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Setup - I am taking Master Craftsman feat at level 5 and Craft Magical Arms and Armor at level 7. I want to make a +1 Wounding Rapier at level 7 with 7 Ranks in Craft (weapons).
Question 1 - what is the DC for +1 Wounding Rapier at CL7?
How should I read the information on the crafting weapon special abilities?
What does the CL right next to weight in the top line of the description refer to?
Is it the exact given CL of the special ability or can I cast the required spells at a lower CL to make the CL of the special property lower?
Ex. +1 Wounding Rapier? Does it have to be a CL 10 item or can I cast the bleed spell into the +1 Rapier at say CL 7 since bleed is a 0 level spell which clerics get at CL1?
-For CL10 my DC would be 20 (5+CL10+5 for not meeting the CL10 requirement)
-For CL7 my DC would be 12 (5+CL7)
Question 2 - When deciding which CL to use when determining the DC do I take the highest between the highest single special ability CL or do I add all the special ability CL's together?
Ex. +1 Flaming and Frost weapon? Caster Level 10 or Caster Level 18?
Question 3 - If I upgrade an item in stages do I need all version of the spell for the upgrades or only the relevant versions?
Ex.1 If I make a +2 Wounding Rapier from a +1 Wounding Rapier do I still need to cast the bleed spell into the item when upgrading the enhancement bonus?
Ex.2 If I make a Bloodthirsty Rapier (Which is a +2 Wounding Rapier with a special effect and requires the spell bleed and inflict serious wounds) do I need both bleed and inflict serious wounds to be cast each day during the upgrade process going from a +2 Wounding Rapier or is just adding the inflict serious wounds spell okay?
Question 4 - If I lower the CL of an Item to say CL7 in the example above can I later upgrade the item to let's say a +5 Wounding Rapier with a CL of 20 using metamagic feats like heightened spell?
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
1) DC 15. The CL of an item is only a requirement if the requirements line includes one. The primary uses of item CL are: setting the DC to make the item; determining the item's saving throw bonuses; setting the power of level-dependent effects created by the item.
2) The highest.
3) Expect table variation, but in my opinion, the requirements are the difference in requirements between the starting item and the finished item (example one, no, you wouldn't need bleed, example 2, just inflict serious wounds).
4) As a general rule you can't lower the CL of an item unless it is a spell trigger or spell completion item, and even then the lowest you could set the CL is the minimum CL to cast the spell (or higher, if the item type has a higher requirement, such as staves).
Chemlak wrote: 1) DC 15. The CL of an item is only a requirement if the requirements line includes one. The primary uses of item CL are: setting the DC to make the item; determining the item's saving throw bonuses; setting the power of level-dependent effects created by the item.
2) The highest.
3) Expect table variation, but in my opinion, the requirements are the difference in requirements between the starting item and the finished item (example one, no, you wouldn't need bleed, example 2, just inflict serious wounds).
4) As a general rule you can't lower the CL of an item unless it is a spell trigger or spell completion item, and even then the lowest you could set the CL is the minimum CL to cast the spell (or higher, if the item type has a higher requirement, such as staves).
Chemlak, thank you for the great responses. I don't know how to personal message on these forums so I'll post a follow-up question here.
#1
Can you help me understand this information from the PRD? It seems as though this is saying the CL is a requirement and if it's not met I would need to add the +5 to the DC.
Quote: Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities. #4
From the FAQ it looks like maybe I could apply this information they used for the Pearl of Power to a weapon in the same way to alter the CL of the weapon which is normally the higher special ability bonus CL. Does this seem reasonable or no?
Like in my example of setting a +1 Wounding Rapier to CL7 by casting bleed into it at CL7?
Quote: Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
All of Chemlak's answers were correct, except the part about not being able to lower the CL of the item - I'm pretty sure you can lower it if you want to, to the minimum level needed to cast the spell.
Here are answers to your follow up questions:
Silverghost wrote: Can you help me understand this information from the PRD? It seems as though this is saying the CL is a requirement and if it's not met I would need to add the +5 to the DC. Caster Level is almost never a requirement. Look at 20 random magic items and you probably won't find any that have a required CL. The few that do are armor, weapons, and a couple wondrous items like the Amulet of Mighty Fists (usually, but not always, the items that duplicate effects of armor and weapons).
For CL to be a requirement, it must be listed at the bottom of the magic item description under the "Construction Requirements". If it is not listed there, then CL is not a requirement at all.
For your rapier of wounding, you could create it at a CL of 3 (the lowest level to cast the Bleed spell is 1, but you must use CL3 to make a +1 weapon, so your minimum CL is the highest of the two). There are no consequences for doing so (for example, the DC to avoid the bleed is still 15) other than the fact that your rapier would be easier to dispel.
The benefit, of course, is that the DC to craft the weapon would be only 8, hopefully that's automatic for you (especially if you Take-10).
Silverghost wrote: From the FAQ it looks like maybe I could apply this information they used for the Pearl of Power to a weapon in the same way to alter the CL of the weapon which is normally the higher special ability bonus CL. Does this seem reasonable or no?
Like in my example of setting a +1 Wounding Rapier to CL7 by casting bleed into it at CL7?
You don't even need to do that. You could set the CL to 20 if you want, and you don't need to cast a level 20 Bleed spell - you just decide while you make it that you want it to be CL 20. The DC to craft it will be 25, which might run a risk of failure (maybe even a cursed weapon), but then your Rapier of Wounding would be twice as hard to dispel as a normal one.
Thank you for your response DM_Blake
Okay so on this page of the PRD. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html Under the heading "Creating Magic Weapons" about half way down the page where it says Quote: Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities. That does not add +5 DC even though it's a special added prerequisite for creating weapons and armor?
Just found this on the FAQ here. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qbz
Quote:
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
You're right, the final CL of the weapon must be 3x the enhancement bonus of the weapon. Your proposed +1 rapier of wounding has an enhancement bonus of +1. 1 x 3 = 3, so your CL must be 3 and the minimum CL of the weapon must be 3. Which corresponds to what I said in my previous post.
If you skip THAT requirement, then you add +5 to the DC because it is a requirement. (I neglected to mention that part in my previous post).
The easiest way to do it is to determine what the total CL of the weapon will be (the version in the book is CL 7 because that is the highest of the CL3 and CL7 generic values), but you can choose any CL you want.
Technically, each portion of the weapon (the +1 enhancement bonus and the Wounding ability) really has its own CL that you pick. Each can be anything from 1 to 20 but has to be high enough to cast the spell you use (CR 1 is high enough for both spells here). Then you take the highest of the two CLs and that becomes the CL for the entire weapon and the CL you use for the Spellcraft check at the end.
Note: it is the final CL (the total CL of the weapon) that sets the CL for BOTH the enhancement AND the Wounding - the weapon only has one CL. So, for example, you could be weird and say the enhancement has CL 1 and the Wounding has CL 5, but if you do, the weapon gets a total CL 5, the Spellcraft DC is 10, and since 5 is higher than the requirement of 3, you are not skipping any requirements so no penalty on the spellcraft check. Weird, but that's how it works.
It just makes more sense to set BOTH abilities at the minimum level you want the entire weapon to be, since that how it will end up working anyway. So if you want YOUR rapier to be CL 5, then the enhancement bonus is CL 5 (high enough) and the Wounding is CL 5 (meh) and the entire weapon is CL 5.
You could also set both caster levels at 1 if you want, but if you do, then you take that penalty for skipping the requirement that it must be at least CL 3 so the Spellcraft check will be 11 (5 + CL 1 + the 5 penalty for skipping the requirement). It turns out, in this case, you might as well set the CL to 3 so the final roll is just an 8 (5 + CL 3). The Spellcraft check will be easier and the weapon will be a little harder to dispel.
(edited for clarity)
DM_Blake thanks again for the detailed response. Your 1st reply makes a lot more sense to me now. So this is what I understand now from the responses.
1) So the CL at the top of a Special Ability is an arbitrary CL and doesn't count towards the special crafting rule for weapons since the Special Ability doesn't list the CL as part of the requirements line at the bottom.
2) When creating an item I can choose an CL I want and if my character meets that CL then I use the CL for determining the DC of creating the item and for dispelling the magic in the item. If my character does not meet that CL then I add +5 to the DC to create the item but I can still pick any CL I want.
3) If I want to start an item off at a low CL and then later upgrade the item by adding more effects I can change the CL to a higher CL when I upgrade the item.
Ex. +1 Rapier of Wounding, set to CL7 - DC 12 to craft it if my CL is 7 or more. Upgrade the +1 Rapier of Wounding CL7 to +3 Keen Rapier of Wounding Speed CL20 and the DC would be 25 if my CL is 20 or DC 30 if my CL is lower than 20.
All that sound right as a recap?
Most of your recap is correct except this:
Silverghost wrote: 2) When creating an item I can choose an CL I want and if my character meets that CL then I use the CL for determining the DC of creating the item and for dispelling the magic in the item. If my character does not meet that CL then I add +5 to the DC to create the item but I can still pick any CL I want. Your character does not need to meet that CL.
When CL is not a requirement, you can choose any CL you want with no restriction EXCEPT that it must be an appropriate CL for casting the spell. For example, Fireball is a 3rd level spell which requires a level 5 wizard to cast (maybe be different for other classes but we'll stick with wizard for this example), so if you are a wizard making an item that uses Fireball as the spell requirement, then the minimum CL must be 5 because that is the minimum CL required for you to cast Fireball. If you're a 7th level wizard, you can set the CL of your item to 5, 6, 7, 8, ... 18, 19, or 20. Any CL you want except 4 or lower because that is too low to cast Fireball.
In the case of your +1 rapier of Wounding, the minimum CL is 1 because the spell you need, Bleed can be cast by level 1 spellcasters.
In your example of the upgraded +3 Keen rapier of Wounding, the Requirement is CL 9 for the +3 enhancement bonus. It still requires Bleed (CL1), but now it requires Keen Edge (CL5). Both of those are lower than 9, so if you set the CL at 9 you cover all of it. You could go as low as 5 to match the highest of the spells, but then you must add +5 to the Spellcraft DC for failing to meet the CL requirement of 9.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thanks for picking up the ball on this one, DM_Blake. Looks like I was oversimplifying for question 4 (I was slightly rushed).
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