PFS: Size and "two-handed" vs. ranged weapon that "requires two hands"?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

It is my understanding that the terms "light", "one-handed", and "two-handed" can only apply to melee weapons.

PRD wrote:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

(Emphasis mine on melee weapon.)

However, there are also ranged weapons that normally require two hands to use.

PRD wrote:
Crossbow, Heavy: ... Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls...

If only a melee weapon can be classified as "light", "one-handed", or "two-handed", then how do ranged weapons scale between sizes? For determining if a character can wield the weapon at all, the text specifically references the "light"/"one-handed"/"two-handed" terms and nothing else.

PRD wrote:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

Has there been any specific ruling I can reference on this? Is a character able to use an oversized bow or crossbow (at the normal -2 penalty) in PFS? Is this explained with stricter language in another book?

Grand Lodge

Somewhere there is an FAQ clarifying that one handed handguns (and crossbows?) require two hands if they are one step larger, but two handed handguns still take two hands even if they are one step smaller.

Grand Lodge

Hmm... FAQ is not as detailed as I thought...

Also, flagged for move to rules forum


Longbows (and likely similar weapons) state right in their descriptions that they are two-handed no matter what.

I'm not entirely sure about guns, but in general I'd follow the same rule.

"Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a Strength bonus, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below), but not when you use a regular longbow."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/longb ow

Edit: I also could have sworn I read somewhere that a player may only use a bow that is sized for them - but I can't find it at the moment. :p

Grand Lodge

Tabletop Giant wrote:
Edit: I also could have sworn I read somewhere that a player may only use a bow that is sized for them - but I can't find it at the moment. :p

The closest I know of is the FAQ I linked above:

Quote:
The text of the rule is, "The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it." The intent of that rule was to prevent a Medium character from using a Small rifle as a one-handed pistol; it wasn’t intended to let a Medium character use a Large, Huge, Gargantuan, or Colossal two-handed firearm as a two-handed weapon. Just like with non-firearms, a creature cannot wield a weapon that’s far too big or small for it. Specifically in the case of firearms, a Medium character can’t use a two-handed firearm sized for a Large or larger creature, and a Small character can’t use a two-handed firearm sized for a Medium or larger creature.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What about thrown weapons?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would think that ranged weapons are a GM call at this point. With the other thread and this one, it seems the confusion is with the difference between Melee being designated and ranged being explained (in the descriptions) instead.

Would a bow be able to be held in one hand whilst the other wields a longsword? Would a crossbow need to actually be dropped to use a one handed weapon in the other hand? This is the questions I would want clarification on.

As far as size of the weapon being able to be used, goes down to how it is used normally and adjust, or one can only wield appropriate sized ranged weapons. (Firearms being the exception, as they have the designations the other ranged weapons do not)

So, for the light crossbow that can be used one handed at a -2 penalty, perhaps that penalty would stack with the size modifier so the larger light crossbow would be used at a -4 two handed. (and can only be used two handed by the smaller character)

Could be a reason why characters don't use bigger/smaller ranged weapons.

Thrown weapons use the melee designations as referenced in the chart. Unless a feat or class ablility says otherwise, throwing two handed does not give extra damage (1.5 times) like it would in melee.


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FLite wrote:
Tabletop Giant wrote:
Edit: I also could have sworn I read somewhere that a player may only use a bow that is sized for them - but I can't find it at the moment. :p

The closest I know of is the FAQ I linked above:

Quote:
The text of the rule is, "The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it." The intent of that rule was to prevent a Medium character from using a Small rifle as a one-handed pistol; it wasn’t intended to let a Medium character use a Large, Huge, Gargantuan, or Colossal two-handed firearm as a two-handed weapon. Just like with non-firearms, a creature cannot wield a weapon that’s far too big or small for it. Specifically in the case of firearms, a Medium character can’t use a two-handed firearm sized for a Large or larger creature, and a Small character can’t use a two-handed firearm sized for a Medium or larger creature.

I know this text block obviously is limited to firearms and not bows, but I feel like its logic is quite appropriate to bows as well and should be treated as such. I realize this gets into RAW vs RAI - and man, do I hate stepping into RAW vs RAI - I mean, the stuff is so sticky and always gets all over my sneakers and takes a lot of work to get off, and then my shoes still smell funny for DAYS.

House-rule I'd apply that rule to bows; in PFS, I'm not precisely sure what to do (which means I'd probably apply that rule to bows).

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