|
Alright, if you're polymorphed, and you use a polymorphic pouch in order to hold your spell components, so you still have access to it after you change shapes, how much manual dexterity do you need to use them? Could a velociraptor pull out some guano? (this is assuming you are already using still spell and a ring of eloquence in order to cast while polymorphed). since you're not actually performing the somatic components, all you need to do is pull out the material, could you even use your mouth?
What exactly would be the point f the Polymorphic Pouch if this mattered?
Officially, there is no minimum DEX requirement on using spells with somatic or material components. There is also no official collision with using your mouth to provide the verbal component and also to provide the material component.
So, if you have a DEX of 1 or higher, you can manage to make somatic components and grab material components just fine.
There is fluff text saying that you need to have the right kind of anatomy to manage spell components - you need to be capable of speech to use verbal components (so if you are, somehow, without a mouth - maybe a snail? - then you can't use verbal components) and you need at least one free hand or similar hand-like appendage to make somatic components (snakes, you are just SOL).
As for using a component pouch, none of this is stated directly, but it seems implicit that you need some means of grabbing the component you want, but I suppose even a snake could retrieve his component with his mouth.
So a raptor or any animal really can provide verbal and somatic components? assuming ring of eloquence, and that they have a component pouch ready.
Ring of Eloquence is for the Verbal components.
Component Pouch is for the Material components.The animal needs hands for somatic components, so don't be a snake or an elephant. Pick an animal that has some kind of paws/claws that might seem like it could make these kinds of gestures and you should be OK. If your GM approves.
Or rely heavily on Still Spell.
well i'd assume you'd need the ability to pick things up but that's just me...
Opposable thumbs.
Just say no to raptor spellcasters.
Who put dinos in my FRPG, anyway? <g>
This makes me wonder if you can use prestidigitation, mage hand, or telekinesis to manipulate spell components.
|
|
you could in theory, but it would take an action to concentrate on the mage hand.
Hmmm so the ability to manipulate things. so elemental forms would work. anything that can manipulate objects. so in order to use components and focus, you'd need to be able to hold it with your form. or reach in and grab it with your paws, claws, hands, etc.
I looked into it and it says on the SRD...
"To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell."
verbal components: speaking is covered by the ring of eloquence.
Somatic Components: This is more vague. "gesture" the dictionary defines it as...
"2: a movement usually of the body or limbs that expresses or emphasizes an idea, sentiment, or attitude
3: the use of motions of the limbs or body as a means of expression"
Paws, claws (including raptor claws) satisfy this definition just fine I feel. So it seems that as long as you have a body, you can do it. Even a snake's tail or a beholder's eye-stalks can do it.
Material is the rub then. For a material or focus components, if you can feasibly pull things out of a bag and manipulate them at all, you can use components.
how about somatic components?
I refer you to my previous post.
Natural spell disagrees with you there. The rules are a little murky but the intent is very clear.
Just get eschew materials for the spell component pouch anyway. Otherwise you're going to run into a lot of table variation. And by 'variation' I mean, 'not being allowed to use a spell pouch as a snake'.
|
|
That's reasonable Blackmane. I wish they used a less vague term than 'gesture' though, that makes it murky. And components, yeah, yer gonna get a lot of table variation, so eschew is important, but that doesn't let you ignore focuses as far as i know, so that's a problem. There will be forms that allow you to use somatic components, and forms that wont. Anything that could manipulate objects proficiently, I'd say could do somatic components just fine. So example, a bat maybe, since their wings and feet both are very similar to human hands. Then again, that makes for a lot of variation as well. hmmm.
I wish they used a less vague term than 'gesture' though, that makes it murky.
Nope, not murky at all. Quite clear, in fact.
Somatic Components: This is more vague. "gesture" the dictionary defines it as...
"2: a movement usually of the body or limbs that expresses or emphasizes an idea, sentiment, or attitude
3: the use of motions of the limbs or body as a means of expression"
Paws, claws (including raptor claws) satisfy this definition just fine I feel. So it seems that as long as you have a body, you can do it. Even a snake's tail or a beholder's eye-stalks can do it.
You have a dictionary. Phooey. I have a Core Rulebook and an SRD, both of which totally trump your dictionary:
Somatic (S)
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
Erm, except "hand" has never been defined in the rules as literally a hand.
Dragons don't have "hands" as humans have them. Dragons can still cast spells with Somatic components.
More to the point Naga can cast spells. They don't even have a hand-like appendage. They are literally a bigass snake with a people face.
Having a hand free merely refers to not having your appendage, whatever that appendage may be, occupied somehow (by grappling, holding an item, etc.).
|
|
You have a dictionary. Phooey. I have a Core Rulebook and an SRD, both of which totally trump your dictionary:
You also have an attitude and a lack of social graces, good for you.
Blackmane took my musings for what they were, exploration and discussion, not power gaming or munchkin gaming. I'm the bloody GM in this game, and am asking since a player is wanting to play a polymorph focused character. You could have shown your quote in a dozen different ways without it being so insulting. If you're going to be negative and insulting, please stop responding to this thread. I'm having a great conversation with others without your contributions, though thank you for the CRB quote.
So as I said above, a little more verbosely than was probably needed with my bat musing, you must have an appendage that is free (not necessarily a hand) in order to perform somatic components. See dragons and nagas as a reference.
So ring of eloquence, eschew materials, and either still spell or a form with an appendage that can be used to gesture (tail, claws, etc), will allow you to cast spells while polymorphed, in my estimation.
|
I agree that the intent is not for animal forms, generally, to be able to provide somatic components.
Dragons and nagas are not necessarily proof that you can use claws and tails, since both have innate spellcasting abilities that may be unusually suited to their anatomy (in effect, the Natural Spell feat in their natural forms) and dragon claws in particular are usually portrayed as much more dexterous than animal claws.
As a GM you are free to be lenient on this front but I personally would require opposeable thumbs or at least a limb with multiple digits - no tails or trunks.
Generally speaking you need hands or claws that are hand-like. Some creatures just get a free pass because it is the intent for them to be able to cast spells. Blink dogs are another example of this.
This makes me wonder if you can use prestidigitation, mage hand, or telekinesis to manipulate spell components.
Given that an Arcane Trickster needs a class ability to do Disable Device or Sleight of Hand at range, I would think allowing Mage Hand or the like to do fine manipulation like lifting components out of pouches should be out. If I need an ability to lift a coin out of someone else's coin pouch (even when they are unaware), why shouldn't I need that ability to lift things out of my own component pouch?
|
I can cast spells by will alone in any shape.
Deaf Oracle (so all spells Silent with no level or casting time increase)
Eschew Materials feat
Still Spell feat
Dark Tapestry Many Forms revelation for shapeshifting. When I have to use the Still Spell feat it does mean that casting times are increased, and it takes a higher spell slot.
But, I can cast most of my spells as an eagle or a deinonychus with no outward sign of casting :)
|
|
We're operating on assumptions across the board here. If the intention was for naga's to have a form of natural spell, why don't they? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I'm fine with animal forms not being able to cast somatic. It just seems very inconsistent to have some creatures with no hands able to cast, and not giving them a special ability that says they can ignore somatics. It would have made things very simple.
I personally feel that (ignoring nagas as an aberration... see what i did there?) anything that you feel could manipulate objects with his claws/paws/hands, can in fact provide somatic components. Dragons, while not possessing 'hands' per se, can manipulate objects. So most monstrous humanoids, some magical beats, primates, etc can all use somatic components I would say. The rest you'd need still spell.