What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?


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Bluenose wrote:
Can I ask the same question with regard to characters from the Mahabharata? Mind you, it's hard to judge the level of Arjuna, for one. Apart from really, really high.

I always like to think of Cu Chulainn. He can send sling stones for miles, and they unerringly kill targets at that distance. He is so awesome and manly that women abandon their husbands for him. When his life is actually threatened, allies plane shift in from faerieland to protect him. He can out-wrestle goddesses. His enemies use giant rainbow swords that can sever mountaintops, and he kills them with a spear he throws using his foot, which then explodes and sends barbs throughout the target. After he's dead, his corpse chops the arm off the first guy who tries to touch the body.


Saldiven wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:


haven't read it, but I assume there are rules on aircraft and bombs and such...
You'd assume incorrectly.

Orbital weapons?

Antimatter grenades?

I _know_ they have chainsaws... :D


RainyDayNinja wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


* A party of high level (17th level) martials is taking on a high-level caster (18th level caster, plus enough minions to make it a CR 20 encounter).
* The encounter is taking place in the caster's stronghold. Think, if you like, of Conan encountering the evil wizard at the top of his tower. This gives the caster the home field advantage plus all the prep time in the world.
* The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.
* The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate.
* The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words.

Let me start by thanking you, since you're the first person to actually grapple with the meat of this thought experiment.

Do you mind if I drill a little deeper?

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The fighter kicks the door open, and the evil wizard stands from his throne and commands his minions to attack.

Great opening. I can hear the faux-Latin chanting from here.

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The brawler intercepts the minions, dodging their blows and tossing them around the room, smashing them into pillars and getting them caught in the chandeliers.

Hmmm. So if I read this right, you're moving, full-attacking, and getting way more combat maneuvers than vanilla Pathfinder would allow (and probably doing way more damage than vanilla Pathfinder as well.) <scribbles notes>

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Meanwhile, the rogue jumps, rebounds off a pillar and back to the wall, and proceeds to run along it, out of reach of the minions' weapons as a few arrows bounce off the stones where he just was.

I'm fairly sure there are those that would call this particular maneuver "wuxia," but other than that, i have no issue. Especially since I have no idea what "wuxia" actually means. But I'm sure I saw someone pull this off on Crouching Tiger.

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The wizard launches four rays of sickly-dark energy at the party, but the archer intercepts two of them with arrows, while the fighter bats one aside with his sword, and the brawler throws a minion into the path of the last, and it turns to dust in his grip.

Deflect hostile spells using anyone's weapons, and no need for a held action. <scribbles notes>

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The rogue reaches the wizard's throne and leaps off the wall, striking at the spellcaster from behind, but he flies right through the illusion and lands in a controlled roll, bowling down yet another minion who collapses as he discovers a dagger planted neatly in his throat.

Flashy, but not (IMHO) "wuxia." And it's nice to see the caster isn't an idiot. Let's see -- dispelling an illusion without wasting an action on it, and the ability to do unbelievable amounts of damage without Sneak Attack. <scribble>

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The invisible wizard conjures a shockwave of force that sweeps the room, but the fighter plants himself firmly, and it shatters around his heavy shield.

Spell deflection of an AoE spell,...

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The brawler grabs a shard of force from the air and stabs it into the chest of a particularly nasty minion.

... plus spell redirection. <scribble>

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The archer takes out two of the minions sent flying by their own master's spell, pinning them to the stone wall and ceiling.

Oooh, selective AoE spell deflection. I like it.

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The rogue closes his eyes and concentrates on the energies around him. He continues to dodge the blows of the minions around him while the archer picks them off, and he detects an extra set of footsteps not accounted for by the visible combatants. He hurls a dagger through the air, where it explodes into shimmering light as it collides with the wizard's staff. The archer takes the chance to launch a trio of arrows, which ricochet off the pillars to approach from three different angles, two of which find their target and mark his location.

I'm starting to see Spell Sundering in its various forms as a theme here, I think. I like the indirect fire as well. <scribble>

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The wizard chants another spell, and an enormous creature with a gaping maw rises from the flagstones right in front of the fighter, and it bites down at him. The fighter grasps its fangs and holds the creature's mouth wide open, unable to close against the fighter's force.

Goodness. What kind of a combat maneuver is that? Is that a Grapple or something altogether new? <scribble>

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The archer launches a pair of arrows down its throat, causing it to roar in pain, while the brawler dives into its mouth and punches straight up, piercing its skull from below and ripping its brains straight out.

This is probably already within the rules. Monster gets bonked, monster sees stars. "Ready when you are, Raoul...."

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Meanwhile, the wizard has taken to the air and protected itself with a wall of wind, which the archer's arrows cannot penetrate.

Glad he's not a total fool.

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He instead waits for the rogue to leap into the air, then fires a series of arrows for his teammate to use as stepping stones as he follows the wizard into the air.

That's pretty wuxia to me....

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The rogue leaps through the wall of wind and grapples with the spellcaster, hanging onto him to keep from falling.

A rogue who's effective in combat.... but against a wizard, so that's not a high hurdle to clear.

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The wizard channels one last desperate spell into his hand, trying to touch the rogue, but the rogue grabs his arm, twists it around, and forces the energy-laden hand into the back of the wizard's own neck, causing the flesh to melt from his body.

Oh, you don't just lose a spell, you get hit by your own spell! <scribble>

I think there's some material there to work with....


dotting


Zhangar wrote:


If your basic set up is that the caster has infinite resources because the GM refuses to reign in badly written spells (hello simulacrum!), while the martials aren't even allowed basic magic items, then the exercise is pointless to begin with.

Not really. The exercise is "what (non-anime) abilities would martials need to be able to be effective against even the badly written spells?"


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How about comic books instead of anime?

High level Gunslinger is Cable. "My guns are from the future. I'm going to shoot you with a black hole. Twice."

High level Brawler is The Midnighter. "I've played this fight out a million times before it has even started. I know all the variables and I've prepared the most probable counters. Prepare for an assbeating."

High level Rogue is Nightcrawler (prestige classed into Shadowdancer): "You'll never see me coming, mein herr."

High level Fighter is Wonder Woman. "You can start praying, but the gods are on my side."

That poor wizard is going to have a bad day.


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So the villain as incredible prep time?

The rogue will spend the week before the assault on the fortress of doom (tm) using "Rumormonger (Ex)" spreading the following rumor:
A powerful adventuring party consisting for a druid, a wizard, a sorcerer and an oracle are about the attack the fortress of doom in 7 days. He also spread the rumor about their names and their physical descriptions.

While this is happening the gunslinger with the help of the rest of the party will forge a fake plan of attack made by the 4 other spell casters, showing that they will attack from the air using spells to fly and make themselves invisible and that they will summon a lot of extra planar creatures and that they might use teleport to go and kill the main bad right away using their druid as tank.

On the 5th day before the assault the fighter, the gunslinger, the rogue party face and the brawler will go request and audience for the big bad. They have found a plot against lord of doom (tm), the party rogue managed to steal the plan and they want to trade it for gold, they also offer their services as body guards for more gold. They also have an ingenious plan for the big bad: Use an anti magic zone, it will be perfect against the adventuring party summoned creatures, the enemy will teleport and then be rendered powerless, the rest of the party will be able to take care of them with ease with their superior martial skills.

On day 7 at the hour of the attack big bad (tm) cast anti magic field around his throne room and acts as bait. At this point his body guard full attack him, steal all his goods and burn his castle down. Also the wizard corpse is sent to the local temple of good guys to be sealed in a crypt.

You have been ocean 11ed.

If the GM foils the player plan by using out of game knowledge have your most beefy friend squeeze his arm until he says uncle.


alexd1976 wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:


haven't read it, but I assume there are rules on aircraft and bombs and such...
You'd assume incorrectly.

Orbital weapons?

Antimatter grenades?

I _know_ they have chainsaws... :D

Doesn't matter. If you want to assume rules for orbital bombardment, do so. I'm just pointing out that this path turns into "it became necessary to destroy the fantasy genre in order to save it."


Doomed Hero wrote:
How about comic books instead of anime?

Disallowed as per OP. Counts as "turning a fantasy game into a superhero game."


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
How about comic books instead of anime?

Disallowed as per OP. Counts as "turning a fantasy game into a superhero game."

And Spellcasting doesn't? :P

I'm still racking my brain over this challenge, hopefully I'll get a proposal written up soonish.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
How about comic books instead of anime?

Disallowed as per OP. Counts as "turning a fantasy game into a superhero game."

And Spellcasting doesn't? :P

I don't recall seeing Gandalf flying around in yellow Spandex.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:


haven't read it, but I assume there are rules on aircraft and bombs and such...
You'd assume incorrectly.

Orbital weapons?

Antimatter grenades?

I _know_ they have chainsaws... :D

Doesn't matter. If you want to assume rules for orbital bombardment, do so. I'm just pointing out that this path turns into "it became necessary to destroy the fantasy genre in order to save it."

Oh, why didn't you just say so at the start?

Of course.

I mean, ruleswise, you would basically just have to jack the fighters up to the point where they had HUNDREDS of hitpoints and saves so strong they could never fail, maybe spell resistance?

Heck, make the Fighter into a class that has all the Monk, Swashbuckler AND Rogue stuff and it would likely compete.

Spells are freaking powerful, man.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
How about comic books instead of anime?

Disallowed as per OP. Counts as "turning a fantasy game into a superhero game."

And Spellcasting doesn't? :P

I don't recall seeing Gandalf flying around in yellow Spandex.

Allow me to rephrase.

And Pathfinder Spellcasting doesn't turn the fantasy game into a superhero game?

Even at level 3 [4 as a Sorcerer] you can do Spiderman xD


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
How about comic books instead of anime?

Disallowed as per OP. Counts as "turning a fantasy game into a superhero game."

And Spellcasting doesn't? :P

I don't recall seeing Gandalf flying around in yellow Spandex.

Allow me to rephrase.

And Pathfinder Spellcasting doesn't turn the fantasy game into a superhero game?

Apparently not.


alexd1976 wrote:


Heck, make the Fighter into a class that has all the Monk, Swashbuckler AND Rogue stuff and it would likely compete.

I don't think it would. For one thing, your über-gestalt is still limited by line of sight and line of effect. A simple project image would allow the caster to mess you up without fear of retribution and escape unharmed.


Laiho Vanallo wrote:

So the villain as incredible prep time?

The rogue will spend the week before the assault on the fortress of doom (tm) using "Rumormonger (Ex)" spreading the following rumor:
A powerful adventuring party consisting for a druid, a wizard, a sorcerer and an oracle are about the attack the fortress of doom in 7 days. He also spread the rumor about their names and their physical descriptions.

While this is happening the gunslinger with the help of the rest of the party will forge a fake plan of attack made by the 4 other spell casters, showing that they will attack from the air using spells to fly and make themselves invisible and that they will summon a lot of extra planar creatures and that they might use teleport to go and kill the main bad right away using their druid as tank.

On the 5th day before the assault the fighter, the gunslinger, the rogue party face and the brawler will go request and audience for the big bad. They have found a plot against lord of doom (tm), the party rogue managed to steal the plan and they want to trade it for gold, they also offer their services as body guards for more gold. They also have an ingenious plan for the big bad: Use an anti magic zone, it will be perfect against the adventuring party summoned creatures, the enemy will teleport and then be rendered powerless, the rest of the party will be able to take care of them with ease with their superior martial skills.

On day 7 at the hour of the attack big bad (tm) cast anti magic field around his throne room and acts as bait. At this point his body guard full attack him, steal all his goods and burn his castle down. Also the wizard corpse is sent to the local temple of good guys to be sealed in a crypt.

You have been ocean 11ed.

So, basically Diplomancy? <scribbles notes>


Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:


Heck, make the Fighter into a class that has all the Monk, Swashbuckler AND Rogue stuff and it would likely compete.
I don't think it would. For one thing, your über-gestalt is still limited by line of sight and line of effect. A simple project image would allow the caster to mess you up without fear of retribution and escape unharmed.

How so? The range and duration are limited, they also need line of effect and sight to cast it, and if invisible, become visible upon taking offensive action.

Also, if interacted with, allows for a save. Which, with my four class gestalt, would have pretty solid saves. :D


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Laiho Vanallo wrote:

So the villain as incredible prep time?

The rogue will spend the week before the assault on the fortress of doom (tm) using "Rumormonger (Ex)" spreading the following rumor:
A powerful adventuring party consisting for a druid, a wizard, a sorcerer and an oracle are about the attack the fortress of doom in 7 days. He also spread the rumor about their names and their physical descriptions....

So, basically Diplomancy? <scribbles notes>

Well no, you get to do attack rolls! Have you ever seen Conan? they infiltrate the temple first to spy on the big bad guy and that guys had almost no magic juice compared to a level 18 caster with gear running by raw.

Casters have one massive mechanical issue, they still have to be played by human beings. People with ego, people that still can make mistakes, people that can be manipulated. yeah maybe that super awesome villain of doom would have prepared telepathy, or geas or something like that. But not if he has been prepping for 4 caster crashing through his front door, after all he's smart, he's the smartest cookie in the jar, the best magic cookie in the jar. He will prepare a lot of counter spells & fail saves against a bunch of casters. Wizard love having their pose of goons, be that goon, be Darth Vader, betray the emperor. That is how you win against overwhelming odds, you cheat, no need for magic.


Kirth Gersen wrote:

OK, I'll play, but a lot of people won't like it.

I'll start with the biggest stretch, but it captures what I'm after: as classes get higher in level, their "schtick" expands accordingly.

The gunslinger, as a class, represents someone apart from time. At 1st level, his guns work for him because he carries the laws of another time and place with him; they simply misfire for anyone else. At higher levels, he is not detectable by divination spells, nor are those in his company, because the laws of magic (and physics) are different around him. This can be seen as a caster-nerf or as a magic power, but it thematically fits the Gunslinger; we're rebuilding the whole class on the 'apart from time and space' schtick, to make it broader, with more useful abilities that still don't involve him jumping miles or casting spells. In this way, the party's presence and plans don't immediately give them away; without an ability like that, everyone is automatically divination-bait, so it's a major milestone.

I'm having issues with this one, for precisely the reason you outlined. While I'd be hard-pressed to term this "wuxia," it make it very difficult to tie in to the Conan-style ordinary hero who just happens to be awesome.

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In fact, the rogue is so sneaky that he's invisible to divinations as well, when he's on his own.

This I have no issue with, and in fact, it makes perfect sense.

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While the brawler goes to town and competes in a massive bare-knuckles boxing contest with a purse worth millions, passing off the fighter as his agent, the rogue sneaks to the tower, infiltrates the dungeons beneath it, draws a map (the player doesn't need to actually draw the map, but the character has the skill to do it), and subtly rigs the magic and mechanical traps so that he can set them off (or prevent them from being set off) almost at will, as long as he's nearby.

I'm on the fence about this one. That's an awfully sloppy/careless wizard you're assuming.

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The fighter calls in a large army. At 17th level, he's quite probably the greatest warrior who has ever lived, and can call on large armies and navies for personal favors, exactly like John Carter could do as Warlord of Mars. The rogue is able to call in more illicit favors and get the whole army registered as itinerant friars or something, so they're able to approach the tower with less suspicion.

Large armies I can accept. Large armies disguised as itinerant friars?

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Casting off their disguises, the army lays siege to the tower,

... and carrying siege engines in their habits?

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with supporting fire from the gunslinger; at 17th level, the latter can unerringly kill targets as fast as he can point his gun and pull the trigger.

Well, at least mook-level targets, sure.

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Meanwhile, the army sappers move into the dungeons, with the ranger and brawler as bodyguards against the monsters that live there, and they set to work on the weak points of the foundation; the ranger is able to unerringly navigate by map, despite the direction-losing magic there, because of his uncanny excellence of tracking.

Absolutely.

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He can lead them right to the points mapped by the rogue, but bypassing most of the traps and so on – those not already disabled by the rogue, who can in fact use them against the defenders! The brawler's adamantine knuckles allow him to do the work of an entire division, like John Henry the Steel-Drivin' Man. Soon, the tower collapses.

That's perhaps an... innovative... use of the word "soon,"I think.

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The BBEG's army and henchman spill out and wreak havoc, but the fighter has outflanked them at every turn, and at his direction, his archers are able to lay down withering fire in confined escape corridors, dealing massive, nearly unavoidable damage. Any who escape are killed by the gunslinger, brawler, and ranger. The rogue is able to move undetected through the battle, and slays the BBEG's apprentice with a death attack that bypasses all of his magical protections and so on.

Sure.

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The BBEG simply teleports to his private demi-plane to regroup.

Sounds good.

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Unfortunately for him, a 17th level ranger can track his quarry anywhere – even across planar boundaries. The ranger leads the party unerringly to the demi-plane, which collapses as the gunslinger enters it, because the laws of physics he carries around with him don’t support private demi-planes – he’s like the Runestaff in Moorcock’s The Vanishing Tower. The BBEG stops time, but the brawler simply ignores the effects – that’s a side effect of his intense focus in the boxing ring, and by 17th level, it’s useful across a range of other situations. The BBEG tries to dominate the brawler with a quickened spell, but the brawler again shrugs that off, and the BBEG is forced to plane shift him to Carceri.

Sucks to be him. Good spot to get some practice in, though.

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The rogue is so sneaky that he is able to wriggle free of the time stop before anyone else.

Of course. I'd expect no less.

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With total surprise, he stabs the BBEG, again bypassing magical protections due to the subtlety and finesse of his blow. One of the BBEG’s clones would normally awaken at this point, but alas, all of them were destroyed along with his tower and demi-plane.

The ranger leads the party into Carceri and finds the brawler, and his tracking and wilderness skills are so awesome that he is able to lead them back out, despite the fact that most mortals are trapped there forever.

I could see that working, but I can also see that being a nightmare to run. There's a reason that the stronghold and follower rules were dropped from 1st edition AD&D, precisely because it was hard to work with a party of high-level characters and the 501st Cavalry Division all going into a dungeon at the same time. It also hinges on a very passive and clueless BBEG, since there are a lot of points where he could simply have dropped a summoned pit fiend or something in the middle of the army and raised a lot of hell... literally.


alexd1976 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:


Heck, make the Fighter into a class that has all the Monk, Swashbuckler AND Rogue stuff and it would likely compete.
I don't think it would. For one thing, your über-gestalt is still limited by line of sight and line of effect. A simple project image would allow the caster to mess you up without fear of retribution and escape unharmed.

How so? The range and duration are limited, they also need line of effect and sight to cast it, and if invisible, become visible upon taking offensive action.

Also, if interacted with, allows for a save. Which, with my four class gestalt, would have pretty solid saves.

The wizard needs line of sight/effect to the project image spell itself, but once he's established that, only the image needs line of sight to the party. And saving against the projected image simply means that you recognize it as an image -- but it can still cast spells at you. Essentially, you're fighting the full-blown caster himself but you can't hurt him, while he can still hurt you.


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From my perspective, why shouldn't martials get super-human things? I mean currently, they're already more than any normal human could hope to become, so I feel like the idea of keeping them to "human standards" is already ridiculous.

Especially in a world where magic exists, I feel that anybody should be able to surpass the levels of human standards to what some people feel is "wuxia". Perhaps the flavor is that accomplished wizards learn to control it, whereas the greatest fighters in the world train to make it a part of them, granting them strength beyond any normal human, approaching the limits of godhood.

In a world with magic, I feel that instead of treating the greatest martials in the world as the best of the vanilla, treat them as more of the most vanilla of the best.

After all, not just anyone can train to cast spells like a wizard, nor is everybody born with magic in their blood. Why not simply make martial characters extensions of the same idea? Born to be heroes, blessed with the gift of magic, yet they exhibit it in a myriad of different ways.


Johnny_Devo wrote:
From my perspective, why shouldn't martials get super-human things? I mean currently, they're already more than any normal human could hope to become, so I feel like the idea of keeping them to "human standards" is already ridiculous.

It is ridiculous, yet the fact stands that many players want to keep grounded Aragorns in play alongside unrestrained Maiar. This thread is intended to compromise with these people, providing the power and flexibility high level demands without offending their sensibilities.

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After all, not just anyone can train to cast spells like a wizard, nor is everybody born with magic in their blood. Why not simply make martial characters extensions of the same idea? Born to be heroes, blessed with the gift of magic, yet they exhibit it in a myriad of different ways.

This is a similar theme to how I run it in my own games, except it's explicitly not magic. It's just amazing epic awesomeness. [Except when it is Magic, such as the Spellsword path used to turn Heroes into something resembling Paladins/Rangers/Bloodragers etc etc etc]


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RAGELANCEPOUNCE

/thread


Orfamay Quest wrote:
It also hinges on a very passive and clueless BBEG, since there are a lot of points where he could simply have dropped a summoned pit fiend or something in the middle of the army and raised a lot of hell... literally.

I'll add the caveat that, for the CR system to work at all, the CR 18 BBEG cannot have CR 20 servants. That's one part of the rules that need to be fixed on the caster end, regardless of what you do with the martials.

That said, I'm taking it as a given that anything within the BBEG's ability to control is fodder for the gunslinger's and ranger's ranged attacks -- two CR 17 martials against a single CR 17 devil shouldn't be much of a question, in terms of outcome. If that means ignoring DR and illusions, because their aim is just that good (an extension of Improved Precise Shot, basically), I'm OK with that.

I'd also point out that Conan et al. pretty much always find the evil wizard concentrating fully on some evil scheme that takes his attention away from petty concerns like martial characters. It's a trope of the Sword & Sorcery genre that one would be hard-pressed to abandon without abandoning any pretense of tying in with said genre. An 18th level BBEG wizard is trying to open a permanent gate to the Far Realm, which basically involves constructing an artifact; he has no time or attention to deal with administrative concerns.


What would a martial look like against a Wizard who was prepared for what was coming? I think it's somewhere between a pile of ash and a drooling slave. Hell, I think the absolute best case scenario is that the Wizard says "Pffft, screw this" and just teleports away, then waits for them to be caught with their pants down. After all, if you can achieve what is more or less functional immortality through various means (Clones, Lichdom, etc.), then you can afford to wait things out.

While I can understand why people don't like to have a wuxia/anime/whatever feel to their games, I feel that the simple fact of the matter is that is more or less what it would take to equal a caster in full narrative might. But I don't view this as a problem. No, I view it as a challenge!


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
It also hinges on a very passive and clueless BBEG, since there are a lot of points where he could simply have dropped a summoned pit fiend or something in the middle of the army and raised a lot of hell... literally.
I'll add the caveat that, for the CR system to work at all, the CR 18 BBEG cannot have CR 20 servants.

Shrug. Planar Binding, Greater sends its regards. In theory, it's balanced by the ten minute casting time, which means that the BBEG can't use it against you if you move fast enough to keep him off balance, and by the expense and difficulty of casting, which means the BBEG can't afford to keep a pit fiend around as an expensive lawn ornament.

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That's one part of the rules that need to be fixed on the caster end, regardless of what you do with the martials.

No nerfing the caster was part of the rules I posed.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
No nerfing the caster was part of the rules I posed.

That's a flaw in your rules, then. If CR 18 baddies can have CR 20 servants, then why isn't the CR 10 fighter the son of a CR 40 god, a la Greek mythology, and daddy then fixes everything for him? Any concept of playing a game with actual rules is abandoned in its wake, carried to the logical extreme.

Or else you accept that CR has to actually have some meaning.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
No nerfing the caster was part of the rules I posed.
That's a flaw in your rules, then.

They're not my rules, unfortunately. They're part of the core Pathfinder rulebook, and the existence of unbalanced options in that rulebook is one of the main reasons that the caster/martial differential exists.

I'm looking for ways to add options, not remove them.


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I sympathize, but disagree that the entire fix has to come from one direction or the other. Look, I'm 1000% in favor of making martials awesome, without making them casters. I feel that I've provided more examples of how to do that in one quick post than I've seen on the boards in a year. But at some point, you have to accept that a written spell rule that says, "Upon casting this spell, you automatically win the game" is not a viable design for a game that continues past that point.

Community Manager

Removed some posts and their replies. If you're going to participate in this thread, please be civil while doing so. Also renamed the thread title to something less inciteful.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
What books/resources are allowed?

For the caster, all of them. RAW is law.

For the martials, none of them, since you're not confined by the rules anyway.

well the fighter has an army of probably several hundred at least, with siege equipment and the like. didn't have to spend a feat on this either, when a level 17 fighter needs an army he damn sure will get one from somewhere.

The rogue has an assassin's guild prepping to take the entrance secretly and open it for the army

the ranger calls in a cadre of eagles for support, and the Brawler then proceeds to break down every door between them and the enemy.


Bandw2 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
What books/resources are allowed?

For the caster, all of them. RAW is law.

For the martials, none of them, since you're not confined by the rules anyway.

well the fighter has an army of probably several hundred at least, with siege equipment and the like. didn't have to spend a feat on this either, when a level 17 fighter needs an army he damn sure will get one from somewhere.

The rogue has an assassin's guild prepping to take the entrance secretly and open it for the army

the ranger calls in a cadre of eagles for support, and the Brawler then proceeds to break down every door between them and the enemy.

And a high-level Wizard can call on one of his army friends too, right?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
What books/resources are allowed?

For the caster, all of them. RAW is law.

For the martials, none of them, since you're not confined by the rules anyway.

well the fighter has an army of probably several hundred at least, with siege equipment and the like. didn't have to spend a feat on this either, when a level 17 fighter needs an army he damn sure will get one from somewhere.

The rogue has an assassin's guild prepping to take the entrance secretly and open it for the army

the ranger calls in a cadre of eagles for support, and the Brawler then proceeds to break down every door between them and the enemy.

And a high-level Wizard can call on one of his army friends too, right?

nah he summons them

i mean it's easily arguable that these people don't trust wizards and magic peeps with their army, i mean you may never get it back


I'm not sure this thought experiment is going to help with your goal of working out how martials need to be modified to be competitive and non-wuxia. Personally I'd suspect that a large proportion of the people who prefer martials to be mundane also don't like abusive spells such as simulacra and the others that you mentioned. In which case balancing the martials up to that level wouldn't be something that anybody would actually want, even if it were possible.

For myself I like some classes to be relatively 'mundane' (by which I mean doing extraordinary things rather than supernatural things), but I'd be more inclined to do that by balancing some spells rather than adding too much to martials. Probably with the exception that classes like the Fighter would have more skills than they do.


Berik wrote:

I'm not sure this thought experiment is going to help with your goal of working out how martials need to be modified to be competitive and non-wuxia. Personally I'd suspect that a large proportion of the people who prefer martials to be mundane also don't like abusive spells such as simulacra and the others that you mentioned. In which case balancing the martials up to that level wouldn't be something that anybody would actually want, even if it were possible.

For myself I like some classes to be relatively 'mundane' (by which I mean doing extraordinary things rather than supernatural things), but I'd be more inclined to do that by balancing some spells rather than adding too much to martials. Probably with the exception that classes like the Fighter would have more skills than they do.

In that case, the fix already exists -- play E6. I'm trying to deal with the people who claim to like high-level play.


Part of the problem here I think is the assumption that since a spellcaster can cast spells he can do anything, but that's only true in D&D where even the martials have socalled "wuxia" styled abilities.

In a challenge where martials aren't allowed to use their high level abilities (because they're assumed to be too wuxia for this challenge), should be balanced by stating an 18th level wizard cannot cast higher than 4th level spells (just an arbitrary spell level selection for the sake of argument). If the martials cannot use their own class features, in this "challenge" the wizards need to also not have access to higher level features (and since wizards only higher level features is higher level spells, thats the necessary nerf to create some level of a balanced challenge).

Since that isn't an allowed balancing factor, then yes, the challenge is meaningless, and even as a thought exercise kind of waste of time.


So, going with pure fighters, I have 3 basic solutions that generally aim to disable the caster (some of which should generally be before the caster gets all buffed and flying).

Eldritch Guardian fighter- with this, I suggest using the doubled action economy from having a familiar (preferrably a mauler for better size and CMB) in order to pull of a crippling Dirty Trick build, With Dirty trick Master, the pair can disable an opponent in a single round by making them nauseated (making it impossible for them to remove the dirty trick- or cast most spells). I usually go with a fox for this (one of the best str scores as mauler- also nice style, kind of ranger-ish), but a small fighter with a medium flying familiar could also pull off flight, and thus get at a flying caster. It also has pseudo pounce via teamwork feats (familiar charges, immediate action to do the same and thus you are next to the enemy on your turn), and it is generally non-wuxia (you just punch the mage in the gut so he can't do spells, and then you smack him until he is dead)

Mutagenic Warrior- This fighter archetype is notable for two reasons- one, it gives you wings at level 7 (thus allowing you to fly without wuxia junk). Secondly, it gives you mutagens to boost your numbers. Lets do a grapple build with this- basically, the wizard flies up, and then you tackle him out of the air and stop him from casting spells. Or at the very least, he dogs the wizard and smacks him with a sword when the guy casts spells. Over all, friendly to most other suggested builds since it only uses armor training- it can be combined with eldritch guardian. Just use this for flight and bigger numbers, overall. Super simple.

Brawler (the fighter archetype)- This archetype is built largely around a single idea- LOCKDOWN. This archetype takes the Stand Still Maneuver (use an AoO to stop any movement that draws an AoO) and then it gives you No Escape (which makes most forms of movement out of your adjacent squares cause an AoO). The brawler gets a sizable bonus to this maneuver, although you could substitute it for a lore warden since there is a fighter feat that does the same thing as No Escape. I prefer brawler though, since they also give a MASSIVE debuff to concentration checks for those in adjacent squares. Useful for smacking the magic out of a mage's mouth.


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gamer-printer wrote:


In a challenge where martials aren't allowed to use their high level abilities (because they're assumed to be too wuxia for this challenge), should be balanced by stating an 18th level wizard cannot cast higher than 4th level spells (just an arbitrary spell level selection for the sake of argument).

You're misunderstanding the challenge, I'm afraid. One of the issues is that the class abilities of the martials are too limited, precisely because so much of the fan base screams "weaboo" or "anime" if they get something unusual and unbelievable.

So the 17th level ranger can use his 17th level class ability all he likes. It's "Hide In Plain Sight." Meanwhile, the wizard has been able to cast vanish since level 1. The rogue just got another advanced talent last level, so he can now take 10 in combat with his disable device check.... or maybe even get an additional saving throw against mind-effecting spells (Hard Minded).

The point is that the high level class abilities themselves are fairly weak for martials. A 10th level rogue can take ten on a climb check, and a wizard can fly.

That's why the martials are specifically not confined by the rules of Paizo in this challenge. They can not only use their high level abilities, they can use abilities that aren't even in the rulebook. And I'm still not really seeing the awesome Conan-style beatdowns that Robert E. Howard so memorably gifted us with.


And now, because I feel vindictive and want to stir things up:
- with the brawler: "Now he is in MY RHYTHM" (couldn't resist making a half remembered Ippo reference)

- MAKE THAT WIZARD FLEE WITH YOUR FIGHTING SPIRIT!- ...ok, seriously, intimidation builds can be stupidly broken with the right build. With eldritch guardian fighter, you could have your familiar intimidate the wizard, and then you use disheartening display (builds on dazzling display- basicallyremoves the limit on how much you can amp up fear). With this, you can put the wizard into the frightened state in a single round, and then have him cowering a little after that if the wizard hadn't already teleported away.

I will readily admit that it is pure cheese when used like that.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
That's why the martials are specifically not confined by the rules of Paizo in this challenge. They can not only use their high level abilities, they can use abilities that aren't even in the rulebook. And I'm still not really seeing the awesome Conan-style beatdowns that Robert E. Howard so memorably gifted us with.

The Conan style beatdowns work because Conan style wizards aren't PF style wizards. They generally can cast Epic ritual spells (raise whole undead armies, send plagues, cause earthquakes & storms, that kind of thing), but have a much smaller and slower array of tricks for close personal combat.


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thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
That's why the martials are specifically not confined by the rules of Paizo in this challenge. They can not only use their high level abilities, they can use abilities that aren't even in the rulebook. And I'm still not really seeing the awesome Conan-style beatdowns that Robert E. Howard so memorably gifted us with.
The Conan style beatdowns work because Conan style wizards aren't PF style wizards.

And we're back to "so stop playing Pathfinder"?

I must admit, I'd hoped for better.

(And my reading of the Conan stories is slightly different than yours. The wizards are generally quite powerful blasters in combat, or can summon truly awesome monsters that are quite powerful in their stead. Conan is just that diesel; in particular, I think it's in "Red Nails" where he's dodging magical missile attacks and allowing them to hit the mooks behind him instead. I don't see why PF fighters shouldn't be able to have touch AC's measured in the 40s. Or shouldn't be able to have misses kill mooks.)


thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
That's why the martials are specifically not confined by the rules of Paizo in this challenge. They can not only use their high level abilities, they can use abilities that aren't even in the rulebook. And I'm still not really seeing the awesome Conan-style beatdowns that Robert E. Howard so memorably gifted us with.
The Conan style beatdowns work because Conan style wizards aren't PF style wizards. They generally can cast Epic ritual spells (raise whole undead armies, send plagues, cause earthquakes & storms, that kind of thing), but have a much smaller and slower array of tricks for close personal combat.

I think this is kind of a common issue: D&D is really unique in terms of things casters can do with ease. In most games/narratives, casters are generally blasters for the most part and need long-lasting and complicated rituals that leave the caster vulnerable to do the kind of story-changing stuff a PF Wizard does as a standard action.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
That's why the martials are specifically not confined by the rules of Paizo in this challenge. They can not only use their high level abilities, they can use abilities that aren't even in the rulebook. And I'm still not really seeing the awesome Conan-style beatdowns that Robert E. Howard so memorably gifted us with.
The Conan style beatdowns work because Conan style wizards aren't PF style wizards.

And we're back to "so stop playing Pathfinder"?

I must admit, I'd hoped for better.

(And my reading of the Conan stories is slightly different than yours. The wizards are generally quite powerful blasters in combat, or can summon truly awesome monsters that are quite powerful in their stead. Conan is just that diesel; in particular, I think it's in "Red Nails" where he's dodging magical missile attacks and allowing them to hit the mooks behind him instead. I don't see why PF fighters shouldn't be able to have touch AC's measured in the 40s. Or shouldn't be able to have misses kill mooks.)

Not necessarily "stop playing Pathfinder", but rework your expectations.

While things do get wonky at times, the game is generally built around party play and roles. Sure, the wizard does step on a lot of toes in the latter regard, but there are still limitations.

So if you are unwilling to allow someone to give the martials buffs (like flight- because that would be too ANIMES), then you are going to need some serious shutdown techniques.

Some of those shutdown techniques are cheesy, broken, and generally not fun to play (see "FIGHTING SPIRIT" mentioned above). It can be done though. Just not in the flashy way you want it to. Because flash takes time and effort, adn you do not have time for that when a wizard begins taking flight.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
And I'm still not really seeing the awesome Conan-style beatdowns that Robert E. Howard so memorably gifted us with.

Again, however, back to my point, the wizard that Conan was doing so awesome against was nothing like an 18th level wizard - more like a 3rd or 4th level wizard. I'm trying to keep things apples and apples, but your challenge is enforcing apples to oranges.

I personally don't think any of the existing martial high abilities are "weaboo" (even though I have no idea what that means) or anime. I personally hate anime, but don't consider the high level martials as that.


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High level pathfinder games *are* superhero games.

Some people don't like it, but that's the way it is. Here's the breakdown-

Levels 1-5: Gritty, mostly realistic themes. Action is grounded in things that could theoretically be possible. Lord of the rings goes here.

Levels 6-10: Pulp fantasy/action movie style themes. Action is beyond realistic, but not so much that it is world-changing. Conan goes here.

Levels 10-15: Wuxia. Jedi, Crouching Tiger, and most greek myths go here. Heroes routinely do unbelievable things. Nothing realistic is a threat to them anymore.

Levels 15-20: Superheroes. Pug of Crydee, the Amberites, Belgarion the Godslayer, and Cu Chulain go here.

If you want to have your challenge be meaningful you have to accept that 17th level characters are going to be Superheroes in terms of power scale.


lemeres wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


And we're back to "so stop playing Pathfinder"?

I must admit, I'd hoped for better.

Not necessarily "stop playing Pathfinder", but rework your expectations.

While things do get wonky at times, the game is generally built around party play and roles. Sure, the wizard does step on a lot of toes in the latter regard, but there are still limitations.

So if you are unwilling to allow someone to give the martials buffs (like flight- because that would be too ANIMES), then you are going to need some serious shutdown techniques.

Well, buffs aren't necessarily "ANIMES," and that's one thing I'm hoping to tease out. Some of the suggestions -- followers, more general magic resistance, and even the ability to turn magic against itself -- seem like classic heroic abilities out of Howard.

And, yes, serious shutdown techniques are something useful, if they can be pulled off.... but I seriously challenge, for example, your mutagenic warrior with wings. I'm not a very good arbiter of where the line is, but anything that would require wire-work to film is probably close to wuxia. And without wire-work, how are you getting to a flying wizard?

Quote:


Some of those shutdown techniques are cheesy, broken, and generally not fun to play (see "FIGHTING SPIRIT" mentioned above). It can be done though. Just not in the flashy way you want it to. Because flash takes time and effort, adn you do not have time for that when a wizard begins taking flight.

I'm not sure why you say "flash takes time and effort." You're not confined to the existing PF rules here. To answer my own question,... you want to take out the flying wizard? Throw a ^&*% cinder block at him and knock him out. It's a surprisingly mundane save-or-suck technique (brawlers get "knockout" as a combat technique at level 4) that's not particularly well-supported in the rules.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
That's why the martials are specifically not confined by the rules of Paizo in this challenge. They can not only use their high level abilities, they can use abilities that aren't even in the rulebook. And I'm still not really seeing the awesome Conan-style beatdowns that Robert E. Howard so memorably gifted us with.
The Conan style beatdowns work because Conan style wizards aren't PF style wizards.

And we're back to "so stop playing Pathfinder"?

I must admit, I'd hoped for better.

(And my reading of the Conan stories is slightly different than yours. The wizards are generally quite powerful blasters in combat, or can summon truly awesome monsters that are quite powerful in their stead. Conan is just that diesel; in particular, I think it's in "Red Nails" where he's dodging magical missile attacks and allowing them to hit the mooks behind him instead. I don't see why PF fighters shouldn't be able to have touch AC's measured in the 40s. Or shouldn't be able to have misses kill mooks.)

I don't either. Touch ACs, saves or redirecting misses.

That particular scene wasn't quite as epic though - It was a madman with a wand that would only do its zap towards metal - frying anyone between. Conan just kept maneuvering so he was never in position to get zapped until he got close enough and killed him with a thrown dagger. He wasn't dealing with a flying, invisible, missile protected wizard actually casting spells through an illusion.

I'm not sure there is an answer to this that won't be seen as too weeaboo by some. Not me, I think martials should be able to do crazy wacky things.

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