Decent Spear wielding warrior build advice


Advice


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I don't know if any of you are familiar with the anime Fate/Zero but in that anime there is a spirit character named Lancer.

As the name would suggest he is a master of spear combat. Looks like he is wearing some form of light armor and wields a long spear in one hand and a shorter one in the off hand.

Inspired by this I was going to build a character like that for the next game I am going to be involved in. It is kind of new territory for me for this kind of build so I wanted to engage the community for build tips and weigh out the pros and cons.

Scarab Sages

The best way I can think of to do this off the to of my head would be two levels of that barbarian archetype that gives you jotun grip, then go into two weapon fighting. Your to-hit will suffer pretty bad and your stats will be spread pretty thin. You may want to think about multi-classing ranger for access to pre-req free feasts.


Only using Paizo material I'd be hardpressed to come up with a way to dualwield a two-handed spear and a one-handed spear without suffering atrocious attack penalties. That said, I think Choon is right in that you'll probably want to start with two levels of Titan Mauler barbarian for Jotungrip. The problem is that TWF and light armor really benefits from being dex-based, while shortspears and longspears are normally incompatible with Weapon Finesse.

You could do Swashbuckler 1/Titan Mauler 2 - swashbuckler finesse lets you treat all 1-handed piercing weapons as finesse weapons, and Jotungrip specifically says you treat your weapon as one-handed for various purposes - possibly including Swashbuckler Finesse. Assuming your GM signs off on it, that'd mean the swashbuckler level would let you use dex to hit with both spears. You'd still be looking at a -6 penalty when making attacks though. -2 for TWF, -2 for Jotungrip, and another -2 because you're not using a light weapon.

Path of War: Expanded has some absolutely fantastic support for spear wielders (twf or normal) in their upcoming release, but unfortunately that's 3rd party material. Not sure if that's an option for you.

Scarab Sages

You could use a small longspear as your reach weapon. You would have -2 to hit with it but that is the penalty you would take from jotungrip anyway. You wouldn't actually need two-weapon fighting, you can simply alternate your attacks if you are attacking at reach or adjacent.


Yeah, there really isn't a viable way to do this in Pathfinder. It's possible, but you're dooming yourself to suck if you try it. You're looking at attack penalties that'll make a Core Monk confident in his accuracy.

Sovereign Court

Lancer from Fate/Zero, I wouldn't recommend. Lancer from Fate/Stay Night is more reasonable and works better in pathfinder.

But well if you want to go Fate/zero what I would do:

-Titan Mauler 2 : you need these levels to actually wield two handed weapons in one hand.

Rest of the levels, go into Polearm Master as it would actually allow you to do all kind of tricks with your spears, such as adjusting their length so you can hit adjacent opponents, making 5-ft step with your opponents.

Now the tragedy:

You are going to need Dexterity, two weapon fighting, and Strength because you are still a melee character. You can boost your strength with rage from titan mauler but you don't have many rounds. You technically don't need to go all the way down on the two weapon fighting tree, as he usually attacks with one of the spears at a time, instead of striking with both. Fighter will give you plenty of bonus feats, Lunge is going to be a must have feat.

With all the penalties, that you will be rocking, Weapon focus, weapon specialization etc...are going to be must have. I would recommend to avoid Power attack, instead focus on feats like Vital Strike and increasing your reach with Lunge.


Well.... There is a slight compromise in concept that can really work, if you're willing. Namely, you just use a pair of Shortspears and Effortless Lace. While it doesn't fully mesh with the flavor you want, it's going to be as close as you can get without massive penalties. Add in Ranger to get the needed feats for free, or Unchained Rogue to get glorious Dex goodness, and you're in good shape.


Problem with WF, Weapon Spec etc. is that he'll be wielding two different weapons and WF will only apply to one of them. He'll only get half the normal mileage out of Weapon Focus and the like. :-/

Grand Lodge

Effortless Lace could help, on multiple parts.

So Slayer/barbarian, at 4th (earliest you could confidently afford the 2 laces) is looking at just the -2 for TWF. Something you can counter with study target.

Sovereign Court

Kudaku wrote:
Problem with WF, Weapon Spec etc. is that he'll be wielding two different weapons and WF will only apply to one of them. He'll only get half the normal mileage out of Weapon Focus and the like. :-/

Pretty much at least the polearm training from polearm master, will help a bit against the penalties.


mourge40k wrote:
Well.... There is a slight compromise in concept that can really work, if you're willing. Namely, you just use a pair of Shortspears and Effortless Lace. While it doesn't fully mesh with the flavor you want, it's going to be as close as you can get without massive penalties. Add in Ranger to get the needed feats for free, or Unchained Rogue to get glorious Dex goodness, and you're in good shape.

Unchained Rogue doesn't help since Finesse Training only works with finesseable weapons, and shortspears aren't finesseable.


Gisher wrote:
mourge40k wrote:
Well.... There is a slight compromise in concept that can really work, if you're willing. Namely, you just use a pair of Shortspears and Effortless Lace. While it doesn't fully mesh with the flavor you want, it's going to be as close as you can get without massive penalties. Add in Ranger to get the needed feats for free, or Unchained Rogue to get glorious Dex goodness, and you're in good shape.
Unchained Rogue doesn't help since Finesse Training only works with finesseable weapons, and shortspears aren't finesseable.

Sure, they aren't Finesseable normally. But you throw an Effortless Lace onto a one-handed slashing or piercing weapon sized for you, and it counts as a light weapon for pretty much all intents and purposes. It even specifically calls out Weapon Finesse.

Effortless Lace wrote:
If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon's intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.

So, yes, Unchained Rogue actually does help.


mourge40k wrote:
Gisher wrote:
mourge40k wrote:
Well.... There is a slight compromise in concept that can really work, if you're willing. Namely, you just use a pair of Shortspears and Effortless Lace. While it doesn't fully mesh with the flavor you want, it's going to be as close as you can get without massive penalties. Add in Ranger to get the needed feats for free, or Unchained Rogue to get glorious Dex goodness, and you're in good shape.
Unchained Rogue doesn't help since Finesse Training only works with finesseable weapons, and shortspears aren't finesseable.

Sure, they aren't Finesseable normally. But you throw an Effortless Lace onto a one-handed slashing or piercing weapon sized for you, and it counts as a light weapon for pretty much all intents and purposes. It even specifically calls out Weapon Finesse.

Effortless Lace wrote:
If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon's intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.
So, yes, Unchained Rogue actually does help.

Sure, Weapon Finesse works with the Effortless Lace, but you can take that feat no matter what your class is. The reason to take Unchained Rogue is getting DEX to damage. (I assumed that was what you meant by "glorious DEX goodness.") But since shortspear isn't a finesseable type of weapon, it can't be selected to get DEX to damage via the Finesse Training class feature.


Fighter (Phalanx Soldier) 3 / Unchained Rogue 11

Mainhand: Elven Branched Spear
offhand: Buckler + Shortspear with Effortless Lace

=
Dex to attack and Damage
Reach
-2 for TWO, -1 for Buckler


Eltacolibre wrote:

Lancer from Fate/Zero, I wouldn't recommend. Lancer from Fate/Stay Night is more reasonable and works better in pathfinder.

But well if you want to go Fate/zero what I would do:

-Titan Mauler 2 : you need these levels to actually wield two handed weapons in one hand.

Rest of the levels, go into Polearm Master as it would actually allow you to do all kind of tricks with your spears, such as adjusting their length so you can hit adjacent opponents, making 5-ft step with your opponents.

Now the tragedy:

You are going to need Dexterity, two weapon fighting, and Strength because you are still a melee character. You can boost your strength with rage from titan mauler but you don't have many rounds. You technically don't need to go all the way down on the two weapon fighting tree, as he usually attacks with one of the spears at a time, instead of striking with both. Fighter will give you plenty of bonus feats, Lunge is going to be a must have feat.

With all the penalties, that you will be rocking, Weapon focus, weapon specialization etc...are going to be must have. I would recommend to avoid Power attack, instead focus on feats like Vital Strike and increasing your reach with Lunge.

Eltacolibre - If I go with the fate/stay night build of him how would that work in pathfinder you think?

By the way thanks for all the great advice so far from everybody. I really appreciate it. In the grand scheme of things I might just go single lance build and not have to worry about the off hand penalty or any other ones that were mentioned. Maybe I will throw in a shield and lance build as well. My race of choice was going to be half-orc for this by the way.

Grand Lodge

I'm surprised 2 levels of slayer for TWF and ignoring the dex for TWF.

Sovereign Court

Lancer from Fate/Stay night is fairly easy and with his divine origins and knowledge of magic, also known as a berserker in some summoning, could go multiple routes:

feats in general: Lunge, Power Attack, Vital Strike, Spear Dancer and depending if you can afford it: Bleeding assault, and bleed related feats in general, to represent his spear making people bleed/striking the heart.

A)Polearm Master (Fighter archetype) is mostly the one you saw in the FS/N anime, as he didn't have access to all his magic. Like usual, like most europeans spirit, he would receive a significant boost in europe even enabling to summon fortress and the likes.

B) Ranger with the two-handed combat style, grabbing shield of swings to represent his strong defense is recommended. Take favored enemies related to most monsters, Lancer one of his special ability was that he was good at killing monsters, the ranger spell which allows you to switch favored enemies will come in handy here.

c) Warpriest, if you want to represent his magic and fighting capabilities roughly at their maximum levels. Warpriests has the advantage of qualifying for fighter only feats too, cast buffs as swift actions, protection from evil and stuffs like that, come in handy to represent his magical prowess and the fact that he is a demigod too.

d) If you want to focus more on the spear that can kill somebody, Slayer and just grab assassinate as one of your slayer talent at higher levels.


The Guide Ranger is useful for grabbing the benefits of Ranger styles without being tied to favored class mechanics. It operates more like a Slayer - only x/day targeted buff, but the buff is twice as strong and you don't have to wait until level 7 for it to become a swift action.

If you want a weird and wonderful combination of a fighting character with some magic to them, a level (or a few levels) of Dual Cursed Oracle with the Nature, Lore or Lunar Mystery can give you a really potent bit of magic with the Misfortune revelation and possibly the Ill Omen spell, can 'magically' improve your defense with a revelation that uses Charisma for AC instead of dexterity, and can utilize a +2-3 Divine Favor with the Fate's Favored trait. Four levels of such an Oracle combined with a Guide/Skirmisher Ranger would give you both magic and mundane combat buffs, a decent debuff spell, a potent immediate-action magic debuff and some 'on-hit' debuff Hunter's Tricks.

Edit: Oh, and of course an Oracle with one or two levels of Barbarian and the Extra Rage feat can be a combat monster. Divine Favor/Power, Fate's Favored, Rage, Greater Magic Weapon and a Furious+Courageous weapon is brutal enough that you could dual wield with additional penalties and still crush things.

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