meaning of "Ability to cast ..."


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

So, in the Monster Summoners Handbook, the Feat Scouting Summons (Metamagic) states;

Scouting Summons (Metamagic) said wrote:
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (conjuration), ability to cast magic jar.

So, for my wizard, does this mean

A - Magic Jar needs to be on my spell list.
or
B - Magic Jar needs to be in my spellbook
or B1 - I need to have memorized Magic Jar that day.


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B would be my assumption.


I would see it as A.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Glewistee wrote:

So, in the Monster Summoners Handbook, the Feat Scouting Summons (Metamagic) states;

Scouting Summons (Metamagic) said wrote:
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (conjuration), ability to cast magic jar.

So, for my wizard, does this mean

A - Magic Jar needs to be on my spell list.
or
B - Magic Jar needs to be in my spellbook
or B1 - I need to have memorized Magic Jar that day.

I believe the answer is A, but it might be B. B1 is, as they say, right out.


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Benefit(s): When casting a conjuration (summoning) spell that summons a single creature, you can possess the creature as per magic jar (but with no receptacle necessary).

So that's part of the rules text for the metamagic in question. I would see it as needing the actual ability to cast Magic Jar on your own if so desired (able to cast spells Magic Jar's level and have it in your book) as you are clearly creating a similar effect with use of the feat. Otherwise I really wouldn't see the point of even mentioned the spell as a prerequisite, but RAW is still unclear to me.

Dark Archive

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Generally 'ability to [do] X' requires you to actually be able to do whatever it is. If the spell is on your list you have the potential but not the ability to do so, so you wouldn't qualify until you had the spell in your book and were of a sufficient level to cast the spell, though you do not usually need to have the spell memorised.


B. If it's not in your spellbook then you can't cast it. Your class has the potential to be able to cast it, but until you learn it you don't have the ability to cast it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

B. spell list isn't really a good indicator of ones ability to cast a spell.


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Kalindlara wrote:
Glewistee wrote:

So, in the Monster Summoners Handbook, the Feat Scouting Summons (Metamagic) states;

Scouting Summons (Metamagic) said wrote:
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (conjuration), ability to cast magic jar.

So, for my wizard, does this mean

A - Magic Jar needs to be on my spell list.
or
B - Magic Jar needs to be in my spellbook
or B1 - I need to have memorized Magic Jar that day.
I believe the answer is A, but it might be B. B1 is, as they say, right out.

I don't think the intention was to allow a first-level wizard to take this feat, so I think A is right out, as well. At a minimum, it would need to be A1: Magic jar needs to be on my spell list at a level that I can cast.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
I don't think the intention was to allow a first-level wizard to take this feat, so I think A is right out, as well. At a minimum, it would need to be A1: Magic jar needs to be on my spell list at a level that I can cast.

I change my vote. This guy here. He's smarter than me.

Scarab Sages

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Treat it as the Dimensional Agility "ability to cast dimension door" requirement. If you are using the spell, you have to have the ability to cast spells of that level. If you have the ability to use Magic Jar as a SLA that works too.


Orfamay Quest wrote:


I don't think the intention was to allow a first-level wizard to take this feat, so I think A is right out, as well. At a minimum, it would need to be A1: Magic jar needs to be on my spell list at a level that I can cast.

+1


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Orfamay Quest wrote:


I don't think the intention was to allow a first-level wizard to take this feat, so I think A is right out, as well. At a minimum, it would need to be A1: Magic jar needs to be on my spell list at a level that I can cast.

Further to previous, I think A1 (as above) trumps B (in my spellbook).

The reason being, feats are eternal, spellbooks are ephemeral.

If I have magic jar in my spellbook, and someone steals it or sunders it or burns it, have I just lost the feat? I would argue no,.... which means not-B.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


I don't think the intention was to allow a first-level wizard to take this feat, so I think A is right out, as well. At a minimum, it would need to be A1: Magic jar needs to be on my spell list at a level that I can cast.

Further to previous, I think A1 (as above) trumps B (in my spellbook).

The reason being, feats are eternal, spellbooks are ephemeral.

If I have magic jar in my spellbook, and someone steals it or sunders it or burns it, have I just lost the feat? I would argue no,.... which means not-B.

Your A1 was what I meant in my head... thank you for writing it better than I did. ^_^

As for the spellbook, I agree. After all, if you don't prepare the spell, do you lose the feat?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


I don't think the intention was to allow a first-level wizard to take this feat, so I think A is right out, as well. At a minimum, it would need to be A1: Magic jar needs to be on my spell list at a level that I can cast.

Further to previous, I think A1 (as above) trumps B (in my spellbook).

The reason being, feats are eternal, spellbooks are ephemeral.

If I have magic jar in my spellbook, and someone steals it or sunders it or burns it, have I just lost the feat? I would argue no,.... which means not-B.

you didn't lose the feat you lost it's prerequisites and thus the benefit of the feat.


Bandw2 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

[F]eats are eternal, spellbooks are ephemeral.

If I have magic jar in my spellbook, and someone steals it or sunders it or burns it, have I just lost the feat? I would argue no,.... which means not-B.

you didn't lose the feat you lost it's prerequisites and thus the benefit of the feat.

.... which would be very odd/unusual. I can't think of any other magical feats offhand that can be turned off by a sunder maneuver.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

[F]eats are eternal, spellbooks are ephemeral.

If I have magic jar in my spellbook, and someone steals it or sunders it or burns it, have I just lost the feat? I would argue no,.... which means not-B.

you didn't lose the feat you lost it's prerequisites and thus the benefit of the feat.

.... which would be very odd/unusual. I can't think of any other magical feats offhand that can be turned off by a sunder maneuver.

any other feat that requires you to cast a specific spell...

anyway what is the wizard doing with his book out on his person? is he insane? damn it Cthulhu stop teaching people magic

edit: actually every feat that applies to an item, such as weapon focus, becomes useless until you gain that item again, just like this feat.


You need easy access to flight before you can put ranks in the Fly skill, and the Fly skill doesn't do you much good unless you have a means of flight. I don't have Monster Summoners Handbook so I can't confirm it, but it sounds like a similar situation. What good would the feat do you without the ability to cast the spell?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

my way of understanding it is you require the ability to "if you had an open spell slot, the ability to prepare or cast said spell".


Your character needs to be able to cast the spell, it doesn't say that you can take the feat if you belong to a class that can cast it... it actually requires you to be able to wake up and do it.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A wizard's spells known are not necessarily the same as the spells in his spellbook.

Though rare, the rules do differentiate between the two. It's a moot point 99% of the time though.

I started a thread on it a while back.

Most of the time those two lists would be the same. In cases where the wizard loses their spellbook, however they should keep a list of which spells were in that spellbook (their "spells known") as that allows them to prepare spells from another wizard's spellbook and write those spells directly into a new spellbook.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Bandw2 wrote:
my way of understanding it is you require the ability to "if you had an open spell slot, the ability to prepare or cast said spell".

+1

Liberty's Edge

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


I don't think the intention was to allow a first-level wizard to take this feat, so I think A is right out, as well. At a minimum, it would need to be A1: Magic jar needs to be on my spell list at a level that I can cast.

Further to previous, I think A1 (as above) trumps B (in my spellbook).

The reason being, feats are eternal, spellbooks are ephemeral.

If I have magic jar in my spellbook, and someone steals it or sunders it or burns it, have I just lost the feat? I would argue no,.... which means not-B.

A.1.1

Magic jar needs to be on my spell list at a level that I can cast and I must have learned it at some point in my career.

A spellcaster can't cast a spell he hasn't learned and the prerequisite is the ability to cast.

And we still have the problem of a sorcerer that has taed it away for another spell after learning the feat. I would say that he lose access to the feat.

Orfamay Quest wrote:


.... which would be very odd/unusual. I can't think of any other magical feats offhand that can be turned off by a sunder maneuver.

Not magical feats, but:

- Power attack when you get strength 13+ thanks to your belt of giant strength
- Combat Expertise when you get intelligence 13+ thanks to your headband of vast intelligence
and a few other feats.

Another corner case:
- a cleric that follow a divinity with a domain that give him magic jar and that change the divinity he follows, or simply retain his domain selection can lose permanently access to the spell and tush to the feat.


Okay, I've found the text of Scouting Summons so with that in mind, I will say that in order to use it, you need to either have Magic Jar in your list of "Spells Known", in your "Witch's Familiar", in your "spellbook" or in your "formula book", or in any other similar class feature as the case may be. It being on your "Spell List" is not enough unless you were talking about a class like Cleric which gains easy access to its entire spell list each day. Magic Jar not being a Cleric spell makes that a moot point, but for future reference concerning other such feat requirements…

Grand Lodge

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Glewistee wrote:

So, in the Monster Summoners Handbook, the Feat Scouting Summons (Metamagic) states;

Scouting Summons (Metamagic) said wrote:
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (conjuration), ability to cast magic jar.

So, for my wizard, does this mean

A - Magic Jar needs to be on my spell list.
or
B - Magic Jar needs to be in my spellbook
or B1 - I need to have memorized Magic Jar that day.
I believe the answer is A, but it might be B. B1 is, as they say, right out.
I don't think the intention was to allow a first-level wizard to take this feat, so I think A is right out, as well. At a minimum, it would need to be A1: Magic jar needs to be on my spell list at a level that I can cast.

And I have to have a high enough casting stat (Int, Cha, whatever) to cast spells of that level. (just in case that wasn't clear)


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1. I am a wizard.

2. I want to take the Scouting Summons feat as my next feat.

3. I need to have the ability to cast magic jar.

4. As a wizard, I cannot cast magic jar, even if I own a spellbook with the spell in it, unless I'm at least 9th level.

4. If I do not have magic jar in my spellbook, or at least a spellbook, then I cannot prepare and cast magic jar, even if I am 9th level.

5. Therefore, in order to take this feat, I must be a wizard of at least 9th level with magic jar in a spellbook from which I can prepare spells.

5a. If I want to utilize this feat, then I need to be able to cast a spell that summons a single creature, which I can then possess "as per magic jar (but with no receptacle necessary)."

Gaining the feat seems straightforward enough. However, the wording of the use of the feat is a bit unclear. It seems to say that you can possess the summoned creature without actually casting magic jar, rather than saying you can cast magic jar on the creature without using a receptacle.


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Cuuniyevo wrote:
Okay, I've found the text of Scouting Summons so with that in mind, I will say that in order to use it, you need to either have Magic Jar in your list of "Spells Known", in your "Witch's Familiar", in your "spellbook" or in your "formula book", or in any other similar class feature as the case may be. It being on your "Spell List" is not enough unless you were talking about a class like Cleric which gains easy access to its entire spell list each day. Magic Jar not being a Cleric spell makes that a moot point, but for future reference concerning other such feat requirements…

I am a 1st level witch, but have 5th level spells in my familiar. I share spells with another higher level witch, and make the needed spellcraft to add the spell. This way, we back up each others spells.

Change it to: in your spellbook, and you can cast the spell should you prepare it, or as a spell known and you have a slot that can cast it.

That lets sorcerers with spell pages count, but only if of sufficient level.

/cevah

Sczarni

Sounds similar to the prerequisites for entering into the Diabolist Prestige Class.

People were using UMD on scrolls to get early access (or access at all, for non-spellcasters).

The loophole was closed by clarifying that you need to be able to cast the spell required using your own spell slots.

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