PIXIE DUST |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally I miss the SLA rule. It actually allowed you to do things like Play arcane tricksters and archers and Eldritch Knights without being totally gimped.
As it stands now, there is little way to play an AA without just being mediocre or just bad at both archery AND spell casting..
What do you all think? Good idea or bad?
Malwing |
7 people marked this as a favorite. |
For the greater macrocosm of the game I think that it's a good ruling. I'm not fond of people digging for loopholes to nickel and dime as many plusses on their sheet as possible. I am biased because I'm not a fan of Prestige Classes and I tend to pick up third party 20 level versions of prestige classes.
DM_Blake |
29 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wrong answer.
The real problem is that the prestige classes you reference are somewhat weak. Either they don't have enough features (or good enough features) to be worth it, or the entrance requirements are too steep.
So instead of bandaging that problem by bringing back the old loophole that let some theorycrafters and superior class builders find a way to enter the PrCs earlier, a better solution is to fix the PrCs so that they are worth taking on their own merit so that EVERYBODY, even system noobs, can apply them effectively and NOBODY needs SLA loopholes to use these PrCs.
You should be asking for that.
PIXIE DUST |
Wrong answer.
The real problem is that the prestige classes you reference are somewhat weak. Either they don't have enough features (or good enough features) to be worth it, or the entrance requirements are too steep.
So instead of bandaging that problem by bringing back the old loophole that let some theorycrafters and superior class builders find a way to enter the PrCs earlier, a better solution is to fix the PrCs so that they are worth taking on their own merit so that EVERYBODY, even system noobs, can apply them effectively and NOBODY needs SLA loopholes to use these PrCs.
You should be asking for that.
True, but the SLA thing was still workable. I doubt they will go and completely redo the CRB PCs. So we are stuck with what we got... and with what we got, the SLA ruling atleast let them be viable (W1/F1/EK5/AA X)
Cheapy |
8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Caused too many questions to arise and unbalanced things that were made under the ruling they weren't spells.
When there are guides on which race to pick to get which spell of which casting tradition and which spell level, just so you can make a build using something that was never the original intention, things have gone way, way too far.
Orfamay Quest |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wrong answer.
The real problem is that the prestige classes you reference are somewhat weak. Either they don't have enough features (or good enough features) to be worth it, or the entrance requirements are too steep.
Agreed. In particular, it made certain obscure and cookie cutter builds (particularly with the racial SLAs) into practical characters, but it also meant that, for example, if you wanted to be a mystic theurge, you had to be an aasimar or a tiefling, your cleric side needed to take one of two particular domains, et cetera.
That's not really helpful. Classes should be equally available to anyone and everyone. An elf may not make a particularly good scarred witch doctor, and a dwarf may not make a great sorcerer, but the option should at least be on the table.
FLite |
I am with fix Arcane Strike (and maybe a few other feats?) to allow spell or SLA, and rework prestige classes to either lower the barriers or strengthen the class.
Also, in the other direction, maybe some prestige classes just need "cannot enter until 6th level" like what they did with the evangalist.
graystone |
An elf may not make a particularly good scarred witch doctor, and a dwarf may not make a great sorcerer, but the option should at least be on the table.
You do know an elf can't be a scarred witch doctor right?*
*Without taking sorcerer levels with the orc blood line, but that'd be one of those 'certain obscure and cookie cutter builds' you dislike.
Rynjin |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wrong answer.
The real problem is that the prestige classes you reference are somewhat weak. Either they don't have enough features (or good enough features) to be worth it, or the entrance requirements are too steep.
So instead of bandaging that problem by bringing back the old loophole that let some theorycrafters and superior class builders find a way to enter the PrCs earlier, a better solution is to fix the PrCs so that they are worth taking on their own merit so that EVERYBODY, even system noobs, can apply them effectively and NOBODY needs SLA loopholes to use these PrCs.
You should be asking for that.
He's asking for something that might actually happen.
Better a slim chance of an SLA FAQ reversal reversal than a "HAHAHAHA You f**#in' serious mate?" from the devs.
They refuse to rework Core classes that are broken in any meaningful way without a brand new book, and it's arguable as to whether those changes were "meaningful" anyway.
They're not going to touch PrCs, which they like even less than multiclassing, and on the off chance they do, it won't be until the next hardcover after Ultimate Intrigue which is at the earliest what, November 2016? And somehow I doubt "Ultimate Prestige" is anywhere near the top of their list for books to make.
This suggestion is a good sentiment, but hardly practical advice.
graystone |
Except the SLA FAQ showed, pretty concisely, that that was the wrong answer.
I missed the place where they stated "pretty concisely" why they reversed it. Please point me to that post, as it's news to me. If it doesn't exist, I'm going to continue to assume it was another casualty of PFS.
FLite |
It wasn't necessarily people in PFS. The problem is it allowed a lot of degenerate builds. Level 2 bloat mage entry for example, for that matter, level 2 bloatmage followed by level 3 evangalist, for a level 12 character with two capstones. That was bad enough they errataed evangalist to only be available after level 6.
A lot of the prestige classes that *are* legitimately weak, and needed the help weren't helped because they had skill rank requirements, that couldn't be bypassed.
Rynjin |
Most of the people on these boards I saw complaining about it had something to say along the lines of "...And I'm tired of seeing all these Aasimar and Tieflings in PFS with early entry PrCs".
They seem connected to me, is all, (especially since almost at exactly the same time, Aasimar and Tieflings were banned from PFS altogether).
FLite |
Most of the people on these boards I saw complaining about it had something to say along the lines of "...And I'm tired of seeing all these Aasimar and Tieflings in PFS with early entry PrCs".
They seem connected to me, is all, (especially since almost at exactly the same time, Aasimar and Tieflings were banned from PFS altogether).
Aasimar and Tiefling were problems for other reasons, actually. Namely that with the blood books, they more or less came down to "Pick two +2 stats of your choice."
David knott 242 |
They don't need a whole book to tinker with prestige classes -- a couple of pages in Pathfinder Unchained 2 would be more than enough. Or one of us could do that in a thread in the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum. Or some smart 3rd party publisher could put together a short and cheap PDF about it.
graystone |
Rynjin wrote:Most of the people on these boards I saw complaining about it had something to say along the lines of "...And I'm tired of seeing all these Aasimar and Tieflings in PFS with early entry PrCs".
They seem connected to me, is all, (especially since almost at exactly the same time, Aasimar and Tieflings were banned from PFS altogether).
Aasimar and Tiefling were problems for other reasons, actually. Namely that with the blood books, they more or less came down to "Pick two +2 stats of your choice."
You're missing the point. The complaints about Aasimar and Tiefling weren't in a thread about dumping them but in threads about the SLA early access and seeing them in PFS using that FAQ. In those threads, I don't recall anyone bringing up the blood books or stats in the complaints.
Rynjin |
Rynjin wrote:Most of the people on these boards I saw complaining about it had something to say along the lines of "...And I'm tired of seeing all these Aasimar and Tieflings in PFS with early entry PrCs".
They seem connected to me, is all, (especially since almost at exactly the same time, Aasimar and Tieflings were banned from PFS altogether).
Aasimar and Tiefling were problems for other reasons, actually. Namely that with the blood books, they more or less came down to "Pick two +2 stats of your choice."
That's not really related to what I'm talking about, though TBH I think ALL races should work that way.
Pick your stat bonuses however you please and let the race's other neat abilities and flavor decide which one you want.
FLite |
Except you didn't need teifling or Aasimar for a lot of the early entry cheese. Bloat mage level 2 early entry can be done with a human with a Scry-Diviner wizard. To give you some idea of how broken this is, My level 7 (wiz 1, bloat 4, evang 2) hasn't almost never ended a game with fewer spells memorised than he started with since level 3. I'm trying to find ways to get quicken just because I physically can't burn spells fast enough to get through my bloat points. (5 + (2d8, take best) x2 =16 extra spell levels per day.)
I would rather they had kept the SLA, but to do that they really would have had to go through and set minimum level limits on every one of the features that required SLAs for access, which would have been a never ending project of chase the munchkin.
Chengar Qordath |
DM_Blake wrote:Wrong answer.
The real problem is that the prestige classes you reference are somewhat weak. Either they don't have enough features (or good enough features) to be worth it, or the entrance requirements are too steep.
So instead of bandaging that problem by bringing back the old loophole that let some theorycrafters and superior class builders find a way to enter the PrCs earlier, a better solution is to fix the PrCs so that they are worth taking on their own merit so that EVERYBODY, even system noobs, can apply them effectively and NOBODY needs SLA loopholes to use these PrCs.
You should be asking for that.
He's asking for something that might actually happen.
Better a slim chance of an SLA FAQ reversal reversal than a "HAHAHAHA You f$$&in' serious mate?" from the devs.
They refuse to rework Core classes that are broken in any meaningful way without a brand new book, and it's arguable as to whether those changes were "meaningful" anyway.
They're not going to touch PrCs, which they like even less than multiclassing, and on the off chance they do, it won't be until the next hardcover after Ultimate Intrigue which is at the earliest what, November 2016? And somehow I doubt "Ultimate Prestige" is anywhere near the top of their list for books to make.
This suggestion is a good sentiment, but hardly practical advice.
Yeah, at the end of the day talking about reworking most of the PrCs in the game rather than the quick and simple band-aid that was the SLA ruling is a classic example of making the perfect the enemy of the good. A PrC rework would be the best solution, but in all likelihood it's never going to happen.
The SLA ruling was an imperfect kludge of a solution, but it was a solution that actually happened. I'll gladly take an imperfect solution that I can play right now over a perfect solution that will never show up.
Or heck, let's say Paizo shocks everyone and decides to actually fix PrCs. As pointed out, it'd probably be a couple years down the road. Why not just stick with the imperfect solution until we actually get the perfect one?
graystone |
Instead of that why not make the prestige classes into variant multiclasses. There were only a few cool abilities that they granted anyway. I would give up a few feats for spell arrows.
That again would entail a hardcover book worth of effort when I seriously don't expect to see even a soft covers worth of effort on it. IMO PrC are meant to go the way of the dinosaurs and words of power in Paizo's plans. I'd love to see a rework but I think it'd be a tooth and nail fight to JUST get the imperfect solution of SLA's back.
And again, I liked the SLA FAQ for things like arcane strike access. I never made an early access PrC character but I don't begrudge those that found it useful for that.
DM_Blake |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I never said Paizo was going to rewrite Prestige Classes. Or really even that they should.
What I am saying is games are usually better without loopholes. Playing games is usually better without having players (or GMs) looking for ways to exploit the rules and break the system.
Sure, not everybody agrees with that (mostly the people who like exploiting rules and breaking systems), but I think, probably, EVERY game designer in the world would agree with that (except maybe the guys who designed Paranoia).
Maybe it's time for the vocal minority (that's us, here on the forums) to speak up and make it known that we want a great game, not a good game full of broken, outdated, or obsolete mechanics. Fix the game, balance the unbalanced, and for crying out loud, fix the exploits.
Or, at least, if not that, then certainly not the opposite - let's not invite more exploits...
Blakmane |
Personally I like my games to have content that's actually useable.
As it stands the prestige classes section of the CRB is worth only a little more than toilet paper without early entry. That's very unfortunate.
Hacking off enjoyable parts of the game that others clearly value because you, personally, have issues with it is a pretty low blow. I don't like the encumbrance rules (and rarely use them in my own games other than as a sanity check) but I sure as hell aren't petitioning paizo to remove them.
And yes, it would be great if prestige classes were actually good on their own - problem is, that's never going to happen. Senseless idealism is harmful in this case.
FLite |
How many prestige classes are actually affected by early entry anyway?
I know bloat mage, eldrich knight, and mystic theurge. I spot checked a bunch of others, but they all had skill rank limits that would block early entry. So if most of those are unpalatably weak, then SLA still wont redeem your CRB.
As far as balance goes, bloatmage is broken with early entry, decent (in my opinion) at level 6. eldrich knight is pretty weak by the time you get it, it seems, but I haven't played with it. Mystic theurge seems like it has sweet spots no matter when you get it. But they are later the later you get it.
For all of them, of course, early entry is irrelevant after level 16. It really is how they play around level 9-12 that seems to change. (Which is probably why PFS players care.)
Ragoz |
My feelings toward this entire situation haven't changed since the ruling. I wanted them to fix the Evangelist entry in PFS (the creator of that Prestige class hated the SLA ruling and had a specific clause to prevent it added). Instead they flipped the entire thing and did away with SLAs.
The fact is Prestige classes are borderline useless content. They also very rarely print new ones. SLAs made some of them playable but not overpowered. You can never be stronger than a straight Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.
I would be delighted if they made Prestige classes usable but the fact is they will not be rewriting these classes. The SLA ruling is a way to drastically increase play of these prestige classes and only requires an update on a webpage.
Hacking off enjoyable parts of the game that others clearly value because you, personally, have issues with it is a pretty low blow.
This is pretty much what the entire thing came down to. One camp was the people who wanted to play the game's content, the others didn't and also didn't want anyone else too either. Why their enjoyment is impacted so much by my fun is beyond me.
I guess I'll tac this on so people can at least see a quick opinion if they scroll through:
Bring back SLA early entry. Bring back prestige classes.
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