Thought experiment: TWF wood oracle with quarterstaff


Advice


OK, here's the concept.

PFS-legal, preferably (though this is a thought experiment so I don't mind hearing about non-PFS variants). Thus, 20-point buy.

Oracle with the Wood mystery.

Select a race that allows this favored class bonus for oracles: "Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation." So elf, aasimar, ifrit. If Aasimar, probably Azata blooded (we want a DEX bonus and the +Cha is also nice), or possibly Garuda-Blooded.

I'm starting with elf for simplicity's sake. This grants proficiency in Longbow which is a nice bonus and works with Wood Bond.

Use the favored class bonus towards either the Wood Bond mystery or the Wood Armor mystery.

Wood Oracles get Shillelagh at 2nd level as a bonus spell. Use this spell to enhance a quarterstaff - it is one of the few weapon buffs that enhances both ends of a weapon - as long as it is a quarterstaff. TWF becomes pretty decent at this level. However Shillelagh only works on non-magical weapons so after a certain point it becomes less useful.

If using your favored class bonus on Wood Bond your bonus to hit with wooden weapons would be:

1st level: +1
4th level: +2
7th level: +3
10th level: +4
14th level: +5
etc.

This is not a huge improvement over the regular ability, but as a non Full BAB class the Oracle can use all the help it can get. Also if you are an elf you get proficiency with longbows too.

If using your favored class bonus on Wood Armor your armor bonus from the wooden armor would be:

1st level: +4
5th level: +6
8th level: +8
9th level: add DR 5/slashing
10th level: +10
13th level: +12
etc.

This only gets impressive when combined with magic vestment, so you probably wouldn't use this until 6th level or later. But having no armor check penalty is nice. Between barkskin and shield of faith I'm not sure how necessary this would be.

You could also go with sword & board if you have the feats... though I'm not sure you do. An oracle is proficient with a shield as armor, but not as a weapon. Maybe an opalescent white pyramid?

Problems with the build:

1. Even though you are using TWF you still have STR to damage and to-hit. A quarterstaff or a club are both one-handed instead of light weapons.

2. You rely on a lot of buffs to function, which can cut into action economy.

3. A very MAD build.

4. Many of the spells that would thematically work with this mystery are druid spells and are not on your list.

Development:

Stats:

As elf: STR 14, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 14

Traits: Seeker, Fate's Favored

Feats:
1. Extra Revelation (Wood Armor)
Mystery: Wood Bond
3. Two-Weapon Fighting
5. Divine Protection
7. ?
9. Quicken Spell
11. Improved two-weapon Fighting

Spells (not counting orisons):
1: Shield of Faith, Divine Favor, (cure light wounds)
2: (shillelagh)
3: Bless
4: Bull's Strength, (cure moderate wounds, barkskin)
5: Summon Monster 1, Cat's Grace
6: Magic Vestment, (cure serious wounds, minor creation)
7: Dispel Magic, silence, protection from evil
8: Blessing of fervor, (cure critical wounds, thorn body)
9: Forceful strike, prayer, burst of radiance
10: Righteous might, (mass cure light wounds, tree stride)
11: Breath of life, freedom of movement, ?

This is how things look without gear, but assuming all relevant buffs are up:

1st level with buffs: equipped with morningstar and light wooden shield and scale mail
AC: 10 + 5 armor + 3 DEX + 1 shield + 2 shield of faith = 21
To hit (melee): +0 BAB + 1 wood bond + 2 STR + 2 divine favor = +5
Damage: 1d8+4
HP: 9
Saves: F:+2, R:+3, W:+3

3rd level: equipped with quarterstaff and breastplate
AC: 10 + 6 armor + 3 DEX + 2 shield of faith = 21
To hit (melee TWF): +2 BAB + 1 wood bond + 2 STR + 2 divine favor + 1 shillelagh -2 TWF = +6 (or +7 with bless)
Damage: 2d6+5, 2d6+4
HP: 21
Saves: F:+3, R:+4, W:+4

5th level: equipped with quarterstaff and breastplate
AC: 10 + 6 armor + 3 DEX + 2 shield of faith + 3 barkskin = 24
To hit (melee TWF): +3 BAB + 2 wood bond + 4 STR + 2 divine favor + 1 shillelagh -2 TWF = +10 (or +11 with bless)
Damage: 2d6+7, 2d6+5
HP: 33
Saves: F:+5, R:+6, W:+7

7th level: equipped with quarterstaff and wood armor +1
AC: 10 + 7 armor + 5 DEX + 3 shield of faith + 4 barkskin = 29
To hit (melee TWF): +5 BAB + 2 wood bond + 4 STR + 3 divine favor + 1 shillelagh -2 TWF = +13 (or +14 with bless)
Damage: 2d6+8, 2d6+6
HP: 45
Saves: F:+6, R:+7, W:+8

9th level: equipped with quarterstaff and wood armor +2
AC: 10 + 8 armor + 5 DEX + 3 shield of faith + 5 barkskin = 31
To hit (melee TWF): +6 BAB + 3 wood bond + 4 STR + 4 divine favor + 1 shillelagh -2 TWF = +15 (or +16 with bless)
Damage: 2d6+9, 2d6+9, 2d6+9, 2d6+7, 2d6+7
HP: 45
Saves: F:+7, R:+8, W:+9

OK, how does this build stack up?
What gear should this character be getting?
Any other thoughts?


I would take a Half elf since they Can use both human and elf FCB.(unless PFS house rules that). And take a reach weapon like a long spear. It is mad but oracles have 4 skill points so dumping int is not isane.
I realize this is not TWF but i Think that is a bad option because you need to use a unimpressive weapon.
With a non reach melee guy planning on two buff spells in combat is the same as not partisipating in most battles.
I Think you May be Reading Wood armor differently than i do.
But if TWF oracle is the stuff for you i would Think you are on the rigth track.
I would skip Wood armor and take weapon focus instead, as unsexy as it is, it is a good feat.


What about taking that new elven spear? It may not be twf but u can focus on dex with it ... Finesse it ... And get Dex to DMG.


You can't take extra revelation until you have a revelation, unless you are going to retrain


I've looked at doing this before, and to my mind there are some questions that need to be answered about how some of the revelations work (and shapechange magic in general).

Okay, one of the Wood Oracle revelations lets you shift into plant forms. Eventually you can become a treant or whatever (I like treant, but you could focus on an unarmed attack build - maybe).

1) If you are basically wood, does wood bond affect your natural attacks? Does it affect the natural attacks of something that arguably isn't wood like an assassin vine?

2) Can you cast Magic Vestment on the Wood Armor from the revelation? I tend to think yes, but some people argue no.

3) Let's say you become a treant, or any of the other plant forms. I'd think most people say you lose the wood armor, or any weapon you are wielding, unlike if you somehow shifted into Fire Giant or something form.

But nothing I have ever read tells me you couldn't immediately resummon the Wood Armor as soon as you shifted. Really the only loss you would have is if you had cast Magic Vestment on the armor in human form.

But ironically as nearly as I can tell, if you "prepped" your armor as a treant, it would stay with you if you shifted back to human form.

4) Weapon. Do you lose it transforming? What about other gear like your haversack? You clearly keep things like that in shapes like Fire Giant. I might add if you have the weapon revelation you could summon another, though it wouldn't last long. You could just put it on the ground and pick it up when you transformed. But the size wouldn't change.

5) I guess Treants can cast spells. I'm pretty sure I have seen Treant druids and rangers in different places.

But this kind of thing is woefully undefined in this game.

I think you need a lot of dm interpretation using this mystery.

The upside is big though, a giant sized Tree swinging a telephone pole. Even if it isn't optimized that's good for some smack And lots of style points.

I will say though that I think two-weapon fighting is a trap option for this guy. You just don't get enough feats without a good bit of dipping.

One weapon power attack.

You can also make a viable archer that is pretty viable in melee due to natural abilities, but archery would eat all your feats in this case.


Oh yeah, the ultimate weapon for a fighting huge treant.

The Caber. Not sure that one is in Pathfinder, but a tree... throwing another tree.

That's gotta be good for something, even if it isn't optimized.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/shield-trained

The Shield Trained trait would possibly open up a double shield build as you treat heavy shields as light weapons. A heavy spiked shield of bashing is a light +1 weapon that deals 2d6 damage and cost only 4k. Add improved shield bash and you get to add +3 to AC.

Also I second Half Elf.


I personally would go quarter staff master and shield as above.


Cap. Darling wrote:
I would take a Half elf since they Can use both human and elf FCB.(unless PFS house rules that). And take a reach weapon like a long spear....

There are a couple of problems with half-elf with longspear.

A. Elf gains proficiency with longbow, while half-elf doesn't, and having a decent ranged option is very useful.

B. The main focus for half-elves is multiclassing and skill focus, neither of which does this build much good. Elven magic though is very good for a full caster.

C. The other thing is that your big combat buff from early to mid-levels will be shillelagh which won't work with a longspear.

Wood armor could be taken at 3rd level if you weren't going to use your favoured class bonus on it.

CWheezy wrote:
You can't take extra revelation until you have a revelation, unless you are going to retrain

Oracles get their first revelation at 1st level. So you can take the extra revelation feat at any level.

sunbeam wrote:
1) If you are basically wood, does wood bond affect your natural attacks? Does it affect the natural attacks of something that arguably isn't wood like an assassin vine?

Interesting question, but probably not, based on the wording of the revelation: "bonus on attack rolls when wielding a weapon made of..."

I wasn't really thinking too much about being a treant though.

sunbeam wrote:
2) Can you cast Magic Vestment on the Wood Armor from the revelation? I tend to think yes, but some people argue no.

Well, my argument would be that wood armor is pretty clearly a physical suit of armor. I can see why there would be debate on the mage armor issue, but this is not the same thing.

sunbeam wrote:
3) Let's say you become a treant, or any of the other plant forms. I'd think most people say you lose the wood armor, or any weapon you are wielding....

They would definitely be the wrong size if you became a treant. I am not worried about the shapeshift so much as the synergy between wood bond and shillelagh.

sunbeam wrote:
4) Weapon. ...add if you have the weapon revelation you could summon another...

Probably what I would do if I were going that route.

sunbeam wrote:
5) I guess Treants can cast spells.

They can speak and gesture, so I don't see why not.

sunbeam wrote:
I will say though that I think two-weapon fighting is a trap option for this guy. You just don't get enough feats without a good bit of dipping.

Why this is a thought experiment. Trying to see if it is viable.

Alex Mack wrote:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/shield-trained

It works, but is restricted to worshippers of Gorum. A wood shaman worshipping our Lord in Iron would be a little weird. It's a great trait for sword and board types though.


About using the FCB bonus for the revelations: Here's how it stacks up as compared to just having the base revelation:

Wood Bond:

1st +0
2nd +0
3rd +0
4th +1
5th +0
6th +0
7th +1
8th +1
9th +1
10th +1
11th +1
12th +1
13th +1
14th +2

Putting FCB into wood bond seems like a bad idea to me; it costs you all those extra hp and for most levels only gives +1 compared to not using the FCB.

Wood Armor:

1st +0
2nd +0
3rd +0
4th +0
5th +2
6th +2
7th +0
8th +2
9th +2, DR 5/slashing
10th +4, DR 5/slashing
11th +2, DR 5/slashing
12th +2, DR 5/slashing
13th +4
14th +4

This seems to be better in my view than putting the FCB into wood bond. It takes longer to kick in but scales faster.


Since shillelagh can only be cast on nonmagical weapons, I found a hard time making it work.

Also, while the ac scales faster, the to hit bonus is more valuable IMO.


Peet wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
I would take a Half elf since they Can use both human and elf FCB.(unless PFS house rules that). And take a reach weapon like a long spear....

There are a couple of problems with half-elf with longspear.

A. Elf gains proficiency with longbow, while half-elf doesn't, and having a decent ranged option is very useful.

B. The main focus for half-elves is multiclassing and skill focus, neither of which does this build much good. Elven magic though is very good for a full caster.

C. The other thing is that your big combat buff from early to mid-levels will be shillelagh which won't work with a longspear.

Wood armor could be taken at 3rd level if you weren't going to use your favoured class bonus on it.
...

A. I Think the floating +2 without a-2 on con is Way better that long bow proff. And acess to human FBC, and there are also paragon surge for extra flexibility if you like that. And spells Can often be decent when you are at range even if it is just to make ranged combat a non option for every body.

B. Who ever told you that? Imop the main strength is the floating +2 and that you Can take both human and elf FCB.

C. If you always have several rounds for buffing you May have a point on that one but if you plan pn 2 buff rounds pr combat i dont Think it matters what weapon you use. With a reach weapon you Can move in position buff and fish for AOOs in round one. And i belive your primary self buff should be divine Favor at level 1-7(with Fates favored like every one of cause)
Edit: str, dex, con and cha 14, int 12 and wis 8, Half elf with racial +2 to will and +2 on str. Combat reflexes at level 1, Fates favored and pehaps reactionary.


Proficinecy with Longbow can be aquired via a trait. Either Heirloom Weapon or that old faction trait the name of which I have forgotten.

If you're worried about wood and Gorum. Just play a primal kinda guy. Gorum is pretty big in them primal societies ye know.


If you are that worried about having longbow proficiency, why not just stick with the longbow and be an archer, since that is a superior combat style anyway.

Scarab Sages

CWheezy wrote:

Since shillelagh can only be cast on nonmagical weapons, I found a hard time making it work.

Actually, that's not entirely true.


Cool, that works! 31,000 gold though, you have to wait until like, 11 to get it. What do you do until then?


Half elf has an alternate racial trait that can be used to gain proficiency in Longbow. Might it be worth it to dip 2 levels of ranger to get TWF without having to pay the Dex cost? (Would get longbow proficiency too, for that matter.)


For a strength-based TWF build that isn't a Ranger, Dual Talent human is a godsend - 14/16+, 15/17, 14, 10, 8, 14 takes care of a TWF battle-Oracle's needs with only a minor sacrifice of strength. The Weighted Spear is a great simple double weapon for Wood Bond, and Greater Magic Weapon cast on a Weighted Spear makes Shillelagh pretty much obsolete.


Hey, guys. I appreciate the feedback. Lots of things to go over.

On Using Shillelagh with magic weapons

Imbicatus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Since shillelagh can only be cast on nonmagical weapons, I found a hard time making it work.
Actually, that's not entirely true.
CWheezy wrote:
Cool, that works! 31,000 gold though, you have to wait until like, 11 to get it. What do you do until then?

This is obviously an issue. In a home game I would argue that the oaken staff allows a precedent for custom magic weapons that can be a legit target for shillelagh. Of course, the oaken staff cannot be used for TWF, so you have to use it as a two-handed weapon (or take the quarterstaff master feat). But I'd prefer a PFS-legal character.

Of course, nothing prevents you from casting shillelagh first and then casting GMW after, though when shillelagh runs out you have to get rid of the GMW or you can't cast shillelagh again until it runs out. So this gets expensive if you are not having very short adventuring days.

Alternately you could cast dispel magic on a magic weapon and then cast shillelagh in the period when the weapon's magic is suppressed. Debatable if that would be allowed.

The extra D6 of damage granted by shillelagh is worth a +1 or even maybe a +2 since it multiplies on a crit. Once you get to the point where everyone needs a +3 or +4 weapon you might be in trouble. But PFS tops out at 13th level.

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On other weapons

Dave Justus wrote:
If you are that worried about having longbow proficiency, why not just stick with the longbow and be an archer, since that is a superior combat style anyway.
BadBird wrote:
The Weighted Spear is a great simple double weapon for Wood Bond, and Greater Magic Weapon cast on a Weighted Spear makes Shillelagh pretty much obsolete.

I didn't know about the weighted spear, thanks for bringing it up. However, remember you are casting greater magic weapon twice to enchant a double weapon. At 8th level when you get access to GMW, shillelagh is still arguably better as you use only one 1st level slot instead of two 4th level ones, and the net effect is that the shillelagh has a relative -1 to hit but +2.5 more average damage. At 12th level the math changes a bit as you get +3 from GMW, but this is near the end of a PFS character's life.

Suggesting different weapons is drifting a bit off-topic though as the point of this exercise is to see about making a wood bond/shillelagh build work.

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On different favored class bonuses

CWheezy wrote:
Also, while the ac scales faster, the to hit bonus is more valuable IMO.

Interesting...

I'm not sure I agree, but am willing to consider it.
Assuming you are going from 1st to 13th level:

Wood Bond: you get 5 levels where you get no bonus and 8 levels where you get +1.

Wood Armor: you get 5 levels where you get no bonus, 6 levels where you get +2, and 2 levels where you get +4. You also get DR 5/slashing four levels early.

Seems to me that optimizing for AC might work better. Anyone else with an opinion on that?

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On race choices

Cap. Darling wrote:
I would take a Half elf since they Can use both human and elf FCB.(unless PFS house rules that).

Nope, PFS allows you to take either FCB. Though we don't care about the human one; we are specifically looking for the elf one.

Cap. Darling wrote:

A. I Think the floating +2 without a-2 on con is Way better

...

Interestingly this only changes my stat block by giving me a net +1 to CON as I can no longer dump INT. That's not nothing; a 13 CON can be bumped to 14 at 4th level, which is worth considering. But it's not a huge change.

Cap. Darling wrote:
and there are also paragon surge for extra flexibility if you like that.

It's a decent spell, though it's not the super amazing one that it was before the FAQ. A free feat could be worthwhile for a TWF character.

As a Half-elf you normally gain:

* No CON penalty
* Skill Focus
* Multitalented

But compared to elf you lose:

* INT bonus
* Elven Magic
* Proficiency with bows, rapiers, and longswords

Overall I don't like to lose elven magic, and it's a shame to lose longbow when wood bond also works with that, but half-elf looks like a valid choice. Skill focus could be used for perception, which I want this character to be good at.

There are no good options to trade multitalented out with except Drow Magic, which is tempting, though you lose Skill Focus that way, and it disallows Dual Minded, which is also good.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Half elf has an alternate racial trait that can be used to gain proficiency in Longbow. Might it be worth it to dip 2 levels of ranger to get TWF without having to pay the Dex cost? (Would get longbow proficiency too, for that matter.)

I'm not thrilled about giving up skill focus/drow magic/dual minded for a secondary weapon. I could probably live without longbow if necessary, but it's a nice backup.

Really hate to dip for a full caster, but 1 level of fighter would get you this too.

BadBird wrote:
For a strength-based TWF build that isn't a Ranger, Dual Talent human is a godsend - 14/16+, 15/17, 14, 10, 8, 14 takes care of a TWF battle-Oracle's needs with only a minor sacrifice of strength.

For the record, I am really not keen about dumping WIS. You will note my initial array had a WIS of 12. Your build would have a 1st level perception of +3 instead of +7, and Will saves are pretty important.

But human takes away the elven FCB that was the reason for picking elf in the first place.

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On trait choices

Alex Mack wrote:

Proficinecy with Longbow can be aquired via a trait. Either Heirloom Weapon or that old faction trait the name of which I have forgotten.

If you're worried about wood and Gorum. Just play a primal kinda guy. Gorum is pretty big in them primal societies ye know.

OK, well Fate's Favored is basically a given. For someone who can cast divine favor it's a no-brainer.

For the second trait, I had planned on taking Seeker to make perception a class skill.

Shield Trained is great for a shield bashing build, and as long as you use a wooden shield wood bond will apply. So this is not a bad choice, though it would be weird working in the Gorum-worshipping aspect.

Heirloom Weapon allows proficiency with a longbow, and that is a nice side benefit.

Tough call to choose from these three. Possibly the extra traits feat? Or is that a waste? It delays TWF until L3 which isn't that bad.

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On general strategy

Cap. Darling wrote:
C. If you always have several rounds for buffing...

Well, it depends on the buff. A 1 round per level buff basically needs to be cast during combat, but minute per level buffs last a while and potentially more than one encounter. Unless you are surprised you can usually do a number of these before going somewhere dangerous.

Cap. Darling wrote:
And i belive your primary self buff should be divine Favor at level 1 -7(with Fates favored like every one of cause)

Agree with you there. Part of the idea though is that divine favor and shillelagh stack.


A few random musings on your throughts here:

Buffing in PFS: From my experience if you want to buff once combat has commenced you should limit yourself to one standard action buff. And that buff should always be Divine Favor. Nice thing is you can actually quicken Divine Favor starting level 6 if you invest accordingly into additional traits and quicken spell.

Nice thing about Shilleagh is it's minutes per level duration so once you enter the dungeon/hidout of bad guy/ whatever encounter you can smell from a mile away you can often start combat with Shilleagh already up. My experience in PFS is that about 50% of encounters are predictable.

On combat Styles/Builds:

Archery while prolly superior to TWF is very feat intensive and thus isn't all that well suited for oracles who will be hard pressed to have the "basic" Archery feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot) assembled by level 5. Archery as a back up plan would be nice but sometimes you cant win em all.

I actually think badbird gave some really solid advice on the dual talent Human. Dumping WIS as an Oracle is sorta mandatory anyhow. Sure your loosing the ELF FCB for woodbond but your math shows it|s actuallz not that stellar and usualllz just a plus 1 to hit. The dual Talent human gets plus 2 to hit from his 18 STR and ends up as a veritable bruiser once shilleagh and Divine Favor are on. At level 2 your doubled buffed TWF routine is something like two attacks at plus 6 which deal an average of 13 damage or so.

Scarab Sages

If you are going to go Dual Talent human +STR and +CHA, you might as well go Nagaji or Angel Blooded Aasimar(if you have one grandfathered or a boon in PFS).


Imbicatus wrote:

If you are going to go Dual Talent human +STR and +CHA, you might as well go Nagaji or Angel Blooded Aasimar(if you have one grandfathered or a boon in PFS).

I think the idea of dual talent human was to boost STR and DEX like so

STR 18 DEX 16 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 14


Had a similar idea a long time ago (before the Oracle class was developed) using Druid as base class (they get Shillelagh as a first level spell).

In fact any Samsaran divine caster can get Shillelagh so e.g. Paladin or Ranger are possible alternatives, though they would have to wait to get it. The loss of wood Bond would be more than offset by faster BAB progression/iterative attacks + Bonus Feats (Ranger)/Smite(Paladin).

That said, unless you can get considerable bonus damage with each attack, TWF is not an optimal choice. Spells help, but they cost an action unless quickened.

One way round this would be to play a Samsaran Warpriest. Fervour would enable you to cast Shillelagh as a swift action, probably followed by Divine Favor (or GMW) on the next round. You would still lose the Wood Bond, but it's only a small advantage anyway and I'd still rather have Fervour. You would have to wait a long time for the Feats (though being Human might help). It's certainly worth a try.

Scarab Sages

Yeah, that works too. I still think the TWF is a trap on an Oracle. You need to put too many points into DEX to make it work, and you are using feats that could be more useful elsewhere. You could use a club, and either two-hand it for 1.5 STR, or sword and board it for more AC.


Imbicatus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

Since shillelagh can only be cast on nonmagical weapons, I found a hard time making it work.

Actually, that's not entirely true.

Why in the world do you need teleport to craft that? And without doing something convoluted to access spells, who exactly could qualify for making this thing anyway?


Imbicatus wrote:
Yeah, that works too. I still think the TWF is a trap on an Oracle. You need to put too many points into DEX to make it work, and you are using feats that could be more useful elsewhere. You could use a club, and either two-hand it for 1.5 STR, or sword and board it for more AC.

I've been thinking along the same lines as Imbicatus here and came across an idea which might work as a nice substitue to TWF but play more into your stat alotement. Focus on a single hit and utilize Hurtful to get extra attacks. Problem is if you want that Elf Bonus it takes until level 5 to get hurtful online and if you want it only at level 3 you have to retrain your first level feat (which costs 5 pp).

Also the easiest way to utilize Hurtful is in conjunction with Enforcer+Blade of Mercy and that rules out Shileagh. Also not sure if there are any simple slashing wooden weapons out there.


Just realized Warpriest wouldn't be Abe to cast Shillelagh using Fervour, it only works with self-buffs. That said, Divine Favor still works, you get weapon focus for free, access to weapon specialization and bonus feats which all help.

Scarab Sages

sunbeam wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

Since shillelagh can only be cast on nonmagical weapons, I found a hard time making it work.

Actually, that's not entirely true.
Why in the world do you need teleport to craft that? And without doing something convoluted to access spells, who exactly could qualify for making this thing anyway?

It's needed for the called enchantment. Besides, you don't need to actually cast the spells needed, you just take a +5 to the spellcraft DC for creating it.

Scarab Sages

Alex Mack wrote:


Also the easiest way to utilize Hurtful is in conjunction with Enforcer+Blade of Mercy and that rules out Shileagh. Also not sure if there are any simple slashing wooden weapons out there.

There aren't any simple slashing wood weapons, unless you make them out of ironwood castings.

You could use Bludgeoner, but that eats a feat instead of a trait. You could take Easy Way or the Hard Way or Weapon of Peace to just take a -2 on non-lethal instead, and rely on divine favor to make up for the -2.


Imbicatus wrote:
Yeah, that works too. I still think the TWF is a trap on an Oracle.

Well, it's one of those things that's worse almost all the time but can work out well if planned for. A Wood Bond Oracle has the natural advantage of a significant damage bonus from Fate's Favored + Divine Favor/Power and a free boost to attack from Wood Bond, so if they're willing to deliberately focus their build around doing TWF well they can come out with a decent return on their investment.

Scarab Sages

True. Another option for Shilleligh TWF with a quarterstaff is a Nirmathi Irregular ranger. They can prepare a druid spell as a ranger one. Combine TWF fighting style, Shilleligh, and instant enemy on full BAB, and you have a lot of hurt.


Imbicatus wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:


Also the easiest way to utilize Hurtful is in conjunction with Enforcer+Blade of Mercy and that rules out Shileagh. Also not sure if there are any simple slashing wooden weapons out there.

There aren't any simple slashing wood weapons, unless you make them out of ironwood castings.

You could use Bludgeoner, but that eats a feat instead of a trait. You could take Easy Way or the Hard Way or Weapon of Peace to just take a -2 on non-lethal instead, and rely on divine favor to make up for the -2.

Bummer then you are likely better of delaying hurtful till you can get Cornugon smash or finding a way of getting proficincy in one of the many slashing martial wooden wepons (Glaive for example).


I hadn't known about the hurtful feat... interesting. I'm not sure about it with this character but I have an intimidating Inquisitor who might find it useful.

Quicken spell was something I had considered and it's a very good point about betting the trait that reduces the effective level for metamagic.

BadBird wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Yeah, that works too. I still think the TWF is a trap on an Oracle.
Well, it's one of those things that's worse almost all the time but can work out well if planned for. A Wood Bond Oracle has the natural advantage of a significant damage bonus from Fate's Favored + Divine Favor/Power and a free boost to attack from Wood Bond, so if they're willing to deliberately focus their build around doing TWF well they can come out with a decent return on their investment.

You seem to understand what I am seeing here. That and the use of spells and revelations also allows me to put money in other areas.

The build doesn't have to be super-powerful, it just has to work. Part of what I want to do is have something interesting. The spellcaster angle means you can have a variety of other tricks up your sleeve.

After comparing the FCBs I think I am coming out in favor of the wood armor one. It's a +2 for the majority of levels and a +4 for some levels. That and no max dex bonus means a potentially very high AC which is nice.

I do have an Aasimar character grandfathered in PFS and he is still level 1 so he could be "converted" to this character, but I'm not sure I want to do that. The aasimar is an angelkin bloodrager with the celestial bloodline and I like him so far.


You could instead focus on the club part of shilleighla and couple that with the war drummer skald archetype, possibly also opening up rage prophet


It's a pity that Dual-Cursed Oracle replaces Shillelagh, since Ill Omen is a really, really great way for a melee Oracle to debuff foes badly without worrying about save DC. A level 10+ Quickened Ill Omen is a wonderfully evil thing to do to a foe as a casual hand-wave.

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