What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

201 to 250 of 1,366 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

alexd1976 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

So, regarding Project Image, is the consensus that regardless of whether or not you make your save...

it does nothing?

I mean, why even allow a save if making it doesn't do anything?

Seriously.

Making the save means you recognize it as a SHADOW EFFECT.
That means it does 20% normal damage.

Also, you gotta maintain line of effect to it... so it isn't that great.

Please, PLEASE cast that spell on me, I will gladly take 1/5th damage.

but the spells it casts aren't shadow effects...

LOL!

Okay, if people want to read it that way, then delete the save being allowed, and delete the line of text about objects acting as if having made the save, as CLEARLY the person writing the spell made a mistake.

*walks away shaking his head*

Point 1) There is no general rule for 20% damage from Shadow Effects. That's specific to the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration/etc spells that let you duplicate other spell effects. This spell does not say that, therefore it does not apply.

Point 2) I have no idea what "Objects are affected by the projected image as if they had succeeded on their Will save" means. Perhaps that the illusion itself, despite being shadow illusion and therefore partly real, can't physically interact with objects - pick them up, move them, whatever.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i'm inclined to agree with thejeff on point 2, I feel it means that they cannot interact. limits the spell nicely enough but i suppose mage hand is a thing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I was looking at Conjuration Shadow effects.

My apologies, I was VERY wrong about this.

Still wonder why it bothers talking saving throws for objects, however.

Sorry for wasting time on this one.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:

I was looking at Conjuration Shadow effects.

My apologies, I was VERY wrong about this.

Still wonder why it bothers talking saving throws for objects, however.

Sorry for wasting time on this one.

it's okay

*awkward pat pat hug*


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
people crying anime yet ignoring people from the western myths like Cu Chulainn pulled off the same stuff regularly

Of course they are. That doesn't make them like it anymore. Nor is crying anime a rational reason to not let stuff into the game. But people don't like it.

And Cu Chulainn was Mythic, so there's no need to give that kind of thing to normal fighters. :)

I want to retread on this.

I concede that Cu Chulainn is Mythic, but high level martials SHOULD have abilities on the level of what some Mythic Path give, otherwise there's no point at being high level if you can't do crazy stuff.

If people want "realism" in their table, they should cap martials at lower level (maybe 6) and make them face level-appropriate monsters forever.

Because it's not actually feasible to demand Fighters to be chained by "realism" and still be able to punch elder dragons in the face

(On top of that withstanding their fiery breath that can melt stone into lava)


Bandw2 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I was looking at Conjuration Shadow effects.

My apologies, I was VERY wrong about this.

Still wonder why it bothers talking saving throws for objects, however.

Sorry for wasting time on this one.

it's okay

*awkward pat pat hug*

Now I think that spell is way OP, and poorly written. :P

god I hate casters so much.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

A lot of people seem to equate martial and mundane as the same thing, when it is not. We've got magical martials like the Paladin and Barbarian.

Then we've got the mundane martials, who have a limited super weight as the Badass Normal. Their niche by definition limits them to suck later on. They need a new niche so they can do things beyond the mundane.

Sovereign Court

frankly its not as bad as people make it seems...

Pure martial are easily the best in early levels (power attack with two handed sword simple and efficient), most games are made with early levels in mind. Most campaigns from what people are saying on forum end around level 13-14, yeah the pure martial start to become weaker around these levels but the majority of the game, they are actually enjoying killing enemies in one or two hits.

I only played 3 campaigns which went above level 15. One is ongoing at the moment and the others two are over.

I mean isn't the balance enough that martial are good in early levels and weaker in higher level?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
And Cu Chulainn was Mythic, so there's no need to give that kind of thing to normal fighters. :)

The whole Mythic system does nothing but refuse to acknowledge the problem. Casters are already doing stuff way beyond anything that anyone can do in mythology, so they're hyper-mythic right out of the Core rulebook. Adding perks is pointless. Meanwhile, martials should also be getting mythic abilities as they level, as part of their normal class progressions, and they're not.


Eltacolibre wrote:
I mean isn't the balance enough that martial are good in early levels and weaker in higher level?

People enjoy playing level-based games because they like their characters to get better as they progress.

Casters get that in spades.

Martials get bigger numbers, yes, but despite that they get progressively less competent (both as compared to their caster peers and as compared to their foes) as they level. That's the exact OPPOSITE of what a level-based system should be doing.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the whole "linear fighter quadratic wizard" thing is accurate, but kind of a bad description. It presents the issue like a graph where one line goes straight and the other line goes up.

I's actually worse than that. The fighter's line should actually go down.

I think of it more like pyramids.

Wizards are an upside down pyramid. They start out with a small number of options and get more and more layered on as they level up. They never lose the old ones, and if they're doing it right they can just trade out their old staples for support abilities that remain effective long into the late game.

Fighters are a regular pyramid. They start out with all the options in the world. They're exactly as good at any combat maneuver as they are at hitting people. They can use whatever weapon they want with pretty much equal skill. The whole combat system is in their golf bag. As they level up they are forced to pick a schtick. The higher level they go the fewer options are viable and the more locked into their schtick they get. If they try to use the options they had at lower levels, they're practically guaranteed to fail. If they try to retrain old options they probably lose access to their higher abilities since they are all chained together.

Casters never have problems like that. If a wizard stops memorizing Burning Hands they don't lose access to Fireball.

It's a profound difference in design philosophy that has to be addressed if any headway on the caster/martial disparity is going to be made.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Meh, Fighters build a pillar. Wizards build a pyramid.

Fighters have the same options, the numbers get bigger.

Wizards have more and more and more options and versatility, and everything gets bigger.

It's much easier to break a pillar then a pyramid, too.

==Aelryinth


Some more ideas on how to defeat casters.

Have a flying mount.

Wear a full suit of lead plated armour to foil scrying attempts. Not sure how that works with spells such as Contact Other Plane though. Most deities can probably get through lead plated armour so I guess it depends on who exactly you contact. This nullifies a lot of the BATMAN WITH PREP TIME LOLSTOMPS arguments.

Use alchemical remedies such as antiplague and antitoxin.

Always have one polymorph spell on you at a time so that you can simply no-sell offensive polymorph spells

Edit: Actually lead only nullifies scrying spells and most of those are the weaker divination spells anyway so never mind.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aelryinth wrote:

Meh, Fighters build a pillar. Wizards build a pyramid.

Fighters have the same options, the numbers get bigger.

Wizards have more and more and more options and versatility, and everything gets bigger.

It's much easier to break a pillar then a pyramid, too.

==Aelryinth

I don't think a fighter is a pillar.

Each given an opponent of appropriate challenge, a high level fighter without trip feats will have a harder time of landing a trip maneuver than a first level fighter will.

Low level fighters have more options than high level ones because the system hasn't forced them to hyperspecialize yet.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The high level fighter can fight the same foes as the low level fighter, and pull off trip manuvers without hyperspecializing. Because he's just that much better. He can do all sorts of things the low level fighter can't do.

The low level fighter fighting high level monsters has the option of a) run away b) die horribly c) hide and pray and d) hope there's a ballista around he can maybe shoot so he can actually hit and do damage.

I think we can definitely argue that the number of options a fighter has doesn't really increase with level. While technically he can pull more stuff off against weaker things, he has more options but can't use them against tougher things.

Thus, as he levels, his options go up, but are likewise constrained, so it's more even.

It's a pillar.

==Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aelryinth wrote:

The high level fighter can fight the same foes as the low level fighter, and pull off trip manuvers without hyperspecializing. Because he's just that much better. He can do all sorts of things the low level fighter can't do.

The low level fighter fighting high level monsters has the option of a) run away b) die horribly c) hide and pray and d) hope there's a ballista around he can maybe shoot so he can actually hit and do damage.

I think we can definitely argue that the number of options a fighter has doesn't really increase with level. While technically he can pull more stuff off against weaker things, he has more options but can't use them against tougher things.

Thus, as he levels, his options go up, but are likewise constrained, so it's more even.

It's a pillar.

==Aelryinth

Then the fighter just lifts the pillar and smacks the wizard in his pyramid having face.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Icyshadow wrote:

As much as I am fond of the Cu Chulainn example that Kirth Gersen provided earlier, I think it doesn't help as much as it could here.

Why? Because the Celtic hero being spoken of was a demigod. The breaks from reality only become acceptable because he has a supernatural element to him despite his Fighter levels, so to speak.

It isn't really a viable solution to slap on a magical template to every melee class. That is (correct me if I am wrong on this) the general consensus when it comes to possible fixing of classes like the Fighter.

And swimming in lava isn't thematically supernatural? [Which makes me wonder if we're going to be able to fulfill this thread's premise at all.]


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

As much as I am fond of the Cu Chulainn example that Kirth Gersen provided earlier, I think it doesn't help as much as it could here.

Why? Because the Celtic hero being spoken of was a demigod. The breaks from reality only become acceptable because he has a supernatural element to him despite his Fighter levels, so to speak.

It isn't really a viable solution to slap on a magical template to every melee class. That is (correct me if I am wrong on this) the general consensus when it comes to possible fixing of classes like the Fighter.

And swimming in lava isn't thematically supernatural? [Which makes me wonder if we're going to be able to fulfill this thread's premise at all.]

I think it's clear that we can't.

Defeating a caster makes you mythical/anime/whatever, so the basic premise of this whole thing is flawed.


That is the problen with Western Myths vs Eastern myths...

Western myths, most people capable of extreme and amazing tasks are credited to being a Demi God or having the touch of divinity or some McGuffin weapon or something. Whereas in eastern myths a lot of the powerful martials are often times masters of their art, people who have trained so hard they have perfected their form or reached some higher level of understanding and consciousness.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:


Sounds pretty magical to me. Why not just admit it and bake some appropriately over the top magic into the fighter's high-level options?
Because that's "too weeaboo." Really, you might actually read the thread before posting.
No it isn't.
Funny,... that's not a decision that you get to make.
You're right. Historical context does that. Makes less work for me, really.

Sadly, this thread is intended to solve a problem as regards a subset of the playerbase that doesn't like martials becoming 'non-mundane.'

Ergo giving the martial appropriate magical prowess [preferably as mostly EX abilities with perhaps a few SU sprinkled in] is making them 'too weaboo' as said crowd would say.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

aye, Western heroes are stat-based, and Eastern heroes are level-based.

Kinda another disparity there.

Although, honestly, Cu Chulainn's skills were also learned, and throwing the Gae Bolg with his toes is every bit as cool as any eastern kung fu move.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

aye, Western heroes are stat-based, and Eastern heroes are level-based.

Kinda another disparity there.

Although, honestly, Cu Chulainn's skills were also learned, and throwing the Gae Bolg with his toes is every bit as cool as any eastern kung fu move.

==Aelryinth

Oh that is true. Dont get me wrong, i LOVE western lore (Arthurian Legends are some of my favorites)


thejeff wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
people crying anime yet ignoring people from the western myths like Cu Chulainn pulled off the same stuff regularly

Of course they are. That doesn't make them like it anymore. Nor is crying anime a rational reason to not let stuff into the game. But people don't like it.

And Cu Chulainn was Mythic, so there's no need to give that kind of thing to normal fighters. :)

Then there's definitely no reason to give 7th, 8th and 9th level spells to Mages.

[Seriously, try running a campaign that grants Mythic Tiers (without the weird random 'Mythics can only be countered by Mythics' sub-rules, just the pure mechanics granted by the tiers and powers and such) to Martials but not to casters. The martials tend to STILL get overshadowed. I've done it.]

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Up until the martials can one-shot all encounters with the right two mythic feats, mythic feature, and mythic weapon, right?

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Up until the martials can one-shot all encounters with the right two mythic feats, mythic feature, and mythic weapon, right?

==Aelryinth

Level 20/tier 10 martial in my last game capped at @250 damage per standard action.


Aelryinth wrote:

Up until the martials can one-shot all encounters with the right two mythic feats, mythic feature, and mythic weapon, right?

==Aelryinth

I wasn't actually running that game, just playing the Wizard in it so I can't say for certain.

I can say the martial was more useful than they generally are [although still very dependent on me for narrative stuff] but I can't be certain of the other player's Optimization Level.


Aelryinth wrote:

The high level fighter can fight the same foes as the low level fighter, and pull off trip manuvers without hyperspecializing. Because he's just that much better. He can do all sorts of things the low level fighter can't do.

The low level fighter fighting high level monsters has the option of a) run away b) die horribly c) hide and pray and d) hope there's a ballista around he can maybe shoot so he can actually hit and do damage.

I think we can definitely argue that the number of options a fighter has doesn't really increase with level. While technically he can pull more stuff off against weaker things, he has more options but can't use them against tougher things.

Thus, as he levels, his options go up, but are likewise constrained, so it's more even.

It's a pillar.

==Aelryinth

That's not what I said.

Of course the higher level fighter will do better than the lower level ones when fighting the same foes. I'm comparing them against foes of appropriate challenge.

Assuming neither have trip feats, a first level fighter facing a first level challenge will have an easier time tripping something than a 15th level fighter facing a 15th level challenge.


alexd1976 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Up until the martials can one-shot all encounters with the right two mythic feats, mythic feature, and mythic weapon, right?

==Aelryinth

Level 20/tier 10 martial in my last game capped at @250 damage per standard action.

In mine I have a 12th level tier 4 Paladin with Mythic Power Attack and Mythic Vital Strike who does about the same damage. He has a 20% crit chance, so he pretty routinely hits things for 400+ damage.

Against important foes he usually does it twice a round, even after moving by spending a mythic point for an extra action. His Unavoidable Strike ability lets him resolve them at Touch AC.

He can pretty routinely one-round most foes. These days we run into a lot of things with Mirror Image and Displacement.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Doomed Hero wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

The high level fighter can fight the same foes as the low level fighter, and pull off trip manuvers without hyperspecializing. Because he's just that much better. He can do all sorts of things the low level fighter can't do.

The low level fighter fighting high level monsters has the option of a) run away b) die horribly c) hide and pray and d) hope there's a ballista around he can maybe shoot so he can actually hit and do damage.

I think we can definitely argue that the number of options a fighter has doesn't really increase with level. While technically he can pull more stuff off against weaker things, he has more options but can't use them against tougher things.

Thus, as he levels, his options go up, but are likewise constrained, so it's more even.

It's a pillar.

==Aelryinth

That's not what I said.

Of course the higher level fighter will do better than the lower level ones when fighting the same foes. I'm comparing them against foes of appropriate challenge.

Assuming neither have trip feats, a first level fighter facing a first level challenge will have an easier time tripping something than a 15th level fighter facing a 15th level challenge.

But the high level fighter can now hop 30 feet.

He can put his fist through a brick wall.

He can stun an enemy, blind an enemy, weaken an enemy. He can stop a foe from fleeing, lock down a spellcaster, and his full attack can kill a level appropriate enemy and more of them.

He has WAY more options then a low level character.

Granted, Trip might not work as well against MONSTROUS foes...it'll be just as effective against humanoid ones that don't have a size advantage.

So, some older attack forms are less effective, sure, but newer ones have opened up to replace them. So, instead of Tripping them, I use Dazing Assault to stun them for a round.

It's a pillar. ANd that's the problem. Investing resources to effectively do the same thing to an enemy at level 15 vs level 2 is pretty much the essence of a pillar!

==Aelryinth


alexd1976 wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

It isn't really a viable solution to slap on a magical template to every melee class. That is (correct me if I am wrong on this) the general consensus when it comes to possible fixing of classes like the Fighter.

And swimming in lava isn't thematically supernatural? [Which makes me wonder if we're going to be able to fulfill this thread's premise at all.]
I think it's clear that we can't.

I think it's definitely clear that some of you can't, yes. There's a substantial fraction of the posters on this thread that aren't even trying to solve the challenge, and instead are attempting to deny that the challenge exists. Which is ludicrous, I agree, since it's clearly specified in the first post.

The general consensus seems to be that it's quite possible, and there are a number of reasonably successful proposals upthread.

Some of the recurring themes seem to be:

* Enhancing protection from magic outside of the saving throw mechanism, something similar to Spell Sunder for the barbarian
* Enhanced opportunity to use combat abilities outside of the standard hit-for-damage paradigm
* Allowing more useful combat actions in conjunction with moves
* Enhanced uses of class abilities and skills that cannot be easily duplicated or foiled by magic (e.g. rangers tracking across planes)
* Enhanced social support (raising armies, organizations, and guilds to perform highly-skilled action at a distance).
* Enhanced group-based tactical abilities (e.g. Lord Gadigan's ability to beat the diviner's initiative bonus through pooled group bonuses)
* Providing martials with a broader variety of abilities/options instead of encouraging progressive specialization through effects like weapon focus.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
alexd1976 wrote:

Dial it back a bit there, champ.

Fighters do NOT get magical weapons.
Nor do fighters get magical armor.

They get BONUSES to hit, and reduction in penalties.

This does not overcome damage reduction in any way, other than a small bonus to hit/damage.

What I suggested was adding ACTUAL magic items as a class feature.

I'm sorry you don't understand what we are trying to do, we are trying to suggest ways to bring martials up to a level of power where they are on par with casters.

My fighters spend all their money on a stupid cycle of selling their existing weapons at a loss and buying new ones at full price in a futile attempt to keep up with the caster who can just TRADE spells ingame and accumulate power far more easily than the fighter.

My suggestion, as it was obviously not understood, is to ADD, as a CLASS FEATURE, armor and weapons that scale at NO ADDITIONAL cost to the fighter.

This, I think, would help solve some of the disparity between martials and casters.

No... Because damage doesn't overcome damage reduction at all...

And here is what I am suggesting:
"Stop."

Martials get their thing, casters get their thing, if Martials were able to do what casters could, then there would be no reason for someone to suffer through a d4 in HP, an absolutely terrible BAB, and the first few levels feeling, quite literally, useless.

"Wooo hoo! I get my 1 magic missile per day."

The balance has always been fine, Martials are the foundation and the rock. Take your casters into a real dungeon where you can't rest for 8 hours between encounters, where sleep is a serious issue, and see how well that caster does.

Answer. Not very.

Meanwhile your fighter will be doing fine.

Maybe it is because I am from the old school, before games like WoW poisoned people into thinking that everything needed to be 1:1 balanced, as these complaints are a more modern thing.

However you are trying to buck decades of convention that has proven to be a success for no reason.

Martials are fine.

GMs might be screwing things up by not properly setting up challenges... That happens... And yes, games that go: "Social, social, social, social... One combat!" Will skew the game as Casters, who are based around a mechanic of gradual resource drain, will be overpowered.

However, put your casters into a proper (high level) adventure, with 35-40 encounters, with no time to get 8 hours of rest in between and watch them squirm as precious spell slots are slowly depleted. Watch them fall back to depending on the Fighters to protect the camp so they can regain their power only to have monsters ambush them in the dead of the night.

Fighters are not, and never will be, and never should be, able to match a Caster in raw potential under perfect conditions. Those perfect conditions should be insanely rare though. If you feel that you "need more to not feel like you don't contribute" then something is wrong... That something isn't the game system...

You don't need free magical items. The game gives you everything you need as it is. You simply have to start using it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Things a low level martial can do that a high level martial can't:

Use any weapon they pick up with equal skill

Use any combat maneuver with equal skill, and reasonably expect to succeed with them.

Deal the same damage to a foe whether or not they move.

Rarely ever run into foes that make them feel like they cannot reasonably contribute to a fight.

Those seem like things a high level martial should definitely be able to do, don't you think?


HWalsh wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Dial it back a bit there, champ.

Fighters do NOT get magical weapons.
Nor do fighters get magical armor.

They get BONUSES to hit, and reduction in penalties.

This does not overcome damage reduction in any way, other than a small bonus to hit/damage.

What I suggested was adding ACTUAL magic items as a class feature.

I'm sorry you don't understand what we are trying to do, we are trying to suggest ways to bring martials up to a level of power where they are on par with casters.

My fighters spend all their money on a stupid cycle of selling their existing weapons at a loss and buying new ones at full price in a futile attempt to keep up with the caster who can just TRADE spells ingame and accumulate power far more easily than the fighter.

My suggestion, as it was obviously not understood, is to ADD, as a CLASS FEATURE, armor and weapons that scale at NO ADDITIONAL cost to the fighter.

This, I think, would help solve some of the disparity between martials and casters.

No... Because damage doesn't overcome damage reduction at all...

And here is what I am suggesting:
"Stop."

Martials get their thing, casters get their thing, if Martials were able to do what casters could, then there would be no reason for someone to suffer through a d4 in HP, an absolutely terrible BAB, and the first few levels feeling, quite literally, useless.

"Wooo hoo! I get my 1 magic missile per day."

The balance has always been fine, Martials are the foundation and the rock. Take your casters into a real dungeon where you can't rest for 8 hours between encounters, where sleep is a serious issue, and see how well that caster does.

Answer. Not very.

Meanwhile your fighter will be doing fine.

Maybe it is because I am from the old school, before games like WoW poisoned people into thinking that everything needed to be 1:1 balanced, as these complaints are a more modern thing.

However you are trying to buck decades of convention that has proven to be a success for no...

You seem to fail to know that certain levels of enhancement can bypass certain DRs even.if they don't initially meet the DR requirement

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

5 people marked this as a favorite.
HWalsh wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Dial it back a bit there, champ.

Fighters do NOT get magical weapons.
Nor do fighters get magical armor.

They get BONUSES to hit, and reduction in penalties.

This does not overcome damage reduction in any way, other than a small bonus to hit/damage.

What I suggested was adding ACTUAL magic items as a class feature.

I'm sorry you don't understand what we are trying to do, we are trying to suggest ways to bring martials up to a level of power where they are on par with casters.

My fighters spend all their money on a stupid cycle of selling their existing weapons at a loss and buying new ones at full price in a futile attempt to keep up with the caster who can just TRADE spells ingame and accumulate power far more easily than the fighter.

My suggestion, as it was obviously not understood, is to ADD, as a CLASS FEATURE, armor and weapons that scale at NO ADDITIONAL cost to the fighter.

This, I think, would help solve some of the disparity between martials and casters.

No... Because damage doesn't overcome damage reduction at all...

And here is what I am suggesting:
"Stop."

Martials get their thing, casters get their thing, if Martials were able to do what casters could, then there would be no reason for someone to suffer through a d4 in HP, an absolutely terrible BAB, and the first few levels feeling, quite literally, useless.

"Wooo hoo! I get my 1 magic missile per day."

The balance has always been fine, Martials are the foundation and the rock. Take your casters into a real dungeon where you can't rest for 8 hours between encounters, where sleep is a serious issue, and see how well that caster does.

Answer. Not very.

Meanwhile your fighter will be doing fine.

Maybe it is because I am from the old school, before games like WoW poisoned people into thinking that everything needed to be 1:1 balanced, as these complaints are a more modern thing.

However you are trying to buck decades of convention that has proven to be a success for no...

Uh, what?

Dude, I played AD&D too. Hit points aren't a problem in PF.

It's a d6 in HP, max at first level, + Con bonus (14-16 for +2 or +3) and maybe a Toughness feat, for 11-12 HP, maybe 1 hp behind the fighter, at first level.

At 3rd level, they get false life. Pre-emptive healing, and they can recast it!

Put martials into a day of 35-40 encounters and they will DIE. Their HP run out before casters run out of spells at those levels. The casters, of course, have the option to suddenly leave.

A simple Ring of Sustenance, standard adventuring fare for 2500 gp, takes complete care of the sleep issue. Rope Trick can provide a measure of security in the right spot (concealed).

Nothing you spoke of has any bearing on the game unless you completely ignore the options a caster has and make them mere melee support.

a team of 4 casters are going to have a much easier time with 35-40 encounters because they can potentially cast ONE SPELL and end an encounter, allowing the others to not use any, or minimal magic.

Martials, on the other hand, have to get through encounters taking NO damage and having NO status infliction. ugh!

Bad examples, my friend.

You're textbooking a fallacy of game design: Just because you can have fun and play around the bad balance and bad rules, don't mean they aren't there!

==Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Frankly, if i was the wizard the combat would have gone like "Martials break inside the inner sanctum. The wizard orders his minions to attack and then...

quickened Dimension Door.

Three weeks later as the martials are walking back to their city, their quiet campsite is suddenly assaulted by an empowered meteor swarm.

In other words, once its a fair fight, the wizard has already lost. Yeah, he might still win the fight, but that's not his bread and butter. Wizards are all about the alpha strike, and the ultimate picking and choosing of the battlefield. The fighter might turn the whole kingdom against the wizard such that he can't venture out into civilized territory without being in disguise, but if we're playing the high level wizard with even a modicum of common sense, then he's going to realize that he's the delicate and highly trained weapon that he is and isn't going to let himself get jumped on a battlefield of not-his-choosing.

Just my 2 copper.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
HWalsh wrote:

No... Because damage doesn't overcome damage reduction at all...

weapon enhancement can ignore DR altogether, +1 for DR/magic obvious, +3 I think for the weird ones like silver and what not, and then basically everything at +5

And here is what I am suggesting:
"Stop."

Martials get their thing, casters get their thing, if Martials were able to do what casters could, then there would be no reason for someone to suffer through a d4 <- wut in HP, an absolutely terrible BAB, and the first few levels feeling, quite literally, useless.

"Wooo hoo! I get my 1 magic missile encounter ending color spray per day."

The balance has always been fine, Martials are the foundation and the rock. Take your casters into a real dungeon where you can't rest for 8 hours between encounters, where sleep is a serious issue, and see how well that caster does.

I'll have you know my cleric slept like a baby with his 4 bloody skeleton companions, one was a dire bear, loved him. there's also magical mansion and other funny ways you can rest without even actually being in the dungeon still.

Answer. Not very.

Meanwhile your fighter will be doing fine.

Maybe it is because I am from the old school, before games like WoW poisoned people into thinking that everything needed to be 1:1 balanced, as these complaints are a more modern thing.

I played ADnD, back when casting was WAY harder to pull off, so....

However you are trying to buck decades of convention that has proven to be a success for no reason. like i just said, casting was way worse back in the day

Martials are fine.

GMs might be screwing things up by not properly setting up challenges... That happens... And yes, games that go: "Social, social, social, social... One combat!" Will skew the game as Casters, who are based around a mechanic of gradual resource drain, will be overpowered.

However, put your casters into a proper (high level) adventure, with 35-40 encounters, with no time to get 8 hours of rest it's the parties prerogative to enforce their alotted time, rings of sustenance bring sleeping down to 2 hours, and the martials have to heal eventually in between and watch them squirm as precious spell slots are slowly depleted. Watch them fall back to depending on the Fighters to protect the camp so they can regain their power only to have monsters ambush them in the dead of the night. at which point my caster wakes up angry and murders it with 4 shocking grasps i had saved for any would be ambushees

Fighters are not, and never will be, and never should be, able to match a Caster in raw potential under perfect conditions. Those perfect conditions should be insanely rare though. If you feel that you "need more to not feel like you don't contribute" then something is wrong... That something isn't the game system...

You don't need free magical items. The game gives you everything you need as it is. You simply have to start using it.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
HWalsh wrote:
if Martials were able to do what casters could, then there would be no reason for someone to suffer through a d4 in HP, an absolutely terrible BAB, and the first few levels feeling, quite literally, useless.

Do... do you even pathfinder?

Quote:
"Wooo hoo! I get my 1 magic missile per day."

Uh... whut?

First, Magic Missile is HORRIBLE at level one. Second, a level 1 Wizard should have at least three level 1 spells per day [One from class, one as a bonus from ability score, and one from either being a Specialist or having a bonded object.] Most Wizards will have four spells per day at level one [because most wizards are Specialists with a Bonded Object] and some will have Five [by virtue of being Specialists with a Bonded Object and starting play with a 20 intelligence]

It only takes one Color Spray or Sleep or Enlarge Person to win a fight. How frequently do you fight more than four encounters per day at level 1? In those rare occasions you do have level zero spells and School Powers at your disposal.

Quote:

The balance has always been fine, Martials are the foundation and the rock. Take your casters into a real dungeon where you can't rest for 8 hours between encounters, where sleep is a serious issue, and see how well that caster does.

Answer. Not very.

Meanwhile your fighter will be doing fine.

My own practical play experience disagrees with yours.

Fighters run out of HP and cry for resting sooner than Wizards do for depleted spells.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Also, Master Summoners laugh at the idea of running out of juice..

If you want to make the Fighter cry, put him in a party with a Sythesist Summoner, Master Summoner, Druid, and arcanist. He will literally be relegated To pack mule status. .


PIXIE DUST wrote:

Also, Master Summoners laugh at the idea of running out of juice..

If you want to make the Fighter cry, put him in a party with a Sythesist Summoner, Master Summoner, Druid, and arcanist. He will literally be relegated To pack mule status. .

The Fighter doesn't even make a good pack mule in that party, the Synthesist and Druid have higher carrying capacity than him.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
if Martials were able to do what casters could, then there would be no reason for someone to suffer through a d4 in HP, an absolutely terrible BAB, and the first few levels feeling, quite literally, useless.

Do... do you even pathfinder?

Quote:
"Wooo hoo! I get my 1 magic missile per day."

Uh... whut?

First, Magic Missile is HORRIBLE at level one. Second, a level 1 Wizard should have at least three level 1 spells per day [One from class, one as a bonus from ability score, and one from either being a Specialist or having a bonded object.] Most Wizards will have four spells per day at level one [because most wizards are Specialists with a Bonded Object] and some will have Five [by virtue of being Specialists with a Bonded Object and starting play with a 20 intelligence]

It only takes one Color Spray or Sleep or Enlarge Person to win a fight. How frequently do you fight more than four encounters per day at level 1? In those rare occasions you do have level zero spells and School Powers at your disposal.

Quote:

The balance has always been fine, Martials are the foundation and the rock. Take your casters into a real dungeon where you can't rest for 8 hours between encounters, where sleep is a serious issue, and see how well that caster does.

Answer. Not very.

Meanwhile your fighter will be doing fine.

My own practical play experience disagrees with yours.

Fighters run out of HP and cry for resting sooner than Wizards do for depleted spells.

I think he's referring to D&D 1st (or AD&D, I forget)

Sovereign Court

Arachnofiend wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:

Also, Master Summoners laugh at the idea of running out of juice..

If you want to make the Fighter cry, put him in a party with a Sythesist Summoner, Master Summoner, Druid, and arcanist. He will literally be relegated To pack mule status. .

The Fighter doesn't even make a good pack mule in that party, the Synthesist and Druid have higher carrying capacity than him.

Ant Haul is a delicious spell.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
HWalsh wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:


I'm sorry you don't understand what we are trying to do, we are trying to suggest ways to bring martials up to a level of power where they are on par with casters.
Martials get their thing, casters get their thing, if Martials were able to do what casters could, then there would be no reason for someone to suffer through a d4 in HP, an absolutely terrible BAB, and the first few levels feeling, quite literally, useless.

I'm afraid you're rather seriously misunderstanding.

Being on "a level of power where they are on par with casters" is not by any means the same as being "able to do what casters could."

Just as a simple example, let's put a buffed-up fighter standing next to a buffed-up wizard and let them do their thing.

The fighter, presumably, wants to hit the wizard with a bit of sharpened metal. The wizard, not being a fool, would like to prevent that, and has a number of tools at her disposal to do so. Mirror image is one obvious possibility, as is invisibility or gaseous form. By the passive nature of buff spells, we also know that these will be effective even if the wizard loses initiative. There are a number of abilities that the fighter might have taken to mitigate these, such as the Blindfighting feat, and there's an interesting game-theory question here.

Turning it around, the wizard will want to cast a spell. If she can make the casting check for casting defensively, it goes off -- and there's not much that the fighter can do about it. If it's a spell like teleport, she's gone. If it's a spell that does not allow a saving throw, it will take effect, and again the fighter can't prevent it. If it's a spell against which the fighter can save, the wizard has a choice of which save to target, and so there's still a better than 50/50 chance that the spell will take effect.

Now, let's assume for a moment that the fighter instead wants to get out of there. His options include.... running. Even if he wins initiative, he's still within easy combat range of the wizard, who can at that point target him with any of her choice of spells. Contrast that to the wizard who simply teleports dozens of miles away.

Their powers not anywhere near on par to each other. For them to be on par, the fighter should be able to shut the wizard down about as often as the wizard can shut the fighter down, even if they are doing so using completely different abilities, based on different mechanics, and with different themes. Granting the fighter the ability to interfere with casting (that supercedes the "cast defensively" mechanic) would be one way to do that, but of course it's not the only way.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
if Martials were able to do what casters could, then there would be no reason for someone to suffer through a d4 in HP, an absolutely terrible BAB, and the first few levels feeling, quite literally, useless.
Do... do you even pathfinder?

That was a throwback to the old days, if you don't notice.

Quote:
"Wooo hoo! I get my 1 magic missile per day."
Uh... whut?

For decades that is what casters went through. When Melee ruled the roost and the caster was totally useless. Back then, Melee'rs thought it was fine.

Back then, the Martial classes told us, repeatedly, to shut up and quit whining. We did. I still think Martials are fine even in Pathfinder. I still PLAY them for crying out loud.

Yes, things got better for Casters, but they still have their problems and you can STILL trick out a Fighter to be every bit as good only thing time it doesn't require finding a Wizard who is losing experience to craft you magical gear.

When someone suggests:

"You can buy magical weapons, armor, rings, etc..." Martials scream, "NO! WE SHOULD BE GIVEN IT! I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO SPEND GP ON ITEMS!"

And I just don't get it.

I cut my teeth when casters were completely useless prior to 5th level. When a House Cat could literally kill your caster before your caster could do anything. (Yes, that happened. AD&D was weird.)

Get yourself a cloak with a permanent fly spell... Boom. You can fly.

Get a sword, or ring, or shield, or... You get the idea... With a command word dispel slapped in it from a high level caster.

Get a ring of teleportation.

Get an amulet of haste.

Start stacking these things on yourself and you'll not have a problem keeping up. Yes. This means spending your GP on them. That is the reason you get GP though.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Granting the fighter the ability to interfere with casting (that supercedes the "cast defensively" mechanic) would be one way to do that, but of course it's not the only way

Wasn't this the point of Readied Actions? (apologies if I'm mis-remembering). Wizard tries to cast a spell, fighter hits him with a sword or arrow, you add the damage to the CC to cast the spell.

heh. there was even a moment in the movie version of the Two Towers where Aragorn says "Do not let him speak or he will cast a spell on you." That is so a 'readied action'.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Wszebor Uriev wrote:

Frankly, if i was the wizard the combat would have gone like "Martials break inside the inner sanctum. The wizard orders his minions to attack and then...

quickened Dimension Door.

That's an issue. Fortunately, the gunslinger is so fast he can even interrupt a quickened spell, without a readied action. Operation Beatdown continues unabated.

Is that over-the-top? Too wuxia? Since relatively few of the people screaming "too wuxia!" have bothered to join this thread :-( it's hard to know for certain.

But you're absolutely right. One of the issues is that so many of the wizard abilities are nigh-unstoppable, while anything that the fighter can under the existing ruleset can be avoided with ease via tricks like mirror image or contingency.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The problem with your assumption HWalsh is that 3.X has far too much math built into the system. Buying that stuff is screwing the martial out of math he needs in order to keep up.

It's a wonderful idea, and baking it into the game somehow could totally create a non-wuxia high level fighter.

Attempting to do so as it stands will lead to a fighter who is more flexible... but can't keep up with difficult challenges he's expected to face.

[Bear in mind that parties are expected to occasionally fight enemies up to 4 CR higher than their average level.]


Wszebor Uriev wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Granting the fighter the ability to interfere with casting (that supercedes the "cast defensively" mechanic) would be one way to do that, but of course it's not the only way

Wasn't this the point of Readied Actions? (apologies if I'm mis-remembering). Wizard tries to cast a spell, fighter hits him with a sword or arrow, you add the damage to the CC to cast the spell.

heh. there was even a moment in the movie version of the Two Towers where Aragorn says "Do not let him speak or he will cast a spell on you." That is so a 'readied action'.

But that, again could very easily be countered. You butn your turn to ready an action to attack when he casts a spell.

The mage takes a 5ft step back and casts as you no longer threaten him...

201 to 250 of 1,366 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.