Pathfinder needs a fully detailed City


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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One problem that the Vigilante class has is the lack of a suitable milieu to exist in. I mean what every major gaming system has always had at some point: a fully detailed city. Not a gazetteer but a complete volume including a sand box adventure, tie-ins to other adventures, a website to submit home brewed modules, memorable npcs, a spin-off adventure path (not included of course) and appendices with urban specific spells, feats, new skill usages, a few monsters and a prestige class or two. Yep. A 120$ book. Here's where a Paizo staff member says, "Well, that's just not in our plans." It should be. Don't need a Bestiary 6. Definitely don't need a Pathfinder 2 (are you bozos insane?). You need Absalom: City of Ultimate Adventure.


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You could start with Freeport.

Ruyan.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Sandpoint is pretty detailed. As are Korvosa and Magnimar. And by this time next year, Kintargo is gonna be pretty detailed. Westrcrown's pretty well covered as well.

A big hardcover book of a city would indeed be awesome, but fitting that into a schedule is tricksy.


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I would be happy to pay good money for, "Absalom, it's pretty sweet" the hardback.


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Check out Parsantium.


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City State of the Invincible Overlord.

The first, and still great. Necromancer Games published a D&D 3.5 version of it (now at frogged games.com)


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pachristian wrote:

City State of the Invincible Overlord.

The first, and still great. Necromancer Games published a D&D 3.5 version of it (now at frogged games.com)

Yeah Bro I ran an epic adventure in 2nd ed City State years ago-it was the best campaign we ever did; lasted like 3 real-life years.


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James Jacobs wrote:

Sandpoint is pretty detailed. As are Korvosa and Magnimar. And by this time next year, Kintargo is gonna be pretty detailed. Westrcrown's pretty well covered as well.

A big hardcover book of a city would indeed be awesome, but fitting that into a schedule is tricksy.

Yeah Man I learned about your guys schedule this year at PaizoCon. Kinda brutal but worth it. I believe it would be a content-creating machine; with the different neighborhoods and people from all over Golarion coming for trade and whatever agendas. You could have a PFS season and a plane-hopping AP that begins and ends in the city. Instead of 'Pathfinder 2' we need an 'Ultimate Homebrew' packed with advice from the experts plus a bunch of home rule suggestions to help peeps sculpt their games; the rule suggestions could be requested and then refined instead of a playtest.


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I would really love a book all about a city that is really in depth. I loved me some Sharn: city of Towers...My best GM'ed Campaign.

Liberty's Edge

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Korvosa. The Guide to Korvosa is some of Paizo's best setting material. A vigilante character would be perfect for the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP too.


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Personally I'd love to see that book done for Kaer Maga, which is a really unique city with all the ruins below it.


The Campaign Setting books contain enough information for the imaginative DM to run an endless sandbox. There are so many ideas in the Kaer Maga, Magnimar and Absolam books that it would take an entire campaign to exhaust them.

I wouldn't be opposed to a massive box set city expansion - but the question is - which city? NO matter which one they choose, inevitably half the people will say "why this one instead of ___________?"


Brother Fen wrote:

The Campaign Setting books contain enough information for the imaginative DM to run an endless sandbox. There are so many ideas in the Kaer Maga, Magnimar and Absolam books that it would take an entire campaign to exhaust them.

I wouldn't be opposed to a massive box set city expansion - but the question is - which city? NO matter which one they choose, inevitably half the people will say "why this one instead of ___________?"

I know. But people are going to say "when are they going to do X?" one way or another anyway. I hope you're not suggesting that there are too many cool cities to choose from-so no hard bound (or box set; cool!) city book at all.


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No. I was just saying there's a lot of information out there to build your own box set in the meantime. I've been supplementing my cities with third party drop ins to flesh things out when necessary.

Browsing the forums, it seems like a lot of people would support a Sandpoint box. Personally, I'd rather see one set in Kaer Maga as I find it to be the most fascinating city in Golarion.


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Dave Setty wrote:
Korvosa. The Guide to Korvosa is some of Paizo's best setting material. A vigilante character would be perfect for the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP too.

And there already is a canonical vigilante character in Korvosa known as Blackjack!

Between the Guide to Korvosa and the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, Korvosa is probably the most-detailed city in the setting.

And Magnimar isn't all that far behind.

Liberty's Edge

I think it would be Nice to have a Guide Series done for Smaller Cities..

Information like what is Presented in The Dragon's Demand about Belhaim..I would snatch them up...Adventures and Adventure paths are okay but kinda expensive to buy just for Cities..

Sovereign Court

I disagree that the cities need to be detailed anymore than they have been. I don't want a book or guide that tells me everything about a city, because I want to plant my own plot hooks and locations that add to the existing canon.

I ran a campaign from levels 1-10 out of Absalom using The Guide To Absalom as a reference guide and for the odd bit of information, but I think more than that would have made it restrictive. I think what we have available is ideal, and while a thick tome dedicated to a city would be interesting, I can honestly say I likely wouldn't use that city.

Liberty's Edge

Haladir wrote:
Dave Setty wrote:
Korvosa. The Guide to Korvosa is some of Paizo's best setting material. A vigilante character would be perfect for the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP too.

And there already is a canonical vigilante character in Korvosa known as Blackjack!

Between the Guide to Korvosa and the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, Korvosa is probably the most-detailed city in the setting.

And Magnimar isn't all that far behind.

Seconding Korvosa. That's essentially what Sepherum is describing, except split across a dozen books. In total, those books probably cost less than $120 :v


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I'd like to see a city box set as another attempt at a mega-dungeon. That's why Kaer Maga would be the perfect setting for it.


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JPSTOD wrote:

I think it would be Nice to have a Guide Series done for Smaller Cities..

Information like what is Presented in The Dragon's Demand about Belhaim..I would snatch them up...Adventures and Adventure paths are okay but kinda expensive to buy just for Cities..

Have you seen Cities of Golarion?

It's a very underrated sourcebook, in my opinion. I really liked it (and the similar Towns of the Inner Sea).

Nothing beats a box set though. Shame about the economics... :(


Add one more voice to the those wishing for an in-depth sourcebook for a city. I actually don't care as much which one, but tying it into a city-based AP (either already published or new) makes a lot of sense. Ptolus is a good model in my mind.

While I understand those saying that the material Paizo has already released allows for one's imagination to fill in the rest, for me at least this would still be a lot of work. I love playing the game but have very little prep time available. Detailed sourcebooks can really cut this down.

Silver Crusade Contributor

roysier wrote:
Personally I'd love to see that book done for Kaer Maga, which is a really unique city with all the ruins below it.

Might need an update, but...

Silver Crusade Contributor

James Jacobs wrote:

Sandpoint is pretty detailed. As are Korvosa and Magnimar. And by this time next year, Kintargo is gonna be pretty detailed. Westcrown's pretty well covered as well.

A big hardcover book of a city would indeed be awesome, but fitting that into a schedule is tricksy.

I have to disagree about Westcrown, unfortunately. In my opinion, it really needed a Guide to Korvosa-style book - the AP itself left the city disappointingly under-detailed.

I'm really hoping that the upcoming Year of Cheliax fills it in a bit more... although, unfortunately, I'm not expecting to see a Westcrown-specific book.

Liberty's Edge

Kalindlara wrote:
roysier wrote:
Personally I'd love to see that book done for Kaer Maga, which is a really unique city with all the ruins below it.
Might need an update, but...

While City of Strangers is certainly a fantastic book that inspires the imagination, I think the OP was asking that Paizo publish a book a few hundred pages in length detailing a city with locations, characters and plot hooks in minute detail, along with a possible Mega Dungeons. Something along the lines of City State of the Invincible Overlord, Rapan Athuk, or The Slumbering Tsar Saga. Personally, I'd be happy with something the length and detail of the Zobeck Gazetteer.

As many have commented, Kaer Maga seems tailor-made for both a detailed city overview along with a mega dungeon. I always loved the very City-of-Sigil feel of Kaer Maga, and it would be great if they would flesh it out even more.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

And don't forget Waterdeep...

That started off as just part of a Forgotten Realms expansion (FR1: Waterdeep and the North). This was followed by a boxed set with no less than 10 maps. Later on Waterdeep got not only its own boxed set for AD&D but also a hardback for V3.5.

Sczarni

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Remember at this point Kaer Maga has gotten a lot of pages:

Spoiler:
*City of Strangers, (64 pages)
*An AP fiction in the Eando Kilne story (1 section)
*An Ap adventure in the Shattered star AP (AP #63), and another one that touches it (in the crimson throne AP)
*At least two PFS scenarios set there (City of strangers series)
*2 Novels with a good amount of the book set there (Redemption Engine and Lord of Runes)
*smaller write ups in the Varisia book and the hardcover campaign setting books

So there is a good amount of information there.

If you're looking for a more in depth than this, have you read all of the information? Are you looking for this all in one spot? If so, I suggest that you head over to The wiki. If you see official information that isn't there on the city; The project is open, add it. Then you'll have all of the information in one place like you ask for.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I always like the section of DMG II from DnD 3.5 that detailed Saltmarsh. It might not have been hundreds of pages long but it did a good job of detailing a city with several shadowy elements for you to make a campaign around.

Liberty's Edge

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Cpt_kirstov wrote:

Remember at this point Kaer Maga has gotten a lot of pages:

** spoiler omitted **

If you're looking for a more in depth than this, have you read all of the information? Are you looking for this all in one spot? If so, I suggest that you head over to The wiki. If you see official information that isn't there on the city; The project is open, add it. Then you'll have all of the information in one place like you ask for.

I'd say wikis and working from a patchwork of various adventures can only go so far. What makes huge city book compendiums such a pleasure to read is that they are (usually) well written by professional RPG authors who are intimately familiar with the setting; they contain a wealth of locations and interesting NPCs that tie into one another; they have detailed maps that allow the GM to more easily plan appropriate and interesting role-playing encounters depending on which part of the city they are located in; and often they have a fantastic amount of plot hooks for campaign ideas. Best of all, everything is compiled together by the authors, so a GM need look no further than the book.


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Cpt_kirstov wrote:

Remember at this point Kaer Maga has gotten a lot of pages:

** spoiler omitted **

If you're looking for a more in depth than this, have you read all of the information? Are you looking for this all in one spot? If so, I suggest that you head over to The wiki. If you see official information that isn't there on the city; The project is open, add it. Then you'll have all of the information in one place like you ask for.

If you're directing this to me, I first answered by saying I have enough material to run infinite adventures there as with any city with a proper campaign setting book dedicated to it. My response is still above.

In the spirit of the thread, I voted that I would want a Kaer Maga box because it's my favorite setting.

And in answer to "have you read" - yes, I've read them all with the exception of Lord of Runes. I did not know Kaer Maga was featured in it, so thanks for the heads up.

Sovereign Court

Sepherum wrote:
pachristian wrote:

City State of the Invincible Overlord.

The first, and still great. Necromancer Games published a D&D 3.5 version of it (now at frogged games.com)

Yeah Bro I ran an epic adventure in 2nd ed City State years ago-it was the best campaign we ever did; lasted like 3 real-life years.

I too have fond memories of the City State...

particularly because the GM put casinos in the Goblin Reservation. Many good times, there!


Cpt_kirstov wrote:

Remember at this point Kaer Maga has gotten a lot of pages:

Spoiler:
*City of Strangers, (64 pages)
*An AP fiction in the Eando Kilne story (1 section)
*An Ap adventure in the Shattered star AP (AP #63), and another one that touches it (in the crimson throne AP)
*At least two PFS scenarios set there (City of strangers series)
*2 Novels with a good amount of the book set there (Redemption Engine and Lord of Runes)
*smaller write ups in the Varisia book and the hardcover campaign setting books

If you're looking for a more in depth than this, have you read all of the information? Are you looking for this all in one spot? If so, I suggest that you head over to The wiki. If you see official information that isn't there on the city; The project is open, add it. Then you'll have all of the information in one place like you ask for.

And don't forget...

Spoiler:
The module Seven Swords of Sin (where Kaer Maga was introduced)
the PFS Scenario Feast of Sigils
There are also some mentions of Kaer Maga in the Players Companion books Varisia: Birthplace of Legends and Halflings of Golarion

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Did you all miss The Godsmouth Heresy? I'm disappointed in you all. ^_^

Sczarni

Brother Fen wrote:


If you're directing this to me

Nope, wasn't specifically at you - and so you know Lord of Runes has between 5 to 7 chapters set there. Its also got lots of other great information about goings on in Korvosa and some history of Varisia that isn't anywhere else

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Now I have an urge to run a Curse of the Crimson Throne game with a whole party of Vigilantes (one of each specialization).


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I should mention that I took on the task of doing a massive city campaign myself in 2013-all of my own design. Complete with a large scale map, full history, over 130 locations fully detailed, npcs, monsters of my own design, guilds, political organizations, inns, businesses, shops, armories, street gangs and a sand box adventure with tons of side quests. For life reasons we had to stop after about 3 months but I will revisit it someday. It was great and a lot, I mean a LOT of work and it felt like homework every week as well. I would purchase such a product from Paizo especially in a heartbeat.


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I'd vote for Absalom, just because I think it has the most potential to make a really solid hardcover.


MMCJawa wrote:
I'd vote for Absalom, just because I think it has the most potential to make a really solid hardcover.

It was also the worst served by a 64 page sourcebook, imo. There just wasnt enough room.


For those interested in smaller village or town write ups checkout Raging Swan Press. They have a series of products detailing villages and towns with annual collections of those published.

Liberty's Edge

Products like these are for those without plenty time on their hands and limited imaginations..

Source books are mainly for those who don't want to have to flesh out a Hamlet, Thorpe, Village or what ever size city, and the Document it.

Will look into Raging Swan Press..


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First off I aplogise if there are typos in this post, I'm working off my phone. That said, I would actually love to see a hardback Absalom with;

1) A more detailed look at its government structure, including at least names for all of the high council seats. This isn't the decimverate people, what those roles are and who fills them should be common knowledge in arguably the most important city in the inner sea.

2) A map with a scale that fits. People who've lurked these forums long enough should remember at least one thread where James had to chime in on the disparity in scale between the latest map and the first given population density at the time.

3) A working setup for doing arena fights in the Iorium, give us something to at least mold to our liking if not outright use to go along with that tasty morsel from the inner sea combat faction.

4) I seem to recall somewhere long ago a mention about a perhaps mythic Gyr. I would love to see this happen with a full stat write-up.

5) Maybe an adventure playing with the political shadow war to slake the thirst of our cloak & dagger / rp happy groups.

6) For that matter why not do a line of stand alone modules each to show off a diffrent section of the city. You started this once long ago. Did those two modules not sell well?

7) speaking of hangman's noose could be a great way to start in on a kingdom building / downtime heavy campaign where the players must rebuild precipice quarter and become it's council.

8) Wet our tongues some more about the starstone. Outside of a mythic snipit that well has been so dry for such a long time it's bleeding dire dust mite army units by now.

9) Give us army units for Absalom for people who want to stage a new siege of Absalom.

10) Full actual city stats for that matter, latest one is missing a population breakdown btw. Also, given that more and more new city qualities keep piping up, might be nice to give Absalom a unique one of its own.

11) Bust out with your Occult Mysteries and give us one or two NPCs that DMs know for a fact are veiled masters.

12) Detailed floor plans for the Forae Logos, Azlanti Keep, Irorium, and Pathfinder Lodge.

13) For the mage school fans give us a write-up on the Arcanamirium. There are precious few fully fleshed out mage schools we can rip off out there. I would love to see it get its due.

14) more notes on local festivals, I feel like there would be a number of these within a city so large and so old.

15) more NPCs/places to flesh the districts out. I would expect to find an NPC of just about every class in Absalom.

I guess the big point is, Paizo has unleashed a whole lot of extra flavor / optional systems and classes over the years and Absalom seems the perfect place for them all to come to light. A new book embracing this would give tons of options for DMs/players and in no way would it prevent DMs from adding custom content. Even with a Ptolus sized book there would still be buildings left unfilled, entire streats even. This city is just too big to fill in all the cracks. So I say embrace the system and it's natural evolution and make Absalom a cornerstone piece showing off how all these things can come together and be part of a greater whole. No game should require all the extra rules and subsystems but every game should allow for them if the Dms/players wish to use them. Give us a city of passion, of political integue, of roaring stadiums, lost urban ruins, magical academies, adventuring guilds, clashing armies, and more, then let us choose which of those stories we want to tell/experience.


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James Jacobs wrote:

Sandpoint is pretty detailed. As are Korvosa and Magnimar. And by this time next year, Kintargo is gonna be pretty detailed. Westrcrown's pretty well covered as well.

A big hardcover book of a city would indeed be awesome, but fitting that into a schedule is tricksy.

I'd even go for a hardcover about a country. Each city getting a map, several pages (or more). It's something that I feel is really missing from the setting. Yeah, I know we're free to make our own details, but I feel like the world could use this stuff.


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Lurion Coravoss wrote:

First off I aplogise if there are typos in this post, I'm working off my phone. That said, I would actually love to see a hardback Absalom with;

1) A more detailed look at its government structure, including at least names for all of the high council seats. This isn't the decimverate people, what those roles are and who fills them should be common knowledge in arguably the most important city in the inner sea.

2) A map with a scale that fits. People who've lurked these forums long enough should remember at least one thread where James had to chime in on the disparity in scale between the latest map and the first given population density at the time.

3) A working setup for doing arena fights in the Iorium, give us something to at least mold to our liking if not outright use to go along with that tasty morsel from the inner sea combat faction.

4) I seem to recall somewhere long ago a mention about a perhaps mythic Gyr. I would love to see this happen with a full stat write-up.

5) Maybe an adventure playing with the political shadow war to slake the thirst of our cloak & dagger / rp happy groups.

6) For that matter why not do a line of stand alone modules each to show off a diffrent section of the city. You started this once long ago. Did those two modules not sell well?

7) speaking of hangman's noose could be a great way to start in on a kingdom building / downtime heavy campaign where the players must rebuild precipice quarter and become it's council.

8) Wet our tongues some more about the starstone. Outside of a mythic snipit that well has been so dry for such a long time it's bleeding dire dust mite army units by now.

9) Give us army units for Absalom for people who want to stage a new siege of Absalom.

10) Full actual city stats for that matter, latest one is missing a population breakdown btw. Also, given that more and more new city qualities keep piping up, might be nice to give Absalom a unique one of its own.

11) Bust out with your Occult Mysteries and give us one or two...

...Right on. Myself, I would like to see an AP that began in Absalom in book I, then went plane-hopping to the strange places that never get any treatment for 4 modules, then came back to the City in book VI where the bozo who gave us the original mission betrays the PCs or somesuch.


As for Absalom there are many dungeons around it, so people who want a mega dungeon space have a area that fits.

As for a AP, I thought the 3 first 3 installments of Curse of the Crimson throne based in Korovas were excellent. Something along those lines but done with Pathfidner rules.

Paizo likes to put out products that help sell other products. So, something in Varisia which has far more products I think would be far more likely then Absalom.


If I had complete control to pick one city for this book, I would choose Daggermark. This city is the most interesting to me. I know it will never happen but throwing it out there.


I personally love the level of detail from Cities of Golarion. I would welcome a Cities of Golarion II detailing some of the other interesting cities like Quantium in Nex.


Thanael wrote:
Check out Parsantium.

I wanted to post a link to Parsantium: City of the Crossroads. It's a fully detailed PFSRD city with lots of detail and supplemental material. Check out the review too.

There's also 0one Games The Great City which is detailed in several source books and supplements and is the setting for their Urban AP:The Road to Revolution. which would probably be great for a Vigilante.


pachristian wrote:

City State of the Invincible Overlord.

The first, and still great. Necromancer Games published a D&D 3.5 version of it (now at frogged games.com)

Iirc they did a Kickstarter to convert it to PFRPG...

kickstarter campaign CSIO
Their website: judges guild.org


I would give a rib away for a Sandpoint-Sandbox-Box!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Kadasbrass Loreweaver wrote:
I always like the section of DMG II from DnD 3.5 that detailed Saltmarsh. It might not have been hundreds of pages long but it did a good job of detailing a city with several shadowy elements for you to make a campaign around.

YAY!

As the one who wrote that section, it's always cool to see folks remember it! I quite love how it turned out, and wish more folks knew about it. :-)

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