Eidolon infinite damage loop


Rules Questions


Take an eidolon with a pair of claws, the Grab (claw) evolution, and the Rake evolution and you have an infinite damage loop.

When a normal claw attack hits there is a free grapple check from the Grab evolution. If that succeeds then you get the 2 claw attacks from the Rake evolution. Since these are claws they also have grab and can thus make a grapple check to initiate Rake yet again. Lather, rinse, repeat until either the foe is a shredded pile of meat or you fail to grapple with both Rake attacks.

Someone please help me stop this insanity.


Rake does not trigger grab.


Not to sound like a dingle... but read the rules on rake.

Quote:
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

You don't get the rake attack until you start the turn grappling, not right after grapple.

I disagree with Umbral Reaver; you could apply the grab evolution to the rake (strict reading could mean you need to take it twice, but still), it just wouldn't be useful unless your DM rules you can release (which is a free action) after starting the rake, but before finishing it, to re-grapple, which may be a cheesy/cool combo if you got constrict.


LoneKnave wrote:
I disagree with Umbral Reaver; you could apply the grab evolution to the rake (strict reading could mean you need to take it twice, but still), it just wouldn't be useful unless your DM rules you can release (which is a free action) after starting the rake, but before finishing it, to re-grapple, which may be a cheesy/cool combo if you got constrict.

Oh, that makes sense.


Rake evolution is not the same as Rake monster ability.

Rake evolution:
The eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make two rake attacks against foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon can make these additional attacks each time it succeeds at a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon's maximum. Requirements: Summoner level 4th, quadruped base form.


LoneKnave wrote:

Not to sound like a dingle... but read the rules on rake.

Quote:
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

You don't get the rake attack until you start the turn grappling, not right after grapple.

I disagree with Umbral Reaver; you could apply the grab evolution to the rake (strict reading could mean you need to take it twice, but still), it just wouldn't be useful unless your DM rules you can release (which is a free action) after starting the rake, but before finishing it, to re-grapple, which may be a cheesy/cool combo if you got constrict.

Eidolon Rake is specifically different than UMR rake.

Eidolon Rake wrote:
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.

The only difference for Unchained is that it mysteriously removes the quadruped restriction.

To the OP, Rake attacks, though they use Claw statistics, are not Claw attacks, so they should not get to attempt Grabs.

The real problem is Final Embrace, which fails to specify which/how many attacks gain Grab (however it's really broken to let Rake qualify)


Archaeik wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:

Not to sound like a dingle... but read the rules on rake.

Quote:
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

You don't get the rake attack until you start the turn grappling, not right after grapple.

I disagree with Umbral Reaver; you could apply the grab evolution to the rake (strict reading could mean you need to take it twice, but still), it just wouldn't be useful unless your DM rules you can release (which is a free action) after starting the rake, but before finishing it, to re-grapple, which may be a cheesy/cool combo if you got constrict.

Eidolon Rake is specifically different than UMR rake.

Eidolon Rake wrote:
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.

The only difference for Unchained is that it mysteriously removes the quadruped restriction.

To the OP, Rake attacks, though they use Claw statistics, are not Claw attacks, so they should not get to attempt Grabs.

The real problem is Final Embrace, which fails to specify which/how many attacks gain Grab (however it's really broken to let Rake qualify)

Except that the Rake attacks are specifically called out as claws.


"growing claws" can be seen as fluff. The crunch clearly delineates them as "rake attacks".

It's debatable whether this means feats and abilities that apply to claws also don't work in every case, but Grab is quite clear that it only applies to certain types of attacks (you pick one) and Rake is not on that list.


They are rake attacks. They follow the rake attack rules. The text is a (incomplete) reminder, not something to overwrite the general rules. At least in my reading. It'd be pretty bonkers if it overwrote those, as this'd mean yet another 2 attacks on every grab-release (on top of the 2 you had from grabbing and constrict).


LoneKnave wrote:
They are rake attacks. They follow the rake attack rules. The text is a (incomplete) reminder, not something to overwrite the general rules. At least in my reading. It'd be pretty bonkers if it overwrote those, as this'd mean yet another 2 attacks on every grab-release (on top of the 2 you had from grabbing and constrict).

Specific overrides general. Eidolon rake functions exactly how it sounds, every successful grapple check. It does not use UMR rake at all.

Constrict is restricted to serpentine in the APG, so there's less issue there than with Unchained.


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That's an easy to solve issue.

I summon the power of DM.
Power word: No.


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Not for PFS.

Besides, that is a complete cop out for a rules discussion.


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thorin001 wrote:

Take an eidolon with a pair of claws, the Grab (claw) evolution, and the Rake evolution and you have an infinite damage loop.

When a normal claw attack hits there is a free grapple check from the Grab evolution. If that succeeds then you get the 2 claw attacks from the Rake evolution. Since these are claws they also have grab and can thus make a grapple check to initiate Rake yet again. Lather, rinse, repeat until either the foe is a shredded pile of meat or you fail to grapple with both Rake attacks.

Someone please help me stop this insanity.

I would posit that any interpretation that allows for infinite attacks is an incorrect interpretation of the rules.

Obviously the game designers do not want an 'infinity loop' in their RPG. This is not a computer program, it is a game where the human mind is supposed to be involved at all times.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
thorin001 wrote:

Not for PFS.

Besides, that is a complete cop out for a rules discussion.

rule 0, overrides all rules, so not really.

also: rake attacks are not claw attacks even if done with claws and thus do not have the grab ability applied to them.

Grab wrote:


An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller. Eidolons with this evolution receive a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple.


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Scythia wrote:

That's an easy to solve issue.

I summon the power of DM.
Power word: No.

I can't believe that after 37 years of playing RPG's, I've never heard "Power Word: No" before.

I'll definitely be using that at some point in the future.

Grand Lodge

Rake is a seperate attack type from claw. You would need to apply grab twice, and you can only take it once, and rake is not a valid target for the grab evolution.

And yes thorin, even in PFS GMs can use their judgement on corner cases.

There is also the question of whether rake can be used more than once per round. Most natural attacks are limited to once per round. The eidolon gains access to these attacks by grappling, it doesn't anywhere get the power to use them more than once per full attack action.

FAQ on can an eidolon use rake more than once per turn. Please FAQ


thorin001 wrote:

Not for PFS.

Besides, that is a complete cop out for a rules discussion.

Considering a lot of rules specifically say that the GM has discretion as to what is and isn't allowed, it's as much of a cop out as an actual rules answer.

That being said, I'm sure that once a creature is grappled, you can't re-grapple it unless you release the grapple (though you can make subsequent checks in the same round to pin and then tie up), and most creatures with rake attacks aren't smart enough (read: have an advanced enough instinct) to know what grapple cheese is.

Dark Archive

Saldiven wrote:
Scythia wrote:

That's an easy to solve issue.

I summon the power of DM.
Power word: No.

I can't believe that after 37 years of playing RPG's, I've never heard "Power Word: No" before.

I'll definitely be using that at some point in the future.

i have to agree. thats goin right next to honey nut feelios

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
thorin001 wrote:

Not for PFS.

Besides, that is a complete cop out for a rules discussion.

Considering a lot of rules specifically say that the GM has discretion as to what is and isn't allowed, it's as much of a cop out as an actual rules answer.

That being said, I'm sure that once a creature is grappled, you can't re-grapple it unless you release the grapple (though you can make subsequent checks in the same round to pin and then tie up), and most creatures with rake attacks aren't smart enough (read: have an advanced enough instinct) to know what grapple cheese is.

That's also a good point. If the eidolon drops them so that it can regrab with the rake, it is no longer grappling them and loses the rake.

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