Magic Altars (from Inner Sea Gods): Can I mount it on the back of a wagon?


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 52 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

So I recently discovered the Magic Altars from Inner Sea Gods this evening from the Archives of Nethys (I don't know how I missed those earlier, I've owned the actual book for like two years at least...) and frankly, I think it's a really cool concept, and one my Oracle of Life, a devotee of Sarenrae in my Kingmaker game, will enjoy.

However, something got me thinking: how neat would it be to have said Altar of Sarenrae, instead of hiding in a church, be mounted on the back of a wagon, similar to the True Cross the crusaders had a the Battle of Hattin in 1187 CE, or the Caroccio Standards of Venice and Milan?

However, this little bit came up from Inner Sea Gods:

"An altar is always fixed in place; it cannot be moved without losing its magical abilities. Most altars are secured to the floor, and a successful DC 25 Strength check is required to uproot or move them (or a higher DC, depending on their size and weight)."

I know this may be munchkin-ing quite a lot, but does the altar count as moving if it's secured to a wagon?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think you know the answer before asking.

Grand Lodge

You want a banner, instead.

Grand Lodge

The closest you're going to get to being able to mechanically do this is to stick the altar inside a demiplane with a portable entrance.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you from putting an altar to Sarenrae in the back of the wagon for proselytizing on the go, you just won't get the Magic Altar benefit.


Could you put one on a ship?


Splendor wrote:
Could you put one on a ship?

That's also a good point. I guess the question is how big of a something does the altar need to be bolted to before it counts as stationary, even if the object it's bolted to isn't?

Cavall wrote:
I think you know the answer before asking.

I'll agree the wagon is a stretch, but Splendor raises a good point. Is an altar on a ship considered stationary?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

The answer is... no, doesn't work. It's a cool thought, and would be worth a houserule, but no. Not on a ship, not on a wagon, not in a backpack.


Given the purpose of the altars is to provide a benefit to a community in return for their worship, mobility is the number one thing that shouldn't be allowed. The benefits of an altar cease the moment you leave the community, so it's clear they're not intended to be mobile.

Mounting on ship, a wagon, a gryphon, or a magic carpet is circumventing the roleplay purpose behind these things.


A community on a floating island would likely benefit from a magic altar, even if the latitude/longitude of that island (and therefore altar) is changing. Moving the altar relative to the community it is supposed to support is what should be identified as invalid.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Not on a boat. Not on a goat. Not on a train. Not on a (mobile) demiplane.


I would be on the fence about having it on a ship...

Anything smaller, absolutely not, but a ship... maybe.

For a deity like Besmara (deals with the sea, and pirates)-probably yes.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would allow it on a sailing ship or larger vessel. After all, it is secured to the floor and isn't moving from that spot.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

By the rules, no, no mounting it on a ship or wagon. There has to be something that gives a fixed holy location a bonus.

You could house rule in portable altars that have lesser effects, or are relic-class holy items that provide the benefits even while moving (think Ark of the Covenant-class mythic stuff).

But no, the basic altars do not move, period. Arguing a ship or wagon is semantics, unless you can move the equivalent of an entire temple (such as a moving island or cloud island or flying mountain or such), it doesn't work.

==Aelryinth


FLite wrote:
Not on a boat. Not on a goat. Not on a train. Not on a (mobile) demiplane.

Not in a wagon, not on a dragon, not even a tiny one on your flagon.

No ships either. If it won't work on one type of vehicle transport why would it on another.

You COULD have a Besmara one on a ship as a role playing aspect. But that's theme. Not rules. But if that helps you make a fun plot point, that's cool.

Grand Lodge

Except there is no Besmara altar. (Okay, yes, the GM could make one up.)

Mechanically, an altar on a ship is closer to a banner, and should be priced accordingly.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Dietrich von Sachsen wrote:


I know this may be munchkin-ing quite a lot, but does the altar count as moving if it's secured to a wagon?

not in relation to what it is secured to.

space is relative.

i hate immovable rods. you're on a train, it's going to not move relative to the train.


How about in a castle on the back of a Zaratan?

Floating citadel?

Colossal Animated Object made out of a cathedral?

How big does something need to be before it is considered "big enough to consecrate as a permanent holy site?"

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Big enough to be a holy site, and not be considered carried by a vehicle.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cavall wrote:
FLite wrote:
Not on a boat. Not on a goat. Not on a train. Not on a (mobile) demiplane.

Not in a wagon, not on a dragon, not even a tiny one on your flagon.

No ships either. If it won't work on one type of vehicle transport why would it on another.

You COULD have a Besmara one on a ship as a role playing aspect. But that's theme. Not rules. But if that helps you make a fun plot point, that's cool.

Thing is Besmara simply doesn't give a damm about churches or altars.. or for that matter much in formal worship. You sacrifice some treasure and rum by throwing it overboard and that pretty much summs up formal Besmaran worship.


Except for the formal worship sites she has, you'd be correct. One of which is a ship.

And yes, FLite I know she doesn't. Which is why you can make one up for the sake of story. You can make up anything for the sake of story, and adventure paths are resplendent with rules being bent to have something nifty.

I will stay again you normally couldn't have a mobile worship place. Just offering an example of one that may work for a GM to add. Flavor.

Grand Lodge

Cavall wrote:

Except for the formal worship sites she has, you'd be correct. One of which is a ship.

And yes, FLite I know she doesn't. Which is why you can make one up for the sake of story. You can make up anything for the sake of story, and adventure paths are resplendent with rules being bent to have something nifty.

Yup. I was agreeing with that. I was just also saying the nifty should be reflected in the price :)


I wouldn't really have a "cost" so much as it would be for npc's per say. Basically exists because I wanted to.

Really that's the only reason it would work. Because She allows it. Just as much as take it away.

Sorry got Besmara on the brain. Skull and shackles campaign currently.


Cavall wrote:
FLite wrote:
Not on a boat. Not on a goat. Not on a train. Not on a (mobile) demiplane.
Not in a wagon, not on a dragon, not even a tiny one on your flagon.

:D Thank you for that. I think you two win the Excellence in Intertubes award...


You know planets are mobile. They actually move very fast.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
fictionfan wrote:
You know planets are mobile. They actually move very fast.

lol. Exactly. Where does one draw the line? That is the question!


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

IT IS ALL RELATIVE!

Grand Lodge

That depends. Is golarion a sun centric system? It is a fictional fantasy world. It could very well be a fixed immobile planet with a sun a mere one mile across that travels across the sky.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
FLite wrote:
That depends. Is golarion a sun centric system? It is a fictional fantasy world. It could very well be a fixed immobile planet with a sun a mere one mile across that travels across the sky.

yes there are even known other planets in the system.

though a great many wizards live on the sun...

Liberty's Edge

okay, but surely we can agree the sun is stationary. and it's associated with sarenrae, so win-win?


A ship is a community, it could conceivably even be a holy sight.


Its a common practice in Japan and throughout Europe that altars are diplayed and put on parade around a community during holidays. Of course this doesn't mean that the altar is always mounted on a wagon and moved about the country - that is kind of munchkin idea, game-wise. I'm not saying the mechanics allow for that, but just saying, that many cultures do indeed lug around altars that are temporarily mounted on wagons and paraded around town - it does happen.


Holy sight is what paladins have.


He meant holy site.


Yes. I know.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I was really correcting him, not you... ;)


gamer-printer wrote:
Its a common practice in Japan and throughout Europe that altars are diplayed and put on parade around a community during holidays. Of course this doesn't mean that the altar is always mounted on a wagon and moved about the country - that is kind of munchkin idea, game-wise. I'm not saying the mechanics allow for that, but just saying, that many cultures do indeed lug around altars that are temporarily mounted on wagons and paraded around town - it does happen.

There is nothing preventing you from doing that. Only it won't be magical anymore.

Real world analogies mean nothing in a game were magic is real. It's clearly a balance issue and that's the balance point. Magic bonus that's immobile.


gamer-printer wrote:
I was really correcting him, not you... ;)

I understand. Just being a goof.


Cavall wrote:

There is nothing preventing you from doing that. Only it won't be magical anymore.

Real world analogies mean nothing in a game were magic is real.

Except that Japan was a country that did believe magic existed, at least at the time these cultural traits were founded. As included in my published Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), the imperial governement of Japan had a Ministry of Onmyodo, which was essentially the academy of magic. While we could agree that their magic probably wasn't real, they believed it was. So why should a practice like moving altars around on wagons for parades, in a society that believed it was indeed magic - not be considered a factor since it was reality and not fantasy.

I think real world analogies should be always considered (I always consider them in my games), because the Japanese (at least) clearly believed it did have a positive magical purpose, and was why they did it...

There are many other possible ways of balancing such a rule, than the choice that was made by Paizo.

Fantasy doesn't exist in a vaccuum, most fantasy is based on some historical reality, even if its folklore.


Belief in magic versus actually having magic exist and creating clear rules for a balance point are different.

I get the point you're trying to make but the system was made to keep it from being mobile for a reason. A "system" that doesn't exist in our world because it's not actually real, faith or not.

There may have been other ways. This was the way they chose and it's a question of the rules in place, not in the home brew. So that's clearly defined. If you've got a few suggestions certainly bring them up, (I did with the idea of an NPC besmara ship) but in the end it's clear what the rules are.


While certainly 3PP, clearly I've created published rules before that defied what Paizo may have ruled previously. There is never really only one choice in Pathfinder.


Cavall wrote:
Yes. I know.

I sure did. I am pretty particular about my word choice and made a mistake in my quick remark; certainly your interjection was helpful for everyone.

Also it'd be nice if the edit function worked longer for quick typos like this.


It was a joke. Calm down pal.


Cavall wrote:
It was a joke. Calm down pal.

It was obnoxious, and there's probably nothing more obnoxious than being obnoxious and then saying it's a joke and telling someone to calm down. But I am okay being done here.


Or don't calm down. Either or. Just a play on words from a typo. You're taking things personal. I said it was a joke before that. But I'm glad we are moving on.


Declaring a magical altar is intended to benefit a community and then restricting the altar in such a manner that certain types of communities [a community entirely housed on a large ship, or perhaps a community of travelers (nomadic shepherds for example, or perhaps something more Gypsie style) for examples] is rather silly.

That aside... I can't seem to find the duration of these Altar-worship boons, am I missing it somewhere?


24 hours


I would make allowances in certain circumstances for altars:

Besmara altar on a large ship? Sure. Besmara altar on a folding boat? Big bag of NOPE on that.

I wouldn't blindly hand-wave and say altars are now portable. The bonuses can be pretty good, and having a party just carry something around like that is potentially unbalancing.

The situations where an altar could move would be rare, I would think, and only allowed if it made sense, like the example with Besmara.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:

I would be on the fence about having it on a ship...

Anything smaller, absolutely not, but a ship... maybe.

For a deity like Besmara (deals with the sea, and pirates)-probably yes.

Not even for Besmara. A Besmaran altar would be located in a pirate's hangout, or a pirate town, but not on a ship, because again... it's not a fixed location, but a vehicle.

Also, altars and even temples simply aren't a priority for Besmaran worship, which is lip service most of the time and the most formal it generally gets is some grog or (rarely) a tithe of treasure tossed over the side.

Seamen in general, pirates in particualr, simply aren't that pious a bunch, not even for her.


LazarX wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I would be on the fence about having it on a ship...

Anything smaller, absolutely not, but a ship... maybe.

For a deity like Besmara (deals with the sea, and pirates)-probably yes.

Not even for Besmara. A Besmaran altar would be located in a pirate's hangout, or a pirate town, but not on a ship, because again... it's not a fixed location, but a vehicle.

Also, altars and even temples simply aren't a priority for Besmaran worship, which is lip service most of the time and the most formal it generally gets is some grog or (rarely) a tithe of treasure tossed over the side.

Seamen in general, pirates in particualr, simply aren't that pious a bunch, not even for her.

*shrugs* I'm just saying what I would allow as a GM, not trying to say it should be allowed by the rules.

I'm currently playing a character that worships, and gains spells, from Besmara, so at least SOME people are pious worshippers :P


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Declaring a magical altar is intended to benefit a community and then restricting the altar in such a manner that certain types of communities [a community entirely housed on a large ship, or perhaps a community of travelers (nomadic shepherds for example, or perhaps something more Gypsie style) for examples] is rather silly.

That aside... I can't seem to find the duration of these Altar-worship boons, am I missing it somewhere?

From Inner Sea Gods:

"A worshiper of an altar’s deity may stand, sit, kneel, or lie prostrate within 10 feet of the altar and speak a prayer to gain a temporary blessing from the altar (treat this as speaking a command word to activate a magic item). The effect of this blessing is described in the individual altar entries. Unless otherwise specified, this blessing ends after 24 hours (or earlier, if dispelled or ended by the actions of the worshiper). The altar can provide its blessing only once per creature per day."

(Emphasis Mine).

1 to 50 of 52 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Magic Altars (from Inner Sea Gods): Can I mount it on the back of a wagon? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.