Agile tongue, an extra slapping limb, or Natural weapon?


Rules Questions


So I played the Golden Guardian adventures and got some inspiration to make a grippli for PFS once i get the boon. I was looking over the racial features and I came across the Agile Tongue feat

paizo wrote:
You have a prehensile tongue with a range of 10 feet. You can pick up items weighing no more than 5 pounds, make Sleight of Hand checks, perform the steal or disarm combat maneuvers, or make melee touch attacks with your tongue.

So I thought I could make a crazy touch based druid or shaman caster build with a few Unchained Rogue levels mixed in for sneak attacks and debilitating injury. Using touch spells with level based charges (frostbite) you can do this several times per cast and debuff consistently if you flank. (since you count as threatening with touch spells if you hold charges). But can I make multiple attack with a high BAB? Can I make AoO to disarm people moving through my 10 ft reach? Do I provoke if I disarm or steal at range with my tongue? Do I take a -4 for being unarmed?

So the way I understand it there are 3 options. Whichever it is, the tongue is: Finessable, able to deliver touch spells with sneak attack and you threaten from 10ft while holding a touch spell.

A) The tongue is another limb you get that allows you to make disarm, steal, sleight of hand checks and melee touch attacks as if it were an unarmed strike. That means:

- you take a -4 on unarmed disarm attempts
-you provoke when stealing and disarming without the improved feats
- You don't threaten to disarm with AoO or touch attacks (poison, circumstantial things), unless you get improved unarmed strike.
- If you successfully disarm you hold the weapon in your tongue (if lees then 5 lb)
- you can't flank from 10ft without imp unarmed strike
- you get to use additional iterative tongue attacks for high BAB
- You can use it with flurry of blows (delivering multiple spell charges via touch attacks) since it's a part of the body of the combatant, not unlike a pinky finger or kneecap.
-The tongue can be used in both 5 and 10ft reach (since it's natural reach)
- the tongue can be used to retrieve items from backpacks (like a tail) and hold items under 5 lb (like potions or scrolls)

or B) the tongue functions as a natural weapon with which you make disarm, steal and sleight of hand attempts and only touch attacks within 10 ft reach AND THAT DEALS NO DAMAGE. This means:

- You don't take no penalty for disarming.
- You threaten 10 ft but not possibly not 5ft (question).
-You threaten 10 ft for disarms. (and can flank from 10ft)
-on a successful disarm the weapon always ends on the ground
- You can combine it with another weapon in full attack but at a -5.
- you don't get iteratives for high BAB
- you can flurry with Feral combat training feat.
- the tongue cannot be used to retrieve items or hold items as a hand.

Or C) it is a special thing that is a combination of the above or neither.

Then come my subquestions:

And if it is A) a unarmed strike weapon
>Can I do unarmed damage if I take monks lvs and improved unarmed strike. (seems silly I can slap people with my hands, but not my tongue).

> If i can't do unarmed strike damage, can I still deliver stunning fist, touch of serenity or likewise abilities (like HEX STRIKE)? (since these are status granting melee attacks, not melee touch attacks, despite what some of the names might imply. It seems kind of counter intuitive i can deliver melee touch spells that calm, but not something names "touch of serenity".

If it is B) a natural weapon:
> Can I wake weapon focus in tongue?
> Can I grant it unarmed strike damage with feral combat training?
> can I give it DEX to damage with Finesse training from Unchained Rogue?

I would like to know what the PFS legal situation is. Limb, or natural weapon?

I myself would tell my players it's a limb and therefore an unarmed strike type of action. Forcing them to take imp unarmed strike to threaten in 10ft, but as a result also allow them to unarmed strike with it once they have it. Now i realize that might be a bit to powerful and for PFS it's easier to rule it as a natural weapon. But looking at my conjecture above, I'm not sure, hence my question.


It's something that's really neither. The thing to remember is that abilities do exactly what they say they do, nothing more. It is closest to an extra limb though. I can't think of many situations where you could treat it as a natural attack as it deals no damage and can't be used to make a normal attack. Some specifics thoughts:

You can't take improved unarmed strike with it as it cannot be used to make a non-touch attack. Also prohibits Stunning Fist and Hex Strike as they requires successful unarmed attacks. (ToS is unusual as it doesn't require an unarmed attack, just an attack. If you are holding a spell charge and attack with it, strictly RAW you should be able to ToS. i suppose you could just make an unarmed touch attack with it, but it would provoke).

Weapon finesse should apply as even if you treat it as unarmed or a natural attack they both count as light weapons for finesse. Finesse training won't be usable as you only add strength damage to damage rolls and there is no damage to roll.

It doesn't naturally threaten, nor can you flank with it as it deals no damage. It has a natural reach of 10' (either way you look at it it definitely isn't a weapon) so you can affect things at both 5' and 10'

When it is holding a charge it becomes weaponlike. This means you both threaten and can flank. It is a natural 10'reach so you would threaten at both 10' and 5'. You can take AoO, you can make attacks according to your BAB, just the same as any spellcaster could in the same situation. If you can flurry with touch spells you can flurry using this as a limb. It's not an area of the rules I've looked into.

Steal and Disarm, you will always provoke an AoO unless you have improved steal/disarm. That would be true even if you treat it as a natural attack.

As the only thing you can say with certainty is that it isn't a natural attack I suppose you must default to treating it as an unarmed attack, so -4 to disarm, but can hold onto light enough weapons (not sure there is a point as you can't use it to wield a weapon - oh! I guess retrieving it is a point)

(I've gone through this to check, but as I solidified my thoughts and changed things halfway through there may be some odd wording-sorry.)


Add Arcane Strike to get some damage. Your touch attack now can do sneak attack on top of the Arcane Strike.

/cevah


wow, i actually didn't see people had responded to this at the time..i feel so silly now. tnx anyway

Cevah wrote:
Add Arcane Strike to get some damage.

That is actually a great suggestion, but it would mean that the tongue needs to be considered a weapon. Also, it would prevent you from sneaking in some grippli poison.

dragonhunterq wrote:
Weapon finesse should apply as even if you treat it as unarmed or a natural attack they both count as light weapons for finesse

Right, but do melee touch attacks NOT made as part of unarmed strikes count as "light weapons"? EG: could I take weapon finesse with a magus or wizard that specializes in delivering melee touch attacks and just dump Str and boost Dex?

dragonhunterq wrote:
If you can flurry with touch spells you can flurry using this as a limb. It's not an area of the rules I've looked into.

Well you can deliver touch spells with your unarmed strikes, so i presume any spell that notes that it can have lv x attacks, can be delivered multiple times a round, provided you cast the spell as a separate standard action prior to flurrying in any subsequent round. But then the crucial part is whether the "any limb" would allow you to flurry touch attacks.

Imagine a monk wanted to use FoB to put paint hand prints on a target, would that also be allowed, or not. Certainly it would seem as a 'yes' when RAI, but then that opens up the slippery slope on whether this applies to touch spells. Which is the question i really wanted answered.

Specially now that i have a Grippli boon...


Make sure you use the agile tongue to grapple the succubus.

Sovereign Court

I think tongues are considered natural weapons on the various monsters like giant frogs that get one. Even though they're not a "classic" natural weapon from the universal monster rules table.

So in the case of grippli I'd also count it as a natural weapon.


Ascalaphus wrote:

I think tongues are considered natural weapons on the various monsters like giant frogs that get one. Even though they're not a "classic" natural weapon from the universal monster rules table.

So in the case of grippli I'd also count it as a natural weapon.

That was my reasoning for describing it as a natural weapon that does no damage. But would this be applicable in PFS?

I have no real problem justifying it sneak attacks with the tongue if i use touch spells (i could even go a sorcerer/magus, arcane trickster) But I'd much prefer it if i had a little more utility outside of my spell usage, or getting some more bang for my buck. Like a caster making the primary attack with a weapon (at full BAB) and then using the tongue as a secondary natural weapon (at -5) that targets touch AC with a touch spell on it from the previous round.

I would really like to see some ruling regarding those ways to use the tongue for PFS reasons.


thorin001 wrote:
Make sure you use the agile tongue to grapple the succubus.

Alas, RAW i could only try to disarm her her unease, or steal her heart or softly touch her soul. :P

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