I find a lot of people also don't bother to look at what percentage of their resources they are spending just to stay alive. They talk about having mirror image up, but that takes a turn to activate, wont even last you a full combat, and spends a spell slot. That's not something you want to invest in before about 7th level, and even then you can't rely on it every time.it lasts for minutes per level... you can clear several rooms with that, if you actually have manageable dex with any sort of other AC buffs they can last a good amount of time.
If the attack misses you by 5, it destroys an image. Even with mage armor and a decent dex, things will have no problem destroying one. By level 7, enemies will be destroying at least 2 images a round. If you are the target of attacks, don't expect the spell to protect you more than 2 rounds. Hell, villains shouldn't even bother with the spell because it will be gone before their next turn IME.
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And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.
I get it it's ok no need to be belligerent.
Yet I repeat my point martial and magic-user operate a their best when working together. Martial CAN and SHOULD use magic, they cannot economically do it as well and often as a wizard. But they can, magic is awesome and in a high fantasy game like pathfinder should be used to fix problems! But let's be honest here, martial have nice things, they have nice archetypes now, if you play core only well it's another story.
You can say mages win 100% in all situation and you know what you are probably right, a party of 4 wizards can probably clear every adventure path out there. On paper again it work super fine. In practice it does not, because in the span of that 4 to 8 hour game session you will get tired and will make the wrong decision every now and then. At this point you will be happy to have a tank to take that hit for you or a gunslinger taking care of that guy grappling you and pinning you down.
And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.
The wizard can just leave one spell slot open, and prep it when he needs it.
The fact is that casting teleport even once per day fundamentally alters the sorts of challenges the party can and cannot handle
Same thing for speak with dead, fly, planar binding, raise dead, charm person, contact other plane ectcetera ectcetera ectcetera.
Try to say that about dazzling display.
And what DM would allow all that to just happen?In Pathfinder, unlimited wealth + crafting skills is the most powerful thing in the game. Doesn't really matter what class you are if you have time, but wizards and witches do it fastest.
A friend and I tried it once, just to have some fun.
** spoiler omitted **...
Maybe a GM who doesn't know how to calculate the price of magic items?
Do you know how much an At Will ring of wishes costs? about 275,000 gold.Way, way, way off. In fact, you're off by nearly a factor of 10.
Spell Level (SL): 9
Caster Level (CL): 17 (Wizard)
Component Cost (CC): 25,000
Formula: (SL * CL * 2,000)/2 + CC * 100
Cost: (9 * 17 * 2,000)/2 + 25,000 * 100 = 2,653,000That's your cost to make it. It's 2,806,000 to buy it. You could shave 15,300 gp off of the cost to make it (or 30,600 off the cost to buy it) if you want ti to be Command Word rather than At Will.
Forgot a zero.
Wouldn't matter anyway. Practically unlimited money, remember? That was the point of the exercise.
Magic items are intended as the factor that makes this higher-level (and therefore more wealthy) fighter more threatening, but that strikes me as poorly thought-out since it's much easier for full-casting classes to be master crafters than martial classes, and therefore it's a simple matter for a crafter to have more magical items sooner since he gets them on the cheap and his build doesn't need nearly as many feats so he can blow quite a number of them on covering his full crafting needs without losing his effectiveness at anything else.
Maybe, but a fighter with a really cool item that duplicates a great spell is very likely to use it, and very likely to feel more powerful because of it. A caster with that same item is more likely to feel like "Ho hum, I could do this anyway".
Or to put it another way, the crafters may have items but it doesn't really alter their overall power level much, other than letting them do more often that which they already do, but the martials buying these items from crafters (or hopefully just paying the material cost) really do get a big increase in power.
And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.The wizard can just leave one spell slot open, and prep it when he needs it.
The fact is that casting teleport even once per day fundamentally alters the sorts of challenges the party can and cannot handle
Same thing for speak with dead, fly, planar binding, raise dead, charm person, contact other plane ectcetera ectcetera ectcetera.
Try to say that about dazzling display.
I always love the idea of wasting 15 minutes to let the wizard prepare a GTFO spell.
And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.The wizard can just leave one spell slot open, and prep it when he needs it.
The fact is that casting teleport even once per day fundamentally alters the sorts of challenges the party can and cannot handle
Same thing for speak with dead, fly, planar binding, raise dead, charm person, contact other plane ectcetera ectcetera ectcetera.
Try to say that about dazzling display.
Scrolls and potions,
Scrolls and potions!Repeat after me:
All Characters CAN and SHOULD use magic.
UMD is there for a reason.
Murdering the main villain in one rounds with a lot of bullets can also fundamentally change the campaign, negotiating with a king can also change the campaign.
I always love the idea of wasting 15 minutes to let the wizard prepare a GTFO spell.And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.The wizard can just leave one spell slot open, and prep it when he needs it.
The fact is that casting teleport even once per day fundamentally alters the sorts of challenges the party can and cannot handle
Same thing for speak with dead, fly, planar binding, raise dead, charm person, contact other plane ectcetera ectcetera ectcetera.
Try to say that about dazzling display.
A Wizard not taking Fast Study? That's like a non-AM Barbarian, or Paladin who decided to take an archetype to lose charisma to saves.
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And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.I get it it's ok no need to be belligerent.
Yet I repeat my point martial and magic-user operate a their best when working together. Martial CAN and SHOULD use magic, they cannot economically do it as well and often as a wizard. But they can, magic is awesome and in a high fantasy game like pathfinder should be used to fix problems! But let's be honest here, martial have nice things, they have nice archetypes now, if you play core only well it's another story.
You can say mages win 100% in all situation and you know what you are probably right, a party of 4 wizards can probably clear every adventure path out there. On paper again it work super fine. In practice it does not, because in the span of that 4 to 8 hour game session you will get tired and will make the wrong decision every now and then. At this point you will be happy to have a tank to take that hit for you or a gunslinger taking care of that guy grappling you and pinning you down.
You are conflating martial caster disparity with party imbalance.
Stop thinking that people are saying "WIZARDS ARE BETTER THAN EVERYTHING WITHOUT PILES OF MAGIC ALL THE TIME". We aren't. Wizards are just the go-to. Start thinking "For almost every role a mundane can fill in the system, a caster class can fill the same role better while matching or outdoing pretty much everything else that mundane does". I would much rather have a party of Cleric, Druid*, Bard*, Wizard than a party of Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Fighter. Bard>>>Rogue, and Wildshape Druid>>>>Fighter.
*there are so many different things I could put here that it isn't funny. Another cleric, inquisitor, magus, investigator, alchemist, skald, shaman, maybe a witch. Lots of options, all of which can do the fighter's and the rogue's job, and oodles of other things on top of that.
And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.The wizard can just leave one spell slot open, and prep it when he needs it.
The fact is that casting teleport even once per day fundamentally alters the sorts of challenges the party can and cannot handle
Same thing for speak with dead, fly, planar binding, raise dead, charm person, contact other plane ectcetera ectcetera ectcetera.
Try to say that about dazzling display.
Scrolls and potions,
Scroll and potions!Repeat after me:
All Characters CAN and SHOULD use magic.UMD is there for a reason.
Murdering the main villain in one rounds with a lot of bullets can also fundamentally change the campaign, negotiating with a king can also change the campaign.
Which comes back to the money issue.
I read an article once about how the best caster possible was a Paladin with very high UMD and tons of money.
Just buy lots of scrolls and wands.
And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.The wizard can just leave one spell slot open, and prep it when he needs it.
The fact is that casting teleport even once per day fundamentally alters the sorts of challenges the party can and cannot handle
Same thing for speak with dead, fly, planar binding, raise dead, charm person, contact other plane ectcetera ectcetera ectcetera.
Try to say that about dazzling display.
Scrolls and potions,
Scrolls and potions!Repeat after me:
All Characters CAN and SHOULD use magic.UMD is there for a reason.
Murdering the main villain in one rounds with a lot of bullets can also fundamentally change the campaign, negotiating with a king can also change the campaign.
If all characters are using magic, even a terrible GM knows how to kick their legs out from under them.
Silence would absolutely wreck a magic-dependent party.
Feel free to think that magic will solve all your party's problems, but the GM has every right (I'd call it a responsibility) to rip your heart out for thinking that way.
Silence would absolutely wreck a magic-dependent party.
Feel free to think that magic will solve all your party's problems, but the GM has every right (I'd call it a responsibility) to rip your heart out for thinking that way.
If an enemy casts Silence on you, you audibly laugh as it is a Will save. If they cast it on the area, you walk out of it.
And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.The wizard can just leave one spell slot open, and prep it when he needs it.
The fact is that casting teleport even once per day fundamentally alters the sorts of challenges the party can and cannot handle
Same thing for speak with dead, fly, planar binding, raise dead, charm person, contact other plane ectcetera ectcetera ectcetera.
Try to say that about dazzling display.
Scrolls and potions,
Scroll and potions!Repeat after me:
All Characters CAN and SHOULD use magic.UMD is there for a reason.
Murdering the main villain in one rounds with a lot of bullets can also fundamentally change the campaign, negotiating with a king can also change the campaign.Which comes back to the money issue.
I read an article once about how the best caster possible was a Paladin with very high UMD and tons of money.
Just buy lots of scrolls and wands.
Reminds me of a hilarious 3.5 monk build.
It basically amounted to "buy ALL the wands, and use your excellent move speed to run away while you apply them to yourself. Once you are buffed, you can take on a wizard".
Anyway, blowing piles of money on scrolls and potions comes with a non-trivial opportunity cost. Trying to fake being a caster actually makes a mundane suck even more at their job, unless they have a lot of money lying around.
Also, mundanes aren't any better at killing main villains than casters. Casters will probably do a better job. Mundanes don't have any particular advantage with a king either. On the other hand, casters can afford to spend more resources on being better at diplomacy, since they aren't struggling to do their job in the face of enemies who also possess magic.
If an enemy casts Silence on you, you audibly laugh as it is a Will save. If they cast it on the area, you walk out of it.Silence would absolutely wreck a magic-dependent party.
Feel free to think that magic will solve all your party's problems, but the GM has every right (I'd call it a responsibility) to rip your heart out for thinking that way.
It's quite surprising to some players how quickly their saves can be rendered useless, through conditions.
So the conclusion is that, now with all the class options we have, no one should play anything that has not at least 6 spell level progression? I can actually live with that.
Good luck getting those conditions to stick, and having the round afterwards to use your silence spell or ability.
My players don't tend to be Munchkins, so I rarely have to deal with this sort of behavior anyway.
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Good luck getting those conditions to stick, and having the round afterwards to use your silence spell or ability.My players don't tend to be Munchkins, so I rarely have to deal with this sort of behavior anyway.
Good for you?
Good for you?Good luck getting those conditions to stick, and having the round afterwards to use your silence spell or ability.My players don't tend to be Munchkins, so I rarely have to deal with this sort of behavior anyway.
How appropriate.
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Good luck getting those conditions to stick, and having the round afterwards to use your silence spell or ability.My players don't tend to be Munchkins, so I rarely have to deal with this sort of behavior anyway.
What defines a 'munchkin' to you? I don't think anyone thinks of themselves as a munchkin due to the negative connotations - munchkins are those jerks over there who play noticeably more powerful characters than you do.
And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.The wizard can just leave one spell slot open, and prep it when he needs it.
The fact is that casting teleport even once per day fundamentally alters the sorts of challenges the party can and cannot handle
Same thing for speak with dead, fly, planar binding, raise dead, charm person, contact other plane ectcetera ectcetera ectcetera.
Try to say that about dazzling display.
Scrolls and potions,
Scroll and potions!Repeat after me:
All Characters CAN and SHOULD use magic.UMD is there for a reason.
Murdering the main villain in one rounds with a lot of bullets can also fundamentally change the campaign, negotiating with a king can also change the campaign.Which comes back to the money issue.
I read an article once about how the best caster possible was a Paladin with very high UMD and tons of money.
Just buy lots of scrolls and wands.
Reminds me of a hilarious 3.5 monk build.
It basically amounted to "buy ALL the wands, and use your excellent move speed to run away while you apply them to yourself. Once you are buffed, you can take on a wizard".
Anyway, blowing piles of money on scrolls and potions comes with a non-trivial opportunity cost. Trying to fake being a caster actually makes a mundane suck even more at their job, unless they have a lot of money lying around.
Also, mundanes aren't any better at killing main villains than casters. Casters will probably do a better job. Mundanes don't have any particular advantage with a king either. On the other hand, casters can afford to spend more resources on being better at diplomacy, since they aren't struggling to do their job in the face of enemies who also possess magic.
Dude you win I get it.
No more will I ever allow anyone to play a class that that not at least 6 spell level at my table. You are right, these classes are useless and obsolete.
It's quite surprising to some players how quickly their saves can be rendered useless, through conditions.If an enemy casts Silence on you, you audibly laugh as it is a Will save. If they cast it on the area, you walk out of it.Silence would absolutely wreck a magic-dependent party.
Feel free to think that magic will solve all your party's problems, but the GM has every right (I'd call it a responsibility) to rip your heart out for thinking that way.
I am pretty sure that it is a lot easier to wreck mundanes though.
Sure you can carefully craft an environment and a scenario to make sure that your shut down tactic goes off and wrecks a magic heavy party. There needs to be a lot of effort to make sure it happens, though, and the PCs still could surprise you.
It is a lot easier to wreck a mundane party, so they are still losing in that regard.
So the conclusion is that, now with all the class options we have, no one should play anything that has not at least 6 spell level progression? I can actually live with that.
If you cut out everything BUT 6th level casters, you end up with a pretty balanced game, amusingly enough. You could probably add in classes like the paladin, barbarian and ranger too. There are still some problems (like a lack of status removal at appropriate levels e.g. no remove blindness until level 7). Still a lot easier to house rule into some semblance of balance than the mess of fighters competing against druids that we have now.
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It's less "martials never get nice things" and more "martials sometimes get nice things, as a footnote to the 50 nice things spellcasters got in each and every supplement that comes out."
I do absolutely agree that everyone can and should have access to magic. I don't mean that through UMD, potions and wands, though. Master Craftsman is such a hilarious trap feat that I can't even begin to explain my problem with it.
At least I have PoW and Psionics to feed all my effective martial concepts. The sooner folk stop restricting themselves to Paizo's ineffectual mundane martials, the happier they'll be.
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Did Hercules wait for a magic user to come along and help him with his labors? Did Beowulf wait for buff spells before he torn Grendel's arms off? Did Cuchulain need scrolls and potions to single-handedly defend a city?
Exactly. So just go out and bloody well do it rather than whinge about not having the tools for it.
I always love the idea of wasting 15 minutes to let the wizard prepare a GTFO spell.And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.The wizard can just leave one spell slot open, and prep it when he needs it.
The fact is that casting teleport even once per day fundamentally alters the sorts of challenges the party can and cannot handle
Same thing for speak with dead, fly, planar binding, raise dead, charm person, contact other plane ectcetera ectcetera ectcetera.
Try to say that about dazzling display.
10 seconds in real life or an extra combat for the day.
Martial should have BAB dependent UBER feats to even try to compete with anything with more than 4 spell levels.
Feats that maximize damage.
Save or suck attacks.
Automatic crits feats.
ect...
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Did Hercules wait for a magic user to come along and help him with his labors? Did Beowulf wait for buff spells before he torn Grendel's arms off? Did Cuchulain need scrolls and potions to single-handedly defend a city?Exactly. So just go out and bloody well do it rather than whinge about not having the tools for it.
Well, you know, unless you don't have the tools to do the thing you're trying to do.
Party with no casters: "Quick! The villain teleported 1000 miles away to his secret lair! We must stop him before he finishes his evil plot 2 days from now!"
Pwnc: "S!+%."
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I feel a good way to solve the problem is to get rid of feat chains. By feat chains I mean feat x improved feat x greater feat x. Reduce these to one feat and keep all the other prerequisites, except when you reach the prerequisite bab you just gain the equivalent of the improved version.
Then have high bab feats that act as spectacularly as spells, though more circumstantial. Say the seven league step ability, well make it a feat with a high bab requirement, and improve on it further, when you get even more bab you can pick up a number of creatures equal to your strength modifier and jump with them, how you accomplish this is up to you. Ropes are a standard choice.
Or a feat with 15 bab, 25 strength required you stomp the ground so forcefully that it creates an earthquake as the spell. Why not? -Edit- okay maybe have a higher bab requirement for that, or make it uses per day, still.
Did Hercules wait for a magic user to come along and help him with his labors? Did Beowulf wait for buff spells before he torn Grendel's arms off? Did Cuchulain need scrolls and potions to single-handedly defend a city?Exactly. So just go out and bloody well do it rather than whinge about not having the tools for it.Well, you know, unless you don't have the tools to do the thing you're trying to do.
Party with no casters: "Quick! The villain teleported 1000 miles away to his secret lair! We must stop him before he finishes his evil plot 2 days from now!"
Pwnc: "S++!."
That's not a problem for a party, it's a problem for the GM.
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Well, you know, unless you don't have the tools to do the thing you're trying to do.
Then you harden up and accept the results, and let the GM deal with it if he doesn't like it.
Obviously the solution is to move time and space around you with sheer willpower and scientific might.
I prefer rediscovering teleportation through sheer determination to punch someone in the face.
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Did Hercules wait for a magic user to come along and help him with his labors? Did Beowulf wait for buff spells before he torn Grendel's arms off? Did Cuchulain need scrolls and potions to single-handedly defend a city?Exactly. So just go out and bloody well do it rather than whinge about not having the tools for it.Well, you know, unless you don't have the tools to do the thing you're trying to do.
Party with no casters: "Quick! The villain teleported 1000 miles away to his secret lair! We must stop him before he finishes his evil plot 2 days from now!"
Pwnc: "S++!."
That's not a problem for a party, it's a problem for the GM.
No it's a problem with the game system ...
Why are there metamagic feats, most of them with NO REQUIREMENTS and no meta combat feats? I should have the right at level 15 to be able to hit a guy so hard he has to do a will save or be dazed. I should have the option to empower my attacks so they inflict 50% more damage. Sure it's ok if I cannot fly or something, but the problem is that magic cost nothing. Magic should take a toll or something, like for instance after casting a spell you are fatigued, then exhausted then you have to do a save or fall unconscious or something.
@Soilent and TOZ: I get the feeling you both are engaging in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with the current context.
WTF is context?
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Well I tried to showcase that yes, martial have nice thing.
Then I got told that I was wrong and I realize that I was.
Martial sucks in the short, medium and long run.
There is barely any cool factor to play one.
level 6 and level 9 spell levels caster are better all around at any task a martial can even try to do.
Martial are obsolete if you play a standard 20 point buy game.
Even a super optimized martial character past level 10 will struggle against any other plainly built character when facing a challenge.
Climb a 100 feet wall:
- Martial -> Minimum 4 round even with insane skills checks.
- Magic -> fly, spider climb, teleport, summon monster something big with wings to carry me on top.
Infiltrate(sneak into) a castle:
- Martial -> maybe 2 hours of planning and insane difficulty to go through any sort of plan involving a grappling hook and a trillion of skill check. Any skill check fail is failure.
- Magic -> fly + invisibility
Go retrieve a treasure at the bottom of a lake:
- Martial -> lots of checks every fail is potential death.
- Magic -> there is like a billion spells to grab the treasure or just allow you to go under water without any problem.
Fight a monster:
- Martial -> Fight them hope to not roll a 1
- Magic -> cast any spell with no chance of failure or whatever
Negotiate a peace treaty:
- Martial -> hope to all the gods you will not mess up your skill checks
- Magic -> dominate person, charm person, summon a freaking angel to negotiate for you.
I cannot imagine any situation pass level 5 where somebody with full BAB or 3/4 and no spell ability can even try to compete.
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Well, you know, unless you don't have the tools to do the thing you're trying to do.Then you harden up and accept the results, and let the GM deal with it if he doesn't like it.
Obviously the solution is to move time and space around you with sheer willpower and scientific might.I prefer rediscovering teleportation through sheer determination to punch someone in the face.
If only all the Gurren Lagann dubs had as much enthusiasm as the Russian one.
Speaking of, Gurren Lagann is a perfect example of mundanes solving problems without magic. It's sheer unadulterated will to kick ass that gets things done in that universe, and it simply can't be replicated in Pathfinder. You can't make giant constructs out of stubborn resolve, and you can't teleport across time and space simply by screaming HAU KUSHIBARE!
Luckily Veiled Moon, Shattered Mirror, Cursed Razor and Eternal Guardian have your back on that last bit. The Path of War is a good one.
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In fairness with regards to the "teleporting" example, I don't have any problem with casters being able to do things martials can't do. Keeps things interesting. Martials should have ways to mitigate it, but there should be some sort of gap. There's nothing wrong with casters having options martials lack...if martials have options casters lack. And they really, really don't.
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Some people will be quick to point out Mr. Wizard isn't so tough when you catch him unawares and he doesn't go first, which is why it kind of irks me that the ability to never be surprised and pretty much always go first is a wizard class feature and not a martial one.
I'd like to take a moment to point out how utterly ridiculous this truth is. A first level diviner with a 16 dexterity, a familiar, and a single feat can have a +12 to initiative. Make him an elf with a race trait and an alternate racial trait and this becomes a +16. This is already higher than most characters will obtain for a lot of classes. And it scales with level. Add in the fact that they always act in surprise rounds, and they effectively can counter-ambush anyone by around 7th level assuming they prepare a few basic utility spells daily (I like to try having fly, a scroll of blur, invisibility, and dimension door myslef).
At higher levels? A ranger ambushes an equal-level wizard matching the one above loosely at seventh level or higher and is shut down in the first round by a 2nd level spell (invisibility). 2nd round? When the ranger could have, in theory, pinpointed the wizard? The wizard could have dimension-doored out of bow range, encased the ranger in a hemisphere of ice, made a wall of wind that fully stopped all of the ranger's attacks (if ranged), or any number of other things without breaking invisibility and losing its huge stealth bonus.
Reverse the situation (with the wizard ambushing the ranger) and the outcome is even more unbalanced. Because the wizard, even without knowing he was targeting the ranger in his favored terrain right after the ranger prepared his spells, as the first favored enemy, could have a bunch more defensive buffs, and start with something like a cloud spell or wind wallbto further the disadvantage.
And lets not get started on what problems a fighter would have instead.
Now, these situations may not come up too much in one game, but situations where the party can prepare for an ambush v. most martials are usually going to end betternor quicker than one v. many different full casters because of the basic principles demonstrated above.
2 things i would like to mention:
There is a reason SM is better than SNA. TuTurns out being able to summon creatures that can cast Mass Cure Crit and Heal is better than a Storm Giant...
And
A party of a blaster wizard, a witch, a master summoner, and a Str Magus or druid can pretty much stomp any full mundane party in nearly everything....
Heck a Master Summoner can commpletely invalidate a fightr...
I'm iffy about the old style "automatically get an army as you become badass" class mechanic, but I'd settle for the level 20 dude being able to leap frog his way with 50 feet at a time jumps the whole way or something similar.when you need to be 10 miles away right now, do you want the barbarian? or the wizard that prepared teleport? that's the real disparity, not who get's to kill whom.I dream of a game in which you want the fighter, because he shoots up a flare and an entire infantry battalion shows up where you need them, instead of just a wizard teleporting in.There's a comic where a cop clocks the Hulk hurrying somewhere at 475mph. That's a bit over a minute to get ten miles.
He's also not the fastest superhero on the planet.
The Hulk can jump fast enough to hit outer space. He routinely jumps 3 miles at a time.
If you do the math on the normal jump, he's jumping at about Mach 3.To make outer space, 20 miles up? A lot faster.
No, he's not the fastest. But he can get anywhere on a battlefield very, very quickly.
==Aelryinth
I really like Spheres of Power as a replacement for the magic system in this regard. It turns all magic into something like 'feat trees' instead of spell slots yet keeps the coolness of being a caster. They're just not steamrolling all over the martials anymore (and martials can use the same system to build supernatural strikes and stances and stuff).
In Star Wars, Han Solo is a really good "martial", even with a ranged attack, but Luke could defeat him in the blink of an eye even after training with Ben Kenobi for only the length of a single trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (where Luke learned to deflect blasters with the Force).You know, I hear people mention Jedi a lot in these sorts of threads, and it makes me wonder if they've really thought the comparison out.
The Jedi (and Sith) focus primarily on their lightsaber duels. That's what we regard as "awesome" about them. Sure, their reflexes and stuff are enhanced by the midichlorians, blah blah blah, but that's all flavor text for things lots of action movies would just handwave because it looks cool. Jedi are martials with some spell-like abilities. Luke hardly ever uses the Force, save for the odd enchantment effect (only on the weak-minded) or a bit of telekinetics. Basically, he's a monk with one or two levels in
sorcererpsychic.With the exception of Yoda and Palpatine (and one scene where Darth Vader deflected blaster shots with his hand), the "martial" aspect of the force-users is always the side that ends battles (hell, Palpatine was undone with a grapple check). I could easily argue that Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul and Luke are great examples of martials done right—sure, the monks have a few showy magic tricks, but they're always melee fighters first and foremost. Why can't paladins and fighters get some of that action? ;D
This X1000
Just look at any medium to high powered fantasy and you see the martials being awesome. At best, they are some hybrid gish, but they almost always favor the martial aspects. The fact that they are more or less impossible to build in d&d style games is one reason why I'm looking at other systems.
Star Wars is not one of those.
Look at EVERY circumstance where Jedi fight non-Jedi. They curb stomp them. Mace Windu takes on an entire robot army by himself, brings down a huge ship solo, and does most of it without his lightsaber.If you read the books, you'd know the major power of the Force for Jedi is not TK. It's their ability to be aware of everything going around them and respond to it as or before it happens.
You can't surprise them.
You can't hit them.
Your ranged fire is directed back at you.
Your weapons don't slow a lightsaber and your armor is ineffective.
They can see the future and sometimes sense you from across the galaxy! Let alone in threat range.
They use lightsabers because ranged attacks are never going to hit one another in normal circumstances.
Emperor Palpatine, if grappled by a non-Jedi, would have fried them instantly. His lightning cooked and killed Darth Vader in full armor, who had the Force to sublimate the power.
The finest soldier in the galaxy, the basis of all the clones, fast enough that he could actually kill a junior Jedi, was disposed of in one hit by Mace Windu without managing to land a shot.
The TK and lightning stuff is nothing. The power of the Jedi has always been on the divination side of things.
==Aelryinth