Inspiration and Criticals, Rules Question


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

"Expend one use of inspiration from his pool to add 1d6 to the result of that check, including any on which he takes 10 or 20. This choice is made after the check is rolled and before the results are revealed. An investigator can only use inspiration once per check or roll....
Inspiration can also be used on attack rolls and saving throws, at the cost of expending two uses of inspiration each time from the investigator's pool.
"
So, should you use this ability during an attack does the d6 add before or after determining if you threatened a critical?
The line "This choice is made after the check is rolled and before the results are revealed." is the primary reason I think this may be the case. That said, it makes an Investigator significantly better in combat if they can edge their way into crit range just by using two points (1 After Combat Inspiration)

Thanks in advance.


It doesn't modify the rolled value, and the rolled value is the thing that determines if there was a critical threat, not the total bonus.

For example, say you have a +3 attack bonus, and a weapon that critically threatens on an 18-20. If you rolled a 14, added your +3 attack bonus, for a result of 17, if you added inspiration, you still would've only rolled a 14, which is not a critical threat, even though you had a minimum check result of 18.

Does that make sense? It's kind of a run-on sentence.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Inspiration does not alter the natural die result, which is what determines critical threat.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, and I figured that was the case.
Some of this wording comes out like legal-ese though: "before the results are revealed"... Are you somehow not looking at your own attack die?

Sczarni

Meaning, whether you know that roll is a success or not.

Unless it's a 1 or a 20, you shouldn't know for sure (though you might be pretty sure).

Silver Crusade

I've flagged this to be moved into the rules forum, but I also have a question to go on top of it.

Suppose I have an attack bonus of +3, an expanded crit range weapon, say 18-20, and I roll a natural 18. That only threatens a critical if it is a hit, so I spend 2 points of inspiration to roll a d6 to add to that. It comes up 4. So I get a 25 to my attack roll, which hits and threatens a critical hit. Do I still add +7 to the confirmation roll, or do I add +3?

I would think I add +7 because when you roll to confirm a critical hit, you add all of the bonuses that were on the original roll.

But I'm not sure.


When I first saw this, I thought it was a question of how Inspiration worked with the Critical Confirmation roll -- actually still want to know this.

Silver Crusade

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A critical confirmation roll is a type of attack roll. You should be able to spend 2 inspiration points (or 1 with combat inspiration) to add inspiration to a confirmation roll. It is not the same attack roll as the original attack, and so you would have to purchase a new inspiration die, and not use the original one.

PRD on Critical Hits:
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

Yikes! Perhaps I am wrong and the original inspiration applies to the confirmation roll as well.

PRD on Inspiration, from the Investigator write up:

Inspiration (Ex): An investigator is beyond knowledgeable and skilled—he also possesses keen powers of observation and deduction that far surpass the abilities of others. An investigator typically uses these powers to aid in their investigations, but can also use these flashes of inspiration in other situations.

An investigator has the ability to augment skill checks and ability checks through his brilliant inspiration. The investigator has an inspiration pool equal to 1/2 his investigator level + his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). An investigator's inspiration pool refreshes each day, typically after he gets a restful night's sleep. As a free action, he can expend one use of inspiration from his pool to add 1d6 to the result of that check, including any on which he takes 10 or 20. This choice is made after the check is rolled and before the results are revealed. An investigator can only use inspiration once per check or roll. The investigator can use inspiration on any Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft skill checks without expending a use of inspiration, provided he's trained in the skill.

Inspiration can also be used on attack rolls and saving throws, at the cost of expending two uses of inspiration each time from the investigator's pool. In the case of saving throws, using inspiration is an immediate action rather than a free action.

Sorry, didn't mean to go for a derail, but the text seems to say that the inspiration applies to both the original attack roll and the confirmation roll, too.

Scarab Sages

DesolateHarmony wrote:

A critical confirmation roll is a type of attack roll. You should be able to spend 2 inspiration points (or 1 with combat inspiration) to add inspiration to a confirmation roll. It is not the same attack roll as the original attack, and so you would have to purchase a new inspiration die, and not use the original one.

** spoiler omitted **

Yikes! Perhaps I am wrong and the original inspiration applies to the confirmation roll as well.

** spoiler omitted **...

I would say you would have to spend the points again on the confirmation roll. It is a bonus to the roll and not a modifier I think. And as it is a separate roll that the inspiration does not normally apply too. Its an addition to the d20 roll raising that number I feel.

Silver Crusade

What kinds of modifiers are there, that aren't bonuses or penalties?

Having inspiration actually change the number on the d20 roll is a very dangerous way to go. You really don't want a x4 critical weapon threatening on a 17 on the main die and a 3 on the inspiration die.

PRD on inspiration wrote:
As a free action, he can expend one use of inspiration from his pool to add 1d6 to the result of that check, including any on which he takes 10 or 20. This choice is made after the check is rolled and before the results are revealed.

Working from memory, I had thought that inspiration on an attack roll that threatened a critical hit would not carry over to the confirmation roll, but after rereading enough to post this, it appears that inspiration is a modifier, a bonus, and the description of a confirmation roll says it uses the same as the original roll.

For what it is worth, using inspiration in combat does cost 2 inspiration points, or a high-level investigator talent to reduce the cost.

Scarab Sages

Ah yea I can see the point of that.. 17 becoming 20.. But the more I've thought about it the more I have to wonder..

Since most rolls to threaten a crit are going to be 18 to 20 anyway and in my experience I can never recall rolling that and missing the AC you wouldn't be adding the d6 bonus..

As the confirmation is an attack roll you could add it separately after I would feel.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The question of adding the bonus to both rolls comes up fairly often regarding True Strike, as well.

Some GMs apply the bonus to both, and some apply it only to the first.

I'd like to know the answer as well.

Scarab Sages

Inspector Pendergast wrote:

The question of adding the bonus to both rolls comes up fairly often regarding True Strike, as well.

Some GMs apply the bonus to both, and some apply it only to the first.

I'd like to know the answer as well.

Quote from Paizo PRD:

"You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target."

Since it says make another attack rolls to confirm and the spell says your next single attack roll I would say it does not..


True Strike definitely adds to the confirmation roll.

Quote:
To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made.

Inspiration, on the other hand, is not a modifier to the attack roll. It's added to result after the actual roll is made.

Quote:
As a free action, he can expend one use of inspiration from his pool to add 1d6 to the result of that check, including any on which he takes 10 or 20. This choice is made after the check is rolled and before the results are revealed.

Based on this, I would say the inspiration die doesn't apply to the confirmation roll. (But since it's a free action, the investigator would of course be able to use it on the confirmation roll again if he has enough uses remaining.)

Scarab Sages

Can see a case for either call with true strike but then again if I am up front I never much liked the roll to confirm aspect anyway but thats the way the game is written.

And honestly think True Strike is overpowered myself.. It might as well just say you hit no matter what.. Unless you roll a 1 or are for some reason trying to hit something way above your level its rather hard to miss..
I mean even ancient dragons only have AC 38 or so.. So almost half of its ac is gone right there.. And is anyone below level 10 likely to not run away from a dragon at first sight? So there's another 5 before the die roll.. A magic weapon of +2 or so and you are looking at a roll of 10 or better to hit..

And lets be honest what mage in his right mind is gonna be doing anything other than heaving fireballs or some other elemental version of the same at a dragon.. Unless your stupid/brave enough to try some shocking grasp on it your not gonna need an attack roll.

But thats just me and my useless 2 coins eh :)

Silver Crusade

Scorching Ray and the like need an attack roll. True strike only works on one of them, but it is often better than trying to go through a dragon's saves.

The difficulty with true strike is the action economy. Either the standard action on one turn, or a level 5 spell slot for quickened. It doesn't come cheap.


Necro-ing this a bit to ask a follow up question: Lets say I have combat inspiration and an inspired weapon and I make a critical threat. If I add inspiration to the crit confirm roll would I get the damage boost from the inspired weapon?

Silver Crusade

Woodoodoo wrote:
Necro-ing this a bit to ask a follow up question: Lets say I have combat inspiration and an inspired weapon and I make a critical threat. If I add inspiration to the crit confirm roll would I get the damage boost from the inspired weapon?

Also re-necro-ing to ask this. I've got a player whose investigator doesn't have trouble hitting, so he'd be throwing the inspiration die onto the confirmation check just to get 4x the result in damage. This seems wobbly to me, but I don't want to unduly take away my players' toys.

Grand Lodge

It's a good question and one that I'm looking for clarification on as well... (I'm playing an investigator at the moment), and would like to nip the issue in the bud before it comes up at the table.


I'm fairly sure from a grammatical standpoint inspiration/true-strike do modify the original roll, so you add that modifier to the critical confirmation roll.
Unless Paizo have an official ruling on either of these specific cases - or a specific definition of the word "modifier" somewhere that I haven't seen - the lack of the word "modifier" or "bonus" shouldn't change the fact that both of these things actually do modify the result of the roll (If they do have a specific definition it would be great if someone would post it).

Interesting thought though: If you roll inspiration on your attack roll and threaten a critical do you roll another die when you confirm the critical or do you use the original inspiration result on both your attack roll and your critical confirmation roll? (obviously this is a moot point if my first paragraph turns out to be wrong).

Grand Lodge

There are posts that explain dev team intent to keep the ruleset manageable by keeping similar things similar. The provided example is all improved combat feats provide +2 to CMB and prevent an AOOs.

I doubt the difference between a positive modifier versus a bonus is significant enough to warrant all players and GMs to remember "critical confirmations use the same bonuses as the original attack, except for Investigators."

So Mr Charisma, I agree with you. As for your second question, I treat the bonus as a variable one and force the confirmation roll to reroll the inspiration die, but wouldn't argue if a GM ruled it is static one for both.

Eliandra, since the damage from an inspired weapon is from a special weapon quality, it is not multiplied on a critical hit.

"Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit."


Grey_Mage wrote:
Mr Charisma, I agree with you.

Thanks.

Grey_Mage wrote:
As for your second question, I treat the bonus as a variable one and force the confirmation roll to reroll the inspiration die, but wouldn't argue if a GM ruled it is static one for both.

Yup, agree with both points.

Grey_Mage wrote:
Eliandra, since the damage from an inspired weapon is from a special weapon quality, it is not multiplied on a critical hit.

True words, but if you build for it it can still be pretty great. Take Amazing Inspiration and you're looking at 2-16 bonus damage, & add Tenacious Inspiration and you're looking at a 75% chance of +10 or more damage.

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