Malwing |
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Sort of a joke thread but wanted to see some genuine opinions and general third party praise. The joke part is the term 'Third Party Master Race' in the same vein as 'PC Master Race' when it comes to videogaming. This is mostly because I feel like most of my problems with Pathfinder have been solved with either further Paizo releases in the past few years or third party products. With third party I can do whatever I want. I can fight in space, I can have anime fighting martials, I can have fun nerfed spellcasting, I can play in the past present and future. I can play low magic, high magic or no magic at all. I can play with pokemon, ponies, furries, aliens or gods. I can play all those things at the same time. There are only two realms that we have contemplated playing but don't have material for. (Yugioh and 50+ race point PC races.) And whenever I see a problem posted on the muggle side of these forums I point and laugh for I have a supplement for that already.
So what problems do you no longer suffer from due to third party material? What has changed your games so much that it's been easy sailing since?
Scott_UAT |
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You know, that's a thing a lot of the Pathfinder/D&D community is split on. I hear people say either, "Oh I use modules and only 1st party material" or "I homebrew my settings/adventures and use a lot of 3rd party stuff". I get the appeal of both but I'm on the homebrew/3rd party side of things. Different strokes for different folks. My advice, if you were a new person allowing 3rd party for the 1st time is "restriction". Select a few books and let the players only use the material from those 3rd party books if it is appropriate for the adventure/campaign.
But onto the question at hand- what problems has it solved? A lot of the "fixes" we use are to things the main system is a bit clunky in (ship rules, some crafting stuff, etc). I honestly don't use 3rd party martial as a bandaid all that much. I tend to use it to allow my players/me to play or use new and creative things.
Juda de Kerioth |
i use a lot of house rules and im still see pathfinder as a 3rd party material (regardless the ogl, they didnt create the rules, it was WotC who did it) so, i see some 3rd party good, because pathfinder is good, and in the same way, i laugh the player´s hipocresy:
"i dont allow 3rd party stuff" ok then, why do you start using pathfinder in that case?
The most used from 3rd party from my ppl are Legendary Games products, mostly adventures, and npcs.
Dreamscarred Press: Psionics, Mythic, and Path of War.
Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium, some feats and all ravenloft material as 1st party material
and pathfinder as a main system
Also; Midgard have better world than golarion, if you replace irrisen for midgard you will get a lot of fun.
Malwing |
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For me a few gamechangers have been;
Thunderscape: World of Aden. I didn't appreciate this book when I first got it but it has gone the extra mile in terms of playing dungeonpunk Ebberon-esque fantasy.
A Fistful of Denari. Even if just for two feats and one class the book kind of became a staple in a lot of games I run.
Book of Martial Action, Book of Martial Action II. I was rocking this before Unchained but after unchained and the whole stamina system martials got all kinds of tricks. Unfortunately Path of war is more popular so I don't see it as often anymore but I've seen mid level fighters become absolute engines of death without falling behind in versatility.
Way of Ki. I don't play monks without this anymore.
101 Skill Uses. I haven't NOT used this since I got it unless I'm playing PFS or someone else's game.
MMCJawa |
I don't have anywhere the time and money that some of you folks have for third party material.
That said...I really like that Dreamscarred has updated and kept alive 3.5 Psionics for use with Pathfinder, and I appreciate that Paizo has gone ahead and gone a separate path with Psychic magic.
Also all the work Kobold Press has done on Midgard. I think they did a great job on the flavor and races, and I find Midgard Dwarves and Kobolds far better than their interpretation of them in Golarion.
Right now I am most looking forward to Legendary Games Space Fantasy setting. Its a niche that is not really developed by anyone all that well, and reading the recent GRRM edited Mars and Venus anthologies has me psyched for this genre.
Rynjin |
For me a few gamechangers have been;
Thunderscape: World of Aden. I didn't appreciate this book when I first got it but it has gone the extra mile in terms of playing dungeonpunk Ebberon-esque fantasy.
I like this book. I got it for like 90% off for a game that, sadly, never took off, but I really like the options in it.
Golemoids are the shiz.
Insain Dragoon |
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I'm a huge fan of Third party products.
I have a bunch of 3PP legal in my games, but I tell my players to take care with combining subsystems.
Sure that one feat from X is cool and awesome, but when combined with the archetype Y for class Z from some other publisher it becomes downright stupid.
Currently really loving Liber Influxus, Ultimate Psionics, and to a lesser extent Path of War.
Also getting more closely acquainted with Rite Publishing and Interjection games.
Also I honestly believe a lot of authors in the 3rd party community are more talented than several Paizo employees, but have full time jobs and a lack of professional editors holding them back.
sepik121 |
The setting I use as a GM for Pathfinder is a hodge podge of stuff i've created, and as for rules, the only thing I basically change is crits by using laying waste.
But boy do I use 3rd party material (especially monsters!) in my campaign. There's a ton of stuff out there that's allowed me to more or less create any encounter I can think of.
Malwing |
I see a thread about Spell-Like Abilities and how we need them to qualify for prestige classes because they suck. Ha! I laugh at these mere mortals. I've seen plenty of prestige classes turned into 20 level classes. I can have my Arcane Archers, Eldritch Knights, and Mystic Theurges AND get all 20 favored class bonuses. Even a noob can do it because they don't have to weigh how they're going to multiclass properly. Still want the SLA for qualifying for magic item crafting? Boom, Deep Magic has you covered, plus you have some real magic so your fighter doesn't look like a dork when he can't hit someone with his metal stick.
I also see a thread about gun rules. I have five alternative gun rules, each much simpler to use than the last.
Bandw2 |
Malwing wrote:I have five alternative gun rules, each much simpler to use than the last....But you have five alternative gun rules. I can't see how that doesn't feel awfully bloated to you?
my question is do any of them make the guns more realistic in regards to reload times but still let them be an interesting choice?
Malwing |
Melkiador wrote:my question is do any of them make the guns more realistic in regards to reload times but still let them be an interesting choice?Malwing wrote:I have five alternative gun rules, each much simpler to use than the last....But you have five alternative gun rules. I can't see how that doesn't feel awfully bloated to you?
@ Melkaidor. Since they are each different it doesn't bloat much, I just choose which one works out best for the campaign and since they're fairly simple it doesn't take too much space in the campaign primer I hand out so I never have to go past my one sheet rule. As a player it takes less thinking to deal with them because they function close to most other forms of attacking in the game, mostly because they tend to get rid of misfire so moving away from Paizo guns feels less bloaty than sticking with them. From my perspective as the GM it may feel bloated because I'm the one that has to know about them and slot these mechanics in a campaign but it's no more difficult than putting a template on a monster to make it extra special for the campaign.
@BandW2, Yes and no. With enough feats and items reloading is easy to bypass no matter what how long it is and people tend to see them as worth it because they generally have some kind of significant advantage over crossbows. In some cases they do damage like 4d6 per shot, while others have some kind of pseudo-enhancement bonus that's proportionate to the reload time so you're either you're choosing between a crossbow that reloads like a longbow or a normal crossbow that deals more damage that you need a a bunch of stuff before it fires like a longbow.
Malwing |
i'm imagining like 2 full round actions to reload a firearm(if you're good), but guns always pool all their BAB potential like pummeling style or some such.
Nothing goes that far, particularly with feats involved. At best I've seen Full-round-action to reload before Rapid Reload, and standard action to fire, with different amount of shots based on it's capacity and whether or not it's semi-automatic, or automatic.
Lord Mhoram |
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Narrowing it down to one or two would be impossible- I'm just going to go into the most used books in my game.
In general Rogue Genius' stuff has had the biggest impact. While we like a class based system for our second game, we play Hero for our first system, and we are used to it's flexibility. A lot of RGGs supplements have really given more flexibility for specific character ideas that the core rules don't handle - the Talented Classes and the Magister are a couple of very big ones.
Dreamscarred is used a lot - all three of the big subsystems - Psionics, Akashic and Initiators. They have great flavor and really have great mechanical niche's.
Legendary's expansion on Ultimate Campaign have seen a lot of use.
Librer Influxus Communis, New Path Compendium and the Alternate Path Martial characters all get used.
Malwing |
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I also see a thread about giving martials nice things. I have a ton of nice things for martials. The Book of Martial action, Bravery Feats, 101 Combat Feats. While you guys are struggling with your eventually irrelevant fighters, my fighters will rule the battlefield have decent saves and be capable of actually doing things outside of combat.
Adam B. 135 |
I also see a thread about giving martials nice things. I have a ton of nice things for martials. The Book of Martial action, Bravery Feats, 101 Combat Feats. While you guys are struggling with your eventually irrelevant fighters, my fighters will rule the battlefield have decent saves and be capable of actually doing things outside of combat.
Don't forget Fighter Nuances! That was a really fantastic book.
Also, where did your alternate gun rules come from? I would prefer the simplest one. Hopefully it would be simpler than my homebrew stuff.
As for me, I am trying to build a campaign world that will be mostly 3rd party. It has been a lot of fun coming up with ideas so far. I have been a huge fan of sphere-casting, and I think it will be the official magic of my setting, where as things like Psionics (refluffed as magic), pact magic, and Akasha will be more rare. Arcane and Divine magic will be totally out of the picture (And reduce bloat, Melkiador).
SilvercatMoonpaw |
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For me, it's just needing to draw the line somewhere. I'm sure there are some really good 3pp materials out there, but the Paizo materials have become so large in number that adding all of the extra 3pp options just feels like too much bloat to me.
Then why not just reduce the number of Paizo options you use to compensate?
Richard D Bennett |
For me, Rogue Genius Games' War Master has filled a niche in terms of "combatant commander" that I can sometimes fill with a Cavalier, but usually don't want the horse, to say nothing of the elegant way it solves some MAD problems in making a thinking, sociable warrior.
Malwing |
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Malwing wrote:I also see a thread about giving martials nice things. I have a ton of nice things for martials. The Book of Martial action, Bravery Feats, 101 Combat Feats. While you guys are struggling with your eventually irrelevant fighters, my fighters will rule the battlefield have decent saves and be capable of actually doing things outside of combat.Don't forget Fighter Nuances! That was a really fantastic book.
Also, where did your alternate gun rules come from? I would prefer the simplest one. Hopefully it would be simpler than my homebrew stuff.
As for me, I am trying to build a campaign world that will be mostly 3rd party. It has been a lot of fun coming up with ideas so far. I have been a huge fan of sphere-casting, and I think it will be the official magic of my setting, where as things like Psionics (refluffed as magic), pact magic, and Akasha will be more rare. Arcane and Divine magic will be totally out of the picture (And reduce bloat, Melkiador).
1. Broken Earth. Just makes the firearms more powerful and gives the option to ignore the touch attack rule as a result.
2. Thunderscape. Almost effectively crossbows with better chances to reload faster.
3. Infinite Futures. No misfire or touch attacks unless there's a glitch involved. Divides guns and ammunition listing the damage and type to the ammunition and range and capacity to the firearm itself.
4. Neurospasta/Amethyst. No touch attack or misfire. Firearms do dex to damage naturally. Also involved is a bonus determined by how advanced the weapon is which adds to attack and damage rolls.
5. Between Chains and Starlight. All over the place/complex. No misfire or touch attacks.
If you want simple, I'd go with Thunderscape as it practically makes them into abusable crossbows. Neurospasta avoids the touch attack problem while still making them as relevant as a gun logically should be. It really depends on what you percieve as a problem.
Malwing |
Fighter Nuances are great but are kind of an odd duck in my game. Players are rarely into using them mostly because I've seen my first fighter in a while only last week but combined with the 'I don't want to get my hands into something weird or new' overlap. I am running third party free for all one shots on sundays so maybe I'll have more to say.
I like some of Thunderscape's fluff, but it has nothing on the crunch. Well I don't like how firearms are handled.
With Neurospasta firearms are definitley not on par with bows. Despite the loss of touch attacks getting natural dex to damage is huge. Early firearms are about on par with bows but once the advancement level bonuses and better capacity start to pile on they are way better.
Malwing |
So then it would be reasonable to only let them advance so far, to maintain balance Malwing?
That sounds exciting Christos gurd! Anything for stamina, or are you planning on letting unchained's dust settle?
I guess. At that point reload time and capacity is the real factors in power (discluding things like automatic and semi-automatic functions.)
Kazaan |
Well, the biggest draws of PC gaming, in contrast to Console gaming, are 1) ability to mod, 2) soft hardware caps rather than hard caps, and 3) interface versatility. In my opinion, a PC race (no pun intended) that is inspired by the concept of the PC Master Race would need to reflect these things.
For Ability to Mod, the best example I can come up with is Red Mage from 8-Bit Theater. His whole gimmick was that he is a genre-savvy metagamer constantly "altering his sheet" to give himself an unfair advantage in the actual fantasy world in which they lived. As such, for our PC Master Race to be able to "mod" his experience, he should be able to alter the components of his actual character sheet. I'm thinking something along the lines of, as a swift action, he can use retraining rules "on the fly" and for free. Success may be limited by requiring a slight-of-hand check to accomplish the act.
Regarding soft caps vs hard caps, Console games are often performance-capped in order to accommodate the fixed capacity of the intended console and these caps are often far below the capabilities of a PC (re: the 30fps vs 60fps debate). As such, limitations that apply to other characters in the game should not apply to the player of a PC Master Race. Even if the GM has decided to restrict certain feats, certain books, no third-party, etc. such a character has free access to these resource. If the GM has set a particular point-buy or required rolled stats, such a character may select their own point buy, rolled stats, or whatever stat-determination method he desires.
Lastly, we must address interface. Whereas a console is often restricted to a certain controller associated with that console, PC games can be controlled via keyboard, mouse, USB controllers, joysticks, a multitude of different ways to send commands to the game. As such, the PC Master Race should be able to select from different dice-rolling methods even from other tabletop games. For instance, if he wants to play using 3d6 rather than 1d20, he can do so.
As far as cosmetics, the traditional PC Master Race avatar is glorious and clean with long flowing hair as compared to the dirty console peasant. Thus, any such PC Master Race naturally has a bonus to Charisma. They also have detailed technical knowledge of how computers operate as contrasted with the dirty console peasant who blithely misunderstands technology, trying to justify his console choice by citing blatantly false statistics about consoles vs computers. Thus, the PC Master Race also has a bonus to Intelligence. Therefore, I'd suggest that the Specialized attribute spread from Race Builder would be appropriate, granting a +2 bonus to both Charisma and Intelligence. We need to apply a -2 penalty to one physical score and the most appropriate would likely be Constitution by process of elimination. Dexterity is not a candidate since PC gamers rely significantly on their hands for command input so Dexterity would not be in short order. Between Strength and Constitution, Strength is at least necessary to carry the larger components of a PC rig whereas gamers in general often have the stigma of being less physically fit than most. This even goes along with the idea of them being physically ideal since common beauty "ideals" are often not very healthy (think unhealthy body-builders).
In summary, our PC Master Race PC race has an ability score spread +2 Cha, +2 Int, -2 Con. They have the ability to pull from any rule-set available regardless of GM restriction as well as use any dice combination found in any game at their discretion. As a swift action, once per day, they may attempt a slight-of-hand check to "change their sheet" and, if successful, they may make one change as if using the retraining rules but with no additional time nor money required. Medium size and 30 ft speed seem adequate.
christos gurd |
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So then it would be reasonable to only let them advance so far, to maintain balance Malwing?
That sounds exciting Christos gurd! Anything for stamina, or are you planning on letting unchained's dust settle?
going arms deep into the stamina system on this one. All nuances, new and old, get a combat trick with stamina. working on nuanced(basically unchained) fighter that will hopefully put this product on some lists on this page.
Malwing |
Adam B. 135 wrote:going arms deep into the stamina system on this one. All nuances, new and old, get a combat trick with stamina. working on nuanced(basically unchained) fighter that will hopefully put this product on some lists on this page.So then it would be reasonable to only let them advance so far, to maintain balance Malwing?
That sounds exciting Christos gurd! Anything for stamina, or are you planning on letting unchained's dust settle?
Ooooooh, can I interest you in making fighter nuances that are basically stamina-based skill unlocks? Like being able to jump really high using stamina.
Anyways, more fuel for this thread, Anachronistic Adventures came out meaning that I have more material for out of genre games. Fall of Man is in a similar vein but I haven't fully read that yet so I have nothing to say.
I'm also still laughing at the various Martial/Caster disparity threads going on right now since I have Path of War and Book of Martial Action I&II, Bravery Feats, Fighter Nuances, 101 Combat Feats, New Paths Compendium, Feats of Battle, and Talented Fighter. I sat down to see how far I could go with third party fighters and came up with a guy who at 6th level is dealing 8d6+15 on a vital strike, two lvl 6 fighters that pretty much cripples anything within 30 feet of them, a 6th level fighter that's pretty much Ruroni Kenshin, and a 6th level archer that can solve virtually any problem with an arrow. All of these are 18 Int builds.
Malwing |
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And it only took 9 books to fix what Paizo messed up!
Actually the right combination of two of them works out but only in one area. Basically they fall under;
'helps the fighter': Talented Fighter, Fighter Nuances, Bravery Feats, 101 Combat Feats (101 Combat Feats have a lot of higher level feats that require fighter levels.)
'helps martials': Book of Martial Action, new Paths Compendium, Feats of Battle.
and 'replace martials with better ones': Talented Fighter/Rogue/Cavalier/Monk, Path of War, Book of Martial Action II.
Basically you need one thing that helps martials in general, Then something to specifically help Fighter, Rogue and Monk because those classes fall below even the rest of the martials. Unchained makes this easier to do. Then you need another product that introduces versatility to martials. So you need 5 books to fix it. I know that's not great but it's doesn't have to be 9 books.
But you're right, nobody puts out a 'fix the martials' book very often and when they do it's focused on one class (alienating third party classes that are balanced around core martials) or are super short. (Which isn't bad in itself but silly when there are some books that will introduce thousands of words of caster and magic stuff but you get your martial buffs in, on average, 30 page documents. I'm lucky that I collect this stuff but really That's where martial/caster disparity comes from. The fact that I have two hardcovers on my shelf that are almost 100% exclusive to casters (1001 spells and Deep Magic) and there is nothing that for martials. The best I could do is print out a bunch of martial support and stitch it together to form my own personal 'Omega Combat' book.
Craig Bonham 141 |
I like the expansion to the Mythic options out there (I'm looking at you Dreamscarred and Lost Spheres).
I really enjoyed the addition of mythic to the options out there but it felt like Paizo freaked at the negative response from part of their customer base and just dropped it like a hot potato. I love, and would love even more, new mythic path options since the original book's archetypes were so limited in concept.
137ben |
I like the expansion to the Mythic options out there (I'm looking at you Dreamscarred and Lost Spheres).
I really enjoyed the addition of mythic to the options out there but it felt like Paizo freaked at the negative response from part of their customer base and just dropped it like a hot potato. I love, and would love even more, new mythic path options since the original book's archetypes were so limited in concept.
If you like DSP's mythic expansion (which was written as part of Legendary's Mythic Hero's Handbook), have you seen the Legendary Planet adventure path kickstarter, which currently has two days left?
Anyhow, a TRUE master-race mantains their status as a superior race by passing down their awesomeness through the best bloodlines. And maybe even use their superior blood for martial techniques!
Luthorne |
I'm also still laughing at the various Martial/Caster disparity threads going on right now since I have Path of War and Book of Martial Action I&II, Bravery Feats, Fighter Nuances, 101 Combat Feats, New Paths Compendium, Feats of Battle, and Talented Fighter. I sat down to see how far I could go with third party fighters and came up with a guy who at 6th level is dealing 8d6+15 on a vital strike, two lvl 6 fighters that pretty much cripples anything within 30 feet of them, a 6th level fighter that's pretty much Ruroni Kenshin, and a 6th level archer that can solve virtually any problem with an arrow. All of these are 18 Int builds.
I was looking up some of these; when you say Feats of Battle, do you mean Abandoned Arts' Feats of Battle, or Rogue Genius Games' The Genius Guide to Feats of Battle?
Malwing |
Malwing wrote:I'm also still laughing at the various Martial/Caster disparity threads going on right now since I have Path of War and Book of Martial Action I&II, Bravery Feats, Fighter Nuances, 101 Combat Feats, New Paths Compendium, Feats of Battle, and Talented Fighter. I sat down to see how far I could go with third party fighters and came up with a guy who at 6th level is dealing 8d6+15 on a vital strike, two lvl 6 fighters that pretty much cripples anything within 30 feet of them, a 6th level fighter that's pretty much Ruroni Kenshin, and a 6th level archer that can solve virtually any problem with an arrow. All of these are 18 Int builds.I was looking up some of these; when you say Feats of Battle, do you mean Abandoned Arts' Feats of Battle, or Rogue Genius Games' The Genius Guide to Feats of Battle?
Rogue genius
Luthorne |
Luthorne wrote:Rogue geniusMalwing wrote:I'm also still laughing at the various Martial/Caster disparity threads going on right now since I have Path of War and Book of Martial Action I&II, Bravery Feats, Fighter Nuances, 101 Combat Feats, New Paths Compendium, Feats of Battle, and Talented Fighter. I sat down to see how far I could go with third party fighters and came up with a guy who at 6th level is dealing 8d6+15 on a vital strike, two lvl 6 fighters that pretty much cripples anything within 30 feet of them, a 6th level fighter that's pretty much Ruroni Kenshin, and a 6th level archer that can solve virtually any problem with an arrow. All of these are 18 Int builds.I was looking up some of these; when you say Feats of Battle, do you mean Abandoned Arts' Feats of Battle, or Rogue Genius Games' The Genius Guide to Feats of Battle?
Ah, okay, thanks!