Gestalt ideas for a specific character concept.


Advice


So this character was born into a guardian sect that protected an order who in turn protected ancient knowledge. He grew up in a small town surrounding a sprawling complex, raised solely to guard the mystics that lived inside. Through a series of events he was the only one left living and though the guardians were never supposed to enter the libraries and laboratories of the complex after guarding the place for too long he couldn't resist anymore. He studied inside the building until it was raided and destroyed by those who decided the knowledge was their's.

So we have on the one hand his guardian training and on the other some kind of mystical training related to an ancient order.

What are some interesting gestalt ideas for such a character?


If 3rd party is allowed, Warder/Magus would fit like a charm. Warder is an intelligence-based warrior with a focus on defense and teamwork, while Magus has arcane the arcane knowledge flair to it. Mechanics and flavor come together nicely with this combo, and gestalt makes it work seamlessly.


Guardian training suggests to me a cavalier; there are several orders which could apply (e.g. order of the Tome, the Guard, even of the Penitent if he feels guilty enough about what happened.) Guarding a town and complex might not involve a mount which in turn suggests the Daring Champion archetype.

Mystics sound religious. Probably lore oracles, optionally with the spirit guide archetype. Do you feel like playing a Daring Champion Cavalier // Lore Oracle?


druid(ancient guardian archetype)/and either alchemist or investigator


Does gestalt allow PrCs?

If so I'd go daring champion cavalier 4/dragon Sorc1/Dragon disciple x on one side and pure kensai magus on the other side.
Dragon disciple needs spontaneous casting but increases any arcane casting. So you could use it to increase magus casting while still levelling the magus to get your casting abilities higher than your level.
You have high dex and high int and get both to AC. For Cha a 11 is enough.

For less cheese and a no casting but ancient knowledge feel you could see if the Tovenaar 3pp magus archetype is allowed. Combine that with the monk and use domain strike + mystic combat to apply two domain powers per round in addition to full attacking.


I could see the mystic part as shaman and more or less any full BAB as Guardian.

Look at unchained monk/speaker of the past wood shaman.
The unchained monk does not have the restriction on natural weapons during flurry. So he can fully benefit from the shaman's tree limb ability. The spirit shield revelation gives you a protection that gives an armor bonus without interfering with the monk AC bonus.

Once you get it the vine strike spell adds damage to all your unarmed and natural attacks and enemies must save or be entangled on every hit.

And you have all strong saves.


Warder is allowed and would be pretty sweet for the Guardian half. Though I agree that Cavalier or Monk would be a good fit as well. I've also been considering Eldritch Guardian Fighter, I love that archetype, what are some good archetypes to combined with it?

For the mystic side, when I say mystic I don't really mean religious but they could be. More that they were magical, secretive, reclusive and powerful.

I'm also allowed Occult Adventures. Anything in there I should look at?


Just a Guess wrote:

Does gestalt allow PrCs?

If so I'd go daring champion cavalier 4/dragon Sorc1/Dragon disciple x on one side and pure kensai magus on the other side.
Dragon disciple needs spontaneous casting but increases any arcane casting. So you could use it to increase magus casting while still levelling the magus to get your casting abilities higher than your level.
You have high dex and high int and get both to AC. For Cha a 11 is enough.

For less cheese and a no casting but ancient knowledge feel you could see if the Tovenaar 3pp magus archetype is allowed. Combine that with the monk and use domain strike + mystic combat to apply two domain powers per round in addition to full attacking.

Just found out I was wrong. You can never get additional attacks to the unchained flurry except for haste.


How about Order of the Staff Daring Champion/Kensai? You can use an estoc, and kill all the things.


For pure Cha cheese Paladin of Irori Lore Oracle.

Or a bladesomething arcanist/any warrior class. Like a magus but crazier.

If using Occult and you can wait, an unchained monk/psychic with the new monkish discipline would rock thematically speaking.


Quote:
Dragon disciple needs spontaneous casting but increases any arcane casting. So you could use it to increase magus casting while still levelling the magus to get your casting abilities higher than your level.

Gestalt rules don't allow you to get your caster levels higher than the class would be at your max level. Same is true for sneak attack damage, base attack bonus, other things like that. Of course gestalt is very open to house rules.

This whole idea kinda revolves around what the knowledge in the temple was.

- If it was a druidic order then you should go with Fighter, ranger, maybe barbarian as your guardian side.

- If it was a holy site then paladin is obvious, but fighter, cav, or cleric could work.

- If it's some kind of draconic knowledge bloodrager would be really thematic.

Monk, fighter, or bloodrager could work for almost anything with the right flavoring.

As far as the knowledge side of the class any full casting class seems like it would work.

Shadow Lodge

I feel like a character who gained magic by disobeying his order's prohibition would be more likely to gain arcane than divine power - divine agents generally don't reward disobedient servants. However with a few exceptions (barbarian//scarred witch doctor, sorcadin) full arcane casters don't synergize too well with full martials - you end up splitting a lot of focus between combat and casting. So I'd suggest leaning more towards combat with a martial//part arcane gestalt.

If you do feel like something divine I might suggest a monk//shaman who was invited into the complex by the spirits as their last hope after the rest of the organization was destroyed. Monks are thematically appropriate for guardians of ancient mystical secrets and there's good Wis synergy with the combo. The shaman provides strong casting while the monk has defense, mobility, and potentially martial offense. The Unchained monk provides good general offense, but the sohei gets armour and makes a good reach build, and the sensei has good support abilities. Lore or ancestor spirit fit thematically.

Dasrak wrote:
If 3rd party is allowed, Warder/Magus would fit like a charm. Warder is an intelligence-based warrior with a focus on defense and teamwork, while Magus has arcane the arcane knowledge flair to it. Mechanics and flavor come together nicely with this combo, and gestalt makes it work seamlessly.

I'm not really familiar with Warder but it sounds like a great combo to me.

The Pale King wrote:

I've also been considering Eldritch Guardian Fighter, I love that archetype, what are some good archetypes to combined with it?

For the mystic side, when I say mystic I don't really mean religious but they could be. More that they were magical, secretive, reclusive and powerful.

Eldritch Guardian mechanically works really well with Investigator, since you get all good saves, great skills, and access to combat buffs including the great studied combat on top of the fighter's core combat competence. Thematically it might be pushing your idea of "mystical" but I think it fits if you're guarding a sort of Freemason/Illuminati secret society. My second choice would be bard (possibly Magician) for the mystical class - it has similar types of benefits but is more magical. Magus is also fine but I think Magus//Warder is better than Magus//Eldritch Guardian.

The Pale King wrote:
I'm also allowed Occult Adventures. Anything in there I should look at?

I'd check out the Occultist and maybe the Medium. I haven't playtested either myself but the occultist's implements look interesting and useful to a warrior (start with abjuration and transmuation), the medium can be possessed by combat-focused spirits, and both classes feel thematically appropriate for someone who essentially stole secrets from a mystical organization. You could pair either with the Eldritch Guardian, and the Occultist should also work pretty well with the Warder.


Some ideas I have for the mystical side:

1. Blade-adept Arcanist or Bladebound Magus. The character growing up in a martial order focused first on the combat applications of a huge trove of arcane knowledge. He also found himself a fancy sword in what seemed to be some kind of prison. Cue blackblade.

2. Alchemist, he couldn't quite understand the tomes of magic, but he was always good at chermicals, poisons and the like, so finding a magical lab led him down the path of Alchemy.

3. Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle. The society was an elven society and kept the elven lore through out the millenia. Some kind of device in the complex is used to bestow new oracles with the ancient knowledge of the elves, my character stumbled across it.

4. Shaman, Medium or Spiritualist. The spirits of his former masters and the many other beings in this place latched on to him as their last hope.

For the martial side at this point I am just debating between Warder, Unchained Monk, Daring Champion Cavalier and Eldritch Guardian Fighter. Can Maguses even use shields?

Shadow Lodge

The Skirnir magus can use a shield, though the archetype's costs are a little steep. Keep in mind you'll need a hand to provide somatic components so a light shield is preferable. Is a shield important to you?

In general, what do you see yourself doing in and out of combat? Do you want to spend a lot of time casting spells or do you see the magic as secondary, something slapped on to support martial training? Do you want to do a lot of direct damage, control your enemies, or support your allies? Are any kind of skills you want (such as Knowledge or Use Magic Device)?

Do you know what the rest of the party looks like?


I bring up the shield because Warders kind of rely on using one for the most part.

I'd like a character who can do some supporting, some battlefield control and is good at taking hits, damage is tertiary. I also want him to have some viable options for most out of combat situations.


The Pale King wrote:

I bring up the shield because Warders kind of rely on using one for the most part.

I'd like a character who can do some supporting, some battlefield control and is good at taking hits, damage is tertiary. I also want him to have some viable options for most out of combat situations.

I believe that a character such as this and is a guardian as described in the OP should 1) be capable of martial and of casting, 2) be smart enough to know when he is beat and be able to track or assassinate those who bests his fellow guardians, 3) have skills enough to be able to function solo.

My interpretation for this is an oracle and ranger. The ranger brings the skills and combat to respectable levels without the full mystic components but then the oracle is a perfect mystic if ever there was one (ok a druid too). Depending on your own interpretation of that combination you could be an ancient lorekeeper who has access to three caster lists OR you could be a mystic who has been punished/blessed because of the characters actions by being a dual cursed oracle.

My first proposed build is a half elven ancient lorekeeper battle oracle with a TWF ranger. Grab a wakizashi prof from skill at arms and cruise on the fact that you will get TWF, improved TWF, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, improved critical, and more for free across the levels and fairly fast with full BAB. Because your melee abilities are covered this will free you up to be a great caster using metamagic or other great feats to full effect.

Got to run but that's one option. I also like the idea of you being a proability manipulator and that is how you survived and will fulfill your mission. does that interest you?


I like your thoughts on this a lot and I have considered Ranger for the job before. Oracle and Ranger are pretty MAD together but it is 25 point buy.

What do you mean by probability manipulator?

Shadow Lodge

I didn't see much about shields in the class description, just steel defense. Is it the stances or maneuvers?

If damage is tertiary then you probably want a heavier casting focus, since that will give you more support and control options. That means arcanist, oracle, or shaman - or alchemist, which can achieve effective control with bomb-altering discoveries while providing support through infusions.

Unchained Monk//Shaman is a pretty good combo for support and control. You get hexes and spells of both types (misfortune, entangle, bless, cures, restoration) even before selecting your spirit. The Unchained Monk is pretty durable and can lay down a little extra control with stunning fist, maneuvers, or some style strikes, or provide support with the Insightful Wisdom ki power. You'll have to pass on armour but Wis to AC should compensate for that, especially if you can get Mage Armour. If you feel like being fancy you can try a kusarigama which is a reach monk weapon with the grapple and trip properties, which gives you some options for playing with those maneuvers (and drag and reposition).

Renegadesheperd wrote:
My first proposed build is a half elven ancient lorekeeper battle oracle with a TWF ranger. Grab a wakizashi prof from skill at arms and cruise on the fact that you will get TWF, improved TWF, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, improved critical, and more for free across the levels and fairly fast with full BAB. Because your melee abilities are covered this will free you up to be a great caster using metamagic or other great feats to full effect.

TWF is a bad style for characters that expect to cast in combat because it occupies the free hand you need for somatic components. Also I'd avoid a gestalt that MAD - even if you have a good point buy, why not take something with a bit more stat synergy, like Shaman//Ranger? The witchguard is a flavourful archetype for you that also adds more support. Archery is a good style either to focus in or to make a switch hitter (one or two melee feats plus the style and you're good).


The Pale King wrote:

I like your thoughts on this a lot and I have considered Ranger for the job before. Oracle and Ranger are pretty MAD together but it is 25 point buy.

What do you mean by probability manipulator?

What I mean is a character based on making friends and foes reroll their dice at least once and probably more per battle. At the same time the character buffs all rolls with a bonus.

One such example I could bring to the table is vanilla cleric of Chaldira who channels luck portfolio to add a bonus to ALL rolls or to undead give them a minus to all rolls. On top of that you can use tactics domain to hand out 2 dice to initiative roll and luck domain 1st power for a similar 2 dice roll for one person to everything. Heck even the fate domain 8th level power forces rerolls. Another way to go about this idea is a dual cursed oracle for its simplicity of misfortune revelation.

Heck you could even combine those two for major laughs :) On top of that there are a number of racial reroll abilities that can effect friend and foe alike. Humans and halflings I think were the best at it but I could be wrong. And of course there is divine interference. Let me know what you think.

As for ranger oracle being MAD, its not as bad as you think. 10,16,14,12,13,14 with race bonus going where u want to.

Feats:
1) Weapon finesse
Half elf: Exotic weapon prof
2 Ranger) TWF
3) Piranha strike
3 Ranger) Endurance
4 Oracle) weapon focus
5) ???
6 Ranger) Improved TWF
7) ???
8 oracle) improved critical
9)???
10 ranger) Greater TWF
11) ???
12 oracle) Greater weapon focus

all ??? are basically whatever you want them to be because lets face it your melee ability is cruising. Yeah you need a free hand to cast but there is a point where being able to melee is near impossible. that's ok because you didn't have to invest a single feat beyond level 3 (and piranha strike is debatable).

Id like to add that this doesn't include maneuver mastery revelation's two feats at all. Even if you never want to use a combat maneuver you still get those feats so as to be able to defend against them. And the war initiative mystery is just awesome.

In short, your going to be able to swap tactics do what you want when you want.


Stop the press I got a breakthrough for the ranger and oracle!!! Be a human who take the adoptive parentage (elf) alternate racial trait. You trade in your extra feat for elven curve blade prof being a martial weapon that ranger will grant to you. On top of that you will have skill focus and skilled. The elven curve blade has the same crit range and you can just go power attack, cleave, and such instead of TWF. Best of all you will have a free hand at all times for when you want to cast. decrease dex to a 10 because down the road you will likely want heavy armor from battle oracle revelation.

Any objections? I think it comes down to human vs half elf OR extra attacks of TWF vs ease of casting.

Shadow Lodge

Renegadesheperd wrote:

What I mean is a character based on making friends and foes reroll their dice at least once and probably more per battle. At the same time the character buffs all rolls with a bonus.

One such example I could bring to the table is vanilla cleric of Chaldira who channels luck portfolio to add a bonus to ALL rolls or to undead give them a minus to all rolls. On top of that you can use tactics domain to hand out 2 dice to initiative roll and luck domain 1st power for a similar 2 dice roll for one person to everything. Heck even the fate domain 8th level power forces rerolls. Another way to go about this idea is a dual cursed oracle for its simplicity of misfortune revelation.

So why are you recommending oracle for this? Shaman gets Fortune and Misfortune as hexes, and also has access to Divine Interference.

You have slightly fewer combat feats but the Battle Shaman can still get Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus, and the human can take Weapon Focus instead of Skill Focus as their ancestral arms benefit.

Renegadesheperd wrote:
As for ranger oracle being MAD, its not as bad as you think. 10,16,14,12,13,14 with race bonus going where u want to.

Shaman//Ranger could use 13,16,14,12,14,10 or 10,16,14,10,16,10 (since you don't really need 12 Int when you have 6 skill points from your class and 1 from skilled). And the headband for your primary casting stat also improves your secondary casting/DCs rather than having to split further improvements between Cha and Wis or else neglect your Ranger casting.

I would also strongly consider using the Elven Branched Spear instead of the Curve Blade. Reach is really useful if your primary concern is control and support. Attacking approaching enemies improves your control of the battlefield, and you can get more attacks (of opportunity) in rounds that you cast. Battle Master hex gives you an extra AoO along with the feats, so you don't even really need Combat Reflexes to take advantage of this.


I don't want to come off as a jerk but shamans stink. a shaman's revelations are almost never as good as an oracles and the gap in the battle mysteries is HUGE. Second the quality of a standard action hex that at high levels up to three rounds versus an immediate action is a matter for some debate and preference as both have merits. However if im in a group small enough that gestalt 25 pt buy character is being used then a standard action hex is plain weak. Third, im not advocating a battle oracle for the dice manipulator. In fact im advocating only a single level for of oracle but I didn't want to post the build unless it was something the OP wanted as he expressed some interest in the ranger/oracle possibility.

Finally, the misfortune at level 1 for an oracle is a lifesaver at those very early levels because one crit can kill you. The standard action hex for one round the shaman has will not save you and only works if someone else cleans up because your not able to kill em.

Shadow Lodge

The oracle does get some very good revelations, but I don't think that they are that much better as a whole than hexes. Consider also that the shaman gets 8 hexes compared to 6 revelations, and more stuff that's not hexes: two set spirit abilities (the Battle Shaman gets Bane!) plus a wandering spirit and wandering hexes which improve the class's flexibility. Your familiar can take its own actions and assist in combat by delivering touch effects at range, attacking directly, or improving the master's AC by 2 increasing effective HP by 50%.

The shaman also has stronger spellcasting for a support/control character. Shamans get the same key support spells as the oracle, but also get a wider variety of control spells, including entangle, frostbite, the fog line, and sleep/deep slumber. As a prepared spellcaster they also have an easier time providing circumstantial healing spells like Remove Curse.

Note that the dual-cursed archetype that provides the immediate action rerolls also replaces some of your bonus spells, which makes it incompatible with the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype OP is interested in (and which provides the best way to diversify the oracle's spells).

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
However if im in a group small enough that gestalt 25 pt buy character is being used then a standard action hex is plain weak.

Why are you assuming a small group? I'm playing a gestalt campaign right now with rolled stats equivalent to over 30pt buy. We have 5 players.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
In fact im advocating only a single level for of oracle but I didn't want to post the build unless it was something the OP wanted as he expressed some interest in the ranger/oracle possibility.

What's the other class involved? And how were you planning on getting all three feats from the Weapon Mastery revelation with only one level in oracle? The answers to this question might make the build significantly better overall.

Shadow Lodge

Second Suggestion: Slayer//Alchemist(Grenadier).

Control: Smoke bombs, stink bombs, sticky bombs, blinding bombs, curse bombs, dispelling bombs, yay! Grenadier gives you more control over your bombs and adds a stagger debuff at level 10. You can also take talents to add debuffs to your sneak attack. Your Int determines the DCs so make it your best or second-best stat.

Support: Infusions cover the bases.

Basic combat: Studied Target (which also works with bombs) and Sneak Attack. Slayer Talents give access to combat styles (archery for bomb throwing, or two-handed for power attack), weapon focus, and any one other combat feat of choice. You probably will want to grab Weapon Finesse at 1st level instead of as a talent so you can concentrate on Dex as your main physical stat. You're proficient in medium armour and shields, neither of which interfere with alchemy - though if you don't want to use them consider Stygian Slayer for some sneaky spell access.

Noncombat: Tons of skill points, skill talents, skill bonuses through studied target and certain extracts. You have a lot of options for stealth and subterfuge, a good selection of knowledge skills, and survival/tracking.

Elf is a top race choice thanks to racial stat bonuses. Elven immunities help fortify your low will save (the combo's biggest disadvantage), and you get proficiency in the curve blade and branched spear. Consider trading the Elven Magic trait for Envoy, which gives you SLAs.

You can get a familiar as a discovery.

Third Suggestion: Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1 Slayer X//Arcanist (Blade Adept)

Control/Support: 9 level casting using Sorc/Wiz spell list. You can also take the sneak attack debuffs.

Basic combat: Swashbuckler gives you free finesse and weapon focus(rapier), setting you up for fencing grace. Easy dex build. Opportune parry and riposte is a good defensive ability that gives you AoO (again, attacking while casting) and runs off a panache pool that uses your two Arcanist stats (Int and Cha). Since Swashbuckler gives diminishing returns you then transition to Slayer for studied target, sneak attack, and skills. Blade Adept doesn't have great combat benefits but the sword and spellstrike are nice. Other archetype exploits may not be worth it compared to the basic list.

Noncombat: Similar to the Slayer//Alchemist, you have tons of skill points and extra bonuses through talents, studied target and certain spells. You have a lot of options for stealth and subterfuge, a good selection of knowledge skills, and survival/tracking.

Pretty much all good saves, though the swashbuckler dip gets a bit odd.

Again, elf is a really strong race choice. I'd trade away weapon familiarity (which you won't use) for arcane focus (+2 casting defensively), fleet footed (+2 initiative), or maybe fey thoughts (+2 class skills from a list).

Normally I'd recommend Magus for these types of characters for Spell Combat but since damage isn't a priority for you I expect you'll get more use out of the variety of the Arcanist spell list.


you could do magus (Skirnir) 13 lore master 7/ phalanx Soldier 3 Unchained Armored Hulk Barbarian 4 stalwart defender 10 Unchained Armored Hulk Barbarian 3

Take the Calm Stance rage power and convince your gm it works for mad magic

so you are a defender one one half and a mage on the other and you don't complete lore master because you never got to read all forbidden knowledge be for it got raided (and you want heavy armor spell casting)

and you get +4 str +2 to hit and damage +4 con +4 temp hit points and no change to your ac

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