Impression of the Warlock Talents


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion


Arcane Training I:

Technically not a talent since it's mandatory. I would love to have this replace both minor and major magic rogue talents on my rogue. It doesn't work on the Warlock. Given the amount of space devoted to this it's impressively easy to miss the spells per day section.

Arcane Trainings II-VI:

5 Talent Tax for what should have been the point of the specialization but instead does little or nothing to augment it.

Arcane Striker

Can't really benefit from it with my limited spells per day. Can't use it with my mystic bolt. Can't use it with my bombs. Can't use most of these thematic abilities in the same round that I'd attack with a weapon. Waste of Space.

Bombs

If you reference the APG to cut down space here you can cut down space in the AT I description by referencing the ACG's Arcanist and summarizing differences. I like internal formatting consistency within at least a specialization. The point of these are supposed to be splash damage to compliment the Mystic Bolt's single target. Instead the Warlock does not add int to damage, so the splash damage is a static 1. Not very threatening. Also the only option is fire damage which means if I pick Mystic Bolt (Fire) I'm doubly screwed against anything fire resistant. This needs a lot of development.

Bond of Blood

This is nice; wish it worked with mystic bolt or bombs. Or spells I guess if you want to pay your taxes.

Caster's Defense

This is potentially nifty, but very limited given the small spells/day pool. I'd make it last a number of rounds equal to the spell level cast.

Concealed Casting

Needs a reprint so that it works. Already addressed by others. Potentially neat. Would be better if the Warlock had some incentive for sneakily casting at people.

Educated Defense

Very Strong. Makes up for a few downfalls.

Elemental Battle Armor

I like this except for the little issue that you can't turn it off while in your vigilante persona. Oh look the guy that's on fire! SHOOT HIM!!!

Familiar

Pretty standard. Might expand it to familiar or arcane bond and add the limiting text that you can't have multiple familiars/bonds as a result of the ability.

Living Shadow

Sounds thematic, and given Warlocks are generally shadowy I was expecting Mystic Bolts etc to have more of this sort of theme. One small issue: PRD isn't returning a result for shadow body (is this the correct spell name?); a PFSRD search returns a third party spell. More information required for playtest.

Mystic Bolt

Standard level one ability with a small buff. A one-trick pony but fun-ish. Would be nice if it could be used with itself for TWF, and if the energy type were more variable.

Nonlethal Spellcasting

I'd rather see this as a core rule mechanic for spell casting. I can see it being useful but it's close to being a tax.

Shadow Jump

Very nice. I'd take this in a heartbeat.

Signature Spell

Could use some changes to reflect warlock not being a casting class.

Social Simulacrum

This is pretty nifty, I like it.

Tattoo Chamber

The Warlock's best ability hands down. I love this. That said it could be given more utility (availability to Social Aspect/swift action item activation) without being terribly overpowered.

15 Unique class abilities; a nice if scattered theme that ends up feeling sub-par overall.

My advice to the designer is ask yourself first "what is a warlock?" Write down everything that comes to mind. Then ask yourself "what does this ADD to Pathfinder?" Jot that down, and cross reference. Finally revise things to give the class a more intrinsically useful/thematic feel.


Agreed. Personally what I found to be interesting is making the Warlock and Zealot combined and create a Full class Mystic Theurge. A sorcerer/Oracle Mystic Theurge will have level 7 spells so being a 6-level caster isn't too bad and creates a interesting space for these guys since there is no other "Arcane-Divine" Caster thus far...


Bard and Witch spell lists bridge the Arcane-Divine Gap. Oracle has a more limited access to Sorc/Wiz anyways from Mysteries. Sorc spell list has a built-in caveat to include anything your GM allows (admittedly I know none who'd open up the full divine array). It would add some flexibility to the class and make swallowing the taxes easier. Further the Arcanist spell slot preparation would make the hybridization easy. Not sure it's strictly necessary however.

Warlock can stand on its own two feet with a little tweaking so I don't agree that it needs this. Zealot needs a new Dev or to be scrapped/rolled into this.


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Trekkie90909 wrote:
Living Shadow

Unfortunately living shadow was an accident, it was meant to be removed from the playtest since it refers to a spell that will be released in the future, but because I did a 15th level warlock playtest the Dev's released the text of the spell:

Quote:
You exchange the crude matter of your material body with the insubstantial essence of the Plane of Shadow, becoming a living shadow yourself. You are visible as an unattached shadow in bright light or normal light, but you gain total concealment in dim light or darkness. Against creatures with darkvision, you gain concealment rather than total concealment. Your shadow body is incorporeal for most purposes, though you can’t fly or pass through solid objects or creatures. However, you can move at your normal speed along any surface, including horizontal and vertical surfaces and liquids, and you are never slowed by difficult terrain. Your size doesn’t change. You can speak and cast spells and perform mental actions, but you have no physical substance and cannot manipulate objects or attack physically. You can deliver touch spells and effects as if making an incorporeal touch attack. Your equipment merges with your shadow body, so you can’t cast spells with a material component unless those spells are prepared with Eschew Materials.

It was very useful in one of my fights when the enemies had no magical weapons, but I could still mystic bolt them.


Milo v3 wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:
Living Shadow

Unfortunately living shadow was an accident, it was meant to be removed from the playtest since it refers to a spell that will be released in the future, but because I did a 15th level warlock playtest the Dev's released the text of the spell:

Quote:
You exchange the crude matter of your material body with the insubstantial essence of the Plane of Shadow, becoming a living shadow yourself. You are visible as an unattached shadow in bright light or normal light, but you gain total concealment in dim light or darkness. Against creatures with darkvision, you gain concealment rather than total concealment. Your shadow body is incorporeal for most purposes, though you can’t fly or pass through solid objects or creatures. However, you can move at your normal speed along any surface, including horizontal and vertical surfaces and liquids, and you are never slowed by difficult terrain. Your size doesn’t change. You can speak and cast spells and perform mental actions, but you have no physical substance and cannot manipulate objects or attack physically. You can deliver touch spells and effects as if making an incorporeal touch attack. Your equipment merges with your shadow body, so you can’t cast spells with a material component unless those spells are prepared with Eschew Materials.
It was very useful in one of my fights when the enemies had no magical weapons, but I could still mystic bolt them.

That explains a lot, Thank You!


Looking at your point while I was pretty happy to see the warlock option, making me remember my second favorite class from D&D 3.5 you have a good point on several of them. The tax issue is a fair one, I kind of wonder if something like the witch hexes might be a fun option for this. Also I do agree that it needs something, either more spells or SLAs, or something because pure magic is pretty nice, as designed it's sort of an issue.

Also realized a few modifications that need to be made, or clarifications. I am hoping we can use deadly aim with mystic bolts. Also would like to point out that we need to know if we can cast properly while wearing armor for the warlock, if we can, then that does add some useful new options.If not...we need that option.

Sovereign Court

Archangel62 wrote:


Also realized a few modifications that need to be made, or clarifications. I am hoping we can use deadly aim with mystic bolts. Also would like to point out that we need to know if we can cast properly while wearing armor for the warlock, if we can, then that does add some useful new options.If not...we need that option.

I wouldn't expect Deadly Aim/Power attack to ever be applicable to Mystic Bolts, as they are touch attacks and pretty much one of the main examples why those feats have clauses against them.

Additionally, it has been clarified: Warlocks are arcane casters that suffer ASF when wearing any armor or shields.


Lukas Stariha wrote:
Archangel62 wrote:


Also realized a few modifications that need to be made, or clarifications. I am hoping we can use deadly aim with mystic bolts. Also would like to point out that we need to know if we can cast properly while wearing armor for the warlock, if we can, then that does add some useful new options.If not...we need that option.

I wouldn't expect Deadly Aim/Power attack to ever be applicable to Mystic Bolts, as they are touch attacks and pretty much one of the main examples why those feats have clauses against them.

Additionally, it has been clarified: Warlocks are arcane casters that suffer ASF when wearing any armor or shields.

...so in other words it loses key class features, got it. This is not a good design. I would also argue that the bolts should be considered an exception for deadly aim, if only because I can throw more damage with a gun and have fewer limitations against me. Not to mention being outpaced by bows, etc.

On a different note, I got an interesting idea, something like a sort of mini eidolon, a powerful wraithlike entity or other such being that could be called on as a kind of partner or temporary summon to aid in battle.


I would not personally use guns as an example of well balanced design material. The Bolts feel useful as they are right now, but are not outstanding. That said they need some love; I've tried them against things with SR, and they remain decent. I've tried the Warlock against things with resistances and it's useless. The biggest issue with the class right now is it's a one-trick pony. Needs to be more interesting, or at least more broadly useful.

On a separate but related note: ASF really hurts the class right now.

I'm not sure it needs an eidolon, but an archetype focused more on the familiar might be interesting. Heck having the base class focus more on the source of its eldritch energies would be good.


Adding to that: Ignoring Accuracy/Resistances for a minute and assuming your weapon damage stat is starts at +3-+5 lvl 1 and can be multiplied on a critical hit:

Bolts and one handed 1d6 18-20 x2 weapons are analogous damage wise from levels 4-20 if you ignore improved critical, extra utility from weapon enhancements (the numerical bonus was factored into the comparison but things like burst/holy/vicious/overcoming DR etc was ignored), and class features/damage steroid feats/weilding the weapon 2 handed.

In theory the extra accuracy from the bolts should offset some of the extra options available to weapons (they do target touch AC after all). In practice it looks like SR will make them roughly as accurate to slightly less accurate or even immune at high levels. This means that over the course of a Warlock's life it will be better off investing in mundane weapons than using its bolts. Particularly when you factor DR/Resistances into the equation.

Maybe this will be addressed with some vigilante focused items in UI, but as currently released it makes the warlock a bit ineffectual at later levels.

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Question...would a warlock/rogue be able to sneak attack with mystic bolts if used within 30 feet and catching someone flat footed?


Thrawn007 wrote:
Question...would a warlock/rogue be able to sneak attack with mystic bolts if used within 30 feet and catching someone flat footed?

Yeah. if you were wanting to dip 4levels into warlock for the mystic bolt access first. then into something with sneak attack.

It should be completely valid for sneak attack; in situations where sneak attack is normally viable.


@Thrawn Yes, mystic bolts function like a touch spell, and sneak attack applies to those.

@Zwords Perfectly viable regardless of the order you dip/primary class you choose to focus on.

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That's my reading too. I may have to experiment with some builds to see what that could turn into.

The 4 level "dip" would also include:
6 skill points per level, so not a big drop off for a skill character
Dual Identity
Social Grace
Level 2 Talent (I think Tatoo chamber is awesome for a rogue)
Lesser Renown
6 level 0 spells, 4 level 1 spells

Ranged sneak attacks on touch attacks doesn't sound that hard to set up using concealment.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Remember that mystic bolts can also be touch attacks, which makes it even easier to get sneak attack damage.


Tattoo Chamber is awesome in general; I started to recommend 2 more levels of warlock for level 2 spells, but honestly fog cloud 1/day is not worth 1d6 damage, a rogue talent, and faster access to other rogue class features.

Scarab Sages

The problem with the dip is the fact that cl doesn't increase in the bolts. You'll never get through spell resistance. It's also not that much better than simply taking minor and major magic as a pure rogue for acid splash and chill touch.


I think bombs are better then you are giving them credit for, You are thinking they are there to add aoe (you have spells for that) sure thier splash only increases as the die damage increases, but you can take bomb talents to alter this making use of the cool effects from bombs, more then the damage aspect. This is a talent to toss cool effects on your opponents (actually think this is a better stalker talent but what can you do).

Scarab Sages

ChrisLKimball wrote:

I think bombs are better then you are giving them credit for, You are thinking they are there to add aoe (you have spells for that) sure thier splash only increases as the die damage increases, but you can take bomb talents to alter this making use of the cool effects from bombs, more then the damage aspect. This is a talent to toss cool effects on your opponents (actually think this is a better stalker talent but what can you do).

Stalkers already have them as a Talent as they can take the Bomber Rogue Talent.


ChrisLKimball wrote:

I think bombs are better then you are giving them credit for, You are thinking they are there to add aoe (you have spells for that) sure thier splash only increases as the die damage increases, but you can take bomb talents to alter this making use of the cool effects from bombs, more then the damage aspect. This is a talent to toss cool effects on your opponents (actually think this is a better stalker talent but what can you do).

You really don't/can't, but I'd be interested in reading your playtest account.


My GM determined that, provided you view a grappling hook and rope as one object when combined, Tattoo Chamber can let you hookshot a la Link, albeit very slowly.

Scarab Sages

technarken wrote:
My GM determined that, provided you view a grappling hook and rope as one object when combined, Tattoo Chamber can let you hookshot a la Link, albeit very slowly.

I'd rather have a wand of Force Hook charge in the tattoo chamber to simulate the hookshot.


Imbicatus wrote:
technarken wrote:
My GM determined that, provided you view a grappling hook and rope as one object when combined, Tattoo Chamber can let you hookshot a la Link, albeit very slowly.
I'd rather have a wand of Force Hook charge in the tattoo chamber to simulate the hookshot.

Force Hook Charge wand is expensive, and only has 50 uses. It's also out of reach for a low level warlock


Cool! The wand is a good idea, but would be better if the spell were on the Warlock's list.


It just takes a swift, attack roll, then full round. I'd like if it were a move action to stow so I could spend 1 full round grappling and zipping off, but ah well. I suppose it would be "broken" to have a discreet thing like that.

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