Please critique Dex based TWF build for PFS


Advice


Here's a build for a Dagger wielding Halfling I've been working on. I'd be happy for any feedback in particularly on how to continue after level 9.

Halfling Unchained Thug Rogue 4/Savage Technologist Hurler Barbarian 1/ Flying Blade Swashbuckler 1/Sentinel of Pharasma 3

Ability Score: STR 8 DEX 20(level increases here) CON 12 INT 8 WIS 11 CHA 14

Traits: River Rat (+1 damage with daggers); Deathtouched (+2 vs. mind-affecting)

1 Rogue 1 Finesse, TWF, Sneak attack 1d6
2 Rogue 2 WF (Dagger)
3 Rogue 3 Finesse Training, Sneak Attack 2d6 Brutal Beating, Deific Obedience (Pharasma)
4 Barb 1 Hurler, DEX Rage
5 Rogue 4 Extra Rage, Double Slice, Debilitating Injury
6 Flying Bladeh Panache, Parry and Riposte
7 Sentinel ITWF, Symbolic Weapon +1
8 Sentinel Risky Striker
9 Sentinel Battle Cry, Symbolic Weapon +2
10 ???
11 ???

Currently I'm a bit unsure about the level of swashbuckler which could be any other Full BAB class or a second Barbarian level.

Also do folks think quick draw would be worthwhile? Currently dagger throwing is mainly a plan b for the first round(s) of combat or flying creatures (hurler is great for this).

I really like the brutal beating ability of the Thug in conjunction with debilitating injury for some mad debuffing but I'd also consider other Rogue Archetypes.

I'd like to keep uncanny dodge due to mad high DEX however.
Any good equipment? Was thinking Furious daggers, maybe blinkback belt. Maybe some catskin armor.


Shameless Bump!


What are you gaining from the Swashbuckler dip? You already have weapon finesss and dex to damage. If you're just looking for another full BAB class, you could consider Ranger for a spell list and lots of skill points or unchained Monk for flurry.

I'm not familiar with the Hurler barbarian archetype: which book is it in? I know the Urban Barbarian gets Dex rage also, and the Unchained Barbarian just gives you +2 attack/damage without basing it one an ability score. Either of those will also work.

Uncanny dodge has nothing to do with Dex: are you thinking of Evasion?


Gwen Smith wrote:

What are you gaining from the Swashbuckler dip? You already have weapon finesss and dex to damage. If you're just looking for another full BAB class, you could consider Ranger for a spell list and lots of skill points or unchained Monk for flurry.

I'm not familiar with the Hurler barbarian archetype: which book is it in? I know the Urban Barbarian gets Dex rage also, and the Unchained Barbarian just gives you +2 attack/damage without basing it one an ability score. Either of those will also work.

Uncanny dodge has nothing to do with Dex: are you thinking of Evasion?

Uncanny Dodge means you can't be flat footed. Flat footed means you don't loose your DEX bonus to AC in the surprise round.

Hurler increases the range increment of thrown weapons by 10 ft. This increases flexibility as Switch hitting light becomes an option.

Swashbuckler grants me access to Parry and Riposte which paired with my rather stellar to hit (at level 9 with a +1 furious weapon and +4 dex belt it should be +25) should work as an additional defense despite small size. Also something I noticed yesterday after posting a 1 level of Swash + 3 levels of sentinel allows me to pick up weapon specialization at level 9. I'm not sold on it however and Ranger does have some appeal. Monk makes no sense however as I get way too much out of daggers.


Did some DPR calculations for the build at level 9 assuming two +1 furios daggers and a +4 DEX belt and weapon spec at level 9. These numbers are without haste effects. DPR calculations also indicate that piranha strike adds more damage than double slice so I might have to make some changes to feats.

Single Attack 19.2 damage
Full attack 84.8 damage
Single Attack with sneak attack 24.9 damage
Full attack with sneak attack 93.8 damage
Single Attack with risky striker 25.5 damage
Full attack with risky striker 104.9 damage
Single Attack with risky striker 6 sneak 31.4 damage
Full attack with risky striker & sneak attack 117.5 damage


Pretty sure u cant sneak in rage.

While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

On sneak you search for a little weak point and you do precision dmg.

Edit: okay forget it. The Savage technologist rage sounds in another way.


Tesailion wrote:

Pretty sure u cant sneak in rage.

Huh? Why shouldn't you? A barbarian dip for Rogues is one of the oldest tricks in the book...


Alex Mack wrote:

Did some DPR calculations for the build at level 9 assuming two +1 furios daggers and a +4 DEX belt and weapon spec at level 9. These numbers are without haste effects. DPR calculations also indicate that piranha strike adds more damage than double slice so I might have to make some changes to feats.

Single Attack 19.2 damage
Full attack 84.8 damage
Single Attack with sneak attack 24.9 damage
Full attack with sneak attack 93.8 damage
Single Attack with risky striker 25.5 damage
Full attack with risky striker 104.9 damage
Single Attack with risky striker 6 sneak 31.4 damage
Full attack with risky striker & sneak attack 117.5 damage

You cannot just look at average damage results as if you assumed every attack will hit, you have to look at likely damage against a target AC. You also need to be realistic about whether or not you will actually get to apply sneak attack. I have run plenty of 5-9 and 7-11 PFS and it gets more and more difficult to get those in as you get higher level.

For comparison sake, assuming level 9, then average AC for CR8-12 creatures is:

8: 21
9: 23
10: 24
11: 25
12: 28

You also cannot ignore your defences. What are your saves and AC looking like at this point. Dead DPS does no DPS, mind controlled DPS just gets in the bloody way.


Alex Mack wrote:
Tesailion wrote:

Pretty sure u cant sneak in rage.

Huh? Why shouldn't you? A barbarian dip for Rogues is one of the oldest tricks in the book...

Ancient history (D&D 3.0) by now, Alex Mack is right. Sneak attack isn't something that requires a concentration check or patience otherwise and can be done in a rage, normal as well as savage tech.


andreww wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:

Did some DPR calculations for the build at level 9 assuming two +1 furios daggers and a +4 DEX belt and weapon spec at level 9. These numbers are without haste effects. DPR calculations also indicate that piranha strike adds more damage than double slice so I might have to make some changes to feats.

Single Attack 19.2 damage
Full attack 84.8 damage
Single Attack with sneak attack 24.9 damage
Full attack with sneak attack 93.8 damage
Single Attack with risky striker 25.5 damage
Full attack with risky striker 104.9 damage
Single Attack with risky striker 6 sneak 31.4 damage
Full attack with risky striker & sneak attack 117.5 damage

You cannot just look at average damage results as if you assumed every attack will hit, you have to look at likely damage against a target AC. You also need to be realistic about whether or not you will actually get to apply sneak attack. I have run plenty of 5-9 and 7-11 PFS and it gets more and more difficult to get those in as you get higher level.

For comparison sake, assuming level 9, then average AC for CR8-12 creatures is:

8: 21
9: 23
10: 24
11: 25
12: 28

You also cannot ignore your defences. What are your saves and AC looking like at this point. Dead DPS does no DPS, mind controlled DPS just gets in the bloody way.

Sorry should have mentioned this was versus AC 22 and I used Tejon's DPR calculator. So first iteratives have 95% hit chance. As I neither assume large size opponents or sneak attack these values were listed seperately. As the build is not optimized for sneaking I likely won't be getting this bonus outside of flanking.

Reflex Saves are stellar (+15 or so at level 9 without items). Fort Saves are okay (+8 or so). Wil saves likely suck (+6 pre magic) so the clear ion stone spindle wayfinder seems in order.

AC really depends on what armor is available but starts at 19 only from dex modifier and size bonus (no penalty due to rage) so it shouldn't be the greatest concern... Parry and Riposte adds a layered defense.

So in short your argument seems to be I should build more for defenses? The achilles heel I see currently is Wil saves I guess battle cry is strong here as it helps DPR and defenses and the build has swift actions available. If I was worried about FORT I could also look into twist away.


I've been thinking about how to improve the builds defenses and dipping two levels of Divine Hunter Paladin instead of Swashbuckler/Barbarian might be good for this. While I lose DEX rage I get awesome saves, Lay on hands and precise shot for free. This allows me to dump WIS and go all in on CHA with irrepressible and possibly steadfast personality.

Ability Score: STR 8 DEX 20(level increases here) CON 12 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 16

Traits: River Rat (+1 damage with daggers); Irrepresible (CHA vs. mind-affecting)

1 Paladin 1 TWF, Smite Evil, Precise Shot
2 Rogue 1 Finesse, Sneak attack 1d6
3 Rogue 2 WF (Dagger), Deific Obedience
4 Rogue 3 Finesse Training, Sneak Attack 2d6, Brutal Beating, Deific Obedience (Pharasma)
5 Paladin 2 Quick Draw,
6 Rogue 4 Battle Cry, Debilitating Injury
7 Sentinel 1 ITWF, Symbolic Weapon +1
8 Sentinel 2 Bonus Feat: Risky Striker
9 Sentinel 3 Double Slice, Symbolic Weapon +2
10 Fighter 1 Weapon Specilization
11 Fighter 2 Steadfat Personality, Open Feat Slot

Notable Magic Items:
Potions of Reduce Person (super strong buff with risky striker), Blink Back Belt

Saves: FORT +10 REF +15 WIL +8 (+12 vs. mind affecting)

DPR numbers are a few points lower than for the build with the Barbarian Dip


you can't sneak attack at range unless you have the sniper archetype.

edited. my bad, it turns out you can sneak attack at range but only up to 30 feet. unless you take the sniper archetype.


So Sneak attacking is really just a side thing for this build. 0 ressources are invested in allowing for Sneak atacks, save for maxing out acrobatics to get into position to flank and sneak attacking will actually more often result in some wicked debuffs than in large amounts of extra damage.

The dagger throwing part is also only an aside which increases flexibility in the hopes that it will enable full attacks more often. Investing in Quickdraw and Precise Shot as well as a blink back belt makes this functional, however the range of the dagger as a thrown weapon is only 10 feet so I'll prolly be sucking up range soft cover penalties from time to time.

If folks know of any cheap solutions to these problems I'd be keeen to learn about them.

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