Hide in Plain Sight - the mega thread to figure out how it works


Rules Questions

51 to 58 of 58 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
EVEN WITH BLINDSENSE!

Ok, while they may be hidden from view anyone with blindsense or blindsight will know what square they are in.

Lou Diamond wrote:

IPS from Legendary Rogues that is the cleanest version of HIPS that I have seen.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A rogue with this talent is a master of
disappearance. She can use the Stealth skill to hide even while
being observed. The rogue must have a feat or skill specialty that
grants a bonus on Stealth checks and be at least 12th level before
selecting this talent.

Actually this is probably the one I kept thinking existed but couldn't find it. This one as written requires cover or concealment. So if by clean you mean unambiguously allows you to poof, we don't agree.

"Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment."

I don't see how this is ambiguous, no where does it say you require cover, and it provides concealment. the only place it is mentioned is in breaking stealth, and it starts with modifier, against most creatures, and the skill itself provides concealment, what would be the point if you already had concealment?

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
EVEN WITH BLINDSENSE!

Ok, while they may be hidden from view anyone with blindsense or blindsight will know what square they are in.

Unless they have dampen presence.


Byakko wrote:
I have been taking for granted that cover/concealment is required, but maybe it isn't. It *IS* heavily implied, but perhaps the rules simply assume you need it in order to break observation, and thus things are often worded around that.

OK, I think we can take for granted that without HiPS (or other similar abilities), the Stealth skill requires you to do something to not be observed. Nobody just stands there and rolls a Stealth check while everybody is watching him; not without some magic or a HiPS-like ability to make it possible.

Good so far?

Now I refer you to this post I made higher up in this thread:

So to actually say that Andy (the normal guy with no special abilities; just some ranks in Stealth) must be unobserved in order to make a Stealth check, but he has to make a Stealth check to be unobserved, is a paradox - if he fails that Stealth check then he was never allowed to roll it in the first place.

To avoid that paradox, we just about have to ignore those other, non-visual, senses because we don't have actual rules to govern when we are or aren't observed by them.

The only sense that has concrete rules to determine whether someone is "observed" or not is vision. The rules are the Cover and Concealment rules in the combat chapter. Those are the only "observation" rules applied to the only sensory method (vision) that exist outside of rolling a paradoxical Stealth check.

In other words, we need a combat rule that says "Draw a line from the listener's square to the target square - if that line pases through a sound-proof barrier then the target has SoundCover vs. that listener".

If we had that rule, then we could apply it to the Stealth rules by saying "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight or sound), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment and also finding SoundCover allows you to use Stealth."

Currently we cannot do that (else paradox) so currently we can really only use vision (Cover or Concealment) as a determiner for using Stealth.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
EVEN WITH BLINDSENSE!

Ok, while they may be hidden from view anyone with blindsense or blindsight will know what square they are in.

Unless they have dampen presence.

yeah, i forgot about that, so i guess RAI is that it doesn't apply to blindsense.

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
EVEN WITH BLINDSENSE!

Ok, while they may be hidden from view anyone with blindsense or blindsight will know what square they are in.

Unless they have dampen presence.

yeah, i forgot about that, so i guess RAI is that it doesn't apply to blindsense.

Which is really annoying, since freaking True Sight can't beat stealth, but Blindsense can. I blame Smaug and Bilbo. Who is to say that Bilbo didn't roll a one on Steath and Smaug a 20 on perception?


I wouldn't apply it to Blindsense personally.

Lou Diamond wrote:
Those of you who are saying that you have to have cover or concealment to use HIPS are inferring something in HIPS that is not there.

It's not inferring something about HiPS that's not there. It's the interaction of HiPS with the established Stealth rules. Hide in Plain Sight only states that you can "use Stealth even while observed", with certain conditions under which you can use HiPS (favored terrain, near dim light, etc.). Stealth, however, has a lot of rules about when you can be hidden: cover/concealment is only one aspect of that.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Bandw2 wrote:
I don't see how this is ambiguous

If you don't have something to hide behind (cover) or hide inside (concealment) you can't hide, period.

If you move out of cover or concealment you cease to be hidden.

If you have a special ability like HiPS that allows you to hide when others can't (like if within 10 ft of dim light) then you may hide when normally you would never be able to hide.

Imbicatus wrote:
Unless they have dampen presence.

+1


Bandw2 wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
EVEN WITH BLINDSENSE!

Ok, while they may be hidden from view anyone with blindsense or blindsight will know what square they are in.

Unless they have dampen presence.

yeah, i forgot about that, so i guess RAI is that it doesn't apply to blindsense.

It's right there in RAW that it doesn't apply

Stealth wrote:
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.

51 to 58 of 58 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Hide in Plain Sight - the mega thread to figure out how it works All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.