nogoodscallywag |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If a PC is grappled by an enemy, and wants to use one hand to put into his pocket and put on a ring, what sort of action is this? Does it take two hands to don a ring? Or does a Slight of Hand or Dex check need to be made in order for the PC to don the ring with one hand in his pocket while grappled?
nogoodscallywag |
The issue here is that grapple doesn't allow anything for the PC to do with BOTH hands...which is why the PC is trying to put one hand in pocket and put in the ring. It would, in my opinion, be a move action at least; but would the action need to be done via sleight of hand or just work automatically, thus donning the ring on.
It's quite important actually. The PC is grappled by a larger creature but the ring is a Freedom of Movement ring, which will let him escape next round.
Archaeik |
This doesn't really seem to be covered in the rules.
Assuming the ring is in a readily accessible place and not buried in a pack somewhere, retrieval should be a move action that provokes (although it's unlikely the controlling grappler can take one).
Equipping it should be a standard that does not provoke.(instead of a move to equip and a standard to activate, simply the act of putting it on should activate the ring -- this shifts the action from "manipulate" to "activate" by my reading)
This gold ring allows the wearer to act as if continually under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.
The real question is "how many hands?", this is what's not directly covered.
Common sense indicates most people usually use both hands to put on a ring. But we also know it's not impossible to do it 1 handed under the right circumstances, such as using a pocket for leverage. So I think you're right that this would be a Dex check that reasonably falls under Sleight of Hand if you're trained.
That said, if the character's pockets(or wherever it's stored) are particularly full, it's probably worth assigning an appropriate penalty.
If you're feeling generous, that penalty might only be having it take longer to find the correct item in the pocket instead of increasing the DC (which potentially makes the action fail many times, achieving the same effect). However, this would further be complicated if said pocket contains multiple ring shaped objects -- would he be able to determine the right one by feel? etc.
Orfamay Quest |
If a PC is grappled by an enemy, and wants to use one hand to put into his pocket and put on a ring, what sort of action is this? Does it take two hands to don a ring? Or does a Slight of Hand or Dex check need to be made in order for the PC to don the ring with one hand in his pocket while grappled?
I just put a ring in my pocket and put it on with one hand. I even used my non-primary hand. So I can attest from personal experience that it only takes one hand to don a ring.
I don't see any notation in the grapple rules that any sort of check is necessary to do so: Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform. The only check singled out is a concentration check to cast a spell, but according to RAW, it should be possible to juggle while grappled as long as you only use one hand.
LazarX |
The issue here is that grapple doesn't allow anything for the PC to do with BOTH hands...which is why the PC is trying to put one hand in pocket and put in the ring. It would, in my opinion, be a move action at least; but would the action need to be done via sleight of hand or just work automatically, thus donning the ring on.
It's quite important actually. The PC is grappled by a larger creature but the ring is a Freedom of Movement ring, which will let him escape next round.
Why weren't you wearing the ring to start with? Is it because you're already wearing two rings? If so, you've got a complication that you have to deal with first, i.e. getting rid of one of your rings.
Orfamay Quest |
nogoodscallywag wrote:Why weren't you wearing the ring to start with? Is it because you're already wearing two rings? If so, you've got a complication that you have to deal with first, i.e. getting rid of one of your rings.The issue here is that grapple doesn't allow anything for the PC to do with BOTH hands...which is why the PC is trying to put one hand in pocket and put in the ring. It would, in my opinion, be a move action at least; but would the action need to be done via sleight of hand or just work automatically, thus donning the ring on.
It's quite important actually. The PC is grappled by a larger creature but the ring is a Freedom of Movement ring, which will let him escape next round.
Although removing a ring one-handed is also practical, as I have (again) confirmed by personal experience.
Gwen Smith |
I would let the character do it, but retrieving the item would provoke an AoO.
He would only need a Sleight of Hand check if he's trying to do it without the grappler noticing.
If he has to remove another ring first, he could easily do that by putting his finger in his mouth, pulling the ring off with his teeth, and then spitting it out or swallowing it, depending on how long he wants to wait before he has a chance of getting it back. :-)
Leonhart Steelmane |
I would probably make it a slight of hand/Escape artist DC20 full round action. Its hard to get a ring properly onto your finger, from your pocket whilst only using that hand, let alone doing while someone is grappling you. I would also say doing this in under 6 seconds would also be really hard so I think a DC20 full round action slight of hand check.
FLite |
I would probably make it a slight of hand/Escape artist DC20 full round action. Its hard to get a ring properly onto your finger, from your pocket whilst only using that hand, let alone doing while someone is grappling you. I would also say doing this in under 6 seconds would also be really hard so I think a DC20 full round action slight of hand check.
Not really. I can do it trivially easily in under a second. Remember, grappled just means they have a hold on one of your arms. That is all.
Now pinned would be a different problem.
LazarX |
I would probably make it a slight of hand/Escape artist DC20 full round action. Its hard to get a ring properly onto your finger, from your pocket whilst only using that hand, let alone doing while someone is grappling you. I would also say doing this in under 6 seconds would also be really hard so I think a DC20 full round action slight of hand check.
At the very minimum, I'd make it a check against the grappler's CMB or even CMD.
Orfamay Quest |
Leonhart Steelmane wrote:I would probably make it a slight of hand/Escape artist DC20 full round action. Its hard to get a ring properly onto your finger, from your pocket whilst only using that hand, let alone doing while someone is grappling you. I would also say doing this in under 6 seconds would also be really hard so I think a DC20 full round action slight of hand check.At the very minimum, I'd make it a check against the grappler's CMB or even CMD.
Why should it be more difficult to don a ring than, for instance, to juggle (which can also be done one-handed)?
The rules specifically do not demand any sort of check to take actions (except for casting spells),..... this definitely seems ultra vires to me.
Weirdo |
There are a lot of things that would reasonably be harder when grappled. The rules are very specific about what actually is harder: -4 Dex penalty, -2 to attacks, casting difficulties, and no two-handed actions.
Since putting on a ring doesn't take two hands (I've confirmed Orfamay Quest's experiment) and is not an attack, spell, or dex check, it doesn't qualify.
You can house rule if you like but be aware that it's a house rule and not supported by the text.
Cavall |
In what sense is putting on a ring one handed because you checked NOT a house rule? You literally did it in a house.
Was someone grabbing you by one arm at the time and trying to gain the upper hand to push pull pin or stab you at the time? Did you flip a coin to be lucky enough to have the ring in the same side as your free hand?
The fact you even had to experiment to learn you could proves that it's not an assumed easy thing. It may have been easy for you to check buy you still had to check to know. That makes it a check. A Dex check.
FLite |
I didn't have to check. I do it on a regular basis. And since I have a three year old, yes, sometimes while someone is grabbing my arm. :)
You don't have to flip a coin to see if you can use your sword or if it is in the hand that is grabbed. You don't have to flip a coin to see if you can retrieve a potion. Welcome to the world of abstract combat.