[Marsh Terrain] vs [Underwater Combat]

[Blub Blub]

Page 427 of the Core Rulebook, 'Marsh Terrain', wrote:

The water in a deep bog provides cover for Medium or larger creatures. Smaller creatures gain improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves). Medium or larger creatures can crouch as a move action to gain this improved cover. Creatures with this improved cover take a -10 penalty on attacks against creatures that aren't underwater.

Page 432 of the Core Rulebook, 'Underwater Combat', wrote:

Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Land-bound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects.

"Crouching in a bog" and "swimming on the surface of a lake" both grant the same bonuses to AC and Reflex saves, but only one lists a -10 penalty on attack rolls.

Do characters that are "swimming, floating, or treading water" suffer the same -10 attack penalty against opponents that aren't underwater?

[Blub Blub]

Furthermore, if the same penalty applies, does it stack with the penalties listed on THIS chart?

So, -12 total?

[Blub Blub]

I'm normally very anti-bumping, but I'm running a scenario tonight that involves creatures in water attacking the PCs on land, so any other voices on the matter would be appreciated.

[King of Vrock]

Good catch... I never put the two together before. Shows you can find something new every time you read through the CRB. I clicked the FAQ link just to be sure (you should too).

IMO I think they should get the -10 penalty vs land bound opponents. The -2/half damage for bludgeoning/slashing weapons I'd save for foes IN or UNDER the water only. Its a good incentive to push one side or the other into the same environment to even the battle field.

--Vrock Lobster

[Blub Blub]

It wasn't my catch. I'm of the belief that the -10 is for Marsh Terrain, hence why it's solely described in that section, whereas the cover bonuses are described in both sections.

About to run a 7-11 scenario, most likely high tier, and if the -10 applies to swimming on the surface then the BBEG will be pretty much ineffective. One of my players believes the -10 applies.