and dig under the castle, find where the villain his beds sheets and apply a generous amount of contact poison, each exposure (must be more than on all night) will increase the DC by 2, a rogue with proper gear and feats at level 17 can run around with +50 stealth easy, since stealth is not a magical effect that detection invisibility, true sight and other trick like that would not work, then there always the risk that there is a bunch of alarm spells, especially in the wizard bedroom.
He has however one vulnerability, there is not one magical item in pathfinder that can even remove it. The wizard in question must go #2 once a while. Generous amount of contact poison (Black lotus extract) on the rim of the latrines, the door handles and the toilet paper.
Also maybe digging a 500 feet pit underneath the wizard bed and placing enough exploding powder underneath it could be a great idea, the wizard could always feather fall.
But the one even bigger problem the wizard probably has a bunch of clones. I vote for non lethal damage until the wizard fall unconscious at what point the party will force the unconscious wizard the breath in 40 doses of Ungol dust (the DC will be too high at some point and the charisma drain should mess him for good.)
Contingency spell would be another problem, the wizard could have a lot of countermeasure at the note "fall unconscious", luckily the wizard can only have one such spell active at any given time. I have yet to find a proper counter for a wizard that will run away that way while not using any other spell to mess him up. No dimensional anchor, no scrying, no anti magic zone.
All that to say your challenge is badly designed, write a better one please. This one forces too many undefined factor and variables.