Isn't it time to stop saying "Martials never get nice things"?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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False Life?


That too :P

Or the Contingency Spell is also nice for stuff


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Teleport and similar effects when things are going badly. Scrying and similar effects to get better information before going in. Sure they might not work all the time, but they work 0% of the time for people who don't have them.

In before someone yells "Use Magic Device!" and pretends they've made a point.


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If magic items are the solution, people should play the magic item(s) and take the Fighter/Rogue/Mundane as a henchman. You can play a really unique magic item, and your Feet are replaceable.


Yet martials can never craft magic items as well as casters.


Petty Alchemy wrote:

A common thought. A common response is: "the martial has resources too, they're called hitpoints and it takes magic to bring them back (at a meaningful rate), else he has to call it quits too."

Hit points are a lot easier to recover, though. A wand of CLW is, like, 750 gold.


PIXIE DUST wrote:

I hear this a lot... I also hear a lot in retort:

"Good luck doing that without the mage giving you buffs or giving you the ability to fly.."

Oh and when you have yoru own personal Demi-plane... kinda hard to stop ya xD

Except, you know, surviving to that point. One doesn't just start pooping out demi-planes when they pop out their mum. If you do all comparison at 20th level, well after the point where the game's physics break, then obviously casters will win out.

1)Potions are usable by anyone, wands are doable with UMD. yeah, Magic is needed to heal fast, but it doesn't have to be the mage who uses it.
2)Casters are hoping that they can successfully cast their escape spell without losing it or getting wacked. Natural reach, grapple...these are things that TONS of monsters have. Ever try to concentrate your way out of a grapple against a creature made to grapple, or even just a big one? it ain't easy.
3)No kidding they're different levels. Thing is, they're resources allocated. Every spell you prep that isn't what you need is wasted resources. Can't tell you how many Protection From Energy's I've just had get converted to Cures.
4)Maze is an 8th level spell. Good luck reaching that point without your bodyguard. Up until that point, they make their save against your spell on your turn, they're in your face and shutting you down on theirs.

Thing is in the Magic/Martial debate, people always compare the two rather than compare what they face. Remember that they aren't going to be fighting each-other as much as they are the world.

I've seen more combats where the caster is shut down than the martial. High SR, immunities,good saves, bad spell preparation. Any one of these will shut a caster out of a fight completely. Watched a second level magus land a whopping 30+damage critical shocking grasp on a PFS big bad end boss, only to have the DM laugh as said BBEB was an unidentified demon and that 30+ crit was reduced down to a mere 8. I've seen enchanters languish as they realize the foe is immune to mind effects, evokers sweat as the square off against outsiders. Even conjurers break down when areas or foes are warded. One fight where the big bad manages to get to your caster? One creature with Grab (and before you even mention it, Freedom of Movement isn't on your sorc/wiz list)? Hope you have a backup plan. More likely, you're going to hope that your two-hander can smash his way through the monster's HP.

In the end, if the Martial doesn't get Nice Things, it's because the Nice Things the Caster gets is the Martial.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:

A common thought. A common response is: "the martial has resources too, they're called hitpoints and it takes magic to bring them back (at a meaningful rate), else he has to call it quits too."

Hit points are a lot easier to recover, though. A wand of CLW is, like, 750 gold.

But if you have task after task after task after task... how long are THOSE going to last? If high level casters are running out of spell slots, I expect wands to be burnt out too.


A single wand gets 50 charges. A 20th level wizard doesn't get even that many spells per day if you add everything together. He barely pops over with a 30 Int. Even the 10 Int sorcerer only goes 4 spells over. And that's at 20th level, a time where you can afford a hundred CLW wands without even getting elbow-deep in your bag of holding.

In one straight run, the wands will always outlast the caster's spells.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:

A common thought. A common response is: "the martial has resources too, they're called hitpoints and it takes magic to bring them back (at a meaningful rate), else he has to call it quits too."

Hit points are a lot easier to recover, though. A wand of CLW is, like, 750 gold.

And casters can burn through scrolls and wands to last a lot longer.

Seriously, carry around a wand of haste, a wand of stone call, a wand of fog cloud and a big bundle of scrolls. You should be able to use one or two of the wands in every combat, and save your big hitters (aka your high level spell slots) for emergencies.

Scarab Sages

I think the reason everyone should stop saying "martials never get nice things" is because it simply isn't true. I've played enough to see what warrior types get. The things they get are quite different from what mages and rogues get, but it all looks pretty nice to me.


Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:

I hear this a lot... I also hear a lot in retort:

"Good luck doing that without the mage giving you buffs or giving you the ability to fly.."

Oh and when you have yoru own personal Demi-plane... kinda hard to stop ya xD

Except, you know, surviving to that point. One doesn't just start pooping out demi-planes when they pop out their mum. If you do all comparison at 20th level, well after the point where the game's physics break, then obviously casters will win out.

1)Potions are usable by anyone, wands are doable with UMD. yeah, Magic is needed to heal fast, but it doesn't have to be the mage who uses it.
2)Casters are hoping that they can successfully cast their escape spell without losing it or getting wacked. Natural reach, grapple...these are things that TONS of monsters have. Ever try to concentrate your way out of a grapple against a creature made to grapple, or even just a big one? it ain't easy.
3)No kidding they're different levels. Thing is, they're resources allocated. Every spell you prep that isn't what you need is wasted resources. Can't tell you how many Protection From Energy's I've just had get converted to Cures.
4)Maze is an 8th level spell. Good luck reaching that point without your bodyguard. Up until that point, they make their save against your spell on your turn, they're in your face and shutting you down on theirs.

Thing is in the Magic/Martial debate, people always compare the two rather than compare what they face. Remember that they aren't going to be fighting each-other as much as they are the world.

I've seen more combats where the caster is shut down than the martial. High SR, immunities,good saves, bad spell preparation. Any one of these will shut a caster out of a fight completely. Watched a second level magus land a whopping 30+damage critical shocking grasp on a PFS big bad end boss, only to have the DM laugh as said BBEB was an unidentified demon and that 30+ crit was reduced down to a mere 8. I've seen...

1) Guess who makes all those... and guess who has the skill points to spare to put into UMD? The fighter's 2+INT is stretching real far there.

2) Freedom of Movement is a thing. Again, casters and completely shut down a martial with 1 FREAKING SPELL. The way Combat Manuevers are handled by the game requires them to specialize hard core to do one effectively, and something with Freedom of Movement (which is a very commonly prepared spell), just ignores it. Or if your a Teleportation Specialized Wizard (i.e. the second most popular focus, just behind the Divination Wizard that essentially ensures you WILL act first...) you can just port out without issue.
3) If your prepping super specialized spells without foreknowledge of what you are gonna be doing, you are playing poorly. A spell like invisibility is always useful. Same with fly. A spell like Black Tentacles pretty much is never wasted. Preparing something like Protection From Chaos with absolutely no idea if you are gonna be facing Demons, creatures of limbo, or psychopaths is a waste of a spell since its way to situational. Funny thing though, a wizard picking a wrong spell is correctable the next day. A fighter picking a poor feat is MUCH harder to fix...
4) There are A LOT of ways to shut things down. Bad will save? Color Spray. Bad Reflex? Create Pit. Bad fort? Well... tehre are everything from disease spells to ray of enfeeblement. Take your pick. SR is not THAT difficult to bypass (most wizards take Spell Pen.. and if your an Elf its even easier)

Across damn near every level a Wizard will actually have an easier time than a fighter. Even level 1-2 that people like to say Wizards are to prone to.... Color spray is pretty much an encounter ender... And anything too much will kill the fighter just as quick...

And you come up with these contrived scenerios how about this:

Your a two handed fighter. Suddenly, dragon... Good luck trying to fight it as it just strafes along breathing fire while you attempt to poke with it your bow (if your smart enough to carry one).

Or if you are an Archer, Caster casts wind wall. ouch... Or Wall of stone and Ignores you...

Your a trip master!!! Suddenly... flying creature. Well there goes like 50% of your feats...

You mention High SR, immunities, or saves.

Well Fighters have to deal with:

High DR (have fun with that)
High AC (you would love my flowing Monk)
Crane Style (Pre-errata)/Swashbucklers (parry/reposte abilities)
Something standing more than 5 ft away from you
Physically being able to hit the creature (like the flying dragon)
Not having the creature being immune to you
ect.

I mean, sure something could have mind blank and be straight immune to the enchanter's Dominate Spell, he is not immune to his black tentacles... The Trip Fighter (Trip Lore Warden build) though has very few options against things that are immune to trip since he dedicated so many things to JUST trip.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

A single wand gets 50 charges. A 20th level wizard doesn't get even that many spells per day if you add everything together. He barely pops over with a 30 Int. Even the 10 Int sorcerer only goes 4 spells over. And that's at 20th level, a time where you can afford a hundred CLW wands without even getting elbow-deep in your bag of holding.

In one straight run, the wands will always outlast the caster's spells.

But each charge heals for 1d8+1. It takes more than 1 charge to heal a fighter.. He is gonna be burning through those charges fast.


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True, but even if he only has one wand, there are other sources of healing. Channeling can supplement pretty well if the cleric hasn't dumped Charisma, and the cleric herself will be using her spells on you. And the examples of casters with about as many spells get there at 20th level—a point at which the fighter is not really lacking for monetary resources (though hes lacking more than the casters, obviously).

In case there's any confusion, note that I'm from a parallel conversation about whether longer adventuring days affect the dynamic. I'm not trying to argue fighters aren't hugely disadvantaged, just that a longer adventuring day is a good way to remove a caster's favorite uber strategy, the nova.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

True, but even if he only has one wand, there are other sources of healing. Channeling can supplement pretty well if the cleric hasn't dumped Charisma, and the cleric herself will be using her spells on you. And the examples of casters with about as many spells get there at 20th level—a point at which the fighter is not really lacking for monetary resources (though hes lacking more than the casters, obviously).

In case there's any confusion, note that I'm from a parallel conversation about whether longer adventuring days affect the dynamic. I'm not trying to argue fighters aren't hugely disadvantaged, just that a longer adventuring day is a good way to remove a caster's favorite uber strategy, the nova.

The thing is, a caster does not even need to nova is depressing part. Many spells just straight shut down anything short of a "boss encounter" type of creature. Like one game I played I only realy Cast Black Tentacles since I pretty much grappled the whole mob of enemies and let the fighter clean up.

Blaster Casters are even worse when it comes to this. A dedicated, optimized Blaster Wizard (i.e. I throw a Dazing, Intensified, Empowered Fireball with a Rod of Maximize at it's face! with a Goblin war drum...) can pretty much crush most encounters with 1 or 2 fireballs before he can just let his summons or his fighter take care of the rest...

And doing the whole "Imma extend the encounters so that everyone has to help the fighter survive and burn their resources on him" I just personally don't like. Like... I really HATE having to be the fighter's buff machine because honestly I want to PLAY the game and do something other than spend my rounds making sure the fighter can actually do his job (Ok... I cast haste on the fighter.... again... next)

Nothing against the style or anything, its just more a personal pet peeve of mine because I prefer to build things like Enchanters or Illusionists or Necromancers and the occassional blaster... i.e. not buff bots... and I refuse to play clerics because I HATE being lassoed into the role by everyone else)


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PIXIE DUST wrote:

(Ok... I cast haste on the fighter.... again... next)

You have to think of them like a tool. martial characters basically only do one thing, which is attack. They don't have any meaningful decisions to make in combat.

As a wizard, you make choices that have real consequences. The fighter is just another tool in your arsenal to get the job done. Sure, you can't really leave him alone to do stuff, but the same goes for most summon monsters, HA


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CWheezy wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:

(Ok... I cast haste on the fighter.... again... next)

You have to think of them like a tool. martial characters basically only do one thing, which is attack. They don't have any meaningful decisions to make in combat.

As a wizard, you make choices that have real consequences. The fighter is just another tool in your arsenal to get the job done. Sure, you can't really leave him alone to do stuff, but the same goes for most summon monsters, HA

Of course, when summons fail they die and go away. When they do well, they still go away and you can conjure some more later.

When your fighter fails you fork out for a resurrection. When they don't you split half your earnings with them. When they do, you still split half your earnings with them.

On top of that, they get whiney if you don't enable them to participate in combat instead of conjuring something or dealing with it yourself.


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They could have gone to wizard school if they wanted


CWheezy wrote:
They could have gone to wizard school if they wanted

So what. You pay for the fighter to retrain completely into a wizard (or even better, a martial divine caster), and give them a headband so they can actually cast.

That's...a solution, I guess. I hope the fighter doesn't mind though.


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Bluenose wrote:
If magic items are the solution, people should play the magic item(s) and take the Fighter/Rogue/Mundane as a henchman. You can play a really unique magic item, and your Feet are replaceable.

Admittedly, giving martials high-powered artifacts as a class feature is not a terrible idea. Many pure martial characters in fiction channel their badassitude through a special weapon that only they are bad enough dudes to use.

Of course, this is not Pathfinder as written.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
If magic items are the solution, people should play the magic item(s) and take the Fighter/Rogue/Mundane as a henchman. You can play a really unique magic item, and your Feet are replaceable.

Admittedly, giving martials high-powered artifacts as a class feature is not a terrible idea. Many pure martial characters in fiction channel their badassitude through a special weapon that only they are bad enough dudes to use.

Of course, this is not Pathfinder as written.

That's not quite what I mean. What I suggest is, you start play as an intelligent magic item which would either be a class in it's own right or a custom race with a class, and a requirement that you invest in a follower that acts as your Feet and carries you around to where you'd be able to do the things your class gives you. So your character would be Face Smasher the legendary mace accompanied by Face Smasher's Feet, your henchman.


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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

I do this. It isn't punishment, it is adventuring. The Wizard is out of spells? Damn. How's the fighter doing? Still got a sword? Yup. :D


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
If magic items are the solution, people should play the magic item(s) and take the Fighter/Rogue/Mundane as a henchman. You can play a really unique magic item, and your Feet are replaceable.

Admittedly, giving martials high-powered artifacts as a class feature is not a terrible idea. Many pure martial characters in fiction channel their badassitude through a special weapon that only they are bad enough dudes to use.

Of course, this is not Pathfinder as written.

Class feature? No.

I seriously don't see the problem with getting items. I've never been in a game of D&D/Pathfinder/Etc where I didn't get magical items. Where I couldn't have things commissioned, or where heck, my companions couldn't make stuff for me.

"The Wizard can cast fly!"

"Okay. My Fighter has a Griffon Mane Cloak that is enchanted to allow him to fly while wearing it."

"But you had to pay for that!"

"And? I'm usually rolling around like Scrooge McDuck by the time I get to the levels in the campaign that people are whipping out half of the spells people are mentioning."

"You have to only put points in Strength and Con and they must be maxed!"

"No you don't. As a fighter you have a full BAB and you get more feats than anyone else, not to mention special feats. If you aren't getting a +3 HP per level and instead only getting a +2 then you are going to be fine. If you only have a 20 natural strength instead of a 22 natural strength you are going to be fine. If you can turn that into a +2 Dex bonus somehow, or get some magical boosting, so you can take advantage of one of your class defining features (IE the dex use increase) then you simply aren't doing it right. You have to use everything at your disposal, no matter the class."

We can go around and around...

It seems like you want 1:1 balance.
No.
That is silly.
Balance is situation-based in Tabletop, always has been, always will be.

The Wizard is hot stuff with his magic missile... Until an opponent has a shield spell. The Sorcerer is a terror with his fireball! Until the bad guys, anticipating this quite common technique, had enchanted armor, rings, potions, etc just for that specific occasion. In a no-magic zone the Warrior will cream the dress wearing Wizard no problem. Spell Resistance can be a problem, so can counter-spelling.

The Warrior doesn't get completely shut down if someone smacks him with something that mutes him. The warrior isn't completely useless when the enemy rolls up on their fortress after a hard battle to hold against the first attacking wave with the second wave at 11pm and they start belting out Orcish drinking songs at maximum volume, and off key, preventing the Wizard from getting 8 hours of sleep.

So what if a Warrior has to get a Wizard to enchant his magical sword? What is wrong with that? It is a staple of fantasy. If you really hate that idea so much you can always spend one of your eight bazillion feats to get Master Craftsman.

I, as a warrior, never felt like a second class citizen or a third wheel. I always kept up. Was it more expensive? Sure. Not that it mattered. Was it sometimes a little more challenging? Absolutely. Was it ever not fun? Nope.

Always loved my Fighters. Always got love from my Wizards and Clerics. Always respected the Rogue. Why? We were a party. We were supposed to work together and support each other.

Why else would a Wizard take "Craft Magical Arms and Armor" when its not going to help him so much?


alexd1976 wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

I do this. It isn't punishment, it is adventuring. The Wizard is out of spells? Damn. How's the fighter doing? Still got a sword? Yup. :D

EXACTLY!

I played a Wizard for many a cycle and the most important thing you learn is "Conserve the good spells because the Evil Dark Lord Roxmeyefase isn't going to wait around for me to camp outside of his lair for 8 hours so I can stop the ritual with perfect dramatic timing."


Just posted this in a thread about FIXING martials, will add it here too.

If looking for changes to fix the issue, try:

Remove Fighter and Rogue class
Gestalt the two (add all abilities together, bonus feats AS WELL as Rogue abilities, sneak attack, armor training etc)

Saves-All good saves, as per monk.
Skills-8+, as per Rogue

At level 6, allow full attack as standard action.

Maybe consider giving them Fast heal at a later level... :D

Even fast heal 1 means WAY better endurance for an adventuring day. Grant it at level 12.

Scarab Sages

PIXIE DUST wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

A single wand gets 50 charges. A 20th level wizard doesn't get even that many spells per day if you add everything together. He barely pops over with a 30 Int. Even the 10 Int sorcerer only goes 4 spells over. And that's at 20th level, a time where you can afford a hundred CLW wands without even getting elbow-deep in your bag of holding.

In one straight run, the wands will always outlast the caster's spells.

But each charge heals for 1d8+1. It takes more than 1 charge to heal a fighter.. He is gonna be burning through those charges fast.

Or they pay 5000 gold for boots of the earth and have unlimited healing out of combat.


Aelryinth wrote:

As an aside, a place where martials DO get nice things is Warhammer 40k. The SPace Marines kinda get ALL the nice things, along with the Inquisitors. Because science can do almost anything magic can do there, and they DO it.

If you're just a grunt...hah, hold onto that lazgun and useless flak armor, baby.

==Aelryinth

There are two ways to be more powerful than a Spacemarine in the RPG: Be an ascended psyker with supernatural willpower or be a vindicare assassin


chaoseffect wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

1. Get rid of things which allow casters to replace martials. Getting rid of the huge self-buffs/polymorphing and summoning monsters would probably do it.

2. Get rid of long-term/immediate action defenses.

3. Make casters vulnerable when casting. Make it so that all of the best spells take at least a full round action to cast; even 3+ rounds wouldn't bother me for some.

These three things together would make it so that casters still pull out all of the craziness that they currently do - but they'd be reliant upon their blockers/martials to keep them safe while they do it.

1 and 2 I can see to some extent, but 3? Combat takes forever in Pathfinder already and you suggest telling someone that since they are currently casting a spell they might as well go home for the night as they won't get an action for the next hour or two? That's definitely not what you meant, but it would undoubtedly be a side effect.

Overall I think you are going in the wrong direction. I would rather see martials elevated, perhaps not by getting the ability to Teleport all willy nilly or create their own demiplanes, but getting more, superhuman-esque abilities. As much as I dislike the disparity and some spells shouldn't have been printed, I wouldn't want to see casters in general cut down at the knees.

When using idea 3 combat turns would be quicker as casters would not make several actions per turn.

Normal turns:
martial: Full attack *rolls 3 times to hit and damage all at once* done
Caster: Quickened spell, normal spell, familiar/AC/eidolon, summons, move action to use the effect of another spell cast earlier


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

oh god, everyone that says martials are fine, ONCE AGAIN MISSED THE G%$+*@N POINT!

the martial can swing his sword and kill things, the wizard can do that and more! (although the sword probably isn't specifically his, probably a dominated thrall's sword or something)

climb a 100 foot wall?
martial -> tons of skill checks, all of which might lead to you taking damage and wasting resources.
caster -> casts fly, spider climb, summoners a flying thing to help it, uses stone shape to create stairs.

infiltrate a fortress?
martial -> several hundred skill checks, planning and lucky breaks later, you might have gotten to your goal, fail any of those checks and you're done.
Wizard -> casts fly + invis

defeat an army?
martial -> kill everyone (at best negotiate a peace deal)
wizard -> summon monsters to help, dominate the captain, casts illusions to break enemy ranks and sow confusion, drop lava from orbit, raise a small group of bloody skeletons to attack the army, they will never be able to kill them without a cleric.

Need to get to a town quickly to alert them of an attack?
martial -> travel several days on foot or horseback
wizard -> teleport, summon a flying mount, overland flight, dream... *sigh*

it's not who can kill whom, STOP TRYING TO PROVE MARTIALS CAN KILL THINGS, ITS ABOUT THE NUMBER OF WAYS A WIZARD CAN OVERCOME AN OBSTACLE AND CHANGE THE STORY COMPARED TO A FIGHTER.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Just a Guess wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

As an aside, a place where martials DO get nice things is Warhammer 40k. The SPace Marines kinda get ALL the nice things, along with the Inquisitors. Because science can do almost anything magic can do there, and they DO it.

If you're just a grunt...hah, hold onto that lazgun and useless flak armor, baby.

==Aelryinth

There are two ways to be more powerful than a Spacemarine in the RPG: Be an ascended psyker with supernatural willpower or be a vindicare assassin

or worship the dark gods, there's that too. love worshiping grandpapa Nurgle.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Well, I'll note that elite Space Marines in the Darkwatch really, really, really get nice toys...gear and training. I think a Blood Angel can hit a melee line of enemies at the speed of sound and literally kill everything in their path.

High level space marines are able to take on the toughest enemies of Chaos or other races. They really do get Nice Stuff.

==Aelryinth


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Bandw2 makes a pretty good point.

Bandw2 wrote:

I fear that everyone claiming that martial characters are "fine as is," are all kind of missing the point.

A martial character can swing his sword and kill things well enough, sure, but the wizard can do that and more! (Although the sword probably isn't specifically his, probably a dominated thrall's sword or something.)

Climb a 100 foot high wall?
Non-Spellcasting Character -> Has to make tons of skill checks, only one of which needs to fail to have you taking damage and wasting resources.
Spellcasting Character -> casts fly, spider climb, summons a flying beast to carry him, uses stone shape to create stairs, etc.

Infiltrate a fortress?
Non-Spellcasting Character -> Has to make several hundred skill checks, must have careful planning and a few lucky breaks, you might have gotten to your goal, fail any of those checks and you're done.
Spellcasting Character -> Can use fly and invisibility or ethereal jaunt, or any number of other options.

Defeat an army?
Non-Spellcasting Character -> Can attempt to kill everyone (or, at best, negotiate a peace deal)
Spellcasting Character -> May summon monsters to help, dominate the enemy commander, cast illusions to break enemy ranks and sow confusion, drop lava from orbit, raise a small group of bloody skeletons to attack the army (which can't be killed without a cleric).

Need to get to a town quickly to alert them of an attack?
Non-Spellcasting character -> Must travel several days on foot or horseback
Spellcasting Character -> Could use teleport, animal messenger, summon a flying mount, cast overland flight, or dream, or a host of other spells.

It's not about who can kill whom. Everyone knows martial characters excel at killing things. It's about the number of ways a spellcaster can overcome an obstacles and change the story compared to the non-spellcaster.

Though people tend to respond better when you're not yelling at them. I've adjusted your quote to be a little less confrontational.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Though people tend to respond better when you're not yelling at them. I've adjusted your quote to be a little less confrontational.

just yelling at the sky, but thanks i guess.


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Bandw2 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Though people tend to respond better when you're not yelling at them. I've adjusted your quote to be a little less confrontational.
just yelling at the sky, but thanks i guess.

Stupid sky. Should be yelled at.

If it isn't pissing on you, it's burning you or keeping you in the dark.

*shakes fist upwards*


Bandw2 wrote:

oh god, everyone that says martials are fine, ONCE AGAIN MISSED THE G#%$&$N POINT!

the martial can swing his sword and kill things, the wizard can do that and more! (although the sword probably isn't specifically his, probably a dominated thrall's sword or something)

climb a 100 foot wall?
martial -> tons of skill checks, all of which might lead to you taking damage and wasting resources.

Take 10. DC30 to climb paper walls, so if I'm in an oriental style place the most I will ever need in climb is a 20. Fighter or Barbarian has that by around level 10. Lvl 7 or so you can start taking 10 on pretty much any other surface, easily hitting the DC25. Lvl 3 characters can hit the DC20 on most walls.
Quote:


caster -> casts fly, spider climb, summoners a flying thing to help it, uses stone shape to create stairs.
Thus wasting a second level spell, at minimum, that he likely had to prepare for in advance.
Quote:

infiltrate a fortress?
martial -> several hundred skill checks, planning and lucky breaks later, you might have gotten to your goal, fail any of those checks and you're done.

I take 10. No generic guard can perceive me, even if they roll nat 20, but they should be taking 10 as well. If I do get found, I bluff past them, also taking 10. I don't even need to spend significant points to climb most walls, as the DCs are pathetic.
Quote:


Wizard -> casts fly + invis
And then defensive magic reveals an illusion and transmutation aura and the entire fortress is put on alert. Your plan is fooled by a 1000gp CR1 alarm trap with arcane sight. Not to mention that you have only a handful of minutes unless you recast. I fear skill monkeys more than casters as a GM. The skill monkey can infiltrate days in advance and never get caught.
Quote:

defeat an army?
martial -> kill everyone (at best negotiate a peace deal)

I had a player poison the food supply. Spent a couple days infiltrating the camp, scouting, and then poisoned the water and food. A couple dead animals will poison a well. Its trivial to sabatoge the karts moving the food. See above where stealth, disguise, and bluff will easily allow you to blend in as a camp follower. Worst case scenario, he ties up all of low level casters in the army. He was way more effective than anything the casters could do, and spent far fewer resources doing it. Decimated the army and destroyed their morale. An army marches on its stomach.

Quote:


wizard -> summon monsters to help, dominate the captain, casts illusions to break enemy ranks and sow confusion, drop lava from orbit, raise a small group of bloody skeletons to attack the army, they will never be able to kill them without a cleric.
Love how enemy armies never have their own caster support or counters.
Quote:

Need to get to a town quickly to alert them of an attack?
martial -> travel several days on foot or horseback
wizard -> teleport, summon a flying mount, overland flight, dream... *sigh*

Here you actually have a point. One of the places casters excel at is communication and movement.. Not everyone needs to be good at everything.

Quote:


it's not who can kill whom, STOP TRYING TO PROVE MARTIALS CAN KILL THINGS, ITS ABOUT THE NUMBER OF WAYS A WIZARD CAN OVERCOME AN OBSTACLE AND CHANGE THE STORY COMPARED TO A FIGHTER.

I think your playing martials wrong.


alexd1976 wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

I do this. It isn't punishment, it is adventuring. The Wizard is out of spells? Damn. How's the fighter doing? Still got a sword? Yup. :D

This happened twice in the last dungeon I put my players through. End result was that they couldn't regain their spells a second time, so they had to retreat from the dungeon and the end boss came out and attacked them instead before they could rest. At that point all of the martials were good to go, but the 2 casters were tapped out, so they retreated. End result, casters almost died, martials killed the BBEG.


Caineach wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

I do this. It isn't punishment, it is adventuring. The Wizard is out of spells? Damn. How's the fighter doing? Still got a sword? Yup. :D
This happened twice in the last dungeon I put my players through. End result was that they couldn't regain their spells a second time, so they had to retreat from the dungeon and the end boss came out and attacked them instead before they could rest. At that point all of the martials were good to go, but the 2 casters were tapped out, so they retreated. End result, casters almost died, martials killed the BBEG.

Hope the martials got the recognition they deserved on that one... free drinks for life! :D


Caineach wrote:
I think your playing martials wrong.

One major issue here is that the casters' narrative abilities are written directly into the rules, whereas the martials' narrative options consist of a game of "mother-may-I" between the player and the DM. It's almost as if they designers ran out of time and stopped writing the rules halfway through, but still charge full price for the rulebook. (Or, if you are one of the Magical Tea Party people anyway, the designers pointlessly wrote hundreds of pages of text you don't want, and have the gall to charge you for them when you buy the rulebook.)

Also, your points might carry more weight if you're paying enough attention to use the correct words in making them.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Caineach wrote:


#1) Take 10. DC30 to climb paper walls, so if I'm in an oriental style place the most I will ever need in climb is a 20. Fighter or Barbarian has that by around level 10. Lvl 7 or so you can start taking 10 on pretty much any other surface, easily hitting the DC25. Lvl 3 characters can hit the DC20 on most walls.

#2) Thus wasting a second level spell, at minimum, that he likely had to prepare for in advance.

#3)I take 10. No generic guard can perceive me, even if they roll nat 20, but they should be taking 10 as well. If I do get found, I bluff past them, also taking 10. I don't even need to spend significant points to climb most walls, as the DCs are pathetic.

#4)And then defensive magic reveals an illusion and transmutation aura and the entire fortress is put on alert. Your plan is fooled by a 1000gp CR1 alarm trap with arcane sight. Not to mention that you have only a handful of minutes unless you recast. I fear skill monkeys more than casters as a GM. The skill monkey can infiltrate days in advance and never get caught.

#5) I had a player poison the food supply. Spent a couple days infiltrating the camp, scouting, and then poisoned the water and food. A couple dead animals will poison a well. Its trivial to sabatoge the karts moving the food. See above where stealth, disguise, and bluff will easily allow you to blend in as a camp follower. Worst case scenario, he ties up all of low level casters in the army. He was way more effective than anything the casters could do, and spent far fewer resources doing it. Decimated the army and destroyed their morale. An army marches on its stomach.

#6) Love how enemy armies never have their own caster support or counters.

#1) wasted skill points on climb, or point buy points on intelligence

#2) if you don't have open spell slots on a prepared caster you're playing them wrong

#3) The guard dogs with scent find you, GG. you can't stealth while climbing walls(or maybe you can if you move 5 feet at a time with double half movement or take penalties to one or both skill checks). I suppose you could several feats and talents later, but then you're costing your overall build in how it deals with a fight. if even one guard finds you in any circumstance, you cannot currently kill him without everyone getting a perception check with a DC of -10 to hear combat...

I mean if we're getting into it a simple alarm spell would alert everyone... and then they start taking 20 searching everywhere. if you EVER rely on dim light, all i need is any guards with dark vision or low light vision to completely negate your stealth. hellcat stealth doesn't work in dim light/darkness when the guy has dark vision...

#4) caster beats caster, this is irrelevant to a martial vs caster disparity discussion

#5) either the GM was extremely liberal in how easy it was to poison a food supply, or you payed out the nose for decent poison. any decent army has a supply chain, even in the ancient world, so food spoilage wouldn't effect it, this would have to have been poison that lasts days or killed large portions of the army.

#6) caster beats caster, this is irrelevant to a martial vs caster disparity discussion


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Caineach wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

I do this. It isn't punishment, it is adventuring. The Wizard is out of spells? Damn. How's the fighter doing? Still got a sword? Yup. :D
This happened twice in the last dungeon I put my players through. End result was that they couldn't regain their spells a second time, so they had to retreat from the dungeon and the end boss came out and attacked them instead before they could rest. At that point all of the martials were good to go, but the 2 casters were tapped out, so they retreated. End result, casters almost died, martials killed the BBEG.

here's the thing, i get to 50% me and the martials start looking for a way to bunker down. they attack I still have spells, but I try to keep the expenditure down, if the BBEG comes then I nova and am fine with the martials dealing with the rest as we clear the place.

bunkering down when at 10% or 25% means they pushed too far before trying to rest.


Here's my point.

A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.

A good GM will mold a campaign to make it fun but challenging to a party, regardless of makeup, even if that means altering the structure of the previously built world.

A good GM will give reason to combine martials with casters, and allow all classes equal room to shine. Situations will vary, giving specific PCs chances to influence encounters in their own way.

Likewise, a GM has a responsibility to punish those who find themselves too dependent on one strategy. (See Dominant Strategy and its effect on human problem solving abilities.)

I've always seen creativity and critical thinking as the two most important attributes a player can have, when coming into tabletop gaming. I build my worlds such that players who use these attributes will be rewarded, while those who rely on dominant strategy (IE, One solution to every problem) are punished, not unfairly of course.

Martials and Casters both have nice things, what really matters, and changes things, is whether or not the player has a nice brain.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Caineach wrote:
This happened twice in the last dungeon I put my players through. End result was that they couldn't regain their spells a second time, so they had to retreat from the dungeon and the end boss came out and attacked them instead before they could rest. At that point all of the martials were good to go, but the 2 casters were tapped out, so they retreated. End result, casters almost died, martials killed the BBEG.

So the BBEG was weak enough to die to a skeleton crew. (Assuming a standard 4-man group, literally half of the party was sufficient to face him and come out victorious).


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Soilent wrote:

Here's my point.

A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.

but here's the thing when everyone's a wizard the party has so many more options available to the GM and to the party.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Caineach wrote:
This happened twice in the last dungeon I put my players through. End result was that they couldn't regain their spells a second time, so they had to retreat from the dungeon and the end boss came out and attacked them instead before they could rest. At that point all of the martials were good to go, but the 2 casters were tapped out, so they retreated. End result, casters almost died, martials killed the BBEG.
So the BBEG was weak enough to die to a skeleton crew. (Assuming a standard 4-man group, literally half of the party was sufficient to face him and come out victorious).

he also lost his territorial advantage by attacking the party.


Bandw2 wrote:
Soilent wrote:

Here's my point.

A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.

but here's the thing when everyone's a wizard the party has so many more options available to the GM and to the party.

Just no.

I'd never allow that group.

If your GM does, fair play to them, but that will never happen at my table.

EDIT: In the event that somehow I did, you can be damn sure I'd be removing a number of spells from the game.

Teleport being the first.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Soilent wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Soilent wrote:

Here's my point.

A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.

but here's the thing when everyone's a wizard the party has so many more options available to the GM and to the party.

Just no.

I'd never allow that group.

If your GM does, fair play to them, but that will never happen at my table.

EDIT: In the event that somehow I did, you can be damn sure I'd be removing a number of spells from the game.

Teleport being the first.

"There's no problem here I can remove spells from the game!"

Really? Please rethink what you just said. Or direct your attention to
The Eight Primary Game Design Fallacies thread, you are committing #5.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Soilent wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Soilent wrote:

Here's my point.

A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.

but here's the thing when everyone's a wizard the party has so many more options available to the GM and to the party.

Just no.

I'd never allow that group.

If your GM does, fair play to them, but that will never happen at my table.

EDIT: In the event that somehow I did, you can be damn sure I'd be removing a number of spells from the game.

Teleport being the first.

so you agree with us then? i mean if you personally want to fix the disparity, why can't paizo?


Bandw2 wrote:
Caineach wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

I do this. It isn't punishment, it is adventuring. The Wizard is out of spells? Damn. How's the fighter doing? Still got a sword? Yup. :D
This happened twice in the last dungeon I put my players through. End result was that they couldn't regain their spells a second time, so they had to retreat from the dungeon and the end boss came out and attacked them instead before they could rest. At that point all of the martials were good to go, but the 2 casters were tapped out, so they retreated. End result, casters almost died, martials killed the BBEG.

here's the thing, i get to 50% me and the martials start looking for a way to bunker down. they attack I still have spells, but I try to keep the expenditure down, if the BBEG comes then I nova and am fine with the martials dealing with the rest as we clear the place.

bunkering down when at 10% or 25% means they pushed too far before trying to rest.

You would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.

That might be why casters aren't seen as the be-all, end-all in my games. They do reach a point where they stop being useful. Fighters never run out of sword.

Scarab Sages

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DM_Blake wrote:

So, yeah, martials don't get nice things.

That's how it works.

Time to move on and quit complaining about it.

Going back to the closing remark of the OP, I'll move on when all the martial classes are officially reclassified as NPC classes.

Until then, if they are going to be presented as PC options for people to play then they should be able to contribute an equal amount to the overall success as a caster, instead of being the mascot.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So what you're saying is "if the party is all spellcasters, I have to nerf them." How exactly is that saying that party makeup doesn't matter?

Let's get real. A party of Paladin/Bard/Druid/Sorcerer is hilariously more effective than a party of Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard, because the first group is full of people who can contribute all the time. The second group has more powerful spellcasters, yes, but half the group is effectively just there to soak hits and solve problems in the least effective and efficient way possible.

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