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A group of four Spell-Sunder Superstitious Pouncing Barbarian dispels the wizards protections and promptly murders him because unlike other martials, Barbarians actually can have nice things.
well, till unchained anyway.
I think for this idea, we need to look at the body and everything it offers, and then for martials increase those abilities to Extra-ordinary levels.
There are such people in this world where because of biological advantage, or absolute dedication, they are able to do what we can't even get close to.
A much earlier poster wrote something about a archer intercepting ray spells with arrows; I like that a lot. It's a measure of fine accuracy that let's him circumvent his enemy.
He also wrote about a rogue being able to focus his senses so strongly that he can discern elements that normal people cannot; like the number of footfalls being made during a chaotic melee.
I think these are the right ideas.
We already have it where martials can damage enemies to death; now they need utility and countermeasures for defeating versatile enemies.
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A group of four Spell-Sunder Superstitious Pouncing Barbarian dispels the wizards protections and promptly murders him because unlike other martials, Barbarians actually can have nice things.well, till unchained anyway.
It is really hilarious to me that the Barbarian got nerfed harder in Unchained than the Summoner did. It really goes to show what the real priorities of some of the people at Paizo are.
It is really hilarious to me that the Barbarian got nerfed harder in Unchained than the Summoner did. It really goes to show what the real priorities of some of the people at Paizo are.~Shrugs~
Paizo designs the game for people who want to have fun playing Pathfinder, not win in a tactical combat simulator. While I have my complaints about class balance and such, I have almost no interest in playing the kind of game most optimizers seem to enjoy.
Your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my post
all of that would get them killed by an actual fighter funny enough.These are some "plausible" things I want martials to do. Why can't I run along walls to avoid an enemy? I had an old DM tell me I couldn't do that with my Swashbucklery character because it wasn't possible....
Shrug. So would trying to fight in armor with two swords, or even sword-and-dagger. Historically, almost no one tried that nonsense (two one-handed weapons) until about 1500.
So,... we've given up on narratives, then? A pity, I was enjoying them.
Yeah, the new rules stuff might be better suited to the aforementioned hypothetical House Rules/Suggestions/Homebrew thread.
Or the other new thread someone made on this subject.
Because you can't have just one.
Shrug. So would trying to fight in armor with two swords, or even sword-and-dagger. Historically, almost no one tried that nonsense (two one-handed weapons) until about 1500.all of that would get them killed by an actual fighter funny enough.These are some "plausible" things I want martials to do. Why can't I run along walls to avoid an enemy? I had an old DM tell me I couldn't do that with my Swashbucklery character because it wasn't possible....
actual dual wielding was used in duals and by body guards, the same kind of scale you see adventurers fighting at. not having a shield just meant your guys were getting destroyed by arrows on a battlefield.
however, i'm mostly talking about their back flips and spins, those all just give me another chance to stab you, never give your back to your enemy.
edit: did you link that to my post?
It's mostly bad GMing that grants casters more narrative power than martials. Sure casters have amazing unique powers, but only bad GMing allows that to equate to one individual controlling the narrative. When I play casters I attempt to engaging in collaborative decision making and when I GM I make sure all my players in involved in the substantive narrative changes. There no spells that can prevent that.
or maybe it;s not bad GMing and the system just setting up inexperienced GMs to fail? food for thought.
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It's mostly bad GMing that grants casters more narrative power than martials. Sure casters have amazing unique powers, but only bad GMing allows that to equate to one individual controlling the narrative. When I play casters I attempt to engaging in collaborative decision making and when I GM I make sure all my players in involved in the substantive narrative changes. There no spells that can prevent that.or maybe it;s not bad GMing and the system just setting up inexperienced GMs to fail? food for thought.
Yeah, I can't see how the teleport spell could have any effect on a travel narrative. Obviously any swordfighter can just wave his sword in the air, pull a Trump card out of his deck, and appear right where he wants to be. Any archer ranger can read the thoughts of the mystery suspect just by aiming at the right point in space. <:rolleyes:>
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It's mostly bad GMing that grants casters more narrative power than martials. Sure casters have amazing unique powers, but only bad GMing allows that to equate to one individual controlling the narrative. When I play casters I attempt to engaging in collaborative decision making and when I GM I make sure all my players in involved in the substantive narrative changes. There no spells that can prevent that.or maybe it;s not bad GMing and the system just setting up inexperienced GMs to fail? food for thought.Yeah, I can't see how the teleport spell could have any effect on a travel narrative. Obviously any swordfighter can just wave his sword in the air, pull a Trump card out of his deck, and appear right where he wants to be. Any archer ranger can read the thoughts of the mystery suspect just by aiming at the right point in space. <:rolleyes:>
"oh no there's a chasm with a draw bridge, looks like we'll have to find a way to lower the draw bridge"
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So,... we've given up on narratives, then? A pity, I was enjoying them.
Nah, we haven't even gotten the obligatory Anzyr talks about a high level mage part.
Nah, we haven't even gotten the obligatory Anzyr talks about a high level mage part.So,... we've given up on narratives, then? A pity, I was enjoying them.
do a narrative that involves a monk. and i mean a non-Wuxia one.
do a narrative that involves a monk. and i mean a non-Wuxia one.
So a cleric?
do a narrative that involves a monk. and i mean a non-Wuxia one.So a cleric?
nope too wuxia
do a narrative that involves a monk. and i mean a non-Wuxia one.So a cleric?
Jackie Chan, Drunken Master. I don't recall any particularly over-the-top moves pulled off in that show.
nope too wuxia
How about... a commoner with profession (monk)?!
Jackie Chan, Drunken Master. I don't recall any particularly over-the-top moves pulled off in that show.
That's a brawler not a monk. Which is why I assume you choose Brawler in the OP, an unarmed martial artist without the wuxia.
nope too wuxiaHow about... a commoner with profession (monk)?!
nope too boring
to be clear by monk i mean a martial artist who tries to strengthen their mind as much as their body. but... doesn't jump 30 odd feat in the air i guess.
do a narrative that involves a monk. and i mean a non-Wuxia one.Nah, we haven't even gotten the obligatory Anzyr talks about a high level mage part.So,... we've given up on narratives, then? A pity, I was enjoying them.
Nope, we gotta get to the Explosive Runes scene.
A non-wuxia monk is a brawler with points in Wisdom who calls him/herself a monk (remember, class names only mean as much as you want them to). A "real" monk is explicitly supposed to have magicalish powers, so a "non-wuxia" monk with levels in Core monk is strictly impossible. :P
EDIT: Alternatively, if the martial artist stuff isn't your main goal, make a barbarian and flavor his rage as a "hyperfocused state" (and don't take the wuxia rage powers). Or, heck, a slayer, invest in Wisdom, and use some of the advice here for fighters/rangers/rogues that already applies pretty well to him.
A non-wuxia monk is a brawler with points in Wisdom who calls him/herself a monk (remember, class names only mean as much as you want them to). A "real" monk is explicitly supposed to have magicalish powers, so a "non-wuxia" monk with levels in Core monk is strictly impossible. :P
unlike most people, i don't actually think of a monk as hitting people with their fists constantly. :3
mine tend to use monk weapons. I like staffs even if they are pretty suboptimal.
That's a brawler not a monk. Which is why I assume you choose Brawler in the OP, an unarmed martial artist without the wuxia.Jackie Chan, Drunken Master. I don't recall any particularly over-the-top moves pulled off in that show.
Nope. It's not that a monk has "wuxia," it's that a standard (vanilla) monk has abilities that duplicate spells, which is what I was trying to avoid. There are a lot of traditional monk abilities that are not "wuxia" that would actually be very useful and interesting, relating to the mental discipline.
For example, monks get the following abilities:
* Wisdom to AC
* Enhancements to saves
* Immunity to diseases/poisons
* Resistance to age-related decrepitude
I don't consider any of those to be particularly implausible. Goodness, the last one is becoming a standard medical practice (teaching tai chi to geriatric patients to improve balance, flexibility, strength, stamina, and so forth).
EDIT: Alternatively, if the martial artist stuff isn't your main goal, make a barbarian and flavor his rage as a "hyperfocused state" (and don't take the wuxia rage powers). Or, heck, a slayer, invest in Wisdom, and use some of the advice here for fighters/rangers/rogues that already applies pretty well to him.
Barbarian, fighter or ranger* with a quarterstaff. Works fine.
*Spell-less, or one of the magic-free archetypes if you want to avoid 3pp. Just flavor the favored enemies as being somewhat more casual than the general "vendetta" assumption—you've fought goblinoids before and have experience with it.
EDIT: Hang on, did you read the brawler class?
Brawler's Flurry (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
Just use a quarterstaff, dude. Or play the Martial Artist, if the name "Brawler" itself is what's bugging you.
i think a monk should be able to hit things with wisdom, reduce their madness.
EDIT: Alternatively, if the martial artist stuff isn't your main goal, make a barbarian and flavor his rage as a "hyperfocused state" (and don't take the wuxia rage powers). Or, heck, a slayer, invest in Wisdom, and use some of the advice here for fighters/rangers/rogues that already applies pretty well to him.Barbarian, fighter or ranger* with a quarterstaff. Works fine.
*Spell-less, or one of the magic-free archetypes if you want to avoid 3pp. Just flavor the favored enemies as being somewhat more casual than the general "vendetta" assumption—you've fought goblinoids before and have experience with it.
EDIT: Hang on, did you read the brawler class?
Brawler's Flurry (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.Just use a quarterstaff, dude. Or play the Martial Artist, if the name "Brawler" itself is what's bugging you.
tbh, none of those let me punch through adamantium at higher levels... also, all those are great offensive options, i imagine the monk as more of a debuffer and a tank(in that he is immune to certain mental effects and even some physical ones). more of what the rogue's role in a party is.
Fixing the monk is such a vast topic it feels too big for this thread, not least because you aren't actually talking about the monk—you're talking about the aforementioned Martial Artist, which is practically a whole other class.
How is punching through adamantine with your fists non-wuxia? I don't think we've even had a real human who can punch through iron (though I could buy that much in D&D). You break your hand doing that. This idea seems better suited to a place like the "Give martials Mythic tiers" thread. :P
EDIT: Hell, you basically can do that at high levels. Just not easily. Hardness and wall HP are finite; damage isn't. Just keep hitting it. Be a Smasher barbarian.
Fixing the monk is such a vast topic it feels too big for this thread, not least because you aren't actually talking about the monk—you're talking about the aforementioned Martial Artist, which is practically a whole other class.
How is punching through adamantine with your fists non-wuxia?
because it's badass.
also it's "buyable" as a high level martial's capabilities.
The whole idea is really kind of muddying this. Punching through stone or iron, fine, maybe (stone is a "probably"). Adamantine, though? The hardest substance in the world that can cut or smash through iron doors like butter? Use a freakin' hammer or just embrace the wuxia. There's nothing wrong with wuxia. It's just explicitly not what this thread's going for. :P
It's really not buyable. Show me a human who can break down an elevator door and we'll talk. Currently, the RAW already lets you break adamantine with your fists—it just takes a while. It's already more generous than I would be. So why bring it up? :P
It's really kind of muddying this. Punching through stone or iron, fine, maybe (stone is a "probably"). Adamantine, though? The hardest substance in the world that can cut through iron doors like butter? Use a freakin' hammer or just embrace the wuxia. There's nothing wrong with wuxia. It's just explicitly not what this thread's going for. :P
hmm? when you get as strong and experienced as level 16 or what ever, you just know how to punch a hole in anything.
to be clear his fists aren't that hard, he just knows how to punch in ways that do limited damage to his hands and make any material fall before him. nothing mystical is happening.
Sure, in the more "physics-free" land where you can also jump a skyscraper and catch a bullet with your bare hands. No problem with that. But it's not buyable. I can't believe it for a second—that's adamantine, the second-strongest substance on the planet, the metal that treats other metals like toilet paper (er, to cut through, I mean). Fist + adamantine = broken fist by even the most lax real-world logic. I'm done arguing this. If you want to keep it up, start a new thread, or start a conversation with a blacksmith.
It's really kind of muddying this. Punching through stone or iron, fine, maybe (stone is a "probably"). Adamantine, though? The hardest substance in the world that can cut through iron doors like butter? Use a freakin' hammer or just embrace the wuxia. There's nothing wrong with wuxia. It's just explicitly not what this thread's going for. :Phmm? when you get as strong and experienced as level 16 or what ever, you just know how to punch a hole in anything.
to be clear his fists aren't that hard, he just knows how to punch in ways that do limited damage to his hands and make any material fall before him. nothing mystical is happening.
Unfortunately, that kind of scaling is viewed as wuxia by many of the people this thread is intended to deal with.
Getting a viable high level martial to work for these people means avoiding all the things you and I consider facets of high level.
well i mean my post about punching someone straight to hell was applauded but punching through adamantium? nah, broken hand.
I remember neither that post nor if I applauded it. I'm just reacting to what I see now.
there's no mystical mumbo jumbo going on with his fists, i'm simply saying 16 levels of experience give the character knowledge or intuition in how to punch through objects, probably naturally seeking out the exact point where you can cause catastrophic failure of the item.
Again, if you want someone to be especially good at smashing objects, Breaker Barbarian has you covered. So does Martial Artist, really—you don't get extra bonuses vs. objects, but you do get much better unarmed strike damage (most a barbarian can get looks like 1d6). The tools for beating hardness at high levels are already in Pathfinder, and they're called "doing a s@$$ton of damage". :P
I don't particularly mind a powerup to breaking stuff, but I don't think that's anything unique to brawlers (and fists in particular are kind of silly—I generally give fists the "impractical tool" penalty when it comes to sundering marble walls and the sort).
Again, if you want someone to be especially good at smashing objects, Breaker Barbarian has you covered. So does Martial Artist, really—you don't get extra bonuses vs. objects, but you do get much better unarmed strike damage (most a barbarian can get looks like 1d6). The tools for beating hardness at high levels are already in Pathfinder, and they're called "doing a s#~*ton of damage". :P
I don't particularly mind a powerup to breaking stuff, but I don't think that's anything unique to brawlers.
but i wanted anzyr to give me a story with a non-wuxia monk. ;-;
maybe he gets to wade through a petridish and recover an object or something.
catch a bullet with your bare hands. No problem with that.
Note: Monks can do this at first level just with their class abilities. There is no way monks aren't wuxia. They are literally designed to specifically fit the wuxia feel.
Again, if you want someone to be especially good at smashing objects, Breaker Barbarian has you covered. So does Martial Artist, really—you don't get extra bonuses vs. objects, but you do get much better unarmed strike damage (most a barbarian can get looks like 1d6). The tools for beating hardness at high levels are already in Pathfinder, and they're called "doing a s#~*ton of damage". :P
I don't particularly mind a powerup to breaking stuff, but I don't think that's anything unique to brawlers.
but i wanted anzyr to give me a story with a non-wuxia monk. ;-;
maybe he gets to wade through a petridish and recover an object or something.
Maybe the monk has maxed UMD and a bag of explosive rune scrolls?