Trekkie90909 |
Another Day
Diehard + Free Stealth to not be CdG’d. I’ve definitely wished for this before. Not sure if I’d take it, but I like having the option.
Case the Joint
I love this thematically; most GMs/published scenarios railroad the party too hard for this to work consistently. Scaling free rerolls by level a week based on similar knowledge might work better.
Expose Weakness
Negating DR is nice; unfortunately you’d still need to carry bags of silver etc with you to use it. This could be better worked into a core gameplay mechanic using alchemical items. Such as by reducing the cost and restrictions on weapon balms.
Foe Collision
This is pretty cool; I’m a fan.
Hide in Plain Sight
Always a good/strong option.
Leave an Opening
Ooh, this + Whirlwind (or cleave) + Foe Collision. Just saying. In either event definitely dipping Unchained Rogue for that dex to damage.
Mighty Ambush
Standard.
Mockingbird
This has some interesting options; I’ll need to playtest it.
Perfect Fall
Reasonable; find a lot of people pick up boots of the cat, so not sure it would come up often. Buff over slowfall reasonable given that the social aspect can’t benefit from it
Perfect Vulnerability
Hm… Largely better than Mighty Ambush. It’s nice, I’m worried it’s too strong but need to playtest.
Pull into the Shadows
Scary Powerful NPC ambush tool. That said very useful to the PCs as well. I would add a level prereq
Rogue Talent
Standard.
Rooftop Infiltrator
Very Nice. Love movespeeds.
Shadow’s Sight
Very good. I can see myself getting this everytime, although strike the unseen marginalizes it significantly.
Silent Dispatch
Squeal of joy. Seriously though, this is usually a levels 10-14 thing.
Sniper
Range boost is excellent – which will offset the d4s until the rogue gets sniper goggles.
Strike the Unseen
I will always get this period.
Surprise Strike
Nice; potentially very powerful. Will need to playtest.
Throat Jab
This… should be a prerequisite to Silent Dispatch. As much as it pains me to say it.
Twisting Fear
This really seems quite abusable. Then again a lot of things are immune to fear.
Up Close and Personal
o.O Very nice.
Total Talent Options: 21 – All thematic, impressive; someone has been busy.
Starbuck_II |
Expose WeaknessNegating DR is nice; unfortunately you’d still need to carry bags of silver etc with you to use it. This could be better worked into a core gameplay mechanic using alchemical items. Such as by reducing the cost and restrictions on weapon balms.
It depends on how much is flavor text. It seems a way to bypass a strength through its weakness.
Godwyn |
As I also look at all of these, I continually wonder "why these are not all rogue talents?"
Actually, make them all base rogue talents. Then make Stalker Vigilante a rogue archetype. Does pretty much everything instantly.
Level 1: Trade finesse training and trap finding for social grace and dual identity.
Everything else trades on a nearly 1 for 1 except level 7.
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
8 level 8 Stalker NPC's attacking from invisibility with mighty ambush, surprise strike, and perfect vulnerability decimated a level 12 party. There is more going on the bad guy side in the scenario, but I was just interested in what changing out level 8 rogues for level 8 stalkers could do. This class has SO much potential for both challenging and interesting villains.
Godwyn |
8 level 8 Stalker NPC's attacking from invisibility with mighty ambush, surprise strike, and perfect vulnerability decimated a level 12 party. There is more going on the bad guy side in the scenario, but I was just interested in what changing out level 8 rogues for level 8 stalkers could do. This class has SO much potential for both challenging and interesting villains.
That goes to the problem I keep seeing. 8 rogues with those as talents would have done the exact same thing. The main feature of the vigilante is the dual identity. And had any of those 8 been using their alternate identity, they could not have used any of those 3 talents.
The Vigilante Stalker is a good rogue archetype; it is a bad full class on its own.
The only reason Vigilante seems to be a full class is to weirdly and poorly combine 4 different archetypes into a single class. Built one way it gets a full BAB, built another it gets 6 level spellcasting, built another it gets sneak attack and rogue talents.
If it had shown up in Unchained along with 2 other classes, that can build different ways to make different roles in an attempt to recombine the disparate classes, I could see the point. But it isn't. There are a lot of Core and Base classes that each part could be grafted onto.
Mark Seifter Designer |
8 level 8 Stalker NPC's attacking from invisibility with mighty ambush, surprise strike, and perfect vulnerability decimated a level 12 party. There is more going on the bad guy side in the scenario, but I was just interested in what changing out level 8 rogues for level 8 stalkers could do. This class has SO much potential for both challenging and interesting villains.
Oh man, that sounds really exciting! Care to share the playtest results in a rundown?
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Thrawn007 wrote:8 level 8 Stalker NPC's attacking from invisibility with mighty ambush, surprise strike, and perfect vulnerability decimated a level 12 party. There is more going on the bad guy side in the scenario, but I was just interested in what changing out level 8 rogues for level 8 stalkers could do. This class has SO much potential for both challenging and interesting villains.Oh man, that sounds really exciting! Care to share the playtest results in a rundown?
Unfortunately, since it was a combat taken directly from a PFS adventure I don't want to spoil, I don't want to give too much information. Trying to figure out how to post more specific results without ruining things. I'm sure a lot of people will know the scenario without having to say anything more.
I can say that the big change to the modified fight vs the standard fight was:
1) The bad guys got to attack against touch AC (with an extra +2 from surprise strike), ensuring that they landed much more often than when playing through with rogues. 75% of shots landed, and with the 4d6 hidden strike damage added in, it put a hurting on low hp enemies. (It even resulted in a critical hit due to touch AC, which was almost impossible when played with the rogues.)
2) The kicker though was the DC17 fort saves from mighty ambush managed to take one of the four characters and an animal companion out of the fight.
The vigilantes didn't do much after that, but they didn't have to. The first round was so destructive to the party, that it was a quick TPK situation.
Some things that could have made them more sustained beyond the initial burst:
Silent Dispatch - might have allowed a second round of hidden strikes, which would have been unlikely due to high perceptions on the PC's.
Hide in Plain Sight - Same issue of perceptions, and would have required trading out perfect vulnerability, which would cancel out the key to the burstiness.
They hardly had a successful hit after round 1, in spite of taking multiple shots per round, since without being concealed, they no longer shot against touch ac. It convinced me of how powerful and reliable that one round burst could be though.
Mark Seifter Designer |
Mark Seifter wrote:Thrawn007 wrote:8 level 8 Stalker NPC's attacking from invisibility with mighty ambush, surprise strike, and perfect vulnerability decimated a level 12 party. There is more going on the bad guy side in the scenario, but I was just interested in what changing out level 8 rogues for level 8 stalkers could do. This class has SO much potential for both challenging and interesting villains.Oh man, that sounds really exciting! Care to share the playtest results in a rundown?Unfortunately, since it was a combat taken directly from a PFS adventure I don't want to spoil, I don't want to give too much information. Trying to figure out how to post more specific results without ruining things. I'm sure a lot of people will know the scenario without having to say anything more.
I can say that the big change to the modified fight vs the standard fight was:
1) The bad guys got to attack against touch AC (with an extra +2 from surprise strike), ensuring that they landed much more often than when playing through with rogues. 75% of shots landed, and with the 4d6 hidden strike damage added in, it put a hurting on low hp enemies. (It even resulted in a critical hit due to touch AC, which was almost impossible when played with the rogues.)
2) The kicker though was the DC17 fort saves from mighty ambush managed to take one of the four characters and an animal companion out of the fight.The vigilantes didn't do much after that, but they didn't have to. The first round was so destructive to the party, that it was a quick TPK situation.
Some things that could have made them more sustained beyond the initial burst:
Silent Dispatch - might have allowed a second round of hidden strikes, which would have been unlikely due to high perceptions on the PC's.
Hide in Plain Sight - Same issue of perceptions, and would have required trading out perfect vulnerability, which would cancel out the key to the burstiness.They hardly had a successful hit after round 1,...
Oh man, you turned that encounter into a deadly one against PFS PCs from those guys? (and yeah, vigilante is very appropriate there). And I assume it was just by converting to stalker and still keeping their lackluster stats and gear basically the same. Nice! When I ran it, those guys couldn't do a single thing to the PCs.
Yeah, my impression of stalker from my own solo playtests was that they have an incredible first round or two but not always as sustainable as an Unchained rogue if the fight goes long. But in Pathfinder, if your first round or two goes well enough, as you say, it can quickly decide the fight.
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Thrawn007 wrote:8 level 8 Stalker NPC's attacking from invisibility with mighty ambush, surprise strike, and perfect vulnerability decimated a level 12 party. There is more going on the bad guy side in the scenario, but I was just interested in what changing out level 8 rogues for level 8 stalkers could do. This class has SO much potential for both challenging and interesting villains.That goes to the problem I keep seeing. 8 rogues with those as talents would have done the exact same thing. The main feature of the vigilante is the dual identity. And had any of those 8 been using their alternate identity, they could not have used any of those 3 talents.
Funny thing is, the way the scenario plays out by the book, I could easily have seen all 8 vigilantes spending the 5 minutes to change identities. All the fluff was perfect for them to be vigilantes over rogues.
In addition, it sounds like the ability loss in social mode is being modified based on feedback that has already been given. We don't know what it will ultimately look like, but I think the ability loss issue isn't worth continuing to target.
The Vigilante Stalker is a good rogue archetype; it is a bad full class on its own.
I do agree at some level. However, that ship has sailed. It's going to be a class, not an archtype. So lets give feedback to make it the best class possible.
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Oh man, you turned that encounter into a deadly one against PFS PCs from those guys? (and yeah, vigilante is very appropriate there). And I assume it was just by converting to stalker and still keeping their lackluster stats and gear basically the same. Nice! When I ran it, those guys couldn't do a single thing to the PCs.
I kept lackluster stats. I kept feat selection. Same gear.
Although I technically could have kept the rogue tricks as my vigilante abilities, that was the aspect we wanted to trade, so I traded out 3 of the rogue tricks for the 3 vigilante skills I listed.When we played through for real, the rogues couldn't hardly hit anything since they had such low attack bonus compared to PC armor class. What changed things was getting to attack vs touch AC for 1 round, almost guaranteeing a successful hidden strike on the first shot of the first round. The fact that the wizard and an animal companion were knocked out on top of all the damage inflicted is what turns the fight.
Yeah, my impression of stalker from my own solo playtests was that they have an incredible first round or two but not always as sustainable as an Unchained rogue if the fight goes long. But in Pathfinder, if your first round or two goes well enough, as you say, it can quickly decide the fight.
I think being that bursty might be frustrating over time as a PC, so it probably has to be addressed at some level. It certainly can make for some deadly NPC encounters though, especially in the kind of numbers from this fight.
In playing through vigilante PC tests, the stalker is by far the bursty one though. Other vigilantes don't suffer from that issue in the same way.
Trekkie90909 |
8 level 8 Stalker NPC's attacking from invisibility with mighty ambush, surprise strike, and perfect vulnerability decimated a level 12 party. There is more going on the bad guy side in the scenario, but I was just interested in what changing out level 8 rogues for level 8 stalkers could do. This class has SO much potential for both challenging and interesting villains.
Mighty Ambush has a level 10 pre-req. 8 level 8s is CR 13, add in invisibility and that's a CR 14 first round which you'd expect to be hard. The 8 save or unconscious attacks is probably the issue here, and isn't something they should have had access to.
Otherwise sounds like a solid encounter.
graystone |
In addition, it sounds like the ability loss in social mode is being modified based on feedback that has already been given. We don't know what it will ultimately look like, but I think the ability loss issue isn't worth continuing to target.
Until it's actually changed, we can only go by what we have. Personally, I'd want people to point it out every time it becomes relevant as it NEEDS changed and repeating that helps drive the point home. I don't see how more people saying it's an issue is a bad thing.
Mark Seifter Designer |
Thrawn007 wrote:In addition, it sounds like the ability loss in social mode is being modified based on feedback that has already been given. We don't know what it will ultimately look like, but I think the ability loss issue isn't worth continuing to target.Until it's actually changed, we can only go by what we have. Personally, I'd want people to point it out every time it becomes relevant as it NEEDS changed and repeating that helps drive the point home. I don't see how more people saying it's an issue is a bad thing.
Mostly because once we're already changing it, it becomes distracting noise in the playtest (whereas the first collection of times was very useful in convincing people of the point). It's precisely like if you dealt enough damage to defeat a foe but then you directed your next arrow at the dead enemy, instead of at the live one nearby. If you did not believe Jason from the interview, though, that he's already convinced to change it, then it would be worth it to continue.
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Thrawn007 wrote:8 level 8 Stalker NPC's attacking from invisibility with mighty ambush, surprise strike, and perfect vulnerability decimated a level 12 party. There is more going on the bad guy side in the scenario, but I was just interested in what changing out level 8 rogues for level 8 stalkers could do. This class has SO much potential for both challenging and interesting villains.Mighty Ambush has a level 10 pre-req. 8 level 8s is CR 13, add in invisibility and that's a CR 14 first round which you'd expect to be hard. The 8 save or unconscious attacks is probably the issue here, and isn't something they should have had access to.
Otherwise sounds like a solid encounter.
Good catch on Mighty Ambush! I didn't catch that, and it changes things quite a bit. It definitely showed me how cool that ability could be though, using characters terrible at raising the DC.
As far as CR, there is A LOT more going on with that encounter than I said. I just don't want to spoil things, so I only posted about what was relevant to the playtest.
graystone |
graystone wrote:Mostly because once we're already changing it, it becomes distracting noise in the playtest (whereas the first collection of times was very useful in convincing people of the point). It's precisely like if you dealt enough damage to defeat a foe but then you directed your next arrow at the dead enemy, instead of at the live one nearby. If you did not believe Jason from the interview, though, that he's already convinced to change it, then it would be worth it to continue.Thrawn007 wrote:In addition, it sounds like the ability loss in social mode is being modified based on feedback that has already been given. We don't know what it will ultimately look like, but I think the ability loss issue isn't worth continuing to target.Until it's actually changed, we can only go by what we have. Personally, I'd want people to point it out every time it becomes relevant as it NEEDS changed and repeating that helps drive the point home. I don't see how more people saying it's an issue is a bad thing.
LOL Well it's hard to believe Jason from the interview when I haven't seen/heard the interview. I've been checking here and I don't recall any interview posted. Can you point me to where it's posted on the site?
Also, did he mention what he means by 'changing it'? For instance, if the fix is something like dropping the time from 5 to 3 min, I'll be unimpressed. And will this fix be available before the playtest is over?
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
The wizard and animal companion being awake would have allowed them to counterattack, however, the wizard likely would have been dead, immediately after, unless he did something to save himself. (Actually, if I remember right, 4 bleed would have had him knocked out before he got to act.)
The secondary melee character went down on round 2 and still would have (animal companion was his).
Wouldn't have been a sure TPK, but it was likely going in that direction.
Milo v3 |
LOL Well it's hard to believe Jason from the interview when I haven't seen/heard the interview. I've been checking here and I don't recall any interview posted. Can you point me to where it's posted on the site?
Also, did he mention what he means by 'changing it'? For instance, if the fix is something like dropping the time from 5 to 3 min, I'll be unimpressed. And will this fix be available before the playtest is over?
The interview is here.
Thrawn007 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Jason was very convincing that it will change. He didn't just say they'd change it. He said why he'd change it. I see no reason anyone shouldn't believe it. It was a good example of when playtest feedback goes good.
We still don't know how exactly the change will be, but since the goal is to make it make more sense, I think most of us will be pleased with the final result.
...
With that in mind, its in our best interest to focus on other aspects of the class. I'm sure some of us will have other insights or suggestions that will be useful to the development team. However, to get to those new insights, we need to stop focusing on the old ones.
graystone |
Thrawn007: As I've already said, I can't be convinced by something I haven't seen. I'm glad it's been said it'll be fixed but I'm still wary until I see how it's changed. Just going by FAQ results lately, there is a good chance I might not like the final result. It's why I was wondering if it'd see playtesting. My expectations are lower than my hopes.
Until I actually get to view that interview, I don't see my talking about it more will do much good.
Godwyn |
Quote:The Vigilante Stalker is a good rogue archetype; it is a bad full class on its own.I do agree at some level. However, that ship has sailed. It's going to be a class, not an archtype. So lets give feedback to make it the best class possible.
Fair enough. I recently began playing an unchained rogue, and have attempted to remake them as a Vigilante Stalker. The most striking problem I find is the lack of dexterity to damage, making strength stalkers the best go to for damage just as it used to be for rogues. This thematic problem was finally addressed with the unchained rogue. A Stalker Talent giving dexterity to damage for melee would go a long way to fixing this. Make it an option so that ranged stalkers aren't forced with something they don't want to use.
As for the current talents, I will follow up in the same way as the OP with my thoughts on them.
Another Day
Very thematic, very situational. Could be really good in a narrow niche of campaigns. Pretty decent in those rare circumstances, and good to have as an opportunity.
Case the Joint
Thematic, good utility, too much setup and too vague. The theme is obviously the vigilante mingling at a party hosted by the evil villain and casing the joint. Why only vigilantes can case a joint and not a rogue is another issue, but I will try to restrain my bitterness for the rest.
At least an hour in a location. How big a location? An hour to case a single room or an entire labyrinth are both problems. The ability to gain multiple floating rerolls is pretty powerful, but I think the cost is too limiting. Nor should it be limited to just the social role. A vigilante hidden in the shadows observing a villainous meeting is somehow unable to study her surroundings anymore?
I would either tie the time necessary to the size of the place being cased, only minutes for a single room, scaling up for size. And the Vigilante gets to choose how much to study. Perhaps she knows the throne room will be the most important part and studies just it to be prepared for the final confrontation, and is willing to accept just their regular checks to get there. If she wants to be prepared for a larger area, it reasonably takes more time.
Or
Tie the study time to the number of rerolls available, again starting probably at 5 minutes for a single reroll.
If a character spends a limited class feature for an ability, and that ability takes an hour of prep to use, and is only usable in a specific location, the payoff better be worth it. A few rerolls is not, except in campaigns tailored to it. Which can be fine, but this talent could be much more versatile.
Expose Weakness
This should just be a core rule. Failing that, adding options onto dirty trick is interesting, but this seems very weak. It is designed for teamwork, but at almost any time you can do this, the Stalker would have added more damage to the creature by simply attacking. The only exception is if there are enough others attacking the same creature, and none of those attacks can otherwise bypass the DR, that adding +10 damage to each individual attack is more damage than the Stalker would have done attacking.
Foe Collision
Looks to have some fun synergy somewhere. I believe someone else has already mentioned pairing it with whirlwind attack.
Hide in Plain Sight
This should be (Su) just like the shadowdancer ability. It is practically invisibility. Vanishing just being near shadows, even in the middle of an empty room is not (Ex).
Asides from the bitterness of this still being denied a core or unchained rogue. (Unless there is a clause that lets a rogue take Stalker talents. That would make me happy and almost instantly buy this book any other problems notwithstanding).
Leave an Opening
An integral combo to the 4 full BAB attacks at level 4 Vigilante Stalker. The best mobile melee combatant Paizo released yet.
Mighty Ambush
An ability well worded to give preference to a Strength based or Dexterity based Stalker, but almost no other ability actually synergizes well with Dexterity. Making it the odd one out, but a solid ability on its own.
Mockingbird
A 0, and two 1 level spells granted unlimited use, minimum level of 4 to get. Seems useful and fun for the character that really wants it. Another solid thematic choice that characters without it can work around by using the spells.
Perfect Fall
All slow fall abilities should just be replaced with this.
Perfect Vulnerability
A standard action to hit flat footed touch ac, so usually in the 10-15 range. An almost auto hit for a standard action. I am unsure on this one. It seems to focus on the Stalker getting that initial strong burst, and combined with mighty ambush or something else debilitating on hit could be good. It would be interesting to see a build focused on it, too bad it can't work with vital strike as they are both their own actions.
Pull into the Shadows
I see every scene in a horror movie where a crowd of people are running, and creatures are pulling them into the darkness further panicking the rest of the crowd. Perhaps far more use for the GM most of the time than a player, but GMs need fun toys to.
Rogue Talent
Oh look, a class with uniquely (probably) available talents that steals all the rogue's talents without remorse. That said the Stalker can greatly benefit from access to them.
Stalker as a rogue archetype would, in fact, already have access to them.
Rooftop Infiltrator
Strictly better in every way than the Climb skill unlock. This ability is much more how it should be.
Shadow’s Sight
An easily accessible way for races without to gain darkvision without relying on spells or items to do so. Great for those that want it.
Silent Dispatch
This ability needs some way to work with Pull into the Shadows!
This ability needs to be reworded very much so. As is, it applies only to sound, and as such is nearly useless. It also runs into horrible timing problems.
Example: Surprise round Stalker acts, Guard does not. Stalker is also higher in initiative.
Surprise round: Stalker attacks Guard. Damage is not enough to drop him, and he makes his fort save against Mighty Ambush.
Round 1: Stalker acts, and successfully drops Guard unconscious from damage. Silent dispatch now kicks in because Guard was dropped before his first action in combat. Suddenly, the surprise round attack is silent also. But we do not know this until the result of Stalker's actions in the next round.
If the Stalker is unable to drop Guard in round one, then suddenly the surprise round strike wasn't silent.
Even if Guard is higher in initiative, so would go first in Round One, Stalker uses Leave an Opening. We again do not know if the first attack was silent until the start of Guards turn if Stalker can drop Guard with the attack from Leave an Opening.
My suggestion would be to require Hide in Plain Sight first. And remove the part where it only works if the target is completely taken out in the single attack. Basically, turn it into a melee version of sniping.
This does limit it a bit more, as is, it currently could work with a full attack, despite the wording referencing a single attack
Sniper
Unlimited range on sneak attack. Rogue jealous much? Especially the Sniper rogue archetype. Again, if this exists it should be a rogue talent.
Strike the Unseen
I have a character already built around getting these feats. Asides from the characters' theme, getting all 3 feats was usually weaker than spending them on something else.
I think it should exist, and perhaps shows that the Blind Fight feat chain is 2 feats too long to begin with.
Or maybe the perception skill unlock could have done it?
Surprise Strike
Static to hit bonus for a 3/4 BAB class. Generally considered a necessity to actually participate effectively in combat.
Throat Jab
Why can this affect a target only once? Perfect vulnerability I can understand. As a rider on sneak attack, preventing speaking and verbal components is potentially useful. Usable once on the same opponent every 24 hours is less useful. And makes no sense.
Twisting Fear
With Cornugon Smash, or being level 11, this is effectively +50% sneak attack damage on anything not immune to fear or subdual damage.
At level 11, Whirlwind attack + Foe Collision + Twisting Fear sounds fun. Or Cornugon Smash earlier.
Unfortunately, just the existence of Cornugon smash makes any intimidate/fear effects better for a strength based stalker.
Up Close and Personal
The other integral part of being the most mobile melee combatant ever. Combine with spring attack to safely ignore the AoO for movement. The acrobatics check doesn't even have to succeed, and then you get Spring Attack + Up Close and Personal + Leave and Opening. Or less safe at level 4 when you probably don't have the feats for spring attack and Power Attack + Cornugon Smash + Hurtful for a fourth attack, but you have AoO risk.
I really like it, but it should perhaps require the acrobatics check to be successful, and this would greatly limit it. So many creatures have disgustingly hard CMDs that it would be less likely to succeed.
The talents are pretty solid. Many of them I would take on my unchained rogue if I could. (And in my opinion the rogue should be able to).
Mort the Cleverly Named |
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Mostly because once we're already changing it, it becomes distracting noise in the playtest (whereas the first collection of times was very useful in convincing people of the point). It's precisely like if you dealt enough damage to defeat a foe but then you directed your next arrow at the dead enemy, instead of at the live one nearby. If you did not believe Jason from the interview, though, that he's already convinced to change it, then it would be worth it to continue.
Well of course people do that when the opponent doesn't fall down!
If you want people to stop mentioning it, make a big ol' sticky saying "Issues we are already addressing" with a description of how you perceive the comments. There are lots of issues, and not all of them are addressed in the interview (nor is everyone seeing it).
That is why it would be important to put, in an obvious place, an explanation in the developers own words of what has happened and what they are thinking of doing. This will allow people to continue commenting only if they have something different from the already mentioned points to add. In the ACG playtest, for example, Stephen was great at this sort of thing.