Switch hitter MAD flavored ranger


Advice


I want to make a switch hitter ranger using the Beastmaster, Hooded Champion, and Skirmisher archetypes. Following Treantmonk's guide I've got a good floor plan laid out. I'm just not sure what traits to pick or what my pets should be.

For the animal companions I'm leaning heavily towards two animals of the same type and using the bodyguard archetype for both of them.

I've never planned a pet build are there any special considerations I should be concerned about?


You'll be spending a lot of feats and wealth to keep two animal companions relevant. Boon companion can help, but once you get to higher levels its honestly not very effective in my opinion. Mostly because single animal companions start to become ineffective (offensively) around level 10. And for what it's worth the benefits of Body Guard feats and In Harm's Way wont stack by having two companions. Your ranger will only be able to benefit from 1 companions abilities per attack.

Also, the fact that your effective druid level starts at ranger level -3 is an issue too. You need to be 5th level before you can have 2 animal companions. At that point you will have two level 1 animal companions (which will be kind of weak). This will also be your first opportunity to take the feat boon companion. That will allow you you to have 1 level 5 animal companion and 1 level 1 animal companion. The next time you can take a feat (level 7) you could take it again to shore up the low level animal companion. You could have 1 7th level companion and 1 5th, or two 6th level companions. As you can see, at each level their strength just becomes further diluted. Not to mention that you have to spend 2 feats in order to do this. And your trying to switch hit, and the archetype you want to take causes you to lose 1 combat style feat (the 6th level 1) and the other archetype forces you to choose archery as your combat style.

Switch hitters typically focus on archery minimally, only using a bow in the opening rounds of combat. Then switching to a two handed weapon.

A cursory glance at everything your trying to do here just makes me think the character is not going to be very effective overall. You're trying to do too much.


The build wasn't focusing on the A.C. and I was gonna delay grabbing my second pet until I had full druid level at twelve.
The bodyguard archetype was more to benefit the pets than the owner

The skirmisher archetype would let me get in or out of combat faster with surprise shift, chameleon step, and stag's leap. It would also help disable my opponent in melee. My feat selection was meant to compliment this.

The hooded champion archetype does dictate I use the archery combat style feats, that feat chain is interrupted by improved empathic link. The real drawback i find is the light armor for the panache abilities.

Aside from one feat it pretty much mirrors the popular advise guide for rangers.


Claxon said:
Claxon wrote:

You'll be spending a lot of feats and wealth to keep two animal companions relevant. Boon companion can help, but once you get to higher levels its honestly not very effective in my opinion. Mostly because single animal companions start to become ineffective (offensively) around level 10. And for what it's worth the benefits of Body Guard feats and In Harm's Way wont stack by having two companions. Your ranger will only be able to benefit from 1 companions abilities per attack.

Also, the fact that your effective druid level starts at ranger level -3 is an issue too. You need to be 5th level before you can have 2 animal companions. At that point you will have two level 1 animal companions (which will be kind of weak). This will also be your first opportunity to take the feat boon companion. That will allow you you to have 1 level 5 animal companion and 1 level 1 animal companion. The next time you can take a feat (level 7) you could take it again to shore up the low level animal companion. You could have 1 7th level companion and 1 5th, or two 6th level companions. As you can see, at each level their strength just becomes further diluted. Not to mention that you have to spend 2 feats in order to do this. And your trying to switch hit, and the archetype you want to take causes you to lose 1 combat style feat (the 6th level 1) and the other archetype forces you to choose archery as your combat style.

Switch hitters typically focus on archery minimally, only using a bow in the opening rounds of combat. Then switching to a two handed weapon.

A cursory glance at everything your trying to do here just makes me think the character is not going to be very effective overall. You're trying to do too much.

Darn it, I got defensive again. Whenever I post i tell myself I won't do that and i do it.

There really needs to be a more apparent banner posted screaming how outdated Treant's guide is.

After some much deeper digging I've found the design flaws of my original plan and the importance of the 6th level combat style feat, PBM.

I still think my idea is relatively workable as an archer with two wolf bodyguards.
Power attack, lookout, improved overrun, charge through, and greater overrun

Changing the design focus to an archer with pets really changes my feat selection

I'll go back to my drawing board and keep digging. I do feel this dex/cha ranger can work.

For my traits I think I'm leaning towards dangerously curious and armor expert or reactionary


It's been an evolving idea for a few days now, but this is what I've come to so far.

My Abomination of a Ranger:

01HD:
Armor expert/Reactionary
Dangerously curious
Point blank shot
Weapon focus (longbow)
Track
Panache (Cha)
Deeds:
Dead aim
Derring-do
Dodging panache

02HD:
Rapid shot

03HD:
Precise shot
Favored terrain (+2)
Deeds:
Hooded champion's initiative
Kip-up

04HD:
+1 Dex
Wolf companion 1 (bodyguard)
2HD
Power attack (-1 attack/+3 damage)
Link
Shared vigilance

05HD:
Favored enemy (+2)
Hunter's trick: (wis+2/day)
Trick shot
Wolf companion 1 (bodyguard)
Boon companion
5HD
+1 Int
+2 Nat Armor
+1 Str/Dex
Improved overrun
Lookout
Tenacious guardian
Wolf companion 2 (bodyguard)
2HD
Power attack (-1 attack/+3 damage)
Link
Shared vigilance

06HD:
Improved empathic link
Wolf companion 1 (bodyguard)
Power attack (-2 attack/+6 damage)
6HD
+4 Nat Armor
+2 Str/Dex

07HD:
Woodland stride
Hunter's trick: (wis+3/day)
Sic'em
Wolf companion 2 (bodyguard)
Boon companion
Power attack (-2 attack/+6 damage)
6HD
+1 Int
+4 Nat Armor
+2 Str/Dex
Improved overrun
Lookout
Tenacious guardian
Devotion

08HD:
+1 Dex
Swift tracker
Favored terrain (+4/+2)

09HD:
Snap shot
Hunter's trick: (wis+4/day)
Bolster companion
Deeds:
Evasive
Swashbuckler's grace

10HD:
Point blank master
Favored enemy (+4/+2)
Wolf companion 1 (bodyguard)
7HD
Charge through

11HD:
Quarry
Deadly aim (-3 attack/+6 damage)
Hunter's trick: (wis+5/day)
Hobbling attack
Wolf companion 2 (bodyguard)
7HD
Charge through

12HD:
+1 Dex
Deadly aim (-4 attack/+8 damage)
Strong bond
Wolf companion 1 (bodyguard)
9HD
+6 Nat Armor
+3 Str/Dex
+1 Con
Greater overrun
Uncanny dodge

13HD:
Manyshot
Favored terrain (+6/+4/+2)
Hunter's trick: (wis+6/day)
Surprise shift

14HD:
Shot on the run
Wolf companion 1 (bodyguard)
10HD
+8 Nat Armor
+4 Str/Dex

15HD:
Improved snap shot
Favored enemy (+6/+4/+2)
Hunter's trick: (wis+7/day)
Chameleon step
Wolf companion 2 (bodyguard)
10HD
+8 Nat Armor
+4 Str/Dex

16HD:
+1 Dex
Deadly aim (-5 attack/+10 damage)
Deeds:
Cheat death
Swashbuckler's edge
Wolf companion 1 (bodyguard)
Power attack (-3 attack/+9 damage)
11HD
Weapon focus (bite)

17HD:
Hide in plain sight
Clustered shots
Hunter's trick: (wis+8/day)
Tangling attack
Wolf companion 2 (bodyguard)
Power attack (-3 attack/+9 damage)
11HD
Weapon focus (bite)

18HD:
Archery combat style feat
Favored terrain (+8/+6/+4/+2)
Wolf companion 1 (bodyguard)
12HD
+1 Con

19HD:
Improved quarry
Feat???
Hunter's trick: (wis+9/day)
???
Wolf companion 2 (bodyguard)
12HD
+1 Con

20HD:
+1 Dex
Deadly aim (-6 attack/+12 damage)
Favored enemy (+8/+6/+4/+2)
Master hunter
Wolf companion 1 (bodyguard)
+10 Nat Armor
+5 Str/Dex
Greater tenacity

It's meant to be an archer with two pets that get full round actions in the surprise round

For stats i think it's dex>con>cha>wis>str>int

Can anyone help me make it work?


I haven't had time to look at the build, but the stats I use on my archers are dex>str>con>wis>int>cha. Dont dump charisma since you need it for your companions and put ranks in handle aninal. 1 rank + 3 class skill + 4 animal companion bonus and you are almost auto making the most common checks a dm could have you make to command your companions (which iirc, is a free action). As a human, id keep intelligence at a 10 as well since you'll have 7 skills to start. If you don't need skills and/or dont mind the possibility of being forced to play a little dope, dump away!


Going though the build (prepare for a novel):

Why armor expert?

You absolutely want to have precise shot at first level! Weapon focus is good, but precise shot prevents a crippling -4 from happening on the majority of your attacks. I know you don't have companions yet, but it only takes one party member threatening an enemy for you to wish you had it.

In my experience, the best first feat for an animal companion is toughness. Idk how you will be doing the HP for them, but chances are it will be fairly dismal. They do get evasion before you (which is amusing), but aoe damage from casters (usually higher level than you) will be hard to handle for them and toughness is a nice buffer (as is increasing their saves). Especially at level 5, a 2HD companion is going to get rofl stomped (please keep snuggles in the back. Like 50 feet back). Enemy casters are well into 3rd level spells and have likely reached 4th. Just be prepared for companion death (which fortunately isn't a big deal depending on how lax your DM is about training rules since you can get a new companion for free). Not to mention they will be in melee taking the hits for you.

How attached are you to the wolf companion? I <3 trip, but as an archer tripped opponents get +4 ac against you because they are prone. Obviously there is significant tactical advantage to tripping (especially when you have multiple melee characters on the same target) and it may be worth it, but it also might be worth diversifying your animal companions to include other combat maneuvers. Just some food for thought.

Having said the above, I've never seen a good use of overrun. That is not to say that it can't be or isn't good, I've just never seen it so I am a bit skeptical of that maneuver. Having identical companions is cool, but if you stick with that maneuver, I'd have the biggest one overrun so that the other can go to town on the guy that was overrun. Trip and overrun could be cool together since you can, ideally, charge through to knock them prone then the person you are actually charging gets tripped (I like it!). Additionally, just be aware that you may have problems as levels get higher with larger opponents.

I've never had a situation where shot on the run would be useful, but again that doesn't mean there aren't (usually if I'm running away from something, I'm hauling ass out of there and if i can't run I'm dead anyways)! I would just consider a different feat if possible (perhaps earlier clustered shots?)

The ever wonderful snapshot line! :D TAKE COMBAT REFLEXES. IDC WHAT YOU HAVE TO DROP, TAKE IT. Having 15ft reach is BEGGING FOR COMBAT REFLEXES and you are primarily dex based so you will probably have more aops than you'll know what to do with (nice synergy with all the maneuvers you will hopefully be getting off too).

One thing to heavily consider, as Claxon said, is that you will be INCREDIBLY gold hungry. Kitting out three things with standard wealth by level is going to suuuuuuccckkkk. I know because I've done it (leadership and animal companion FFTW! :D) and you will have to make sacrifices to keep your private army well equipped enough to be relevant. Your party members will have cool shiny things that you will not have for a while because you are making sure fluffy and snuggles have belts of strength and con and cloaks of resistance (not to mention large barding). This is a fact. If you are comfortable with this, then go for it, but if this bothers you DO NOT DO IT. You will be a sad panda.

Related to the above, remember to BE A TEAM PLAYER. Even if you will be less equipped than your party members, working together will help you so much. Your build implies that you intend on doing so, but I just wanted to say it to make sure. Flanking, aid another, little numbers add up. You will be fortunate to have 3 people to control so you can even make your own plays :D

In closing, this is how I would summarize my perception of your character's playstyle:
Your character will never be the best archer. Fortunately, he doesn't need to be because he has two companions (in addition to the rest of the party) to control the battlefield for him. Between maneuvers and just being giant freaking wolves, you will have the freedom to take potshots on enemies all day while the frontliners do their thing and get in the enemy's way. Your hunter tricks will further control the battlefield by debilitating enemies to enable your frontliners. Does that sound about right?


Gummy Bear wrote:
I haven't had time to look at the build, but the stats I use on my archers are dex>str>con>wis>int>cha. Dont dump charisma since you need it for your companions and put ranks in handle aninal. 1 rank + 3 class skill + 4 animal companion bonus and you are almost auto making the most common checks a dm could have you make to command your companions (which iirc, is a free action). As a human, id keep intelligence at a 10 as well since you'll have 7 skills to start. If you don't need skills and/or dont mind the possibility of being forced to play a little dope, dump away!

The Hooded Champion archetype has me wanting a higher charisma though

Gummy Bear wrote:
Why armor expert?

I've read an "armor cheat guide" that used armor expert and other equipment to reduce ACP by 5 and that mithral armor counts as a weight category less than normal. I probably don't need to worry about this, but it sounded like a cool idea for the hooded champion portion of things

Gummy Bear wrote:
You absolutely want to have precise shot at first level! Weapon focus is good, but precise shot prevents a crippling -4 from happening on the majority of your attacks. I know you don't have companions yet, but it only takes one party member threatening an enemy for you to wish you had it.

You're very much right. I'm trying to think of why I went the way I did, but my best excuse is doing it at 3am while working

Gummy Bear wrote:

Spoiler:
In my experience, the best first feat for an animal companion is toughness. Idk how you will be doing the HP for them, but chances are it will be fairly dismal. They do get evasion before you (which is amusing), but aoe damage from casters (usually higher level than you) will be hard to handle for them and toughness is a nice buffer (as is increasing their saves). Especially at level 5, a 2HD companion is going to get rofl stomped (please keep snuggles in the back. Like 50 feet back). Enemy casters are well into 3rd level spells and have likely reached 4th. Just be prepared for companion death (which fortunately isn't a big deal depending on how lax your DM is about training rules since you can get a new companion for free). Not to mention they will be in melee taking the hits for you.

How attached are you to the wolf companion? I <3 trip, but as an archer tripped opponents get +4 ac against you because they are prone. Obviously there is significant tactical advantage to tripping (especially when you have multiple melee characters on the same target) and it may be worth it, but it also might be worth diversifying your animal companions to include other combat maneuvers. Just some food for thought.

Having identical companions is cool, but if you stick with that maneuver, I'd have the biggest one overrun so that the other can go to town on the guy that was overrun. Trip and overrun could be cool together since you can, ideally, charge through to knock them prone then the person you are actually charging gets tripped (I like it!). Additionally, just be aware that you may have problems as levels get higher with larger opponents.

I've never seen a use of overrun and I'm pretty sure my GM hasn't either. Should be fun.

I'm not attached to wolves

Actually one of my plans was one pet until 13 then taking the second pet, but I wanted to use tenacious guardian with lookout asap

These pets won't get evasion because they've got the bodyguard archetype

Gummy Bear wrote:
The ever wonderful snapshot line! :D TAKE COMBAT REFLEXES. IDC WHAT YOU HAVE TO DROP, TAKE IT. Having 15ft reach is BEGGING FOR COMBAT REFLEXES and you are primarily dex based so you will probably have more aops than you'll know what to do with (nice synergy with all the maneuvers you will hopefully be getting off too).

I want combat reflexes, but I don't know what to push back or give up

Gummy Bear wrote:

In closing, this is how I would summarize my perception of your character's playstyle:

Your character will never be the best archer. Fortunately, he doesn't need to be because he has two companions (in addition to the rest of the party) to control the battlefield for him. Between maneuvers and just being giant freaking wolves, you will have the freedom to take potshots on enemies all day while the frontliners do their thing and get in the enemy's way. Your hunter tricks will further control the battlefield by debilitating enemies to enable your frontliners. Does that sound about right?

this is indeed right

And I almost forgot about shot on the run. My GM manages to keep us moving in combat. We could be in a tiny room with nowhere to move, but walls will close in, floors with drop out, or traps will spring. Bad things happen if you stand still.


Besides needing charisma for panache I'll need it for animal handling and for UMD to pseudo cast from scrolls and wands better.

Claxon is probably right about me trying for too much, but that makes me want to try for it even harder.


Well it sounds like you have built the character you wanted to build! Have you played him yet? At this point, I would recommend to leave the planning alone until you get a few games in/know more about the adventure. That might help you respond with your build appropriately. Maybe you fight medium creatures all the time, or maybe your party members make a part of your build unnecessary (or possibly even more important!).

I'm going to assume a 20 point buy. With what I understand of your character, this is how I would do the stats (with racial bonus applied to dex both times):

str 12
dex 18
con 14
int 10
wis 10
cha 13 +1@4, other points where you want them

alternatively, this might work too
str 13 +1@4, other points where you want them
dex 16
con 14
int 10
wis 12
cha 14


Gummy Bear wrote:

Well it sounds like you have built the character you wanted to build! Have you played him yet? At this point, I would recommend to leave the planning alone until you get a few games in/know more about the adventure. That might help you respond with your build appropriately. Maybe you fight medium creatures all the time, or maybe your party members make a part of your build unnecessary (or possibly even more important!).

I'm going to assume a 20 point buy. With what I understand of your character, this is how I would do the stats (with racial bonus applied to dex both times):

str 12
dex 18
con 14
int 10
wis 10
cha 13 +1@4, other points where you want them

alternatively, this might work too
str 13 +1@4, other points where you want them
dex 16
con 14
int 10
wis 12
cha 14

Your first stat block looks like what i would go with.

I haven't played him yet and that's actually my problem right now. My group is currently playing an open sandbox evil campaign, but we haven't been able to meet up in over a month thanks to holidays, family problems, and work. I've gotten bored and need a pathfinder "fix", so I start planning out future characters ideas or working on my GMing projects and I can only read carrion crown and iron gods so many times before I losing sanity.

Thank you for your advice Gummy Bear. I've amended my plans and included combat reflexes and swapped weapon focus and precise strike. I'll probably take some more time and try and find another animal companion builds; maybe either warcats or velociraptors, because overrun looks far too easy to side step.

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