Surprise brace! Using sneak attacks on a brace attack?


Rules Questions


Scenario: my thugs have started a bar fight. I'm waiting out side the tavern drink my juice and holding my reach weapon. As the guards run up to the tavern they do not perceive me as a threat. They are running so they do not have a Dex Bonus, meaning I can sneak attack them. They are not "charging" me, but standing next to the door they are running right at me. Can I at the last second brace my polearm? They have not declared a charge, but it is the same motion.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

No.

Point #1 : Brace requires a readied action. (no 'bracing at the last second')

Point #2 : Brace has no effect against a target that is not charging.


Charging is moving at double speed and attacking. Running is moving at quadruple speed. If he attacks or not is irrelevant with reach because I hit with my attack before he can attack me. Another player suggested that it should do x4 damage because the are moving even faster.


And with a held action can't I take a readied action right before they get there?


Overthinker wrote:
And with a held action can't I take a readied action right before they get there?

You cannot interrupt their action with a delay.

You can choose an initiative before theirs as your delay trigger, but they will know you've used Brace.

Delay wrote:

By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what's going to happen. You also can't interrupt anyone else's action (as you can with a readied action).

Initiative Consequences of Delaying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don't get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).

If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Grand Lodge

Ready and brace: you are bracing the spear when you ready.

If you were invisible, and someone was charging past you, I would let you sneak attack with your braced weapon. But the moment you ready (and are not invisible) you are revealing yourself as a combatant.


tough crowd.
not a delay as there has been no initiatives yet. i can see the guards from a mile away giving me lots of time to ready an action to "when the guards get within ten feet of the door: take a 5 foot step to block their path and set my pole." one then runs into my braced pole at full speed. i then also get an aoa. as they are running they are denied their dex, plus they may count as flat footed as i am attacking before they have entered combat and they were "unaware" of me as a combatant. either one of these situations should grant me sneak attack. classic amush

also can i ready an action to: use a readied action to set a brace weapon?


If they do not perceive you as a threat I would let you gain surprise, but some sort of opposed roll would be necessary for them to fail to perceive you as a threat and I would probably give them some bonuses since they are about to run (or rather move see below) past someone on the periphery of active combat who while is apparently not involved is certainly holding a weapon. They are guards, not morons. Running past someone obviously holding a weapon who might turn out to be hostile is not a good way to get back to the barracks alive and intact and tends to lean towards a short career with a sudden violent ending.

If you gain surprise you could ready to brace against a charge. But I'd either warn you at that point that trained guardsmen are probably not going to continue to Run directly into a fight and would need a straight, unobstructed path to actually charge anyone in the interior. In other words the guardsmen are probably not going to be Running as they move past you and unless they can see someone in a direct, unobstructed path who is obviously in combat, charging isn't going to be occurring either. Even if they can see someone I don't think it is likely any guardsmen I'd be controlling as GM would simply charge the first individual in combat they can see without a very good reason ... more likely they'd enter while looking over the scene and demanding for everyone to cease and desist etc.. But that is obviously up to your GM not me.

Edit:And yes you can ready to brace against a charge.

CRB wrote:
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

Liberty's Edge

I don't agree with the naysayers.

A charge has two components: Moving for up to double your speed and an attack after the move.

I think a reasonable GM would allow a brace attack if an opponent was moving at triple or quadruple move, but the GM may need to be creative with the checks (such as a bluff check to feign disinterest in the thugs, maybe with a -2 to -5 for having a reach weapon in hand unless the PC has Quick Draw). The PC would essentially be readying an action to brace as long as he has sufficient time to identify the bad guys.

Grand Lodge

Except brace *is* a ready action.

So you are readying to ready to hit them.

As soon as you take that first ready action, you have declared yourself as an opponent, and have to set a condition for your second ready, meaning you don't get sneak attack and they can stop and engage you.

I suppose if you rolled a really good bluff ("I'm just casually leaning this spear here, oh, let me get that out of your way") but there would probably be penalties for hard to believe.


If the rogue was invisible or otherwise able to hide in plain sight, I'd allow it. Otherwise, it'd really depend on the circumstances. :P


Overthinker wrote:
Scenario: my thugs have started a bar fight. I'm waiting out side the tavern drink my juice and holding my reach weapon. As the guards run up to the tavern they do not perceive me as a threat. They are running so they do not have a Dex Bonus, meaning I can sneak attack them. They are not "charging" me, but standing next to the door they are running right at me. Can I at the last second brace my polearm? They have not declared a charge, but it is the same motion.
Overthinker wrote:
not a delay as there has been no initiatives yet.

Okay let's get some things in order to determine how the rules handle this.

Brace: wrote:
If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character (see Combat).

RAW, I don't think what you're trying to do works unless your targets actually are charging (not just running).

They don't have to be charging you, but their path has to lead them past you. (Although it's sort of implied in the brace description they should be charging the wielder)
Also, no ready actions outside of initiative, so that shuts this down hard.

RAI, I don't find what you're trying to accomplish too unreasonable, but it raises some issues.

From what I understand, you're saying no one is in initiative yet?
If this is the case, what you are effectively asking for is a surprise round that starts just as they would be in range to attack with a triggered Brace action.

What this effectively means for you is that everyone enters initiative the moment you declare your intent. If they act before you, they can avoid your readied action, because you didn't have the speed to set it up before they get past. If you act first, expect some table variation on whether you can instantly trigger an action you ready by means of setting a condition that already exists.

Liberty's Edge

See Braveheart. Spears (pikes, actually, in this case) braced against charge. VERY visible as it's done. Doesn't happen in the snap of fingers. Surprising, sure, but sneak attack? Nah.


To be clear I basically agree with RedDogMT. While Running is not Charging (they are two different actions) Running is definitely a more reckless movement hence the denied Dex and having the damage go back (outside of sneak attack considerations) to normal vs a braced weapon strikes me as wrong if strictly speaking RAW. I personally probably rule that the player could choose to do either braced damage or sneak damage assuming both were options for the character vs a Running character. I would probably not allow both however. The character would have to either focus on precision needed for the sneak or the bracing needing for inflicting the additional damage against a charge.

You can ready as part of surprise. Brace is a weapon quality not an action. The question becomes what sort of readied action is actually readied when you 'set the weapon against a charge'? It doesn't actually say what sort beyond it's a readied action. Problem is readied actions are varied:

Quote:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
Quote:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Which leaves us where?

Getting any sort of damage more or less assumes the charger/runner continues to attempt his movement (for whatever reason) past the point of impact.

Mostly for me it comes back to the fact the guards are NOT going to run or charge pell mell into the interior of the tavern into deities only know what as that is risky and stupid. A guy standing with an obvious weapon is also NOT going to be ignored until somehow rendered unarmed or less of a potential threat in some manner without some sort of unusual circumstances (like bar fights and other public combat happen once a decade where these guards work). Otherwise halfway intelligent guards order him aside and or to throw his weapons down prior to coming within weapon range.

Anyway need to get offline nasty storms in the area. Be interesting to see where this goes by tomorrow.


As for the guards thinking I'm a threat: the bar is a bounty hunters bar so every one always has weapons there. I'm casually drinking from my mug, which I can drop as a free action, and I'm an investigator/master spy with a bluff bonus of 36, which I can reroll once a day. As for them not running into the bar, I can set up my position slightly further away or let them stop and casually stroll in buying my team another round of whoop ass. So the last issue is them stopping on a dime at the last second. If they do stop before the end of their movement would that effectively end their turn? And allow me to automatically win initiative and make a full round attack before they can act? I'm lost on actions where not everyone has rolled initiative yet, but is still acting.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Well, there is no "brace" action in the game; bracing is readying an action to attack while wielding a weapon with the Brace property.

I think mechanically the only issue here is that the Brace property is triggered by charges, and the Run and Charge actions are too different things. From a strict RAW standpoint, no, running does not trigger the damage boost from Brace, because running is not charging. As a GM, I could see there being a reasonable argument to allow it though.

Liberty's Edge

You are making an assumption: that you can take combat actions while out of combat but that your opponents can't. But that isn't how it work.

The moment in which you declare that you are readying an action all people that can see you are involved in that combat, everyone check his perception against your stealth (or potentially against your bluff in this instance, but I would give you a huge penalty for wielding a reach weapon while trying to appear harmless).

Everyone roll initiative, as for the normal rules. So it is possible that you will ready your weapon after the guards have got there. You haven't a free pass to win initiative.

If the guards fail against your stealth/bluff you will have a standard action during the surprise round while they don't have it. You can use your action to ready an attack with your weapon. As it has the brace special ability you can "set it to receive a charge".

But that is the condition that will trigger your attack. So, if they are charged you will use your readied action to attack the guy that is charging you and get double damage thanks to the brace rules.

The guy that move beside you without charging you? It don't trigger your action. You get an AoO with sneak attack if he is running, but not the "set against a charge" damage increase. Ready action triggers are specific. If you are set to receive a charge you don't have a ready action of "I attack the first valid target that approach the door", you have a trigger of "I attack a guy that is charging me"

PRD wrote:


Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

- * -

Overthinker wrote:

So the last issue is them stopping on a dime at the last second. If they do stop before the end of their movement would that effectively end their turn? And allow me to automatically win initiative and make a full round attack before they can act? I'm lost on actions where not everyone has rolled initiative yet, but is still acting.

Again the same problem. If you surprise them and ready the weapon in the surprise round they don't act at all. The next full round they can run toward you (one at a time) if your stealth/bluff check was successful, but you get to attack once with your readied action, possibly the first guard that move. Then the other guards get to act and probably wouldn't run full tilt toward you.


I'd allow it as a creative situational, but ask for a successful bluff check as well. (To make the guards think you are Not an involved party)

Grand Lodge

Diego Rossi wrote:
many things I agree with

Well, if we posit for the moment that the GM is willing to allow brace to work on someone running past you.

And we assume you can set up some where the passage is only ten feet wide, so the guards can't go around you without coming within ten feet.

Here is what I could see doing:

GM: Guards are running up
Player: I bluff to appear nonthreatening, I make it look like I am just inspecting my spear.
GM: Okay, give me a bluff at minus 5. (Player makes it.) Okay, you have a standard action in the surprise round, what do you do?
Player: I am bracing my spear, readying to strike them as they run past, but I want to make it look like I am just propping the base against that rock there to shave a splinter off the shaft.
GM: Okay... (looks up the penalty for "far-fetched" and "unbelievable.") Give me a bluff at -20. (player makes it.) Okay, that is your action for the round. The next round, the guards start to run past you.
Player: I take my readied action. (Deals brace & sneak attack.)
GM: Okay, that puts you directly ahead of the guards and you have acted for this round. Now they all get their full action.

The PC has gotten brace + sneak attack, at the cost of losing a full round of actions. Hopefully he has dropped at least one guard, otherwise, he is in for a very bad time. He almost certainly would have been better to take the sneak attack in the first round (without the brace) and then hopefully have won initiative and withdrawn back to his friends, or else get a full round of attacks on the guards.


FLite wrote:


GM: Okay, that puts you directly ahead of the guards and you have acted for this round. Now they all get their full action.

PC's can be surprisingly creative at times. what if they had waited to stab the last guy in line? the guards would be mostly inside the structure with an unexpected hostile on their flank.

Just a counterexample.

Grand Lodge

Rathendar wrote:
FLite wrote:


GM: Okay, that puts you directly ahead of the guards and you have acted for this round. Now they all get their full action.

PC's can be surprisingly creative at times. what if they had waited to stab the last guy in line? the guards would be mostly inside the structure with an unexpected hostile on their flank.

Just a counterexample.

I would also accept that.

Liberty's Edge

Rathendar wrote:
FLite wrote:


GM: Okay, that puts you directly ahead of the guards and you have acted for this round. Now they all get their full action.

PC's can be surprisingly creative at times. what if they had waited to stab the last guy in line? the guards would be mostly inside the structure with an unexpected hostile on their flank.

Just a counterexample.

Perfectly acceptable, but the the others guard have entered the tavern and are stopping his companions.

In the scenario depicted, I, as a GM would have the guards very wary. They are entering a bounty hunters tavern where everyone has a weapon to stop a brawl.
In their position I would consider that as "entering a potential battle zone".


FLite wrote:

Ready and brace: you are bracing the spear when you ready.

If you were invisible, and someone was charging past you, I would let you sneak attack with your braced weapon. But the moment you ready (and are not invisible) you are revealing yourself as a combatant.

Readying does not break stealth as it is not an attack. Does the Rouge break stealth when he readies for some unsuspecting schmuck to wander past his ambush point? If yes then he should lose if for delaying too as they are both special initiative actions that involve doing nothing.

Set for charge no more telegraphs what action you readied than readying to cast a spell or make a regular attack, or moving.

Grand Lodge

Bracing a spear means setting it so the impact of someone running onto it will force them further onto it. I am distinguishing here between bracing, and readying. Bracing does not involve doing nothing.

If you are hiding in cover, (using stealth) no, it won't break your stealth. But readying an attack by bracing a spear in plain sight of other people (using bluff) is going to at least make the bluff much, much harder, if not impossible.


Dms call. Leaning pretty heavily towards know. A readied action to brace with a pole arm is kinda obvious. I might allow it with a high enough bluff check to causally lean one end of the pike up against the building while the other dips into just the right spot to be pointed at someone

Paizo Employee Design Manager

FLite wrote:

Bracing a spear means setting it so the impact of someone running onto it will force them further onto it. I am distinguishing here between bracing, and readying. Bracing does not involve doing nothing.

If you are hiding in cover, (using stealth) no, it won't break your stealth. But readying an attack by bracing a spear in plain sight of other people (using bluff) is going to at least make the bluff much, much harder, if not impossible.

There is no Brace action. Bracing is readying an attack while wielding a weapon with the Brace property. There is no mechanical difference between readying a weapon with Brace property and readying one without, until the actual attack is resolved.

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.

Bracing is not a defined action type (standard, move, swift, or free). The action you are readying is an attack action, which is then modified by the Brace property the same way a mounted charge action is modified by the lance's special property or Spirited Charge, assuming that the target of the attack meets the condition (is charging).


Ssalarn wrote:
Brace is not a standard, move, swift, or free action. The action you are readying is an attack action, which is then modified by the Brace property the same way a mounted charge action is modified by the lance's special property or Spirited Charge, assuming that the target of the attack meets the condition (is charging).

The Brace property indicates the ready action you must take is "setting a brace weapon against a charge".

Mechanically this is similar to simply readying an attack, but it's fairly implicit that there's a bit more involved than just waiting until they get in range and that it's probably telegraphed to your opponent.

The phrasing seems to prevent using the action to complete attacks not vs a charge as well.


Ssalarn wrote:


Bracing is not a defined action type (standard, move, swift, or free). The action you are readying is an attack action, which is then modified by the Brace property the same way a mounted charge action is modified by the lance's special property or Spirited Charge, assuming that the target of the attack meets the condition (is charging).

Ready itself is a standard action under the chart

Ready (triggers a standard action) No

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Hmmm.. i wonder if that would let you trade a standard for an extra swift action.

Grand Lodge

There already is another three threads for that. Please don't bring that fight in here.


Reading things for about the billionth time.

Ready is a Standard Action, a preparatory action for another action you take later and resets your initiative. That later action is what can be a standard, move, swift or free action.

The preparatory or special initiative action in this case is 'set against a charge'

Whether this act is obvious or not is completely open as far as I can tell to the GM's judgement and however he wishes to handle it.

The encounter starts and initiative is rolled/decided.

Our OP is already aware and not surprised (In fact it sounds as if he is deliberately setting an ambush). Any rolls and or decisions about the guards awareness of what lies ahead them are made. If I were the GM I'd probably wrap this into one contested roll with benchmarks to decide just how much they note about the situation (guy outside door, guy outside door with weapon available, guy with weapon who might be trying to be all sneaky like and poke someone unexpectedly etc.).

So ... Our OP uses a Standard Action called Ready (set against a charge) and this may or may not be obvious subject per GM discretion. He does so at minimum as his Standard Action taken during the surprise round of combat. Note that any aware guards may or may not go ahead of him in the surprise round. Any aware guards that win initiative and I'm thinking the planned ambush/Readied action goes up in smoke as the aware guard(s) shout warnings. If none of them go ahead of him then continue:

Unaware (surprised) guards continue Running and he impales the first idiot to foolishly rush into the situation. (double damage for braced weapon)

Ditto for Aware (not surprised but slower reacting) guards who lost initiative.

Now after everyone has finished the surprise round the first round of combat starts. Any unlucky folks who go after our OP might now get struck again by Mr Tricksy and his reach weapon (Sneak damage vs anyone who lost initiative and is therefore still flat footed).

Yes? No?

Grand Lodge

Yes, except I am a nice guy GM, and if he made the (very hard) contested roll to fool the guards into thinking the guy with the brace long spear standing outside the place they are expecting a fight to be isn't a danger, I would let him have double damage for brace plus sneak attack. But it's going to be a hard check, remember they have to be unaware of you as a combatant, not unaware of you as an enemy. So you have to convince them not just that you are not hostile, but also not dangerous.


Overthinker wrote:

Scenario: my thugs have started a bar fight. I'm waiting out side the tavern drink my juice and holding my reach weapon. As the guards run up to the tavern they do not perceive me as a threat. They are running so they do not have a Dex Bonus, meaning I can sneak attack them. They are not "charging" me, but standing next to the door they are running right at me. Can I at the last second brace my polearm? They have not declared a charge, but it is the same motion.

You can do it, pretty much.

If you have 5 levels in Fighter with the Phalanx Soldier Archetype, you can ready your Brace Weapon as an Immediate Action.

If you have Improved Feint, you can use your Bluff Check to fake out your opponent as a Move Action.

You can Ready your Feint, and use the Ready Pike Class as an Immediate Action.

If your Brace weapon is also a Reach Weapon, you will get your Attack of Opportunity as they close in past your Reach. If your Feint is successful, your opponent will be Flatfooted.

Liberty's Edge

Kayerloth wrote:

Unaware (surprised) guards continue Running and he impales the first idiot to foolishly rush into the situation. (double damage for braced weapon)

...
Yes? No?

You are forcing the NPC to continue an action that they were doing outside of initiative when initiative start, in the surprise round, when they should not act at all.

Do that to the players and see how they react.

So, No.

And if you take a strict reading of readying a weapon with the brace ability to say that readying isn't obvious, you should take a strict reading of the "against a charge" part too. The NPC are charging? No. The ready action don't trigger.


I get your point Diego, two thoughts:

First that's why if I was the GM any potential ambushers lingering near the front door of the tavern would be disappointed by the guards. They simply would not go running right up the door without some very very good reason for it.

Second assuming the guards were idiotic enough to continue running they would in fact be running when the initiative started as that is their intended plan. Changing that to something else when they are unaware of the foe would be some serious metagaming ... and yes if the players told me they intended to actual Run into the tavern I would assume, if they were oblivious to the ambushing foe, that they would on their initiative continue with their previously stated plan. And they would then find out why that was not a particularly bright course of action. And also why if they were aware the plan is blown out of the water by any foes who win initiative as those foes (or players) could change their previously intended plan based on their new knowledge. The tough part is if they both win initiative but are oblivious to the ambusher they would by winning initiative actually run past the ambusher prior to his actual carrying out the attack ... the guy behind them acting slower is the one getting stuck hard. (I'm still kind of working that part out in my head)

I'd also tend to agree that I'd probably be okay with piling on both the brace double damage and sneak damage to the first poor sot to get stuck. There isn't anything to indicate with certainty that the Ready action is obvious. I do tend to agree however that hiding the fact you are setting against the charge is a tough sell but see Scott's post as evidence that it is something one can potentially do and do so very rapidly if need be. Then it becomes more a question of does one allow a character without those abilities to copy those abilities by overcoming them via success with skill checks with high DCs (particularly if not allowing the players access to those source materials).

Liberty's Edge

The problem is that the rules say that a surprised guy can't act at all in the surprise round, while you have them continuing the previous action.

Let's make an example;

out of initiative:
The PC have entered a enemy sanctuary in disguise during a sacrifice.
GM: the priest plunge his knife in the heart of the sacrificial victim.
PC ROGUE: No way! I draw my dagger with quickdraw and throw it at the priest. I am hidden in the crowd he will not see me in time to react.

The priest perception check against the rogue stealth or bluff 8whatever is more appropriate for the situation) is a failure.

Surprise round priest roll a 18 in initiative. The rogue roll a 1 and get a total of 8.

Normal version of the rules:
During the surprise round only the rogue act and get to throw his dagger doing his sneak attack damage. Maybe that is enough to kill the priest.

The version where the NPC continue his previous action:
at initiative 18 the priest deliver a coup de grace to the victim. Probably he or she dies.
at initiative 8 the rogue can make his sneak attack, but probably now it is useless.

It seem that "the NPC continue his previous action" idea has some problem, don't you think?


An excellent point and example ... (probably why I'm still working this out in my head)

Your priest should not be acting during the surprise round (the mistake I'm making that you are pointing out). Only the Rogue should be. After the Rogue's attack then the Priest gets to change his course of action and would act first in the first round of combat. To make your example similar make it a group ceremony with multiple priests about to CDG the sacrifice. My mistake is the same, which if it was ingame would've been caught (I hope). If unaware (i.e. oblivious to the ambusher) they don't get to act in the surprise round. If aware and win initiative they blow the ambush. If aware but slow to respond is where it gets sticky. Mechanically there's no difference between the surprised guards and aware/unsurprised slower acting but still flat footed guards do to the nature of D20 combat at least vs the first surprise round attack. The difference shows up during the actual first round when our aware guards are now no longer flat-footed (and presumably also not still running) where the surprised guards are both still running and flat-footed.

I also stand by the idea the guards have committed to the Run action and allowing them to change their intended plan without a reason is ... wrong, conceptually at least.

Liberty's Edge

The problem, for me, with the idea in the OP post, it is the "brace with the ready action" part.

If the rouge was saying "I attack the first guard that get within my reach" I would require a way easier bluff or stealth check and apply the sneak attack if the guard fail his perception check or if it get a lower initiative as he is running at the start of the turn. But that is already part of the normal rules.

But what he is trying to do is way ore complicated and require blind and stupid guards and some arm twisting of the rules. This kind of images give an idea of what "bracing against a charge mean". You can't do that surreptitiously unless you are capable to do it as a swift action when you make the attack.

Without the ability to do it as a swift action the stealth check is a automatic failure.

If you use a ready action you react to something that the other guy has done. The other guy can't act in the surprise round but you get to react to his non done action? sorry, it don't respect the rules at all.

Grand Lodge

The guards are running toward the bar, you are a bystander at the doorway. They obvious notice you are there. They will not ignore you as if you were to there.

You decide to ready your weapon to brace.

Roll initiative. Depending upon your roll you may be last, so readying that weapon my not b very useful.

Let's assume initiative is Guard 1, you, guard 2.

Guard 1 moves to you and attacks.

You ready your weapon of a charge.

Guard 2 moves forward and attacks you. This does not set off the readied action...

Just in general I think the whole idea is a pretty ill conceived one.

I presume the guards are complete and total idiots who think you do not in any way exist. They see you at the door with a pole arm. Yes, you are a threat. You want to begin combat? Sure thin roll initiative. No free actions, no surprise actions.

In fact, heck if I were GM, I would do something like "If the PC at the door with the big obvious weapon decides to ready his spear for a brace, I will throw my sword and cut his head off first." There, fixes that problem.

Generally speaking when you have to ask, "Hey why can't I do this?
It generally means you are trying to test the rules in your favor and , no, you can not do that.

Grand Lodge

I think you're overthinking this.

C'mon, I can't be the only one thinking this.

Grand Lodge

Claude, I assumed it was implicit.

Diego, that's why I suggested it could only be done with a near impossible bluff check to both seem to be doing something else (like trying to shave a splinter off the shaft) and to be utterly uninterested in the goings on and not a threat. (hence the up in the DC+20 territory.)

Also why I stipulated that at best it would let you use your surprise round to start the first full round readied to hit the guards as they ran past (assuming you make the bluff, they consider you a non threat, and go on running.)

Also why I sugguested it would only really work on half way competent guards if you found somewhere where they were forced to run past you through an adjacent square, since I don't care how non threatening you are, if I am a guard and you are standing there with a spear pointed outward, I am going to give you some space, just in case I trip and fall onto the point.


Basing a plan on the notion that the guards you want to ambush are incatious morons that suck at actually doing their shop is ... risky.

You have a drawn weapon in hand. (Cant really "sheath" a polearm, so its logically always "drawn").
In front of a rowdy tavern (bounty hunter tavern).
In which a brawl is going on (have started a bar fight).

Sure as heck they see you as a potential threat untill they cleared up the situation.

And once you used your surprise round to ready an action to stab the 1st guard charging you (or running stright past you, i'd let that count as a DM) for extra brace damage, you have opened combat and from then its all in ititiatve order. And yes, that action is visible. Holding a weapon combat ready, ready to strike at any moment, is not casually carring it in hand.

If you want to ambush the guards hide in the shadows, like a dark alleyway on their way to the tavern and throw a dart/shoot a ranged weapon at them for sneak attack goodness when they pass within 30ft. And if you win initiative against them so you can do that again as a full attack.

You plan can only work if you are Invisible, like if you drin a Potion of Invisibility before the Guards show up and when they come you step into the doorway invisibly and ready to strike. Sneak Attack extra damage is now assured, but the brace extra damage still depends on them being morons and running full tilt into a tavern in which a brawl is currently going on, instead of walking in catiously, ready to react to the most assuredly dangerous situation inside.


I think the classic brace idea is 'you let the onrushing enemy coming at you hit the pointy bit in front first'. Notice that the brace weapons generally have piercing damage on them to do this. (And I'd even force variable weapons to do only piercing as a brace.) Thus, the double damage is not from just the ready, it's that you're putting that point between an onrushing enemy and the enemy's target, which is you.

Even if you try to use the 'I clothesline him with my glaive's blade as he runs by' angle, it's still not quite the same. No double damage.

Given what weapon you're using, sneak attack might be a better damage harvest.

All of this, of course, relies on them not thinking someone standing outside a rough bar with a fight inside is not a threat. Would YOU run anywhere around someone with a spear that could be pointed at you? Even if he's not obviously aiming it at you?

If someone's running at you, he's either charging (and planning to get you out of the way) or going to stop up short (what with you in the way) and deal with you somehow. And as an untrained modern person I have my own hesitation in running at a guy with a spear on him. Trained guards?

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