Empowering the Oracle


Homebrew and House Rules

Silver Crusade

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Hey all, I personally feel that the oracle is kind of weak... Compare the oracle to a shaman with the speaker for the past archetype, for example, and it just doesn't get there... I've thought of the following adjustments to make the Oracle more interesting. What do you think?

Oracle: Skillpoints at each level changes to 6 + int modifier.
Epiphany: At level 5, 9, 13, and 17, the Oracle receives an epiphany. The Oracle must select one of the following list of epiphanies. Each epiphany may be taken multiple times.
Divine teachings: The oracle receives a vision or a series of visions that show her the true nature of how things work. The oracle receives Skill Focus in any skill that’s either on the oracle class skill list, or on the list of additional class skills of the oracle’s chosen revelation.
Soul Searching: The oracle encounters figments of her subconscious self in her dreams, and those figments give her challenges to overcome. Once overcome, the internal challenges make the oracle more aware and resilient to external hardships. She receives +1 to any saving throw and +1 to another saving throw.
Overcoming Mortality: The Oracle gets infused with a part of the divine power that is in her blood. She receives a +1 ability increase to an ability score of her choice. This may not be the same ability score that was most recently increased due to the ability increases gained at every four character levels.
Sacred Vessel: The oracle becomes more at one with her divine magic and receives boons by letting her power flow through her. Whenever she casts a divine spell, she receives fast healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to the spell level of the spell cast. Rounds from multiple spells do not add up, but overlap. If this epiphany is taken more than once, the fast healing increases by 1 for each time it is taken.


The problem isn't the Oracle is weak, by no means is the Oracle weak. The problem is they did something incredibly dumb when they created the Shaman, and strapped a rocket booster to a chassis that didn't need it.


Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
The problem isn't the Oracle is weak, by no means is the Oracle weak. The problem is they did something incredibly dumb when they created the Shaman, and strapped a rocket booster to a chassis that didn't need it.

+100....

The Shaman is a truly horrendous class.... not only has it screwed up the entire structure of divine classes AND the Witch but its a class that had no justification in the first place.... the Druid already having Shaman archetypes!

In all my D20 days... Ive never seen a more farcical and unnecessary class than the Shaman

Pure stupidity on behalf of Paizo

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You're comparing the oracle with the shaman? That's not fair. The shaman basically has most of the oracle, cleric, and witch's strengths with almost none of their weaknesses. It's a bloated, powerful class.

I really don't like your suggestion, either. It just throws more power towards the oracle in a lazily designed way. 6+Int should be reserved for skill-focused classes. 9-level spellcasters typically receive lack of skills as a drawback for the power of casting 9th level spells.


Viondar wrote:

Hey all, I personally feel that the oracle is kind of weak... Compare the oracle to a shaman with the speaker for the past archetype, for example, and it just doesn't get there... I've thought of the following adjustments to make the Oracle more interesting. What do you think?

Oracle: Skillpoints at each level changes to 6 + int modifier.
Epiphany: At level 5, 9, 13, and 17, the Oracle receives an epiphany. The Oracle must select one of the following list of epiphanies. Each epiphany may be taken multiple times.
Divine teachings: The oracle receives a vision or a series of visions that show her the true nature of how things work. The oracle receives Skill Focus in any skill that’s either on the oracle class skill list, or on the list of additional class skills of the oracle’s chosen revelation.
Soul Searching: The oracle encounters figments of her subconscious self in her dreams, and those figments give her challenges to overcome. Once overcome, the internal challenges make the oracle more aware and resilient to external hardships. She receives +1 to any saving throw and +1 to another saving throw.
Overcoming Mortality: The Oracle gets infused with a part of the divine power that is in her blood. She receives a +1 ability increase to an ability score of her choice. This may not be the same ability score that was most recently increased due to the ability increases gained at every four character levels.
Sacred Vessel: The oracle becomes more at one with her divine magic and receives boons by letting her power flow through her. Whenever she casts a divine spell, she receives fast healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to the spell level of the spell cast. Rounds from multiple spells do not add up, but overlap. If this epiphany is taken more than once, the fast healing increases by 1 for each time it is taken.

Ps.... NO, NO and NO

The Cleric and to a lesser extent the Druid (traditional D&D thinking being that a Druid is a Cleric archetype) should be the 2 benchmarks around which ALL other divine classes are structured.... in a similar way to how the Fighter should function for all martial classes.

Sadly Paizo thinks differently....


Silver Surfer wrote:
Viondar wrote:

Hey all, I personally feel that the oracle is kind of weak... Compare the oracle to a shaman with the speaker for the past archetype, for example, and it just doesn't get there... I've thought of the following adjustments to make the Oracle more interesting. What do you think?

Oracle: Skillpoints at each level changes to 6 + int modifier.
Epiphany: At level 5, 9, 13, and 17, the Oracle receives an epiphany. The Oracle must select one of the following list of epiphanies. Each epiphany may be taken multiple times.
Divine teachings: The oracle receives a vision or a series of visions that show her the true nature of how things work. The oracle receives Skill Focus in any skill that’s either on the oracle class skill list, or on the list of additional class skills of the oracle’s chosen revelation.
Soul Searching: The oracle encounters figments of her subconscious self in her dreams, and those figments give her challenges to overcome. Once overcome, the internal challenges make the oracle more aware and resilient to external hardships. She receives +1 to any saving throw and +1 to another saving throw.
Overcoming Mortality: The Oracle gets infused with a part of the divine power that is in her blood. She receives a +1 ability increase to an ability score of her choice. This may not be the same ability score that was most recently increased due to the ability increases gained at every four character levels.
Sacred Vessel: The oracle becomes more at one with her divine magic and receives boons by letting her power flow through her. Whenever she casts a divine spell, she receives fast healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to the spell level of the spell cast. Rounds from multiple spells do not add up, but overlap. If this epiphany is taken more than once, the fast healing increases by 1 for each time it is taken.

Ps.... NO, NO and NO

The Cleric and to a lesser extent the Druid (traditional D&D thinking being that a Druid is a Cleric archetype) should be the 2 benchmarks...

I could not disagree more. The cleric should only be used as an example of how not to build classes. Despite having the power of 9lv divine casting, it is (in my opinion) easily the most boring class in the game. Channel energy and domains that only offer two abilities over 20 levels makes for a completely uninteresting (to me) character.


You misunderstand my meaning..... I dont mean in terms of design... I completely agree that the Cleric is very poorly designed. I mean in terms of power curve. The Cleric has (or maybe should?!?!) quite literally the power of gods flowing through him..... that should be the benchmark for all other divine classes.... whereas for the Shaman it seems like just the starting point.... LOL!!!

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The cleric is one of the most powerful classes in the game, but also one of the most boring as well. It's not a good to model your class off of the cleric.


Silver Surfer wrote:
You misunderstand my meaning..... I dont mean in terms of design... I completely agree that the Cleric is very poorly designed. I mean in terms of power curve. The Cleric has (or maybe should?!?!) quite literally the power of gods flowing through him..... that should be the benchmark for all other divine classes.... whereas for the Shaman it seems like just the starting point.... LOL!!!

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Personally, I look at the Oracle as a benchmark of what I think is good for a divine caster. Then again I'm also biased in preferring spontaneous casting.

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I think the oracle is better designed than the cleric. The cleric simply has way too much going for them whereas the oracle has some real drawbacks, such as having a spell list not that great for spontaneous casting.


Just fix the spellcasting progression [and give one additional spell known at the new earlier level in addition to the current chart], eliminate the Spontaneous Casters Are Screwed With Metamagic rules and do the same for Sorcerers.

Problem solved.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
eliminate the Spontaneous Casters Are Screwed With Metamagic rules and do the same for Sorcerers.

I do this in my games, although I leave the slower progression. Spontaneous casters are the metamasters in my games.


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Divine Protection was the step too far for Oracles IMO....it pushed it into OP territory. And before you say it, yes I am aware that a Cleric could take it but since CHA is only useful for channeling and channeling is complete and utter %&*£$ AND Clerics are feat starved.... I dont see it as a viable investment.

But at least the mechanical concept of the Oracle is sound which is not the case for the Shaman. Like I said previously, its fundamentally flawed due to the presence of Druid archetypes!!

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Sometimes I wish I could mandate that any discussion of divine classes should never speak of Divine Protection. The better we pretend that feat never existed, the better.


I've got to say...if there is ever a total divorce of Pathfinder from it's 3.5 dungeons and dragons roots; I'd place this as a suggest for Oracle and Cleric.

Make the Cleric Spontaneous, and the Oracle prepared.

My reason for this is, the Oracle is supposed to draw their power from a wide range of divine sources, rather then the focus on a singular deity. The Cleric is the opposite, getting power from just one, typically. My whole notion is really just swapping names and lore of the classes with eachother.

I would imagine that the Goddess of Fire, Light, Good, Healing and Glory (Sarenrae), would be unlikely, or unable to grant her clerics the Create Water Orison. As it stands however, she can. And when traveling, all clerics tend to get asked to prepare it. As a player, if you reject their request, but it's possible for you, that makes you a jerk (According to my past experiences with some demanding party members...)

If clerics were spontaneous, they could have the whole suit of their god readily available (their choice of learned spells), and never have to say; Sorry I can't call on the goddess' holy fire anymore; I only asked for 2 today. (Feels really artificial)

As for Oracle, they could prepare their spells to represent the forces of the universe that they are communing with, or siphoning power from today, and use it in limited concentration.

Just my thoughts.


Ps: My Life Oracle didn't need empowering; just using my positive energy form made me a great frontline, healing myself as a move action, and being immune to precision damage temporarily.

Add that to my selective channel, buff spells, and the fire spells I gained from my curse, and archetype, and I was a great character.

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Conall O'Kanis wrote:

I've got to say...if there is ever a total divorce of Pathfinder from it's 3.5 dungeons and dragons roots; I'd place this as a suggest for Oracle and Cleric.

Make the Cleric Spontaneous, and the Oracle prepared.

That doesn't make sense to me from both a game design and thematic standpoint.


Silver Surfer wrote:
Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
The problem isn't the Oracle is weak, by no means is the Oracle weak. The problem is they did something incredibly dumb when they created the Shaman, and strapped a rocket booster to a chassis that didn't need it.

+100....

The Shaman is a truly horrendous class.... not only has it screwed up the entire structure of divine classes AND the Witch but its a class that had no justification in the first place.... the Druid already having Shaman archetypes!

In all my D20 days... Ive never seen a more farcical and unnecessary class than the Shaman

Pure stupidity on behalf of Paizo

The Arcanist is in the SAME BOOK, man. And the Hunter.

The shaman at least plays completely differently from both the Druid and its parent classes and the spirit system is something new and interesting. The Arcanist and the Hunter were just mashing together two classes that were too similar already.

Back on topic, the Oracle probably doesn't need to be empowered. It's one of the classes that's got the most options for optimization. You can't do some of the things the Cleric uses the spell list for the same way, but I kinda prefer that; it helps Oracle and Cleric feel a lot more distinct from each other than the Sorcerer and the Wizard do.


Blackwaltzomega wrote:


The Arcanist is in the SAME BOOK, man. And the Hunter.

The shaman at least plays completely differently from both the Druid and its parent classes and the spirit system is something new and interesting. The Arcanist and the Hunter were just mashing together two classes that were too similar already.

Yes I agree the Arcanist is another highly dubious class but I disagree massively with the Shaman.... another reason why its a complete mess is that its parent classes are wrong.

It should be Druid and Witch.... as I keep saying there were already long standing Druid Shaman archetypes.... if that isnt proof I dont know what is!


Silver Surfer wrote:
Blackwaltzomega wrote:


The Arcanist is in the SAME BOOK, man. And the Hunter.

The shaman at least plays completely differently from both the Druid and its parent classes and the spirit system is something new and interesting. The Arcanist and the Hunter were just mashing together two classes that were too similar already.

Yes I agree the Arcanist is another highly dubious class but I disagree massively with the Shaman.... another reason why its a complete mess is that its parent classes are wrong.

It should be Druid and Witch.... as I keep saying there were already long standing Druid Shaman archetypes.... if that isnt proof I dont know what is!

?

The shaman class is a mechanical combination of oracle and witch. Given a real world name that Paizo thought was most appropriate. I don't understand what does druid have to do with this?


I think the only problem Oracle really has is the curses and there are already good 3PP Curses.

I think Curses should bring a bold flavour to Oracle but not make the class feel hobbled. Things that relate to RP and give an interesting spin. No other class has to deal with such overt and extreme penalties, at most they simply lack as great a bonuses in some areas.

Curses should work more like Superman's Kryptonite, a rare and unusual foil.

Though, I think Oracle is good for a dip at higher levels. If you'd asked me a few months about about dipping I'd scoff at the idea but at higher levels when you're trying to consider what's best to do with everything oracle can unlock it adds up to greater than the sum of its part with other classes.

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Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Curses should work more like Superman's Kryptonite, a rare and unusual foil.

I believe in the opposite. I believe a curse should influence how you play the character. The makes the class more interesting and adds roleplay opportunity. I think the curse class feature is just fine as is. The fact that the player chooses their curse makes the mechanic not so hobbling or unfun. Some of the curses that have very little mechanical effect are perfect for a player who isn't interested in the feature.

Dark Archive

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Silver Surfer wrote:

Ps.... NO, NO and NO

The Cleric and to a lesser extent the Druid (traditional D&D thinking being that a Druid is a Cleric archetype) should be the 2 benchmarks around which ALL other divine classes are structured.... in a similar way to how the Fighter should function for all martial classes.

Sadly Paizo thinks differently....

EVERYBODY with any sense thinks differently.

Every class should be balanced around the Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor and Warpriest. They're the effective all-rounders that every other class should be compared to, NOT the hugely powerful Cleric and Druid or the hilariously inept Fighter.


Yeah, there's no real problem with the Oracle. The problem is that you're comparing it to the Shaman, which is a really poorly thought out class. Shaman takes Witch (an already powerful class) and the Oracle (an already powerful class), takes some of the most noteworthy features from both, and then combines them into one super-customizable chassis. There was literally no way that it was going to turn out well. Hell, what's really sad is that the Oracle can pick up spirits anyways with one archetype. It's just a failed idea all around, in my mind.


Seranov wrote:


EVERYBODY with any sense thinks differently.

Every class should be balanced around the Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor and Warpriest. They're the effective all-rounders that every other class should be compared to, NOT the hugely powerful Cleric and Druid or the hilariously inept Fighter.

Says you....

The classes you named are indeed well balanced but they are generalists and so by default are easier to "balance" since that is their role.

9th level casters should be powerful but balancing them is trickier. When discussing casters they have to be compared with other casters.

I do definitely think the armouring of 9th level casters should have been stripped back to reflect their specialism.


mourge40k wrote:
Yeah, there's no real problem with the Oracle. The problem is that you're comparing it to the Shaman, which is a really poorly thought out class. Shaman takes Witch (an already powerful class) and the Oracle (an already powerful class), takes some of the most noteworthy features from both, and then combines them into one super-customizable chassis. There was literally no way that it was going to turn out well. Hell, what's really sad is that the Oracle can pick up spirits anyways with one archetype. It's just a failed idea all around, in my mind.

+1.... a complete train wreck of a class.... totally unnecessary... FFS there were already 11 Druidic shaman archetypes!!


Add appropriate bonuses to each mystery.
The 2 extra skill points to each level can only be used for skills granted by mysteries.

At 5th level one skill focus called divine teaching.
At 9th level one soul searching +1 to appropriate save.
At 13th level extra ability score increase appropriate to the mystery.
At 17th level self heals 1 for every level of divination spell cast. If any or all points left over, can heal someone or thing by touch. Leftover healing points reset if another divination spell is cast.

This is a compromise. You can use the OP's method, my method, or neither's method. I intentionally linked the self healing to divination spells because that's what the class title suggests.


The fact that various druid archetypes just happened to be named "shaman" has no relevance whatsoever to the actual shaman class' design. It's not a well designed class, but it has nothing to do with the druid archetypes. Just like the brawler fighter archetype has nothing to do with the brawler class.

Silver Crusade

Thanks everyone for replying.

Thanks Goth Guru in particular for making a constructive comment.

What I see here are a lot of people who think the Shaman is too powerful. Well, you might be right. But there are many powerful classes.

Alchemist (focus on dex & int and you're the king with a s~##load of skillpoints, great AC, wonderful damage with bombs, and great flexibility because you can make extracts later in the day in a minute)
Arcanist (insane flexibility)
Bloodrager (insane damage)
Investigator (a skill king with extracts and great damage to attack/damage)
Paladin (Insane durability, with their swift self-healing)
Skald (did you ever notice that there is no maximum range nor maximum number of affected to the effect of the raging song?)
Slayer (seething hatred, anyone?)
Swashbuckler (+1 damage per level, permanent)

We could all yammer about all those insanely powerful classes (you're free to ban them), or we could bring the few that are left behind on par.

Personally I believe in letting the players have their power. They have one character, and it's all they have in the game. Diversity in their abilities is great.

I do recognise that my choices could lead to OP characters. I realise, for example, that if someone takes the fast healing five times, it is far too extreme. But hey, that's why I wanted feedback :)

I'm going to open another thread to ask you people which classes you're banning, because I begin to have the feeling you're banning a lot ;)

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You're only looking at the strengths of those classes, not their weaknesses. The strength of those classes is not evidence against the power of the shaman. The shaman is too powerful because they inherit the strengths of the cleric, oracle, and witch, but possess almost none of their weaknesses. While some diversity of power is good, giving too many strengths to a class with few weaknesses is detrimental to a game all about teamwork.


Castilonium wrote:
The fact that various druid archetypes just happened to be named "shaman" has no relevance whatsoever to the actual shaman class' design. It's not a well designed class, but it has nothing to do with the druid archetypes. Just like the brawler fighter archetype has nothing to do with the brawler class.

Dont be ridiculous its 100% relevant. The fact that the shaman archetype is druidic proves emphatically that the base concept is (and should have been) druidic in function and nature..... whereas the ACG Shaman is a hellish OP amalgamation of cleric, oracle and witch.

At the barest minimum the parent classes should have been druid and witch and in all sensibility really should have been just a new druid archetype with a new name.

It was unnecessary and it is a farce.... the worst designed and thought out class I've seen for years.

Silver Crusade

What weakness does a paladin have? Perhaps a lake, because he will sink in armour. But no more.

What weakness does an Alchemist have? A low will save. Nothing more.

What weakness does a slayer (especially a stygian stalker) have? A low will save. Nothing more

And a shaman has a low fortitude and reflex.

The rest is just tweaking. A shaman, like the cleric and the druid, needs both wis and cha, while none of those two improve his martial capabilities. That could be seen as a weakness. Personally, I think the hexes have their uses, and they're nicely flavoured, but they're not overly powerful. Actually, I think the shaman, in power, is quite on par with the cleric, the druid, and the warpriest.

The poor oracle, though, gets all his cool things from the one mystery, so has hardly any flexibility. And on top of that gets only six revelations from that one mystery. It is even bad enough that his bonus spells (simply a given for the cleric and others) are expressly noted in the table under 'special'. The only consolation the oracle has, is his curse. Whoopdiedoo... Of course, some builds, like the above life oracle, will work fine. But the class is, in my opinion, just too weak.

Or am I still missing stuff, here?


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Oh boy, are you missing a lot.

The Paladin is strong against Evil things. Note the capital 'E' there. Against anything not Evil, he's a Fighter with better saves.

The Alchemist has a highly limited combat feature, small list of spells, and very few per day. He must pace himself.

The others have their weaknesses, but the Shaman? Oh, NO, he has a low Fort and Reflex save! Good thing he has access to no less than THREE of the most powerfully defensive spell lists in the game, and depending on his Spirit he's chosen for the day, as many as FOUR spell lists, now including the Wizard list!

Hell yes I'd take a low Fort and Reflex save for that. His weakness is effectively nonexistent.

Silver Crusade

I understand your thinking in the power of the shaman. If there's time to buff up and select the right spells in advance, the shaman can become very strong.

I do, however, think that paladin and alchemist are stronger than you make them appear. The paladin's smite is a nice extra against Evil , but his true power lies in his saves, his healing, his immunities, and his horse/weapon. And radiant charge to finish off big opponents. The alchemist might need to pace himself a little, but is an extremely flexible adventurer, with many skills (int is primary for damage and spells, plus four), great bomb options, and awesome mutagen. An alchemist, level 1, with armor extract, shield extract, and a dex mutagen gets +12 to AC without sucking at attacks. What do you mean weak combat skills?

All this, though. Is not really the point. The point is: How is the oracle not underpowered compared to these classes (leave the shaman out, if you must). Because if I'm missing things and the oracle is actually stronger than I thought, I won't need to buff it in my homebrew rules.

Dark Archive

The Oracle stomps all over Paladins, Alchemists, etc. It's a T2 class that is hilariously versatile and effective, with options that let it punch well above its own weight. It's full of fun flavor, it has access to a solid spell list, the individual mysteries are powerful and interesting.

The Oracle isn't underpowered compared to anyone, least of all the Paladin or Alchemist. He has far more options available to him than any T3 or lower class ever will, and has been consistently being buffed and supported by Paizo (hi Divine Protection, Lunar Mystery, Spirit Guide archetype, etc.)

Silver Crusade

You're stating what I want to hear, without really saying why I shouldn't worry about just 6 revelations in 20 levels... But, I'll try to follow you. Could you tell me what all this T2 and T3 stuff means. Because I know yo're not talking about the Terminator films...

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Yeah, you're ignoring a heckalot.

The paladin lacks bonus feats, a major drawback for a full BAB character (compare to the ranger or the bloodrager). Their primary damage ability has a very limited use and is ineffective against non-evil creatures. They also need Charisma for several of their class features. While not too much of a burden by itself, this combined with lack of feats limits their build options to mostly high-armored melee.

The alchemist's extracts are gimped compared to normal spellcasting. In addition to only having 6 levels, the spell list is limited, they don't work on allies (unless you spend a talent), and don't receive many of the benefits of normal spellcasting. These are pretty large drawbacks compared to other gish classes like the magus and inquisitor. Extracts only saving grace is that they can be prepared in 1 minute, making them almost like spontaneous casting when out of combat. And while bombs are powerful, they have limited uses per day and risk harming the alchemist's allies unless he spends a talent on it.

The slayer is basically a ranger that trades spellcasting, animal companions, and other fancy stuff for talents, sneak attack and an ability that's more reliable than favored enemy but isn't as effective. For a 6+Int class, they don't have many abilities that augment their skill checks. In many ways, they suffer the same problems as the fighter.

The oracle is not only a spontaneous caster (generally not as good as prepared casting), but also has a terrible spell list for spontaneous casting. In return, they get mysteries, which are actually really awesome because you can make a lot of different characters with the oracle.

Also, witch hexes are really powerful because they're pseudo-at-will abilities fairly strong in of themselves. The witch makes sacrifices to gain this power, such as having a much inferior spell list than other 9-level spellcasters and having a massive achilles heel. The shaman can use all basic hexes AND have an increased list of ones available AND can temporarily learn hexes they don't have access to.

It's all about trade offs. Classes make trade offs for their power. The shaman gains a lot of power and makes almost no trade off compared to her peers.


Actually the Shaman does make one enormous sacrifice..... it doesnt get shield proficiency ;))

Silver Crusade

alright.

Everyone, thanks for making theorectical what most people learn through practice. I'm not a very good practical learner, and sometimes need a scope spelled out for me. You people have done that, and I'm grateful. With the alchemist, for example, my mind simply attributes precise bombing and infusion as automatic early choices, and I forget to think without them.

You all have changed my perception on the shaman. Where I first saw it as just another approach, I now begin to see the problems with the class.

My conclusion is that for now I'll go with Goth Guru's advice. Not because I still think the Oracle is weak, but because Shaman is still an option, and I would like the Oracle to keep up a little more.

Once again, thank you all for contributing :)

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